Re: Scottish Fly Fisher on MSN

[Mike Connor]

> Is it as difficult to find decent fly fishing in Scotland as it is
> 'fishing" (£££££) in the rest of the UK?
>
>>John

It is becoming increasingly difficult to find fishing in Europe which does
not cost a considerable amount of money, and usually also involves extensive
travel. This is mainly due to anglers being prepared to pay outrageous sums
for even mediocre fishing. It will certainly get worse. There is nothing
much to be done about it. Most "normal" anglers, are simply priced out of
the market.

Some places have become veritable angling tourist Meccas, and the fishing
often deteriorates rapidly as a result. People looking for peace and quiet
or a solitary experience on "good" waters are increasingly disappointed,
despite having paid a veritable fortune for the privilege. Many ( Most?),
can not even afford this doubtful experience.

Add to this the ongoing problems due to pollution and massive overfishing,
and the future is not very bright.

TL
MC

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:56:14 +0200, "Mike Connor"
> wrote:

>> Is it as difficult to find decent fly fishing in Scotland as it is
>> 'fishing" (£££££) in the rest of the UK?
>>
>>>John
>
>It is becoming increasingly difficult to find fishing in Europe which does
>not cost a considerable amount of money, and usually also involves extensive
>travel. This is mainly due to anglers being prepared to pay outrageous sums
>for even mediocre fishing. It will certainly get worse. There is nothing
>much to be done about it. Most "normal" anglers, are simply priced out of
>the market.
>
>Some places have become veritable angling tourist Meccas, and the fishing
>often deteriorates rapidly as a result. People looking for peace and quiet
>or a solitary experience on "good" waters are increasingly disappointed,
>despite having paid a veritable fortune for the privilege. Many ( Most?),
>can not even afford this doubtful experience.
>
>Add to this the ongoing problems due to pollution and massive overfishing,
>and the future is not very bright.
>
I couldn't agree more. As individuals, we fishermen can make a
contribution by practicing catch and release at least. However, the
environment is so out of kilter, more needs to be done at a national
and international level.

Look at the cormorant problem in the UK. Due to over-fishing at sea,
these birds are heading inland, and the effect on wild fish stocks has
been devastating in some areas.

Over use of pesticides not only screw up the insect life on which the
fish feed, but they stay in the food chain and accumulate to toxic
levels in predator species.

Unless something is done soon, all we will have to look forward to is
days of stockie bashing in muddy puddles.

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[Mike Connor]

"Scottish Fly Fisher" > schrieb im
Newsbeitrag ...
<SNIP>
> I couldn't agree more. As individuals, we fishermen can make a
> contribution by practicing catch and release at least. However, the
> environment is so out of kilter, more needs to be done at a national
> and international level.
>
> Look at the cormorant problem in the UK. Due to over-fishing at sea,
> these birds are heading inland, and the effect on wild fish stocks has
> been devastating in some areas.
>
> Over use of pesticides not only screw up the insect life on which the
> fish feed, but they stay in the food chain and accumulate to toxic
> levels in predator species.
>
> Unless something is done soon, all we will have to look forward to is
> days of stockie bashing in muddy puddles.
>
> John
> http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
> Responsible anglers catch and release.
> Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

Practising catch and release is unlikely to solve any European problems at
all. Even if you took all the fish you ever caught in your life, including
undersized ones, you will never even get close to a fraction of the amount
in one trawl, or drift net. Alone the fish being taken from the sea to
produce pellets and similar material is in the millions of tonnes, and
increasing daily. This is completely destroying whole food chains, beyond
hope of recovery in a reasonable time scale.

The cormorant problem is not only a result of overfishing at sea, but
because the birds are protected. Populations have increased massively since
these birds were placed under protection.

Pesticides are a considerably lesser problem than fertiliser!

Many anglers nowadays, especially in the UK and various parts of Europe,
spend their lives looking forward to "days of stockie bashing in muddy
puddles". Fishing for fish which have been raised at an incredible loss
ratio, on wild protein obtained at the cost of massive and in the meantime
irreparable damage to the environment. This is quite apart from the
horrendous damage and wastage engendered by various other fish farming
projects world wide.

Anglers ( apart from the stockie bashers), are not responsible for these
things, and as ever, most are quite powerless to do anything about it.

While catch and release may be of some use in management of fisheries, ( or
more accurately, in management of anglers who use them!), it will do no good
at all in the face of the now huge problems in much of Europe, and indeed,
in many cases it merely serves to sop people´s consciences, as many cite it
as the moral high ground, when in fact, it is completely irrelevant to the
problems we are now facing.

TL
MC

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:11:59 +0200, "Mike Connor"
> wrote:

>
>"Scottish Fly Fisher" > schrieb im
>Newsbeitrag ...
><SNIP>
>> I couldn't agree more. As individuals, we fishermen can make a
>> contribution by practicing catch and release at least. However, the
>> environment is so out of kilter, more needs to be done at a national
>> and international level.
>>
>> Look at the cormorant problem in the UK. Due to over-fishing at sea,
>> these birds are heading inland, and the effect on wild fish stocks has
>> been devastating in some areas.
>>
>> Over use of pesticides not only screw up the insect life on which the
>> fish feed, but they stay in the food chain and accumulate to toxic
>> levels in predator species.
>>
>> Unless something is done soon, all we will have to look forward to is
>> days of stockie bashing in muddy puddles.
>>
>> John
>> http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
>> Responsible anglers catch and release.
>> Lose the barbs or lose the fish!
>
>Practising catch and release is unlikely to solve any European problems at
>all. Even if you took all the fish you ever caught in your life, including
>undersized ones, you will never even get close to a fraction of the amount
>in one trawl, or drift net. Alone the fish being taken from the sea to
>produce pellets and similar material is in the millions of tonnes, and
>increasing daily. This is completely destroying whole food chains, beyond
>hope of recovery in a reasonable time scale.

Sadly, you're right, and I probably only doing it to salve my
conscience. However, it is something that I have the power to do.

>The cormorant problem is not only a result of overfishing at sea, but
>because the birds are protected. Populations have increased massively since
>these birds were placed under protection.

LoL. I had an interesting conversation with a twitcher on the Clyde
early in the season. The RSPB had set up a peregrine watch near a nest
near the Falls of Clyde. I was only out for a walk, so I wasn't kitted
up, and it wasn't obvious that I was a fisher. I was spoiling for a
debate, so I asked them if they had seen any cormorants in the area.
The guide proudly told me that he'd seen several in the area,
including several fledglings.

I know it was petty, but I was smarting from a few unproductive
outings on what used to be some of my favourite stretches of the
river, and he was a convenient target for my griping.

The sad thing is that conserving the cormorants is probably their
version of catch and release... trying to do something in the face of
overwhelming adversity.

If only the could adapt like the gulls, and live off land-fills and by
mugging the occasional drunk for their kebab. :-)

>Pesticides are a considerably lesser problem than fertiliser!

One I forgot to mention.

>Many anglers nowadays, especially in the UK and various parts of Europe,
>spend their lives looking forward to "days of stockie bashing in muddy
>puddles". Fishing for fish which have been raised at an incredible loss
>ratio, on wild protein obtained at the cost of massive and in the meantime
>irreparable damage to the environment. This is quite apart from the
>horrendous damage and wastage engendered by various other fish farming
>projects world wide.

I could be wrong, but isn't the fish food made from the wastage... the
stuff that people don't eat? I could be wrong here, but does the
production of fish food pellets make a significant difference to the
amount of fish that are hoovered up from the sea?

>Anglers ( apart from the stockie bashers), are not responsible for these
>things, and as ever, most are quite powerless to do anything about it.

But it feels better if you try to do something, no matter how
insignificant. Most of us are stockie bashers, BTW. There are few
truly wild waters left in Britain, (I can't speak for the continent.)
It's hard to find any water that doesn't have its population
supplemented by triploid stockies. If these fish are wasteful,
ecologically speaking, we are fooling ourselves that they help to prop
up the resident populations of trout.

>While catch and release may be of some use in management of fisheries, ( or
>more accurately, in management of anglers who use them!), it will do no good
>at all in the face of the now huge problems in much of Europe, and indeed,
>in many cases it merely serves to sop people´s consciences, as many cite it
>as the moral high ground, when in fact, it is completely irrelevant to the
>problems we are now facing.

You're probably right, but it can't hurt, can it? If I don't kill my
fish and treat them with care when returning them, that still makes a
difference, albeit a small one. Every journey starts with a single
step...

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[Wolfgang]

"Scottish Fly Fisher" > wrote in message
...
> ...The cormorant problem is not only a result of overfishing at sea, but
>>because the birds are protected. Populations have increased massively
>>since
>>these birds were placed under protection.....
>
> ...If only the could adapt like the gulls, and live off land-fills and by
> mugging the occasional drunk for their kebab. :-)

I don't recall ever seeing a cormorant when I was a boy growing up on the
shore of Lake Michigan. As far as I knew, even many years later when I
developed an interest in birds, they were strictly marine birds. As a
matter of fact, I still don't know whether they are considered native on the
Great Lakes. I first started noticing them (much to my excited pleasure)
maybe 15 or 20 years ago. These days it's nearly impossible to spend any
time on the beaches or the lake without seeing many of them, and their
numbers seem to be increasing steadily.

Presumably, they are also protected here as they are not considered to be
either game birds or pests......not yet, anyway.....and protected is the
default status for anything not covered by the other two categories. Not
that protected status makes much difference, I suppose. Nobody seems to be
much interested in shooting them; the days of widespread shooting of
anything that moves are pretty much gone around here.

Interesting that they are burgeoning both here and there. One wonders
whether the same sorts of dynamics are at work.....and what they might be.

Also interesting.....and disturbing.....is the fact that the populations of
gulls (primarily herring gulls and ring-billed gulls) have also been
increasing at an alarming rate, much to the detriment of many of the shore
birds from what I've heard. I haven't researched the matter, so I don't
really know what's behind this rise either, but I do know that it has a lot
of wildlife scientists and managers very concerned.

And then, just about a month ago, I saw my first ever Lake Michigan
pelican....a brown pelican. Not sure that the existence of a pelican here
means anything, but watching all the changes that have taken place in the
past 50 years or so is very unsettling. The Great Lakes ecology is reeling
from one serious blow after another, with no end in sight.

Wolfgang

[Mike Connor]

"Scottish Fly Fisher" > schrieb im
Newsbeitrag ...
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:11:59 +0200, "Mike Connor"
> > wrote:
>
> I could be wrong, but isn't the fish food made from the wastage... the
> stuff that people don't eat? I could be wrong here, but does the
> production of fish food pellets make a significant difference to the
> amount of fish that are hoovered up from the sea?
>

No, unfortunately, practically all fish farming, including the breeding and
raising of triploid rainbows and other fish, especially salmonids, not to
mention very large numbers of crustaceans and similar, depends entirely on
large amounts of wild protein which is obtained from the high seas, and then
processed very wastefully.

Do a google search on the consumption of wild protein pellets, ( and there
are no viable substitutes) in the UK alone. A very large proportion of this
is used for fish farming, although there are a number of other uses,
including cattle feed, chicken feed ( which is why the boiled eggs stink of
fish!), and fertiliser.

If you check global figures, which are increasing very rapidly, then you
will be even more shocked. Fish farming is increasing rapidly, but the wild
protein consumption is alsready far beyond the capacity of the oceans to
replace it, quite apart from the resultant food chain destruction, and all
the other severe collateral damage.

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

"Wolfgang" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
>SNIP>
> Interesting that they are burgeoning both here and there. One wonders
> whether the same sorts of dynamics are at work.....and what they might be.
>
<SNIP>

Ongoing and well founded research suggests that the dynamics are much the
same. The single main cause being the massive overfishing of food chain
items. Large areas of ocean around the Americas are now almost devoid of
life, forcing birds and other predators to seek alternatives. These
alternatives are of course also slowly, or even rapidly eroded, as the birds
then increase to beyond what the resource can bear, and then go into sharp
decline, but only after much damage and destruction has taken place.

TL
MC

[Wolfgang]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wolfgang" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
>>SNIP>
>> Interesting that they are burgeoning both here and there. One wonders
>> whether the same sorts of dynamics are at work.....and what they might
>> be.
>>
> <SNIP>
>
> Ongoing and well founded research suggests that the dynamics are much the
> same. The single main cause being the massive overfishing of food chain
> items. Large areas of ocean around the Americas are now almost devoid of
> life, forcing birds and other predators to seek alternatives. These
> alternatives are of course also slowly, or even rapidly eroded, as the
> birds then increase to beyond what the resource can bear, and then go into
> sharp decline, but only after much damage and destruction has taken place.

I can't deny that overharvesting the cormorants' food supply in marine
habitats has contributed to their dispersal in search of greener pastures,
but the Great Lakes even at their most fecund are virtually sterile as their
compared to oceanic environments. There must be something more going on, I
think.

Wolfgang

[Mike Connor]

"Wolfgang" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
<SNIP>
> I can't deny that overharvesting the cormorants' food supply in marine
> habitats has contributed to their dispersal in search of greener pastures,
> but the Great Lakes even at their most fecund are virtually sterile as
> their compared to oceanic environments. There must be something more
> going on, I think.
>
> Wolfgang
>

Oh doubtless there are other mechanisms at work as well, there always are,
often ( indeed, usually!) extremely complex to boot. I have no really
specific information on the Great Lakes as such, although they are also
mentioned in some research I have read. Large numbers of cormorants have now
apparently developed quite specific behaviour for exploiting inland areas.
This is especially evident in parts of Europe, where the birds have indeed
virtually denuded even large areas of fish. Where there were once no birds
at all, there are now quite large numbers, and very active nesting colonies.

Some gulls have also been observed to have completely modified their feeding
areas and behaviour, now coming inland and feeding almost exclusively on
rubbish tips and in similar areas. Huge flocks of these birds can now be
observed in such places.

There is quite a lot of literature on the matter, and a google search will
also turn up a great deal. Perhaps there is indeed something a little more
specific on the Great Lakes?

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

May be of interest;

http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/issues/cormorant/greatlakes_q&a.htm

It should be remembered of course that there are quite a number of cormorant
species, and not all will necessarily behave in the same manner, or for the
same reasons.

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

Also of interest;
http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmaster/news/story?page=b_fea_bt_0408_news_cormorants

http://www.nmnh.si.edu/BIRDNET/OC/experthelp/DCCO.html

this search;
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=great+lakes+cormorants&meta=

Will turn up a whole load of stuff.

A list of species is here;
http://www.camacdonald.com/birding/Sampler5-Cormorants.htm

May also be interesting;
http://www.nerc.ac.uk/publications/latestpressrelease/2000-15fastfood.asp

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/subjects/fish/165773/272851/273304/?lang=_e

There is a great deal more available on the net.

TL
MC

[Wolfgang]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
> May be of interest;
>
> http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/issues/cormorant/greatlakes_q&a.htm

Thanks, Mike. Very informative and interesting page.

It reminded me that I read a story some months ago about a group of people
who took it upon themselves to slaughter a nesting colony of birds somewhere
because of the perception that the birds were responsible for declining game
fish populations.

Anybody remember that story?

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang]

"Jonathan Cook" > wrote in message
...
> Wolfgang > wrote:
>
>> means anything, but watching all the changes that have taken place in the
>> past 50 years or so is very unsettling. The Great Lakes ecology is
>> reeling
>> from one serious blow after another, with no end in sight.
>
> Not to mention all those salmon and steelhead...

The salmon and steelhead, while not specifically named, were certainly in my
mind when I commented on the ecological changes in the Great Lakes, as were
many other species which, if you look carefully, you may notice were also
not mentioned by name.

Wolfgang

[Scott Seidman]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in
:

>
> I can't deny that overharvesting the cormorants' food supply in marine
> habitats has contributed to their dispersal in search of greener
> pastures, but the Great Lakes even at their most fecund are virtually
> sterile as their compared to oceanic environments. There must be
> something more going on, I think.
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
>

Great Lakes Cormorant management is an absolute nightmare. I've heard the
NY DEC speak on this a number of times. They have federal permission for
lethal management, but conservation groups keep preventing it through legal
action. The DEC's main tool is egg oiling.

A big issue is that the US and the Canuckistanians have to be on the same
page with respect to management, or things get screwed up.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

[Wolfgang]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Connor" > wrote in message
> ...
>> May be of interest;
>>
>> http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/issues/cormorant/greatlakes_q&a.htm
>
> Thanks, Mike. Very informative and interesting page.
>
> It reminded me that I read a story some months ago about a group of people
> who took it upon themselves to slaughter a nesting colony of birds
> somewhere because of the perception that the birds were responsible for
> declining game fish populations.
>
> Anybody remember that story?

Found it:

"Cormorant predation on smallmouth bass in the Great Lakes so alarming that
some individuals have taken matters into their own hands. In 1998, nine
fishermen killed about 2,000 adult cormorants on Little Galloo Island in
Lake Ontario. The men were found guilty of violating the Migratory Bird
Treaty Act. They were fined and sentenced to several months of home
confinement."

from:

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmaster/news/story?page=b_fea_bt_0408_news_cormorants

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang]

"Scott Seidman" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
> "Wolfgang" > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> I can't deny that overharvesting the cormorants' food supply in marine
>> habitats has contributed to their dispersal in search of greener
>> pastures, but the Great Lakes even at their most fecund are virtually
>> sterile as their compared to oceanic environments. There must be
>> something more going on, I think.
>>
>> Wolfgang
>>
>>
>>
>
> Great Lakes Cormorant management is an absolute nightmare. I've heard the
> NY DEC speak on this a number of times. They have federal permission for
> lethal management, but conservation groups keep preventing it through
> legal
> action. The DEC's main tool is egg oiling.
>
> A big issue is that the US and the Canuckistanians have to be on the same
> page with respect to management, or things get screwed up.

Yep, things tend to get complicated.

At any rate, a preliminary survey of the sites Mike provided and a few
others suggests that population increases in the Great Lakes are
attributable mainly to natural increase of resident populations rather than
augmentation through immigration.

Wolfgang

[Mike Connor]

"Wolfgang" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
<SNIP>
> Found it:
>
> "Cormorant predation on smallmouth bass in the Great Lakes so alarming
> that some individuals have taken matters into their own hands. In 1998,
> nine fishermen killed about 2,000 adult cormorants on Little Galloo Island
> in Lake Ontario. The men were found guilty of violating the Migratory Bird
> Treaty Act. They were fined and sentenced to several months of home
> confinement."
>
> from:
>
> http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmaster/news/story?page=b_fea_bt_0408_news_cormorants
>
> Wolfgang
>

Indeed, emotions can run high on such matters. It is now possible to obtain
restricted shooting permits here, especially as a "pond" or lake owner, as
it is normally quite easy to prove the cormorant predation in such places.
There are some who would go the whole hog, and eradicate the birds if they
could, which would doubtless cause another load of problems.

During a couple of recent relatively severe winters here, large numbers of
( European) cormorants turned their attentions to feeder becks, small
streams, and some rivers, as the lakes etc were frozen over. Many streams
and the like, over very wide areas, were completely denuded of fish as a
result. Whole generations of trout and grayling simply disappeared.

This is why many anglers dislike ( read "Hate" !) the birds. Under normal
circumstances these birds would not hunt in streams etc, but there are
circumstances when they do, and they are remarkably efficient at it. It does
not take a group of cormorants long to empty a small stream of practically
all fish up to about 20 cm in length.

TL
MC

[rw]

Scott Seidman wrote:
>
> Great Lakes Cormorant management is an absolute nightmare. I've heard the
> NY DEC speak on this a number of times. They have federal permission for
> lethal management, but conservation groups keep preventing it through legal
> action. The DEC's main tool is egg oiling.

Sheesh! If it were Idaho there'd be a 20-bird bag limit on cormorants.
Hell, we have a hunting season for Sandhill Cranes.

I've never seen a cormorant in Idaho, and God help the first one that
shows up.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[MichaelM]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wolfgang" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
> >SNIP>
> > Interesting that they are burgeoning both here and there. One wonders
> > whether the same sorts of dynamics are at work.....and what they might
be.
> >
> <SNIP>
>
> Ongoing and well founded research suggests that the dynamics are much the
> same. The single main cause being the massive overfishing of food chain
> items. Large areas of ocean around the Americas are now almost devoid of
> life, forcing birds and other predators to seek alternatives. These
> alternatives are of course also slowly, or even rapidly eroded, as the
birds
> then increase to beyond what the resource can bear, and then go into sharp
> decline, but only after much damage and destruction has taken place.
>

White egrets are establishing very well on Norfolk ATM ~ don't know what
they are displacing, as the herons are still ther in number. Maybe there's
more amphibians / small fish?. We are regularly catching triggerfish on
south coast shores too.

Poor old polar bears are going to have to turn back to being brown or else
become extinct the way things are going with the environment / sun / nature.

[rw]

rw wrote:

> Scott Seidman wrote:
>
>>
>> Great Lakes Cormorant management is an absolute nightmare. I've heard
>> the NY DEC speak on this a number of times. They have federal
>> permission for lethal management, but conservation groups keep
>> preventing it through legal action. The DEC's main tool is egg oiling.
>
>
> Sheesh! If it were Idaho there'd be a 20-bird bag limit on cormorants.
> Hell, we have a hunting season for Sandhill Cranes.
>
> I've never seen a cormorant in Idaho, and God help the first one that
> shows up.

Sorry to reply to my own post, but:

I Googled Idaho cormorant. There's one species, the double-crested
cormorant, that is native and very distinct, but I've never seen one.
It's designated non-game protected species.

If any non-double-crested cormorants show up, they should say their
prayers. :-)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[MichaelM]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message news:dhem1a$32p$02

> Some gulls have also been observed to have completely modified their
feeding
> areas and behaviour, now coming inland and feeding almost exclusively on
> rubbish tips and in similar areas. Huge flocks of these birds can now be
> observed in such places.
>

Mike, In bangalore, southern India, there are thousands of kites (brahminny
and pariah kites) that soar around allover the city. When I 1st went there,
I couldn't believe how many birds of prey I was seeing; it was amazing, I
was taking piks all the time! I later found out from a birdwatching
enthuisiast from south of bangalore, that the kites are more or less city
scavengers "similar to your gulls", he told me. He also told me that back
home in England 100 years ago, we had loads of city kites too, but we
persecuted them, and the gulls later filled the vacuum.

[Wolfgang]

"rw" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> rw wrote:
>
>> Scott Seidman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Great Lakes Cormorant management is an absolute nightmare. I've heard
>>> the NY DEC speak on this a number of times. They have federal
>>> permission for lethal management, but conservation groups keep
>>> preventing it through legal action. The DEC's main tool is egg oiling.
>>
>>
>> Sheesh! If it were Idaho there'd be a 20-bird bag limit on cormorants.
>> Hell, we have a hunting season for Sandhill Cranes.
>>
>> I've never seen a cormorant in Idaho, and God help the first one that
>> shows up.
>
> Sorry to reply to my own post, but:
>
> I Googled Idaho cormorant. There's one species, the double-crested
> cormorant, that is native and very distinct, but I've never seen one. It's
> designated non-game protected species.
>
> If any non-double-crested cormorants show up, they should say their
> prayers. :-)

Think of them as wolves in pursuit of dogs.........it makes it easier to
squeeeeze.......

Wolfgang

[[email protected]]

Mike,

It isn't so in all of Europe, as it is till pretty cheap, clean and
wild in all of the Scandinavian countries, and from the size of those
countries, and with regard to their low population,I still feel that
there's hope. I do however share your concern about overfishing,
especially in the sea. The sad thing is that scientists have been
warning about possible collapsing populations of fish, like for example
cod, and still the politicians seem to listen only to the fishing
industry. Then again, why am I surprised? Have yet to meet with a
politician who cares more about what's actually going on than his or
hers own career and wallet.

On another note, I'd like to see Scotland one day, not necessarily
because of the fishing but still, it looks like a nice place (and they
do produce a certain liquid that I find interesting).

/Roger

[Mike Connor]

> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
oups.com...
<SNIP>
> On another note, I'd like to see Scotland one day, not necessarily
> because of the fishing but still, it looks like a nice place (and they
> do produce a certain liquid that I find interesting).
>
> /Roger
>

There is still "SOME" good cheap fishing in the Scandinavian countries, but
they are also suffering badly from various problems. Salmon and seatrout
fishing has declined rapidly in recent years, and the price has also gone up
very considerably in many places.

Scotland is indeed a very nice play to visit. Hope you make it!

TL
MC

[angler]

Mike,

As I said, the fishing industry is doing some serious damage to our sea
fish. on the other hand, grayling, brown trout and arctic char have all
been improving the last few years. So I guess it is not all bad. And as
you say, the salmon and sea trout fishing has strangely become a bit
more costly when the salmon have become less ususal.
I hope that someone with a bit of power does something about the
insanity that goes on in our sea, and that soon.

/Roger

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:48:15 -0500, "Wolfgang" >
wrote:

>
>"Scottish Fly Fisher" > wrote in message
...
>> ...The cormorant problem is not only a result of overfishing at sea, but
>>>because the birds are protected. Populations have increased massively
>>>since
>>>these birds were placed under protection.....
>>
>> ...If only the could adapt like the gulls, and live off land-fills and by
>> mugging the occasional drunk for their kebab. :-)
>
>I don't recall ever seeing a cormorant when I was a boy growing up on the
>shore of Lake Michigan. As far as I knew, even many years later when I
>developed an interest in birds, they were strictly marine birds. As a
>matter of fact, I still don't know whether they are considered native on the
>Great Lakes. I first started noticing them (much to my excited pleasure)
>maybe 15 or 20 years ago. These days it's nearly impossible to spend any
>time on the beaches or the lake without seeing many of them, and their
>numbers seem to be increasing steadily.
>
>Presumably, they are also protected here as they are not considered to be
>either game birds or pests......not yet, anyway.....and protected is the
>default status for anything not covered by the other two categories. Not
>that protected status makes much difference, I suppose. Nobody seems to be
>much interested in shooting them; the days of widespread shooting of
>anything that moves are pretty much gone around here.
>
>Interesting that they are burgeoning both here and there. One wonders
>whether the same sorts of dynamics are at work.....and what they might be.
>
>Also interesting.....and disturbing.....is the fact that the populations of
>gulls (primarily herring gulls and ring-billed gulls) have also been
>increasing at an alarming rate, much to the detriment of many of the shore
>birds from what I've heard. I haven't researched the matter, so I don't
>really know what's behind this rise either, but I do know that it has a lot
>of wildlife scientists and managers very concerned.
>
>And then, just about a month ago, I saw my first ever Lake Michigan
>pelican....a brown pelican. Not sure that the existence of a pelican here
>means anything, but watching all the changes that have taken place in the
>past 50 years or so is very unsettling. The Great Lakes ecology is reeling
>from one serious blow after another, with no end in sight.
>

Same depressing story all over, eh? At least we don't have pelicans in
Scotland!

The trouble that we have with cormorants is they are effective
predators, they are greedy and they prey upon the fish that are the
bread and butter of most game fishers... i.e. fish between 8 oz and
2lbs.

I seriously hope you don't end up with the same problem. Here's a link
you might find interesting and alarming! Loch Leven was once world
famous, (then some silly bugger thought it would be a good idea to
stock it with rainbows.) It highlights the problems these birds cause
on Scottish waters rather well. (The relevant paragraph is about half
way down page 4.)

http://www.lochlevenfisheries.co.uk/LOCHLEVEN%20STRATEGY%20DOC.pdf

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:57:26 +0200, "Mike Connor"
> wrote:

>
>"Scottish Fly Fisher" > schrieb im
>Newsbeitrag ...
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:11:59 +0200, "Mike Connor"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> I could be wrong, but isn't the fish food made from the wastage... the
>> stuff that people don't eat? I could be wrong here, but does the
>> production of fish food pellets make a significant difference to the
>> amount of fish that are hoovered up from the sea?
>>
>
>No, unfortunately, practically all fish farming, including the breeding and
>raising of triploid rainbows and other fish, especially salmonids, not to
>mention very large numbers of crustaceans and similar, depends entirely on
>large amounts of wild protein which is obtained from the high seas, and then
>processed very wastefully.
>
>Do a google search on the consumption of wild protein pellets, ( and there
>are no viable substitutes) in the UK alone. A very large proportion of this
>is used for fish farming, although there are a number of other uses,
>including cattle feed, chicken feed ( which is why the boiled eggs stink of
>fish!), and fertiliser.
>
>If you check global figures, which are increasing very rapidly, then you
>will be even more shocked. Fish farming is increasing rapidly, but the wild
>protein consumption is alsready far beyond the capacity of the oceans to
>replace it, quite apart from the resultant food chain destruction, and all
>the other severe collateral damage.

OK... that's it... I'm cracking open the tequila!

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:34:20 GMT, rw >
wrote:

>Scott Seidman wrote:
>>
>> Great Lakes Cormorant management is an absolute nightmare. I've heard the
>> NY DEC speak on this a number of times. They have federal permission for
>> lethal management, but conservation groups keep preventing it through legal
>> action. The DEC's main tool is egg oiling.
>
>Sheesh! If it were Idaho there'd be a 20-bird bag limit on cormorants.
>Hell, we have a hunting season for Sandhill Cranes.
>
>I've never seen a cormorant in Idaho, and God help the first one that
>shows up.

Pray that they don't!

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:43:36 +0100, "MichaelM"
> wrote:

>
>"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Wolfgang" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> ...
>> >SNIP>
>> > Interesting that they are burgeoning both here and there. One wonders
>> > whether the same sorts of dynamics are at work.....and what they might
>be.
>> >
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> Ongoing and well founded research suggests that the dynamics are much the
>> same. The single main cause being the massive overfishing of food chain
>> items. Large areas of ocean around the Americas are now almost devoid of
>> life, forcing birds and other predators to seek alternatives. These
>> alternatives are of course also slowly, or even rapidly eroded, as the
>birds
>> then increase to beyond what the resource can bear, and then go into sharp
>> decline, but only after much damage and destruction has taken place.
>>
>
>White egrets are establishing very well on Norfolk ATM ~ don't know what
>they are displacing, as the herons are still ther in number. Maybe there's
>more amphibians / small fish?. We are regularly catching triggerfish on
>south coast shores too.
>
>Poor old polar bears are going to have to turn back to being brown or else
>become extinct the way things are going with the environment / sun / nature.
>

That's the thing... as ecosystems get messed up, species adapt, if
they can. Then man takes remedial action and persecutes them, because
they have become pests.

Damn... I'm outta limes!

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On 28 Sep 2005 19:28:38 -0700, wrote:

>Mike,
>
>It isn't so in all of Europe, as it is till pretty cheap, clean and
>wild in all of the Scandinavian countries, and from the size of those
>countries, and with regard to their low population,I still feel that
>there's hope. I do however share your concern about overfishing,
>especially in the sea. The sad thing is that scientists have been
>warning about possible collapsing populations of fish, like for example
>cod, and still the politicians seem to listen only to the fishing
>industry. Then again, why am I surprised? Have yet to meet with a
>politician who cares more about what's actually going on than his or
>hers own career and wallet.
>
>On another note, I'd like to see Scotland one day, not necessarily
>because of the fishing but still, it looks like a nice place (and they
>do produce a certain liquid that I find interesting).
>

I suppose that being a fisherman, I should prefer a Speyside malt, but
I'd go for an Islay one every time. Mmm... peat smoke!

Anyway, I digress. I should be making a shameless plug for the SFF
group at this juncture. ;-)

Scotland is beautiful,if you ignore some areas in the central belt.
(Yeah, I know, I'm biased.) Just bring plenty of waterproofs and
insect repellant and you'll have a blast!

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:17:10 +0200, "Mike Connor"
> wrote:

>
> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
oups.com...
><SNIP>
>> On another note, I'd like to see Scotland one day, not necessarily
>> because of the fishing but still, it looks like a nice place (and they
>> do produce a certain liquid that I find interesting).
>>
>> /Roger
>>
>
>There is still "SOME" good cheap fishing in the Scandinavian countries, but
>they are also suffering badly from various problems. Salmon and seatrout
>fishing has declined rapidly in recent years, and the price has also gone up
>very considerably in many places.

There are still a number of waters in Scotland that are free to fish
for wild brownies. OK, they are small, but they give you some good
sport in spectacular surroundings. Loch Ba, Lochan na Achlaise and
Lochan na Stainge on Rannoch Moor are particular favourites of mine.
Look here and you'll see why...

http://www.lowefoto.com/konica/glencoe04.jpg

>Scotland is indeed a very nice play to visit. Hope you make it!
>

Most parts of it are. There are exceptions, believe me! :-S

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[MichaelM]

"Scottish Fly Fisher" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:43:36 +0100, "MichaelM"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "Wolfgang" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >> ...
> >> >SNIP>
> >> > Interesting that they are burgeoning both here and there. One
wonders
> >> > whether the same sorts of dynamics are at work.....and what they
might
> >be.
> >> >
> >> <SNIP>
> >>
> >> Ongoing and well founded research suggests that the dynamics are much
the
> >> same. The single main cause being the massive overfishing of food chain
> >> items. Large areas of ocean around the Americas are now almost devoid
of
> >> life, forcing birds and other predators to seek alternatives. These
> >> alternatives are of course also slowly, or even rapidly eroded, as the
> >birds
> >> then increase to beyond what the resource can bear, and then go into
sharp
> >> decline, but only after much damage and destruction has taken place.
> >>
> >
> >White egrets are establishing very well on Norfolk ATM ~ don't know what
> >they are displacing, as the herons are still ther in number. Maybe
there's
> >more amphibians / small fish?. We are regularly catching triggerfish on
> >south coast shores too.
> >
> >Poor old polar bears are going to have to turn back to being brown or
else
> >become extinct the way things are going with the environment / sun /
nature.
> >
>
> That's the thing... as ecosystems get messed up, species adapt, if
> they can. Then man takes remedial action and persecutes them, because
> they have become pests.
>

Nature is just so relentless. You just have to watch a little creature to
see that it is virtually programmed to do what it does to sustain itself,
and it does this without R&R. The old anecdote about Robert The Bruce,
seeing a spider repeatedly trying to spin its web inspite of the gusty wind,
is enough to consider at least.

Limes are good ~ stops yer teef fwom farling ute...

[Wolfgang]

"MichaelM" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scottish Fly Fisher" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:43:36 +0100, "MichaelM"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >> "Wolfgang" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> >> ...
>> >> >SNIP>
>> >> > Interesting that they are burgeoning both here and there. One
> wonders
>> >> > whether the same sorts of dynamics are at work.....and what they
> might
>> >be.
>> >> >
>> >> <SNIP>
>> >>
>> >> Ongoing and well founded research suggests that the dynamics are much
> the
>> >> same. The single main cause being the massive overfishing of food
>> >> chain
>> >> items. Large areas of ocean around the Americas are now almost devoid
> of
>> >> life, forcing birds and other predators to seek alternatives. These
>> >> alternatives are of course also slowly, or even rapidly eroded, as the
>> >birds
>> >> then increase to beyond what the resource can bear, and then go into
> sharp
>> >> decline, but only after much damage and destruction has taken place.
>> >>
>> >
>> >White egrets are establishing very well on Norfolk ATM ~ don't know what
>> >they are displacing, as the herons are still ther in number. Maybe
> there's
>> >more amphibians / small fish?. We are regularly catching triggerfish on
>> >south coast shores too.
>> >
>> >Poor old polar bears are going to have to turn back to being brown or
> else
>> >become extinct the way things are going with the environment / sun /
> nature.
>> >
>>
>> That's the thing... as ecosystems get messed up, species adapt, if
>> they can. Then man takes remedial action and persecutes them, because
>> they have become pests.
>>
>
> Nature is just so relentless. You just have to watch a little creature to
> see that it is virtually programmed to do what it does to sustain itself,
> and it does this without R&R. The old anecdote about Robert The Bruce,
> seeing a spider repeatedly trying to spin its web inspite of the gusty
> wind,
> is enough to consider at least.
>
> Limes are good ~ stops yer teef fwom farling ute...

Lime juice is highly acidic. Microorganisms hate it.

Wolfgang
never.....EVER....substitute maple syrup for lime juice in your
ceviche......bad.....VERY bad! :(

[angler]

Hey, that picture, it looks almost as it would at home in the
mountains. Maybe a bit smaller mountains on your side, but the
surroundings are very similar. To go to such a place in Sweden means,
on most occasions, flying in by helicopter (or walking for two days).
This since the mountain area up north is very big and has few roads (if
any). Moors are equally common, there's a place called Shaunja that
when standing on one side you're not able to see the other without
binoculars. Also, I guess that moor of yours have some mosquitoes?
There are places on the Shaunja moor that holds a thousand mosquitoes
per square meter (scientifically proven fact). Not an alltogether
pleasant place to fish, but the Shaunja river has some spectacular
grayling fishing. If for nothing else, I have to go to Scotland one day
to just see the place, looks very nice indeed.

/Roger
For info on fly fishing in the north of Sweden, Lapland visit
http://www.imsoc.se/angler/

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:19:08 +0100, "MichaelM"
> wrote:

>
>"Scottish Fly Fisher" > wrote in message
...
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:43:36 +0100, "MichaelM"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >> "Wolfgang" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> >> ...
>> >> >SNIP>
>> >> > Interesting that they are burgeoning both here and there. One
>wonders
>> >> > whether the same sorts of dynamics are at work.....and what they
>might
>> >be.
>> >> >
>> >> <SNIP>
>> >>
>> >> Ongoing and well founded research suggests that the dynamics are much
>the
>> >> same. The single main cause being the massive overfishing of food chain
>> >> items. Large areas of ocean around the Americas are now almost devoid
>of
>> >> life, forcing birds and other predators to seek alternatives. These
>> >> alternatives are of course also slowly, or even rapidly eroded, as the
>> >birds
>> >> then increase to beyond what the resource can bear, and then go into
>sharp
>> >> decline, but only after much damage and destruction has taken place.
>> >>
>> >
>> >White egrets are establishing very well on Norfolk ATM ~ don't know what
>> >they are displacing, as the herons are still ther in number. Maybe
>there's
>> >more amphibians / small fish?. We are regularly catching triggerfish on
>> >south coast shores too.
>> >
>> >Poor old polar bears are going to have to turn back to being brown or
>else
>> >become extinct the way things are going with the environment / sun /
>nature.
>> >
>>
>> That's the thing... as ecosystems get messed up, species adapt, if
>> they can. Then man takes remedial action and persecutes them, because
>> they have become pests.
>>
>
>Nature is just so relentless. You just have to watch a little creature to
>see that it is virtually programmed to do what it does to sustain itself,
>and it does this without R&R. The old anecdote about Robert The Bruce,
>seeing a spider repeatedly trying to spin its web inspite of the gusty wind,
>is enough to consider at least.

It's what drives evolution... environmental catastrophes only serve to
accelerate the process. The trouble is, I'm not ready to accept mother
nature's new order... her response to what we are doing to the planet.

>Limes are good ~ stops yer teef fwom farling ute...
>

.... and even if they do, you can still suck 'em. :-)

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:27:02 -0500, "Wolfgang" >
wrote:

>
>"MichaelM" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Scottish Fly Fisher" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:43:36 +0100, "MichaelM"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >>
>>> >> "Wolfgang" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>>> >> ...
>>> >> >SNIP>
>>> >> > Interesting that they are burgeoning both here and there. One
>> wonders
>>> >> > whether the same sorts of dynamics are at work.....and what they
>> might
>>> >be.
>>> >> >
>>> >> <SNIP>
>>> >>
>>> >> Ongoing and well founded research suggests that the dynamics are much
>> the
>>> >> same. The single main cause being the massive overfishing of food
>>> >> chain
>>> >> items. Large areas of ocean around the Americas are now almost devoid
>> of
>>> >> life, forcing birds and other predators to seek alternatives. These
>>> >> alternatives are of course also slowly, or even rapidly eroded, as the
>>> >birds
>>> >> then increase to beyond what the resource can bear, and then go into
>> sharp
>>> >> decline, but only after much damage and destruction has taken place.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >White egrets are establishing very well on Norfolk ATM ~ don't know what
>>> >they are displacing, as the herons are still ther in number. Maybe
>> there's
>>> >more amphibians / small fish?. We are regularly catching triggerfish on
>>> >south coast shores too.
>>> >
>>> >Poor old polar bears are going to have to turn back to being brown or
>> else
>>> >become extinct the way things are going with the environment / sun /
>> nature.
>>> >
>>>
>>> That's the thing... as ecosystems get messed up, species adapt, if
>>> they can. Then man takes remedial action and persecutes them, because
>>> they have become pests.
>>>
>>
>> Nature is just so relentless. You just have to watch a little creature to
>> see that it is virtually programmed to do what it does to sustain itself,
>> and it does this without R&R. The old anecdote about Robert The Bruce,
>> seeing a spider repeatedly trying to spin its web inspite of the gusty
>> wind,
>> is enough to consider at least.
>>
>> Limes are good ~ stops yer teef fwom farling ute...
>
>Lime juice is highly acidic. Microorganisms hate it.
>
>Wolfgang
>never.....EVER....substitute maple syrup for lime juice in your
>ceviche......bad.....VERY bad! :(
>
Never substitute maple syrup for lime juice in your margaritas! Yuck!

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On 29 Sep 2005 20:30:39 -0700, "angler" > wrote:

>Hey, that picture, it looks almost as it would at home in the
>mountains. Maybe a bit smaller mountains on your side, but the
>surroundings are very similar. To go to such a place in Sweden means,
>on most occasions, flying in by helicopter (or walking for two days).
>This since the mountain area up north is very big and has few roads (if
>any). Moors are equally common, there's a place called Shaunja that
>when standing on one side you're not able to see the other without
>binoculars. Also, I guess that moor of yours have some mosquitoes?
>There are places on the Shaunja moor that holds a thousand mosquitoes
>per square meter (scientifically proven fact). Not an alltogether
>pleasant place to fish, but the Shaunja river has some spectacular
>grayling fishing. If for nothing else, I have to go to Scotland one day
>to just see the place, looks very nice indeed.

Believe it or not, that pic was probably taken at the side of the A82.
It is unbelievably accessible! It's only a 2 hour drive from Glasgow,
at the most.

We don't really have mosquitoes, (there are a few,) but we have
midges.

http://www.scotweb.co.uk/environment/midges/whatisamidge.html

They are much smaller, but voracious little things. They are a real
pain in the arse.. They form clouds of insectoid irritation that gets
up your nose, in your ears, and despite their small size, they can
really ruin your day with their irritating nibbles.

Apparently the name comes from an old Nordic word, Muggia. I don't
know whether that's because you have them over there, or the Vikings
made it up when they set up their holiday villas over here. :-)

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[angler]

The word you are referring to, "Muggia", is not a word I've heard
before. However, it bears a very close resemblance to the word "Mygga"
wich is our word for the bloodsucking little *******s that are our
mosquitoes.
Can't beleive a place like the one in that photo would be so close to
the road, must be one hell of a nice drive.
BTW, the web site that you were showing that picture from,
http://www.lowefoto.com/ , has some lovely pictures from a national
park in Sweden, Sarek.
Man, the person who owns that web site has traveled around to some
amazing places.

/Roger

[Scottish Fly Fisher]

On 30 Sep 2005 03:50:57 -0700, "angler" > wrote:

>The word you are referring to, "Muggia", is not a word I've heard
>before. However, it bears a very close resemblance to the word "Mygga"
>wich is our word for the bloodsucking little *******s that are our
>mosquitoes.

Sorry, that was a tupo. ;-)

>Can't beleive a place like the one in that photo would be so close to
>the road, must be one hell of a nice drive.

It's a lovely drive... You have to make a hard choice when setting off
though... do you go by Loch Lomond or through the Trossachs then along
Glen Dochart? The best is just round the corner from that spot...
Buachaille Etive Mor looms above the moor, at the entrance to Glencoe.
(That's the mountain that's on the welcome page of the SFF group.) It
only rises about 800m from the moor, but what it lack in altitude, it
makes up for in grandeur.

>BTW, the web site that you were showing that picture from,
>http://www.lowefoto.com/ , has some lovely pictures from a national
>park in Sweden, Sarek.

I had a look. That's my kind of country. I only ever visited Visby on
a Baltic cruise when I was much younger. I've always wanted to visit
the mainland. Norway too... those fjords look amazing.

>Man, the person who owns that web site has traveled around to some
>amazing places.

Lucky bugger!

John
http://groups.msn.com/scottishflyfisher
Responsible anglers catch and release.
Lose the barbs or lose the fish!

[rw]

Now I hear the Mike Meyers Scottish accent, too. Damn you, Bruiser! :-)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.