GRHE question

[riverman]

Whoda thunk a question about such an easy fly...

I was tying some up last night, size 12-18, and I could not get the bodies
on the smaller ones to be compact enough. The hare fur was all spikey and
made them rather bulbous rather than that 'nymph' shape that they should be.
How do you get hare's ear to behave? If I tried cutting the fur down to tiny
little pieces, it wouldn't dub so well (even with wax), but if I left it
long, the rogue hairs made the fly look like a food pellet instead of a
nymph. I eventually just used 80% synthetic dubbing with some pieces of
hare's ear, and wrapped the heck out of it.

And exactly where on the mask should I be harvesting fur for these? I guess
I'm not sure what the different parts of the mask are called. Even the ear
has at least 4 different qualities of fur (inside, on the rim, the tip and
the base).

--riverman

[Tim J.]

riverman wrote:
> Whoda thunk a question about such an easy fly...
>
> I was tying some up last night, size 12-18, and I could not get the
> bodies on the smaller ones to be compact enough. The hare fur was all
> spikey and made them rather bulbous rather than that 'nymph' shape
> that they should be. How do you get hare's ear to behave? If I tried
> cutting the fur down to tiny little pieces, it wouldn't dub so well
> (even with wax), but if I left it long, the rogue hairs made the fly
> look like a food pellet instead of a nymph. I eventually just used
> 80% synthetic dubbing with some pieces of hare's ear, and wrapped the
> heck out of it.

My guess (and from personal experience) is you're cutting the hair too
long. I was cutting the hair at the very base and causing the bulbous
effect you mentioned.

> And exactly where on the mask should I be harvesting fur for these? I
> guess I'm not sure what the different parts of the mask are called.
> Even the ear has at least 4 different qualities of fur (inside, on
> the rim, the tip and the base).

I was taught to use the soft shorter stuff right at the base of the ear.
For a "spikier" look, I use the coarser hair, especially at the thorax.
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

[riverman]

"Tim J." > wrote in message
...
> riverman wrote:
>> And exactly where on the mask should I be harvesting fur for these? I
>> guess I'm not sure what the different parts of the mask are called.
>> Even the ear has at least 4 different qualities of fur (inside, on
>> the rim, the tip and the base).
>
> I was taught to use the soft shorter stuff right at the base of the ear.
> For a "spikier" look, I use the coarser hair, especially at the thorax.
> --

I wonder if there's a link out there with a sketch of a hare's mask, and
sections marked out (like one of those butcher's guides for steaks, yum)
that name the regions and the properties for each, as well as which flies
those particular hairs are good for. Anyone? MC?

--riverman

[Charlie Choc]

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:56:06 +0100, "riverman" > wrote:

>I wonder if there's a link out there with a sketch of a hare's mask, and
>sections marked out (like one of those butcher's guides for steaks, yum)
>that name the regions and the properties for each, as well as which flies
>those particular hairs are good for. Anyone? MC?
>
Try Google, it found this right away: http://www.flyfield.com/hare2.htm
--
Charlie...

[Charlie Choc]

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:56:06 +0100, "riverman" > wrote:

>I wonder if there's a link out there with a sketch of a hare's mask, and
>sections marked out (like one of those butcher's guides for steaks, yum)
>that name the regions and the properties for each, as well as which flies
>those particular hairs are good for. Anyone? MC?
>
Try Google, it found this right away: http://www.flyfield.com/hare2.htm
--
Charlie...

[Dave LaCourse]

Riverman writes:

>I wonder if there's a link out there with a sketch of a hare's mask, and
>sections marked out (like one of those butcher's guides for steaks, yum)
>that name the regions and the properties for each, as well as which flies
>those particular hairs are good for. Anyone? MC?
>
>--riverman

For smaller flies, I don't use the hare's fur, but dubbing. I tie grhe down to
size 22 and do not use the fur. There is a lot of dubbing out there that could
be used. I use Hareline Dubbin and the fish don't seem to mind.

I also tie PTs using just brown thread and the gold wire rib. They have worked
*very* well on my Maine waters.

Dave

[Dave LaCourse]

Riverman writes:

>I wonder if there's a link out there with a sketch of a hare's mask, and
>sections marked out (like one of those butcher's guides for steaks, yum)
>that name the regions and the properties for each, as well as which flies
>those particular hairs are good for. Anyone? MC?
>
>--riverman

For smaller flies, I don't use the hare's fur, but dubbing. I tie grhe down to
size 22 and do not use the fur. There is a lot of dubbing out there that could
be used. I use Hareline Dubbin and the fish don't seem to mind.

I also tie PTs using just brown thread and the gold wire rib. They have worked
*very* well on my Maine waters.

Dave

[riverman]

"Charlie Choc" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:56:06 +0100, "riverman" > wrote:
>
>>I wonder if there's a link out there with a sketch of a hare's mask, and
>>sections marked out (like one of those butcher's guides for steaks, yum)
>>that name the regions and the properties for each, as well as which flies
>>those particular hairs are good for. Anyone? MC?
>>
> Try Google, it found this right away: http://www.flyfield.com/hare2.htm
> --
> Charlie...

I tip my hat to you. I looked for 20 minutes.

--riverman

[riverman]

"Charlie Choc" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:56:06 +0100, "riverman" > wrote:
>
>>I wonder if there's a link out there with a sketch of a hare's mask, and
>>sections marked out (like one of those butcher's guides for steaks, yum)
>>that name the regions and the properties for each, as well as which flies
>>those particular hairs are good for. Anyone? MC?
>>
> Try Google, it found this right away: http://www.flyfield.com/hare2.htm
> --
> Charlie...

I tip my hat to you. I looked for 20 minutes.

--riverman

[Mike O'Neil]

riverman wrote:

> "Tim J." > wrote in message
> ...
> > riverman wrote:
> >> And exactly where on the mask should I be harvesting fur for these? I
> >> guess I'm not sure what the different parts of the mask are called.
> >> Even the ear has at least 4 different qualities of fur (inside, on
> >> the rim, the tip and the base).
> >
> > I was taught to use the soft shorter stuff right at the base of the ear.
> > For a "spikier" look, I use the coarser hair, especially at the thorax.
> > --
>
> I wonder if there's a link out there with a sketch of a hare's mask, and
> sections marked out (like one of those butcher's guides for steaks, yum)
> that name the regions and the properties for each, as well as which flies
> those particular hairs are good for. Anyone? MC?
>
> --riverman

check out http://www.flyfield.com/hare2.htm

mike o in knoxville
--
-----------------------------------------------
Mike O'Neil
Statistical Consulting Center
200 Stokely Management Center
University of Tennessee
Knoxville, TN 37916

865-974-8333

[Larry L]

"riverman" > wrote

The hare fur was all spikey and
> made them rather bulbous

After years of tying I recently learned a new trick ( for this old dog )
For best slimness and control over dubbing, don't make a big effort to spin
it on the thread before starting to wrap. Just get it started and then the
first bit caught on the hook. Then as each wrap is completed use your
materials hand to tighten the noodle before the next wrap. This trick,
courtesy of a Rene Harrop video, makes it possible to dub MUCH tighter and
slimmer noodles and sculpt far nicer bodies, regardless of dubbing used.

FWIW, I have pretty much abandoned the GRHE and have replaced it in my box
of generic "could be most anything" ties with the Dave's Fox Squirrel ....
just seems to work better for me. I use a blend of natural belly fur and
synthetic antron blend the same color for the abdomen, and on smaller sizes
I usually pluck out most the guard hairs from the back fur used on the
thorax to help keep it from getting too spikey and large, leaving only a few
for "legs" and trying, always trying, to remember that "sparse = better"
.... as close to a truism as I can think of in fly tying and fishing

[Charlie Choc]

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:17:11 +0100, "riverman" > wrote:

>I tip my hat to you. I looked for 20 minutes.
>
Search on "hare's mask", it's the 3rd from the top.
--
Charlie...

[Mike Connor]

"riverman" > wrote in message
...
<SNIP>
> I wonder if there's a link out there with a sketch of a hare's mask, and
> sections marked out (like one of those butcher's guides for steaks, yum)
> that name the regions and the properties for each, as well as which flies
> those particular hairs are good for. Anyone? MC?
>
> --riverman
>
>

http://www.flyfield.com/hare2.htm

for small flies, and if you want a smoother body, ( i.e softer hair which is
easily tapered etc) then use rabbit, or hare body fur. For very fine
dubbing, use rat or mouse.

Here are some other tips;
http://www.sexyloops.com/connorsmetre/grayling5.shtml

TL
MC

[riverman]

"Charlie Choc" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:17:11 +0100, "riverman" > wrote:
>
>>I tip my hat to you. I looked for 20 minutes.
>>
> Search on "hare's mask", it's the 3rd from the top.
> --
> Charlie...

D'oh. I searched under ""Hare's Mask" sections", ""What are guard hairs",
""What are" hare's mask", ""Hare's mask" image" and "using hare's mask".

--riverman

[Mike Connor]

"riverman" > wrote in message
...
<SNIP>
.. I searched under ""Hare's Mask" sections", ""What are guard hairs",
> ""What are" hare's mask", ""Hare's mask" image" and "using hare's mask".
>
> --riverman
>
>

There is quite a bit of confusion about some of these things. "Guard hairs"
are the long hairs on an animal where the tips usually extend beyond the
underfur. Some animals don´t have them as such. ( Mole is one example), the
underfur is the woolly mat close to the skin. Some animals may not have this
either, or only at certain places on the body.

For some dubbing the guard hairs are used, for some the underfur is used,
and for some a mix is preferred. The dubbing qualities, and the results,
are directly related to the length, texture, and mix of the hair in use. The
dubbing technique also affects the results considerably. This is an
extensive subject, and it takes quite a while to become more or less au fait
with a lot of the ramifications.

TL
MC

[riverman]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> This is an
> extensive subject, and it takes quite a while to become more or less au
> fait
> with a lot of the ramifications.
>

I suspect it will take quite a while just to understand that last sentence.
<bseg>

--riverman

[riverman]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> This is an
> extensive subject, and it takes quite a while to become more or less au
> fait
> with a lot of the ramifications.
>

I suspect it will take quite a while just to understand that last sentence.
<bseg>

--riverman

[-- Rob]

>I also tie PTs using just brown thread and the gold wire rib. They have
>worked
>*very* well on my Maine waters.
>
>Dave

that is an *excellent* suggestion... I know of some who tie small bwo's (just
using olive thread) but hadn't heard of PTs tied that way...
-- so much fishing, so little time --
--please remuv the 'NOWAY2it' from my email addy to email me--

[Neko]

On 16 Oct 2004 03:01:12 GMT, (-- Rob)
wrote...:

> >I also tie PTs using just brown thread and the gold wire rib. They have
> >worked
> >*very* well on my Maine waters.
> >
> >Dave
>
> that is an *excellent* suggestion... I know of some who tie small bwo's (just
> using olive thread) but hadn't heard of PTs tied that way...

Sounds like Rob's tying Clyde style. Many of the flies only use thread
for the body.

> -- so much fishing, so little time --
> --please remuv the 'NOWAY2it' from my email addy to email me--

John
"When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail."
-- Abraham Maslow

[Neko]

On 16 Oct 2004 03:01:12 GMT, (-- Rob)
wrote...:

> >I also tie PTs using just brown thread and the gold wire rib. They have
> >worked
> >*very* well on my Maine waters.
> >
> >Dave
>
> that is an *excellent* suggestion... I know of some who tie small bwo's (just
> using olive thread) but hadn't heard of PTs tied that way...

Sounds like Rob's tying Clyde style. Many of the flies only use thread
for the body.

> -- so much fishing, so little time --
> --please remuv the 'NOWAY2it' from my email addy to email me--

John
"When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail."
-- Abraham Maslow

[Lazarus Cooke]

I've always thought of this as one of those flies that *ought* to look
pretty ragged - the more ragged the better, in my view.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

[Lazarus Cooke]

I've always thought of this as one of those flies that *ought* to look
pretty ragged - the more ragged the better, in my view.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

[Mike Connor]

"Lazarus Cooke" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I've always thought of this as one of those flies that *ought* to look
> pretty ragged - the more ragged the better, in my view.
>
> Lazarus
>
> --
> Remover the rock from the email address

Indeed. There are quite a few flies that do better the more ragged and tatty
they are. It is however very difficult to convince people to tie them like
that!

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

"Lazarus Cooke" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I've always thought of this as one of those flies that *ought* to look
> pretty ragged - the more ragged the better, in my view.
>
> Lazarus
>
> --
> Remover the rock from the email address

Indeed. There are quite a few flies that do better the more ragged and tatty
they are. It is however very difficult to convince people to tie them like
that!

TL
MC

[Scott Seidman]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in
:

> Indeed. There are quite a few flies that do better the more ragged and
> tatty they are. It is however very difficult to convince people to
> tie them like that!
>
> TL
> MC
>
>
>

It's much more fun to tie them neat, and fish them to a state of ragged
effectiveness.

Scott

[Scott Seidman]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in
:

> Indeed. There are quite a few flies that do better the more ragged and
> tatty they are. It is however very difficult to convince people to
> tie them like that!
>
> TL
> MC
>
>
>

It's much more fun to tie them neat, and fish them to a state of ragged
effectiveness.

Scott

[Neko]

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:02:05 +0100, Lazarus Cooke
> wrote...:

>
> I've always thought of this as one of those flies that *ought* to look
> pretty ragged - the more ragged the better, in my view.
>
what's more important... the trout's view too. :-)


John
"When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail."
-- Abraham Maslow

[Neko]

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:02:05 +0100, Lazarus Cooke
> wrote...:

>
> I've always thought of this as one of those flies that *ought* to look
> pretty ragged - the more ragged the better, in my view.
>
what's more important... the trout's view too. :-)


John
"When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail."
-- Abraham Maslow

[Big Dale]

Lazarus wrote:>I've always thought of this as one of those flies that *ought*
to look
>pretty ragged - the more ragged the better, in my view.
>

I have always thought that this is an excellent fly for the beginner to tie
because if it is tied pretty, you did it wrong. get them used to flies that
catch some fish for them first and then teach them to tie pretty flies.

Big Dale

[Big Dale]

Lazarus wrote:>I've always thought of this as one of those flies that *ought*
to look
>pretty ragged - the more ragged the better, in my view.
>

I have always thought that this is an excellent fly for the beginner to tie
because if it is tied pretty, you did it wrong. get them used to flies that
catch some fish for them first and then teach them to tie pretty flies.

Big Dale

[MichaelM]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...

>
> for small flies, and if you want a smoother body, ( i.e softer hair which
is
> easily tapered etc) then use rabbit, or hare body fur. For very fine
> dubbing, use rat or mouse.
>


Rabbit fur is one of my favourites. Bluey underfur for dun bodies and the
guard hairs for the grhe-effect. Whilst in principle I'd say rat fur should
be quite good, I would probably never ever find out for sure!