How much / what weight backing, for a wide-use 8 weight?

[[email protected]]

Hi all,

I'm normally a trout fisherman, and thus far all the rods I own are 5
weights and under. This Xmas I'll be getting an 8-weight set-up, to
use for, well, basically everything else I come across: stripers or
bluefish out at Montauk (or even from the piers here in NYC), small
barracudas and what have you down in the Keys, the occasional Salmon
trip (for example, out at the Salmon River in Pulaski NY), and Steelies
wherever.

I was looking at getting the Orvis Battenkill Mid Arbor IV reel, which
is listed for 7/8 weights... only, I see that when using an 8-weight
line, I'd only get about 100 yards of 20lb dacron backing.

I've read so much bad stuff about Gel spun being dangerous, and in fact
I already have the bad habit of letting my finger touch the line
occasionally, so I'm thinking I should stick with Dacron. But my
questions are:

Is 20# heavy enough for the uses I mentioned (as opposed to 30lb)?
And, is 100 yards enough?

If the answer is no to either, should I maybe be looking for the next
size up reel, or a different reel altogether?

Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts...

Tim

[Ken Fortenberry]

wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm normally a trout fisherman, and thus far all the rods I own are 5
> weights and under. This Xmas I'll be getting an 8-weight set-up, to
> use for, well, basically everything else I come across: stripers or
> bluefish out at Montauk (or even from the piers here in NYC), small
> barracudas and what have you down in the Keys, the occasional Salmon
> trip (for example, out at the Salmon River in Pulaski NY), and Steelies
> wherever.
> <snip>
>
> Is 20# heavy enough for the uses I mentioned (as opposed to 30lb)?

Yes.

> And, is 100 yards enough?

No, especially for steelhead. A 15 lb. steelie will scream off
100 yards of backing in a New York nanosecond.

> If the answer is no to either, should I maybe be looking for the next
> size up reel, or a different reel altogether?

I'm not familiar with Orvis reels, but if you like the IV
you'll probably like the V.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Tom Nakashima]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm normally a trout fisherman, and thus far all the rods I own are 5
> weights and under. This Xmas I'll be getting an 8-weight set-up, to
> use for, well, basically everything else I come across: stripers or
> bluefish out at Montauk (or even from the piers here in NYC), small
> barracudas and what have you down in the Keys, the occasional Salmon
> trip (for example, out at the Salmon River in Pulaski NY), and Steelies
> wherever.
>
> I was looking at getting the Orvis Battenkill Mid Arbor IV reel, which
> is listed for 7/8 weights... only, I see that when using an 8-weight
> line, I'd only get about 100 yards of 20lb dacron backing.
>
> I've read so much bad stuff about Gel spun being dangerous, and in fact
> I already have the bad habit of letting my finger touch the line
> occasionally, so I'm thinking I should stick with Dacron. But my
> questions are:
>
> Is 20# heavy enough for the uses I mentioned (as opposed to 30lb)?
> And, is 100 yards enough?
>
> If the answer is no to either, should I maybe be looking for the next
> size up reel, or a different reel altogether?
>
> Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts...
>
> Tim
>

Tim,
I was in the same predicament and first purchased the Battenkill Mid Arbor
IV, to have 8WF line put on by Orvis. As they tried to do this they
noticed there just wasn't enough room with the recommended backing. With
the line full, it was interfering with the frame. Orvis was very kind in
letting me trade the Battenkill Mid Arbor IV for the Battenikill Mid Arbor V
for the same price. Since the IV was on sale and the V was not, I told
them I was happy to pay more, but they told me it was their mistake and this
was the way they take care of their customers. There was no problem with
the V holding the 8WF line and backing.
The Orvis dealer I was dealing with is in Palo Alto and the manager is
Steve, there number is: (650) 322-4900
-tom

[[email protected]]

What about 150 yards? I just spoke to a guy at my local Orvis shop,
and he says that those listings are wrong, and he regularly spools 150
yards of 20# backing onto these with, say, bonefish lines. (And more
if you're using something smaller, like an intermediate).

[[email protected]]

Tom - Did you / do you feel that the V balances fine with your 8-weight
rod? It's not too... weighty?

[JR]

wrote:
>
> I've read so much bad stuff about Gel spun being dangerous, and in fact
> I already have the bad habit of letting my finger touch the line
> occasionally, so I'm thinking I should stick with Dacron.

I've had 20# gelspun backing on my summer steelhead reel for years.
Folks make it sound like a spinning saw blade, just waiting to take your
finger off..... kind of silly, IMO. I wouldn't clamp down hard on the
backing when it's going out, but very lightly brushing or touching it
isn't a problem. Anyway, by the time a running fish has taken all your
line out and is still going strong, your off hand has no business still
being anywhere near the face of the reel.... It's something that's easy
to learn.

If it worries you, though, I can't think of any reason not to go with
the larger reel. 6.6oz as opposed to 6.2oz is next to nothing for the
type of fishing you'll be doing.

JR

[Ken Fortenberry]

wrote:
> What about 150 yards? I just spoke to a guy at my local Orvis shop,
> and he says that those listings are wrong, and he regularly spools 150
> yards of 20# backing onto these with, say, bonefish lines. (And more
> if you're using something smaller, like an intermediate).

If it was me I'd just opt for the bigger reel.

Imagine you had the fish of a lifetime on and you had to
watch helplessly as the backing, and the fish, disappeared.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[[email protected]]

Yes, I agree. For all my lawn casting of rods, and playing with reels
in the stores, once I get out on the water I never really think about
them. But -- though it doesn't happen much -- when that line is
running out and you're staring at the dwindling backing, there's
nothing you're thinking of more. In fact the entire world is reduced
to whether or not you've got that extra 50 yards you need... (I've
never run out yet, but I've come painfully close.)

I think I'll go for the V. Thanks for all the advice, and thanks for
the direct report, Tom.

Tim

[Dave LaCourse]

On 1 Dec 2005 07:04:12 -0800, wrote:

>I was looking at getting the Orvis Battenkill Mid Arbor IV reel, which
>is listed for 7/8 weights... only, I see that when using an 8-weight
>line, I'd only get about 100 yards of 20lb dacron backing.
>
>I've read so much bad stuff about Gel spun being dangerous, and in fact
>I already have the bad habit of letting my finger touch the line
>occasionally, so I'm thinking I should stick with Dacron. But my
>questions are:
>
>Is 20# heavy enough for the uses I mentioned (as opposed to 30lb)?
>And, is 100 yards enough?
>
>If the answer is no to either, should I maybe be looking for the next
>size up reel, or a different reel altogether?
>
>Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts...

I have an Orvis Mid Arbor III that I use on a 6 wt travel rod. Nice
reel, but not as nice as a Lamson. I use a Lamson 3.5 Velocity on a 7
weight to fish for anything from Chinook and Steelies in Ontario, to
29 inch Rainbows in Russia, and 30 inch Rainbows in Alaska as well as
every type of Pacific Salmon. Coupled with my 4 piece Sagge travel
rod, it is a combination that is tough to beat. An 8 weight would
probably serve you better, however, with salt water species.

Look at the Lamson 3.5 V.

Dave

[[email protected]]

The Lamson looks nice, but it's also a good bit more expensive.
(Trying to keep the cost on the reel part of this down.)

Tell me this: assuming I do get the V, that should give me plenty of
room for backing. Should I then be thinking 30#, just in case,
because, why not? Or is it really going to be better to stick with
20#, and use the extra room for extra length?

[JR]

wrote:
>
> Tell me this: assuming I do get the V, that should give me plenty of
> room for backing. Should I then be thinking 30#, just in case,
> because, why not?

Will you be using leader/tippet stronger than 20#?

[Wayne Harrison]

"JR" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>>
>> Tell me this: assuming I do get the V, that should give me plenty of
>> room for backing. Should I then be thinking 30#, just in case,
>> because, why not?
>
> Will you be using leader/tippet stronger than 20#?

excellent response, and zen-like to boot...

yfitons
wayno

[[email protected]]

Answer: I don't know. This if my first "big" rod, and so I'm not sure
exactly what I'll eventually be using it for.

Thus far, the heaviest I've ever gone was 12# tippet, with Salmon up at
Pulaski. But, I'm really no expert on it, and I certainly know nothing
about, say, fishing for stripers out at Montauk. (A good friend of
mine just bought a place, so I'm hoping to get out there a lot next
year). I guess I'd put the question back to you as: would an 8-weight
rod ever be used, when fishing for something that would require 20#
tippet?

And, another question: is that the proper ratio - meaning, 20# tippet =
20# backing? I've seen in previous posts people recommending more like
a 12# max tippet = 20# backing, and heavier tippet should use heavier
backing. (Which, I don't know, makes some dumb intuitive sense to me.
In that, tippet size is constrained by keeping the line small enough to
fool fish. Whereas backing is just a matter of how much you can fit on
the reel. Right?)

[Tom Nakashima]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Answer: I don't know. This if my first "big" rod, and so I'm not sure
> exactly what I'll eventually be using it for.
>
> Thus far, the heaviest I've ever gone was 12# tippet, with Salmon up at
> Pulaski. But, I'm really no expert on it, and I certainly know nothing
> about, say, fishing for stripers out at Montauk. (A good friend of
> mine just bought a place, so I'm hoping to get out there a lot next
> year). I guess I'd put the question back to you as: would an 8-weight
> rod ever be used, when fishing for something that would require 20#
> tippet?
>
> And, another question: is that the proper ratio - meaning, 20# tippet =
> 20# backing? I've seen in previous posts people recommending more like
> a 12# max tippet = 20# backing, and heavier tippet should use heavier
> backing. (Which, I don't know, makes some dumb intuitive sense to me.
> In that, tippet size is constrained by keeping the line small enough to
> fool fish. Whereas backing is just a matter of how much you can fit on
> the reel. Right?)
>


The orvis guide to the Battenkill Large Arbor V
-tom

http://www.orvis.com/detail.asp?subject=812&index=4&dir_id=&cat_id=&group_id=

[Charlie Choc]

On 1 Dec 2005 10:16:54 -0800, wrote:

> Whereas backing is just a matter of how much you can fit on
>the reel. Right?)

If something breaks you want the tippet to break before the backing, otherwise
you risk losing your fly line.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

[Dave LaCourse]

On 1 Dec 2005 10:01:40 -0800, wrote:

>The Lamson looks nice, but it's also a good bit more expensive.
>(Trying to keep the cost on the reel part of this down.)

Not that much more, really. And you are getting a much better reel,
especially for bigger fish.

>
>Tell me this: assuming I do get the V, that should give me plenty of
>room for backing. Should I then be thinking 30#, just in case,
>because, why not? Or is it really going to be better to stick with
>20#, and use the extra room for extra length?

I see no reason to go bigger than 20#. Remember, in any set up, your
tippet is your weakest link, as JR has so Zen-like pointed out.

Dave

[daytripper]

On 1 Dec 2005 10:01:40 -0800, wrote:

>The Lamson looks nice, but it's also a good bit more expensive.
>(Trying to keep the cost on the reel part of this down.)
>
>Tell me this: assuming I do get the V, that should give me plenty of
>room for backing. Should I then be thinking 30#, just in case,
>because, why not? Or is it really going to be better to stick with
>20#, and use the extra room for extra length?

Looks like one side of the question is under-represented to this point.
So I'll be the contrarian:
If you can get 300 yards of backing on the reel using 30#, go with 30#.

Given what you intend to fish for - or more to the point - over, I'd
definitely go with the 30# Micron for greater abrasion resistance.

Barracuda usually live in reefs. Reefs are brutal on flyfishing gear as it is.
30# backing might save you a pricey fly line. And flats fishing puts your line
near all kinds of shallow water hazards - it doesn't take coral for that to be
a problem, either.

cheers

/daytripper

[Mu Young Lee]

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, wrote:

> use for, well, basically everything else I come across: stripers or
> bluefish out at Montauk (or even from the piers here in NYC), small
> barracudas and what have you down in the Keys, the occasional Salmon
> trip (for example, out at the Salmon River in Pulaski NY), and Steelies
> wherever.
>
> I was looking at getting the Orvis Battenkill Mid Arbor IV reel, which
> is listed for 7/8 weights... only, I see that when using an 8-weight
> line, I'd only get about 100 yards of 20lb dacron backing.
>
> I've read so much bad stuff about Gel spun being dangerous, and in fact
> I already have the bad habit of letting my finger touch the line
> occasionally, so I'm thinking I should stick with Dacron. But my
> questions are:
>
> Is 20# heavy enough for the uses I mentioned (as opposed to 30lb)?
> And, is 100 yards enough?

I think 20#/100 yards is fine for salmon and steelhead in New York rivers.
Once a fish is 130 yards away from me on the river I would attempt to just
simply break it off. The only place this might not apply is some very
large waters like the the Niagara River.

For sal****er I would recommend 30# for a simple reason that 20# tippet is
not out of the question for certain sal****er fishing situations.

I have used GSP backing for sal****er fishing but not for very speedy fish
(I think bluefish and stripers would be OK though albacore might be
troublesome - I just don't know). But you should realize that people fish
for tuna using conventional gear and GSP lines. This heavyweight
sal****er gear does not have a level wind mechanism; anglers wind on the
line evenly using their fingers. I wear a finger wrap called Flex Wrap to
protect my fingers whether using GSP or not when fishing the salt because
even the fly line cuts into my fingers from the repetitive stripping that
is required.

For GSP I have used PowerPro because it has a coating that is smooth (less
abrasive on than some other types of GSP lines). If you want to cover all
your bases, I'd second Tripper's recommendation to get a reel that holds
200+ yards of 30# backing. For inshore sal****er I think even 100 yards
is OK. I say buy the reel that is best suited for the type of fishing you
do most often. For those more exotic venues get a guide and use his
equipment.

Mu

[[email protected]]

Not to beat this to death, but, to make the choice simple --

>From my (very rough) calculations, I can get about 200 yards at 20#,
versus about 150 yards at 30#.

Votes?

[Mu Young Lee]

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, wrote:

> Not to beat this to death, but, to make the choice simple --
>
>> From my (very rough) calculations, I can get about 200 yards at 20#,
> versus about 150 yards at 30#.

150yd/30#
Mu

[MajorOz]

daytripper wrote:

>
> Looks like one side of the question is under-represented to this point.
> So I'll be the contrarian:
> If you can get 300 yards of backing on the reel using 30#, go with 30#.
>
> Given what you intend to fish for - or more to the point - over, I'd
> definitely go with the 30# Micron for greater abrasion resistance.
>
> Barracuda usually live in reefs. Reefs are brutal on flyfishing gear as it is.
> 30# backing might save you a pricey fly line. And flats fishing puts your line
> near all kinds of shallow water hazards - it doesn't take coral for that to be
> a problem, either.

I have been out of the tech end of the tackle for some time, and wonder
why the (pardon the expression) bass fisherman's "spider line" isn't
used for backing. It is so much thinner, for a given test, than
dacron. Or is that what the Gel stuff is?

I spent two years in Micronesia with the Peace Corps (living on the
beach -- dirty job, but soemone had to do it) in the mid-90's. I had
the only fly rod on the island. The locals laughed themselves silly
when they saw me "beating the fish". But when I started giving the
village as many trevally (Jack Crevalle) as they could carry, the kids
began "beating the fish" with string tied to sticks.
....anyway...caught a lot of baraccuda, on the little green 'cuda
killers I tied up, using a home built 9ft. salmon rod in 9wt with 6in.
extension butt and an old 3 to 1 Martin #72.
14 in of stainless leader made casting kind of sloppy, but the cuda
didn't seem to care, and I was wading wet, wearing reef walkers (swim
fin booties with rigid soles). Reef cuda up to 20 lb. didn't seem to
tear me off much, but they were C&R anyway. Blue water cuda (paddle
trolling with the same gear) were immediately thin sliced and dipped in
soya, lime, and wasabe -- just as good as yellow fin.

cheers

oz, who went into PC at the tender age of 55

[Daniel-San]

"MajorOz" wrote...

>
> I have been out of the tech end of the tackle for some time, and wonder
> why the (pardon the expression) bass fisherman's "spider line" isn't
> used for backing. It is so much thinner, for a given test, than
> dacron. Or is that what the Gel stuff is?
> cheers
>

Kind of wondering that myself. I've been using it for a couple years now
with no issues (no really big fish, either...) I have at least 200 yds of
50# Spider Wire as my backing. Why? I had it in the house. It may be the
worst thing in the world, but I haven't seen anything yet to lead me to
believe that.

Dan
Who has less than zero clue what 'gel stuff' means.

[MajorOz]

> Dan
> Who has less than zero clue what 'gel stuff' means.

The "Gel spun" referred to in some of the above posts.

cheers

oz

[Dave LaCourse]

On 1 Dec 2005 20:43:13 -0800, wrote:

>Not to beat this to death, but, to make the choice simple --
>
>>From my (very rough) calculations, I can get about 200 yards at 20#,
>versus about 150 yards at 30#.
>
>Votes?


Paper or plastic? Same thing. Same choice. The LEADER is your
weakest link, not your backing. I've had most of my backing out on 6,
7, and 8 weights with either salmon, big rainbows, or northern pike.
If I didn't land the fish it was because the leader/tippet broke.
With all your line and most of your backing out, the drag is
tremendous and chances are your leader *will* break before you can
land the fish. *Most* of the time you never get into your backing, so
why worry about it. And, btw, leaders really take a beating when they
are dragged around coral and rocks. Again, they will fray and break
long before your backing will. *And* let us not forget knots. They
also are weak spots in the rigging.

No "zen", just lots of experience.

Paper or plastic?

d;o)

[Mike Connor]

With regard to the gel-spun material, I think the general bias against it,
is due to much of the first production stuff being quite dangerous. The
newer surface fused material is a lot nicer to handle. Also, the diameters
of the backing are not so critical with gelspun. Indeed at anywhere near the
diameter of "normal" backing, the stuff is just about unbreakable.

Some of the new material is also very good shooting line. I have only tried
a couple up to now, but they are much better than nylon monofil or similar.

TL
MC

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> Not to beat this to death, but, to make the choice simple --
>
> >From my (very rough) calculations, I can get about 200 yards at 20#,
> versus about 150 yards at 30#.
>
> Votes?


Dave LaCourse suggested a Lamson Velocity 3.5. I use Lamson Litespeed
3.5's,
reels with almost the same capacity. I have about 140-150 yards of
30# backing
on the reels. I use a 10 wt single-handed rod for some of my striped
bass fishing.
I use leaders that are rated betw 15 and 20 lb test. My goal is to be
able to bring
in most fish reasonably quickly.

If I were in your place, I would up the rod to a 9 wt and get a reel
that will hold at
least 150 yds of 30# backing. I'm not sure where you fish on Montauk,
but there
is a fair amount of rock out there and, with some luck, some
good-sized fish to
catch.

Since we fish for big fish but usually catch schoolies, my brother
switched to a
7/8 for a year or so. Finally he hooked into a decent fish, a 38 inch
striped bass.
He had to fight it for a good 30 minutes: he didn't want to break it
off with a clouser
and a long leader in its mouth. He was at the end of his backing
several times and
would have lost the fish if he wasn't on a flat and able to walk after
it a few times. It
took a good while to revive the bass to the point that it could swim
off. If you plan
to release fish, it would be good to go with a heavier rod.

[...and if down the road yu

[[email protected]]

..... and if down the road you have/decide to spend more money, take a
look at
2-handed overhead-casting fly rods....

[briansfly]

wrote:
> Not to beat this to death, but, to make the choice simple --
>
>>From my (very rough) calculations, I can get about 200 yards at 20#,
> versus about 150 yards at 30#.
>
> Votes?
>

150 yards of 30lbs.

Like a couple others have pointed out, 30 lb backing will be better in
certain situations. I would opt for the larger reel, and 30lb backing,
OR go with the gelspun backing. You may want to research different knots
when using gelspun. The line is very slick, and doesn't hold well with
certain, traditional knots. Nail knotting the backing to the flyline may
cause failures(backing cutting into, and stripping off, the outer fly
line coating).

brians

[Mu Young Lee]

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, briansfly wrote:

> with the gelspun backing. You may want to research different knots when using
> gelspun. The line is very slick, and doesn't hold well with certain,
> traditional knots. Nail knotting the backing to the flyline may cause
> failures(backing cutting into, and stripping off, the outer fly line
> coating).

I use a Bimini Twist to double up the GSP line. Then tie an Albright to
connect the GSP to the fly line. Need to be very careful and make sure
that all of the Albright wraps lay parallel and as you tighten up the knot
make sure that the tension is as evenly distributed over the wraps as
possible. Then I use a toothpick to apply a thin layer of Aquaseal to the
knot. If you use a thin layer then the surface tension keeps the Aquaseal
from running while you wait for it to cure. Pliobond is just not as tough
as Aquaseal and when you're fishing the salt the additional strength is
welcome.

Mu