Re: ROD BUILDING?

[Wolfgang]

"Conan The Librarian" > wrote in message
...
> Wolfgang wrote:
>
>> "Conan The Librarian" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>...At the risk of going even further afield -- I wonder if this is
>>>another one of those cases of guys who are process-oriented vs. results
>>>oriented. My hobbies are very much focused on the process.
>> For most of us, most of the time, it's a sort of hybrid. Very few of us
>> will bother to grow our own trees for lumber or make our own carbon fiber
>> sheeting.....or whatever the hell it's called. Nor will many of us buy a
>> vintage Record plane or a Winston rod and then pay someone to use it for
>> us. :)
>
> Touche. :-) There's an ongoing disucssion on a woodworking group I
> sometimes follow that usually devolves into something along the lines of,
> "well if you're not flint-knapping your own tools ...".

I still make my own glass knives for microtomy.......um, but the process is
a bit more technologically sophisticated than "knapping".

> But I do think there's a real dichotomy there.

Only if you ignore the bulk of the spectrum in concentrating on the infrared
and ultraviolet cranks at either end. :)

> For example, if I'm not mistaken, Steve doesn't tie his own flies,
> preferring to buy them rather than take the time to tie them up himself.
> I love tying flies, and when I do buy them it's usually to get a "working
> model" to copy. I have yet to build a rod, but (like Claspy, that crazy
> bugger) when/if I do, I'll probably go the whole nine yards and try to
> build a bamboo rod.

If either of you does decide to build a grass rod, I'd expect, given your
predilections, that you would start by making your own planing forms.

> I enjoy the fact that I have a tangible byproduct of my hobbies, but I
> have so much fun partaking of the process that I imagine I'd still do it
> even without the tangible evidence. If I was more concerned about the end
> result, there are any number of places where I could speed up the process
> and even insure that my work is more uniform.
>
> But I've even been known to clamp a board to my bench and take a
> handplane to it for no other reason than to see the little wispy shavings
> come out of the plane. :-)
>
>
> Chuck Vance (I've heard rumors that Bill does the same thing, too)

I used to do a lot of that......just to dull the plane irons.....so I could
sharpen them again. :)

I'm currently interested in making and flying kites, making cheese, and
making paper. Would you believe it, in a city the size of Milwaukee I
cannot find a decent retailer for materials for any of those activities!
:(

Wolfgang

[Conan The Librarian]

Wolfgang wrote:

> "Conan The Librarian" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Touche. :-) There's an ongoing disucssion on a woodworking group I
>>sometimes follow that usually devolves into something along the lines of,
>>"well if you're not flint-knapping your own tools ...".
>
> I still make my own glass knives for microtomy.......um, but the process is
> a bit more technologically sophisticated than "knapping".

I'd be interested in hearing more about how you do this. The
closest I've ever come to that would be using a piece of broken glass as
a wood scraper. :-)

>> But I do think there's a real dichotomy there.
>
> Only if you ignore the bulk of the spectrum in concentrating on the infrared
> and ultraviolet cranks at either end. :)

Well, we are on ROFF, aren't we? :-)

>>For example, if I'm not mistaken, Steve doesn't tie his own flies,
>>preferring to buy them rather than take the time to tie them up himself.
>>I love tying flies, and when I do buy them it's usually to get a "working
>>model" to copy. I have yet to build a rod, but (like Claspy, that crazy
>>bugger) when/if I do, I'll probably go the whole nine yards and try to
>>build a bamboo rod.
>
> If either of you does decide to build a grass rod, I'd expect, given your
> predilections, that you would start by making your own planing forms.

Exactly. I've been doing some reading on that very thing, and since
my metalworking skills are nil, I'd probably have to come up with a
hardwood version.

>> But I've even been known to clamp a board to my bench and take a
>>handplane to it for no other reason than to see the little wispy shavings
>>come out of the plane. :-)
>
> I used to do a lot of that......just to dull the plane irons.....so I could
> sharpen them again. :)

Ack. Not me. I sharpen my tools on a setup that consists of
multiple granite surface plates with wet/dry sandpaper of various grits
affixed to them (also known as the "Scary Sharp" method of sharpening).
Until I dedicated an area of my shop to that, I would go as long as I
could between touchups (and I often paid the price for it). Now that I
don't have to drag out my sharpening supplies, I tend to hone my plane
irons on a regular basis, but I still don't like it.

It interferes with the whole zen thing of making wispy shavings.
(Speaking of zen, ask Claspy about his one-sided shavings.)

> I'm currently interested in making and flying kites, making cheese, and
> making paper. Would you believe it, in a city the size of Milwaukee I
> cannot find a decent retailer for materials for any of those activities!
> :(

You have got to be kidding me. I don't know about kites and
papermaking, but *cheese*?! In Wisconsin?!!


Chuck Vance (the mind boggles)

[Wolfgang]

"Conan The Librarian" > wrote in message
...
> Wolfgang wrote:
>
>> I still make my own glass knives for microtomy.......um, but the process
>> is
>> a bit more technologically sophisticated than "knapping".
>
> I'd be interested in hearing more about how you do this. The closest
> I've ever come to that would be using a piece of broken glass as a wood
> scraper. :-)

Experience with broken windows, bottles, etc., suggests that glass breaks
randomly. Not so. In fact, breakage is highly predictable....and
controllable.....under certain conditions. Various machines have been built
for a long time to control breakage in order to leave a sharp, straight edge
on pieces of glass of the right shape and size for use in microtomes. The
one pictured here:

http://www.canemco.com/catalog/histology/knifemakers.htm

is fairly typical and looks much like the one I use. In the following
description it will help to know what the raw material looks like:

http://www.2spi.com/catalog/knives/histo.shtml

A strip of glass is placed on the stage of the knife maker so that it
extends left to right against the two flat pronglike stops at the base of
the head mechanism. The left edge is aligned with a mark on the left stop
(it helps if you save the picture and blow it up....but it's still not real
clear). Turning the crank on the right side of the machine causes the head
assembly to lower and press the glass down onto the stage via a couple of
rubber pads and an square steel anvil (the front edge of which is visible as
a bright white vertical stripe at the front end of the head mechanism) that
hold it securely. The glass is actually raised above the stage proper by
maybe a couple thousands of an inch by two parallel flat ridges visible as
ribbon-like structures on either side of the slot running down the center of
the stage. The slot contains a wheel type glass cutter that is activated by
the large knob on the front of the machine. The knob is pulled out and then
the button on top of it is held down, thus raising the wheel against the
glass, and the knob is pushed back in, scoring the glass. Now, the crank on
top is turned clockwise.....VERY.....slowly. This increases the pressure of
the anvil which is pressing down directly above the scored line. Since the
glass is suspended along two lines and the downward pressure is exerted
evenly between them, the glass MUST break cleanly along the scored
line......in theory. :)

In fact, it takes a lot of practice to make a clean, straight break. The
key to the whole process is stress relief.....and this is where the VERY
slow pressure increase comes into play. Glass is actually a fluid. The
verticle stained glass panes in the medieval cathedrals in Europe are
measurably thicker at the bottom because the glass has flowed (ever so
slowly) downward over the centuries. By increasing the pressure on the
anvil very slowly, you give the stresses time to dissipate to some extent
through the molecular structure of the glass. If you turn the crank slowly
enough and pause frequently (we're talking something on the order of five
minutes elapsed time here.....if done properly) you can actually watch the
fracture line slowly creep up through the thickness of the glass.

At this point you raise the head by turning the main crank on the side of
the machine (the top crank is never reversed.....it is used only the
increase the pressure) and you have the remainder of the strip on the right
and one perfect square of glass on the left.....if you used the correct
alignment mark. There are several marks, for different widths of strips.

Reinsert the square under the head with one of the corners pointed toward
the back of the machine until it stops against a pair of metal tabs
(unfortunately pretty much invisible in the photo). The small dark
structure at the front end of the slot on the top surface of the stage is a
slide which, when pushed forward, rises, exposing another pair of prongs
that capture the opposite corner of the square. Imagine a diagonal line
running through two opposite corners of the square. Now, turn the line on
its center by a couple of degrees. The glass square is held in a position
such that when it is held down as before and scored, the score line is
canted off the corners by those couple of degrees. Thus, when the square is
broken in half you are left with two roughly triangular pieces. In fact,
they aren't quite triangular....there is a small step at one corner. One of
the angles formed in the last break is slightly more than 45 degrees and the
other is slightly less. The angle opposite the one with the step in it is
the new business end of the knife. The edge here was created from a
theoretically perfectly straight piece of glass and will be (also
theoretically) straight and perfectly horizontal when the knife is stood up
on its flat edge.

Once again, practice doesn't quite match theory. For one thing, the
molecular structure of glass causes what is known as a conchoidal fracture
pattern....it just doesn't want to break in straight lines. Additionally,
perfection isn't necessary for most operations. The operator, knowing this,
doesn't increase the pressure on the anvil as slowly as he might and, rather
than watching the break line creep slowly through the glass he allows his
bored gaze to wander and listens for a distinctly audible pop. :)

If everything is done just right, the result is two perfect glass knives.
What actually happens most of the time is that I increase the pressure on
the anvil relatively quickly, make a dozen or so knives, discard ten of
them, and end up with two that will do well enough in less time than it
would take to make the two really good ones. This is really a more
efficient use of resources because the glass is a lot cheaper than my time
and the glass knives are only used for rough work....down to half a micron
thickness....anyway. For ultrathin sections....60-100 nanometers.....we
always use a diamond knife.

>>> But I do think there's a real dichotomy there.
>> Only if you ignore the bulk of the spectrum in concentrating on the
>> infrared
>> and ultraviolet cranks at either end. :)
>
> Well, we are on ROFF, aren't we? :-)

Yep, that's us, mostly monochromatic and largely invisible to most of the
world.

>> ...dull the plane irons.....so I could
>> sharpen them again. :)
>
> Ack. Not me. I sharpen my tools on a setup that consists of multiple
> granite surface plates with wet/dry sandpaper of various grits affixed to
> them (also known as the "Scary Sharp" method of sharpening). Until I
> dedicated an area of my shop to that, I would go as long as I could
> between touchups (and I often paid the price for it). Now that I don't
> have to drag out my sharpening supplies, I tend to hone my plane irons on
> a regular basis, but I still don't like it.

I used a couple of silicon carbide stones that I had made by a local
manufacturer....400 and 600 grit, if memory serves. I tried various jigs
and fixtures but never liked any of them. But I loved to work those blades
on the stones.....actually very similar to using the planes. I always
finished them with tripoli compound on a leather strop. Polishing the
blades makes a HUGE difference!

> It interferes with the whole zen thing of making wispy shavings.
> (Speaking of zen, ask Claspy about his one-sided shavings.)

Um.....yeah.....moebius later.....remind me.

>> I'm currently interested in making and flying kites, making cheese, and
>> making paper. Would you believe it, in a city the size of Milwaukee I
>> cannot find a decent retailer for materials for any of those activities!
>> :(
>
> You have got to be kidding me. I don't know about kites and
> papermaking, but *cheese*?! In Wisconsin?!!
>
>
> Chuck Vance (the mind boggles)

Ainna?! :(

Wolfgang

[Cyli]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:06:33 -0500, "Wolfgang" >
wrote:

>
>"Conan The Librarian" > wrote in message
...
>> Wolfgang wrote:
>>
>>> I still make my own glass knives for microtomy.......um, but the process
>>> is
>>> a bit more technologically sophisticated than "knapping".
>>
>> I'd be interested in hearing more about how you do this. The closest
>> I've ever come to that would be using a piece of broken glass as a wood
>> scraper. :-)


And I thought my grandmother's glass pastry knife was a tech marvel...

BTW, should you ever try knapping flint, it's awfully sharp. Gently
and carefully picking up a small knapped piece can be right up there
with carelessly putting your hand in the knife drawer. First people to
discover it were probably amazed and at a, temporary I'm sure, loss
for how to use the marvelous stuff.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: (strip the .invalid to email)

[Wolfgang]

"Cyli" > wrote in message
...

> And I thought my grandmother's glass pastry knife was a tech marvel...
>
> BTW, should you ever try knapping flint, it's awfully sharp. Gently
> and carefully picking up a small knapped piece can be right up there
> with carelessly putting your hand in the knife drawer. First people to
> discover it were probably amazed and at a, temporary I'm sure, loss
> for how to use the marvelous stuff.

Should you ever find yourself in the position of needing to cut someone's
heart out, you can still get obsidian scalpels from some surgical supply
houses.

Wolfgang
who assumes they have other legitimate uses as well.

[Cyli]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:12:13 -0500, "Wolfgang" >
wrote:


>
>Should you ever find yourself in the position of needing to cut someone's
>heart out, you can still get obsidian scalpels from some surgical supply
>houses.
>
>Wolfgang
>who assumes they have other legitimate uses as well.
>

Even after all these years of life, including marriage and years on
the 'Net, I have yet to have an urge to cut anyone's heart out.
Occasional urge to punch someone in the gut, yes, but heart out? Nah.
Too much messy finicky work.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: (strip the .invalid to email)

[Conan The Librarian]

Wolfgang wrote:

> "Conan The Librarian" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I'd be interested in hearing more about how you do this. The closest
>>I've ever come to that would be using a piece of broken glass as a wood
>>scraper. :-)
>
> Experience with broken windows, bottles, etc., suggests that glass breaks
> randomly. Not so. In fact, breakage is highly predictable....and
> controllable.....under certain conditions. Various machines have been built
> for a long time to control breakage in order to leave a sharp, straight edge
> on pieces of glass of the right shape and size for use in microtomes. The
> one pictured here:
>
> [snip of lots of interesting info]
>
> If everything is done just right, the result is two perfect glass knives.
> What actually happens most of the time is that I increase the pressure on
> the anvil relatively quickly, make a dozen or so knives, discard ten of
> them, and end up with two that will do well enough in less time than it
> would take to make the two really good ones. This is really a more
> efficient use of resources because the glass is a lot cheaper than my time
> and the glass knives are only used for rough work....down to half a micron
> thickness....anyway. For ultrathin sections....60-100 nanometers.....we
> always use a diamond knife.

I never cease to be amazed by the knowledge there is in this nuthouse.

>> Ack. Not me. I sharpen my tools on a setup that consists of multiple
>>granite surface plates with wet/dry sandpaper of various grits affixed to
>>them (also known as the "Scary Sharp" method of sharpening). Until I
>>dedicated an area of my shop to that, I would go as long as I could
>>between touchups (and I often paid the price for it). Now that I don't
>>have to drag out my sharpening supplies, I tend to hone my plane irons on
>>a regular basis, but I still don't like it.
>
> I used a couple of silicon carbide stones that I had made by a local
> manufacturer....400 and 600 grit, if memory serves. I tried various jigs
> and fixtures but never liked any of them. But I loved to work those blades
> on the stones.....actually very similar to using the planes. I always
> finished them with tripoli compound on a leather strop. Polishing the
> blades makes a HUGE difference!

Yep. I used to use what we call "the big green crayon", which is
chromium oxide. I'd smear some on a leather strop or a piece of
softwood and use that for final honing/polishing. It also works nicely
for carving tools, as you can use the tool to cut the profile in a piece
of softwood and then smear the stuff into that profile and hone the
gouge on that.

These days I use 3M "microfinishing film" for final polishing. You
can see it at:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33004&cat=1,43072

But be careful if you go to that website. I've seen people go in
there and never come back. :-)

As for your comment about sharpening fixtures -- that is a complaint
of mine as well. There really isn't one that will do everything well.
They are either hard to center the iron in or they are tippy, or they
don't work with narrow chisels, or ...

So I learned to freehand out of necessity. I still use a guide when
establishing a bevel angle or fixing a damaged edge, but for the most
part it's quicker and easier to just do it freestyle.

BTW, Lee Valley has come up with a sharpening guide that addresses
lots of the problems associated with them:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51868&cat=51&ap=6

>> It interferes with the whole zen thing of making wispy shavings.
>>(Speaking of zen, ask Claspy about his one-sided shavings.)
>
> Um.....yeah.....moebius later.....remind me.

Very nice. :-)


Chuck Vance

[Scott Seidman]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in
:

> Should you ever find yourself in the position of needing to cut
> someone's heart out, you can still get obsidian scalpels from some
> surgical supply houses.
>
Some friends of mine took a course in aboriginal living, and made their own
obsidian tools, which they used for survival over the summer. The
instructor in knapping was one of the guys who supply the obsidian
scalpels.


--
Scott

[Wolfgang]

"Conan The Librarian" > wrote in message
...
> Wolfgang wrote:
>
>> ...If everything is done just right, the result is two perfect glass
>> knives....

> I never cease to be amazed by the knowledge there is in this nuthouse.

It took longer to write that description than it does to read the manual
(well, the important bits, anyway) and make a knife. :)

Making GOOD ones does take a bit of practice, though.

>> ... Polishing the blades makes a HUGE difference!
>
> Yep. I used to use what we call "the big green crayon", which is
> chromium oxide. I'd smear some on a leather strop or a piece of softwood
> and use that for final honing/polishing. It also works nicely for carving
> tools, as you can use the tool to cut the profile in a piece of softwood
> and then smear the stuff into that profile and hone the gouge on that.
>
> These days I use 3M "microfinishing film" for final polishing. You can
> see it at: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33004&cat=1,43072

Back when I did more wood butchery in a shop than in someone's back yard, I
had two sets of chisels. One set, all steel Mayhews, I let no one else
touch. If someone needed a chisel I let 'em use the cheap crap. These
days, alas, I've gotten lax. Now I won't let anyone look at the Mayhews.

> But be careful if you go to that website. I've seen people go in there
> and never come back. :-)

After successful completion of a twelve step program, I'm no longer even
tempted......well, for now, anyway. I got another monkey on my back these
days.......goddamn the pressman! :(

> As for your comment about sharpening fixtures -- that is a complaint of
> mine as well. There really isn't one that will do everything well. They
> are either hard to center the iron in or they are tippy, or they don't
> work with narrow chisels, or ...
>
> So I learned to freehand out of necessity. I still use a guide when
> establishing a bevel angle or fixing a damaged edge, but for the most part
> it's quicker and easier to just do it freestyle.
>
> BTW, Lee Valley has come up with a sharpening guide that addresses lots
> of the problems associated with them:
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51868&cat=51&ap=6

Too many parts. Icky. Assuming it works.....and I'm willing to take that
on faith.....I still wouldn't be interested. As you know, there's a certain
sublime satisfaction to be had in doing some things well the old fashioned
way.

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang]

"Scott Seidman" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
> "Wolfgang" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Should you ever find yourself in the position of needing to cut
>> someone's heart out, you can still get obsidian scalpels from some
>> surgical supply houses.
>>
> Some friends of mine took a course in aboriginal living, and made their
> own
> obsidian tools, which they used for survival over the summer. The
> instructor in knapping was one of the guys who supply the obsidian
> scalpels.

Presumably, he scaled up a bit for this work........it's gotta be tough to
feed a troop of hungry troglodytes on gerbil and vole tenderloins. :)

Wolfgang

[Conan The Librarian]

Wolfgang wrote:

> "Conan The Librarian" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> These days I use 3M "microfinishing film" for final polishing. You can
>>see it at: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33004&cat=1,43072
>
> Back when I did more wood butchery in a shop than in someone's back yard, I
> had two sets of chisels. One set, all steel Mayhews, I let no one else
> touch. If someone needed a chisel I let 'em use the cheap crap. These
> days, alas, I've gotten lax. Now I won't let anyone look at the Mayhews.

As someone who has ... er ... "several" chisels, I can relate. My
old Stanleys 750's are saved for special occasions. My set of recent
vintage Stanleys are loaned to people for opening paint cans, etc. ;-)

>> But be careful if you go to that website. I've seen people go in there
>>and never come back. :-)
>
> After successful completion of a twelve step program, I'm no longer even
> tempted......well, for now, anyway. I got another monkey on my back these
> days.......goddamn the pressman! :(

Six of one ...

Just for fun, you might want to go back to their website and check
out the Veritas line of handplanes. They're ugly as sin, but really
nicely designed. I own ... er ... "several", and I can honestly say
that they have made some actual advancements in plane technology. (No
mean feat, given all the previous failed attempts over the last hundred
years or so.)

>> BTW, Lee Valley has come up with a sharpening guide that addresses lots
>>of the problems associated with them:
>>http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51868&cat=51&ap=6
>
>
> Too many parts. Icky. Assuming it works.....and I'm willing to take that
> on faith.....I still wouldn't be interested. As you know, there's a certain
> sublime satisfaction to be had in doing some things well the old fashioned
> way.

Absolutely. But it is nice to have a guide for heavy stock removal
(i.e., for a nicked bevel or re-establishing a bevel). But that
contraption is a bit Rube Goldberg, no?


Chuck Vance (of course, that's not to say that I don't own one)

[Tom Nakashima]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...
> As you know, there's a certain sublime satisfaction to be had in doing
> some things well the old fashioned way.
>
> Wolfgang

I call them craftsman. I do admire anyone who is proficient (skilled) in
their craft without the use of modern-day tools.
I was riding my bike through the neighborhood a few years ago. There was a
family down the street having bricks laid in their front yard. I stopped
to watched two Mexican men, father and son, lay the bricks by using only a
string tied to two bricks for alignment. They hand no other measuring
devices, as they tapped the bricks in place with a mallet. They let me sight
down the rows of bricks. It was as straight as an arrow. They spoke very
little English, but they told me their craft was handed down by their Father
and Grandfather. I was amazed how they worked with such speed and accuracy.
-tom