adg fly rods and reels??

[steve sullivan]

Anyone familiar with them? I have bought 2 adg 6/7/8 reels (retail
$240), a adg titanium 7/8 rod (retail $900,), adg custom sized weighters
(retail $329)

They are all very good quality wise. I like the reels as much as I like
my hardy lrh.

What are people's opinion of them? While they are great products, the
warranty's are very discouraging.

My $200 plus reel's warranty card says :
UNCONDITIONAL WARRANTY. If any part of the reel fails to perform for
any reason, send it to us for repair with your address, receipt, and
registration copy, and $9.50 for shipping and handling.

Ok, you buy a $240 reel and they will fix it for ANY REASON for just
$9.50. But wait, after you have had your product a while you find out
they dont like just getting $9.50, so after the fact they are changing
your unconditional warranty to charging you $69.

This reel is as well built as my hardy, so I am not that concerned
My $450(on sale)rod says it has a unconditional lifetime warranty, for
$49 they will fix it or send you a new one. Apparently they are now
changing it to $100. I have not confirmed that but I will almost
certainly take it back if this is true. When one buys a rod that
retails for $900 and it has a uncondtional warranty, having to pay $100
if anything happens is insane.

Have any of the other companys changed the pricing of warranty AFTER THE
FACT? Because ADG has no qualms about retroactively changing the
warranty.

Adg are AWESOME PRODUCTS. In my opinion their warranty is insane. You
get the old bait and switch. You get a unconditional warranty with your
$250 reel that they will fix it for $9.95 and they then change it on you
to $70. Your $450 rod (retails for $900) they decide to change your
warranty from $49 to $98.

What are good rods in 8/9 weight that are titanium, and what is the
warranty?

Adg products are very good products, but their thinking they can change
the costs of a warranty after the fact greatly sully the company

[Mu Young Lee]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, steve sullivan wrote:

> When one buys a rod that retails for $900 and it has a uncondtional
> warranty, having to pay $100 if anything happens is insane.

Buying a rod for $900 is insane (BTW I might be insane).

The very idea of an unconditional warranty is insane (or more likely
economically untenable).

Paying $100 for the labor and material required to fix any high quality
rod is reasonable.

Mu

[daytripper]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:29:13 -0500, Mu Young Lee > wrote:

>On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, steve sullivan wrote:
>
>> When one buys a rod that retails for $900 and it has a uncondtional
>> warranty, having to pay $100 if anything happens is insane.
>
>Buying a rod for $900 is insane (BTW I might be insane).
>
>The very idea of an unconditional warranty is insane (or more likely
>economically untenable).
>
>Paying $100 for the labor and material required to fix any high quality
>rod is reasonable.
>
>Mu

I'm still struggling with the "titanium" fly rods...

/daytripper (what's up with that?)

[rw]

daytripper wrote:
>
> I'm still struggling with the "titanium" fly rods...
>
> /daytripper (what's up with that?)

As I understand it, they're titanium/graphite composites.

It's probably about 90% hype, aimed at high-tech gears whore who need
the latest and greatest (and most expensive) thing, but titanium
composited with graphite has some excellent properties for fly rods,
including lighter weight and/or greater strength (take your pick). The
material has been used in tennis rackets and golf clubs for years, and
it's increasingly being used in airplanes.

I'm not going out to buy a titanium rod any time soon, but I'm willing
to believe it might someday become the standard for high-end rods.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[daytripper]

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:00:33 GMT, rw > wrote:

>daytripper wrote:
>>
>> I'm still struggling with the "titanium" fly rods...
>>
>> /daytripper (what's up with that?)
>
>As I understand it, they're titanium/graphite composites.
>
>It's probably about 90% hype, aimed at high-tech gears whore who need
>the latest and greatest (and most expensive) thing, but titanium
>composited with graphite has some excellent properties for fly rods,
>including lighter weight and/or greater strength (take your pick). The
>material has been used in tennis rackets and golf clubs for years, and
>it's increasingly being used in airplanes.
>
>I'm not going out to buy a titanium rod any time soon, but I'm willing
>to believe it might someday become the standard for high-end rods.

I assume it's *at least* 90% hype ;-)

Does titanium offer any advantages over, say, boron, in a fly rod?

[rw]

daytripper wrote:
>
> Does titanium offer any advantages over, say, boron, in a fly rod?

Yes.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[Wayne Knight]

"steve sullivan" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone familiar with them? I have bought 2 adg 6/7/8 reels (retail
> $240), a adg titanium 7/8 rod (retail $900,), adg custom sized weighters
> (retail $329)
>

Not to be contrary, but since you have bought 2 reels, one rod, and waders
(not sure I want to be wading a big bruising river wearing weighters)
obviously you liked them and said such. What does it matter what the rest of
us think of them? and why should you care if we like them or not.

Assuming you came by the money legally, and did not use the mortgage or
grocery money to buy the stuff, your use of the stuff and what you paid for
it are your own business.

Warranties change from lots of companies. If one business model doesn't
work and then you try something else or close. Personally, IMO, any
"uncoditional" warranty involving anything more than a shipping charge is
not an unconditional warranty. Regardless you can run your reel over with a
truck and still get a new one for $9, $49, or $100. Seems to me you still
come out a head.

While it doesn' t mean anything, I've not heard of adg products except here.
But allow me to give you your first economics lesson. If your retail $900
rod, sells for $450, then bubba your rod retails for $450.

Wayne
who can see a $900 rod, if made by a master like Tom Morgan or if the blank
consist of Tonkin Cane.

[[email protected]]

Other rod and blank companies have used the titanium hype, They mix a little
titanium fairy dust in the resin and we're all supposed to beat a path to
their door. The old sales adage still applies, if it's "Improved" the price
just went up, if it's "New and Improved" it just doubled.

[Kevin Vang]

In article <Pine.SOL.4.58.0312041611390.24827
@timepilot.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>, says...
> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, steve sullivan wrote:
>
> > When one buys a rod that retails for $900 and it has a uncondtional
> > warranty, having to pay $100 if anything happens is insane.
>
> Buying a rod for $900 is insane (BTW I might be insane).
>
> The very idea of an unconditional warranty is insane (or more likely
> economically untenable).
>
> Paying $100 for the labor and material required to fix any high quality
> rod is reasonable.


That's pretty much what you're doing though. The rod company is just
charging you up front for the cost of the replacement rod(s) that they
assume you will need someday.

For the math/statistics geeks in the audience, define a random variable
X = cost of servicing the warranty on a rod (which might involve some
complicated formulas to account for the time value of the money involved
and interest rates and such) and find the probability distribution for
X, which I will assume will be based on the Poisson distribution, and
then add the expected value E(X) onto the purchase price of the rod.

In other words, you aren't just paying for the rod, you are also paying
the premium on a lifetime insurance policy against breakage. It might
be nice if the rod companies would itemize the costs, and give the buyer
the option of not paying the insurance premium, or to pay a lower
premium in return for applying a deductible on any damage claims.

Kevin

[JR]

Kevin Vang wrote:
>
> In other words, you aren't just paying for the rod, you are also paying
> the premium on a lifetime insurance policy against breakage. It might
> be nice if the rod companies would itemize the costs, and give the buyer
> the option of not paying the insurance premium, or to pay a lower
> premium in return for applying a deductible on any damage claims.

This may be what the makers of high-end rods will do (offer the warranty
as a point-of-sale option), rather than drop the unconditional warranty
altogether. How much would you be willing to pay for a SAGE SLT or a
Winston LT with no warranty?

JR

[Bill Kiene]

Who is "adg"? I have no idea?

Anyone who wants to can have their own brand name fly rods made over seas
now.

When ever I buy anything, I like to recognize the name even if it is
"Hyundai".
--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com

"steve sullivan" > wrote in message
...

> Anyone familiar with them? I have bought 2 adg 6/7/8 reels (retail
> $240), a adg titanium 7/8 rod (retail $900,), adg custom sized weighters
> (retail $329)
>
> They are all very good quality wise. I like the reels as much as I like
> my hardy lrh.
>
> What are people's opinion of them? While they are great products, the
> warranty's are very discouraging.
>
> My $200 plus reel's warranty card says :
> UNCONDITIONAL WARRANTY. If any part of the reel fails to perform for
> any reason, send it to us for repair with your address, receipt, and
> registration copy, and $9.50 for shipping and handling.
>
> Ok, you buy a $240 reel and they will fix it for ANY REASON for just
> $9.50. But wait, after you have had your product a while you find out
> they dont like just getting $9.50, so after the fact they are changing
> your unconditional warranty to charging you $69.
>
> This reel is as well built as my hardy, so I am not that concerned
> My $450(on sale)rod says it has a unconditional lifetime warranty, for
> $49 they will fix it or send you a new one. Apparently they are now
> changing it to $100. I have not confirmed that but I will almost
> certainly take it back if this is true. When one buys a rod that
> retails for $900 and it has a uncondtional warranty, having to pay $100
> if anything happens is insane.
>
> Have any of the other companys changed the pricing of warranty AFTER THE
> FACT? Because ADG has no qualms about retroactively changing the
> warranty.
>
> Adg are AWESOME PRODUCTS. In my opinion their warranty is insane. You
> get the old bait and switch. You get a unconditional warranty with your
> $250 reel that they will fix it for $9.95 and they then change it on you
> to $70. Your $450 rod (retails for $900) they decide to change your
> warranty from $49 to $98.
>
> What are good rods in 8/9 weight that are titanium, and what is the
> warranty?
>
> Adg products are very good products, but their thinking they can change
> the costs of a warranty after the fact greatly sully the company

[steve sullivan]

In article >,
"Bill Kiene" > wrote:

> Who is "adg"? I have no idea?
>
> Anyone who wants to can have their own brand name fly rods made over seas
> now.
>
> When ever I buy anything, I like to recognize the name even if it is
> "Hyundai".

Well go to www.adgfish.com and you will see. Their rods are used by
casting champions and the tape they use on their waders is wanted by all
the wader makers including simms.

[Mu Young Lee]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Kevin Vang wrote:
>
> In other words, you aren't just paying for the rod, you are also paying
> the premium on a lifetime insurance policy against breakage.

Yo, Professor V.

Up your nose widda rubber hose

Vinny Barbarino

Seriously though. Weren't the premium rods $500 before they instituted
these ridiculous warranties? The price didn;t go up did they? Or maybe
the cost of insurance amounted to only $10-$50 per rod.

Mu

[Kevin Vang]

In article mich.edu>,
says...
>
> Seriously though. Weren't the premium rods $500 before they instituted
> these ridiculous warranties? The price didn;t go up did they? Or maybe
> the cost of insurance amounted to only $10-$50 per rod.


Just looking at the Kauffmans website (http://www.kman.com/rods.htm) as
a typical example, the top end of price range for Sage, Winston, Powell,
and Hardy rods is around $750.

My guess is that the cost of the insurance, er, warranty, is fairly
negligible. There is a segment of the market which is willing to cough
up $700 bucks for a fly rod (and a fairly large segment, at that,
apparently) and if offering an extravagant warranty is what it takes
to get a share of that market, then that is what the rod companies
will offer.

Somewhere out there, there has to be somebody who would pay $100,000 for
a fly rod if a replacement rod could be hand delivered in under an hour
by Reese Witherspoon. Yo Bill, there is an under-served market segment
out there for you!

Kevin
Note to Mu: Off my case, toilet face!

[ezflyfisher]

Bill Kiene wrote:
> Who is "adg"? I have no idea?

bill, same thing i thought... too damn bad we didn't think of it. a
brilliant marketing ploy of kpos,,,,,, 150 clams max, fly rods fer 400
smackers..... but gawdamn, ya saved 500 bucks... what a deal!

my take is that sullivan is a shill.... or the biggest fool ever to wade
these roffian waters...

wally

[ezflyfisher]

steve sullivan wrote:

> In article >,
> "Bill Kiene" > wrote:
>
>
>>Who is "adg"? I have no idea?
>>
>>Anyone who wants to can have their own brand name fly rods made over seas
>>now.
>>
>>When ever I buy anything, I like to recognize the name even if it is
>>"Hyundai".
>
>
> Well go to www.adgfish.com and you will see. Their rods are used by
> casting champions and the tape they use on their waders is wanted by all
> the wader makers including simms.


you are a fool.

waldo

[daytripper]

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:42:39 +0100, JR > wrote:

>Kevin Vang wrote:
>>
>> In other words, you aren't just paying for the rod, you are also paying
>> the premium on a lifetime insurance policy against breakage. It might
>> be nice if the rod companies would itemize the costs, and give the buyer
>> the option of not paying the insurance premium, or to pay a lower
>> premium in return for applying a deductible on any damage claims.
>
>This may be what the makers of high-end rods will do (offer the warranty
>as a point-of-sale option), rather than drop the unconditional warranty
>altogether. How much would you be willing to pay for a SAGE SLT or a
>Winston LT with no warranty?

This is an excellent question and cuts to the bone. I'd go $300 tops without a
warranty - and I have several rods that indeed were purchased over the years
at that price point and without any automagic repair/replacement coverage.

More than that and still without some form of coverage I'd first have to
seriously inflict damage on myownself.

/daytripper (can't have that. nope...)

[daytripper]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:06:21 -0600, Kevin Vang > wrote:
[snipped]
>Somewhere out there, there has to be somebody who would pay $100,000 for
>a fly rod if a replacement rod could be hand delivered in under an hour
>by Reese Witherspoon. Yo Bill, there is an under-served market segment
>out there for you!
>
>Kevin
>Note to Mu: Off my case, toilet face!

"Reese Witherspoon"?? Kinky - in a "lets pretend you're only 15" sort of way.

For that kind of money you could do WAY better, I'm sure.

/daytripper (I'm thinking Gwen Stefani. Mmmmmm. ;-)

[Wolfgang]

"Greg Pavlov" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 02:05:32 GMT, ezflyfisher
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >my take is that sullivan is a shill.... or the biggest fool ever to wade
> >these roffian waters...
>
>
> Actually, I thought that his post was meant to be
> sarcasm.

Doesn't necessarily preclude his being a fool and/or a shill......nor do any
of his contributions here thus far, for that matter.

Wolfgang

[steve sullivan]

In article >,
ezflyfisher > wrote:

>
>
> steve sullivan wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > "Bill Kiene" > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Who is "adg"? I have no idea?
> >>
> >>Anyone who wants to can have their own brand name fly rods made over seas
> >>now.
> >>
> >>When ever I buy anything, I like to recognize the name even if it is
> >>"Hyundai".
> >
> >
> > Well go to www.adgfish.com and you will see. Their rods are used by
> > casting champions and the tape they use on their waders is wanted by all
> > the wader makers including simms.
>
>
> you are a fool.

I am not a fool. I may be ignorant, but I am not a fool. What am I
ignorant about?

[ezflyfisher]

steve sullivan wrote:
>
> I am not a fool. I may be ignorant, but I am not a fool. What am I
> ignorant about?

adg.... tape that simms covets? c'mom, you're hoodwinked.

[[email protected]]

And what can make you wonder is when you can get an outstanding, warantied,
top end blank, custom wrapped with the best components from a rod builder
like Dan Craft for less than those rods, much less. And this is a
presentation quality, can't find a fault even under magnification rod. Also
these rods and blanks have had nothing but good press. And you get to pick
exactly how you want to build it, or have it built.

[Wayne Knight]

"Mu Young Lee" > wrote in message
. itd.umich.edu...
>
> Seriously though. Weren't the premium rods $500 before they instituted
> these ridiculous warranties? The price didn;t go up did they? Or maybe
> the cost of insurance amounted to only $10-$50 per rod.
>

You are correct, the year that Sage, Winston, T&T and Scott switched to
lifetime warranties, there was no "out of the ordinary" price increase (they
had been raising prices every year before).

Each handled it differently, sage retro'd many of their rods, Winston
offered you a chance to buy a warranty on certain rods, T&T and Scott only
applied it to rods purchased going forward.

[Steve Sullivan]

In article >,
wrote:

> daytripper > wrote:
>
> > Does titanium offer any advantages over, say, boron, in a fly rod?
>
> Yes; you can sell it to suckers for a buttload more $.
>
> Meanwhile, the fish still don't give a damn about that end of the line.

I have a adg 7/8 titan rod and matching reel and I love it. It is much
better than graphite. I dont know if titanium offers any advantages
over boron, I thought that boron was a newer generation allow than
titanium and would be better or equal to titanium, but I have never
tried it. The only disadvantage with ADG is that the warranty repair is
$60, while with tfo its only $25.

[[email protected]]

Boron has never been uses in any rods in a very high percentage due to it
inherent problems, the biggest being that the fibers are many times larger
than the fibers on a graphite sheet, this leaves more area betwwen the
fibers for excess bonding resin that make the rods much more liable to
fracture or delaminate between the fibers.
Titanium is usually just added to the resin and benefits nothing.
Quartz Matrix scrim and other innovations are in the works that look more
promising.