Re: Merry Christmas!

[Karl S]

Jonathan Cook wrote:
> Well I guess it's now old-fashioned to say that, but
> some of you might get a smile from the link below, while
> others...might not. It's twice the fun if you know
> Baxter Black's voice, but if not just pick your
> favorite cowpoke twang as you read it.
>
> http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/baxter.shtml
>
> (it's a Christmas editorial for now, I don't know if it
> will change soon.)
>
> Jon.

And a Merry Christmas to you as well!

Some would say "Season's Greetings" or "Happy Holidays", but if there
was no Christmas I really don't think there would be any widely popular
holidays in December at all. So much for a season of them.

Where's the ad RW mentioned? Maybe my browser blocked it. I sure don't
see it.

Karl S.

[Dave LaCourse]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:41:37 -0800, Karl S
> wrote:

>And a Merry Christmas to you as well!
>
>Some would say "Season's Greetings" or "Happy Holidays", but if there
>was no Christmas I really don't think there would be any widely popular
>holidays in December at all. So much for a season of them.

Holidays is derived from Holy Days. So, if you don't believe in a
diety (especially Jesus Christ), there is no sense in saying Happy
Holidays.

Merry Christmas to you and yours, Karl, and wishes for a Prosperous
and Happy New Year.

Dave

[Stan Gula]

> Jonathan Cook wrote:
>> Well I guess it's now old-fashioned to say that

Nonsense. It has always been acceptable for anybody to wish people a happy
holidy of their choice. The pundits saying otherwise are rabble rousing
(and pretty successfully, too).

>
Karl S wrote:
> And a Merry Christmas to you as well!
>
> Some would say "Season's Greetings" or "Happy Holidays", but if there
> was no Christmas I really don't think there would be any widely
> popular holidays in December at all. So much for a season of them.

I call bull****.
Here's some details:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

The Roman Saturnalia celebration predates Christianity, and the Romans
actually stole (errr, adopted) the idea from the Greeks who called it
Sacaea. And the Greeks stole it from Babylon where it was called Zagmuk.
The solstice was celebrated in Babylon 4,000 years before Christ and a lot
of the 'Christmas traditions' have been handed down from the ancient past.
Note that Zagmuk is very similar to Zagnut, a wicked fine candy bar, which
has been made for over 75 years which predates most of us. Not that that
relates to Christmas at all, except that if somebody wanted to buy me a
reasonable priced candy bar for a present, well, hint, hint, wink, wink.

Gonna open a nice bottle of port tomorrow to toast "Longer Days!".
--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps

[Wolfgang]

"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
news:_%%pf.4368$u36.627@trndny01...
>> Jonathan Cook wrote:
>>> Well I guess it's now old-fashioned to say that
>
> Nonsense. It has always been acceptable for anybody to wish people a
> happy
> holidy of their choice. The pundits saying otherwise are rabble rousing
> (and pretty successfully, too).
>
>>
> Karl S wrote:
>> And a Merry Christmas to you as well!
>>
>> Some would say "Season's Greetings" or "Happy Holidays", but if there
>> was no Christmas I really don't think there would be any widely
>> popular holidays in December at all. So much for a season of them.
>
> I call bull****.
> Here's some details:
> http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm
>
> The Roman Saturnalia celebration predates Christianity, and the Romans
> actually stole (errr, adopted) the idea from the Greeks who called it
> Sacaea. And the Greeks stole it from Babylon where it was called Zagmuk.
> The solstice was celebrated in Babylon 4,000 years before Christ and a lot
> of the 'Christmas traditions' have been handed down from the ancient past.

And then there's the Chinese and the Meso-Americans.....and many
others.....all of whom were well aware of and celebrated the solstice for
thousands of years before some quasimythical upstart megalomaniacal
messianic carpenter of unknown parentage and birth date (not to mention
basic reality) got mistaken for something else.

> Note that Zagmuk is very similar to Zagnut, a wicked fine candy bar, which
> has been made for over 75 years which predates most of us. Not that that
> relates to Christmas at all, except that if somebody wanted to buy me a
> reasonable priced candy bar for a present, well, hint, hint, wink, wink.

I'd send you one but......well, you know how it goes.

> Gonna open a nice bottle of port tomorrow to toast "Longer Days!".

Ah! A splendid idea!

Uh oh......just checked.....no port in the house. Oh well, sherry will have
to do. I raise my glass to you and yours, and to all our fellow travelers
on the road to peace, good health........and sanity. :)

Wolfgang

[Karl S]

Stan Gula wrote:
>
> I call bull****.
> Here's some details:
> http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm
>
> The Roman Saturnalia celebration predates Christianity, and the Romans
> actually stole (errr, adopted) the idea from the Greeks who called it
> Sacaea. And the Greeks stole it from Babylon where it was called Zagmuk.
> The solstice was celebrated in Babylon 4,000 years before Christ and a lot
> of the 'Christmas traditions' have been handed down from the ancient past.
> Note that Zagmuk is very similar to Zagnut, a wicked fine candy bar, which
> has been made for over 75 years which predates most of us. Not that that
> relates to Christmas at all, except that if somebody wanted to buy me a
> reasonable priced candy bar for a present, well, hint, hint, wink, wink.
>
> Gonna open a nice bottle of port tomorrow to toast "Longer Days!".

I said "widely popular holidays", Stan.

What percentage of the world today celebrates Saturnalia? Sacaea?
Zagmuk? The Solstice? The most popular runner-up would be Chanukah or
Hanukkah, whichever spelling you prefer, but that is a rather minor
celebration of the Jewish faith which is widely recognized only because
it occurs in the same part of the year as Christmas.
Forgotten celebrations to dead religions really don't count as a basis
for a holiday season.
It doesn't even really matter that Christmas is near the solstice.
If Christmas happened in July, the holiday season would be in July.
And December would be only a time of waiting for New Year's Day.

Karl S.

[vincent p. norris]

>The solstice was celebrated in Babylon 4,000 years before Christ and a lot
>of the 'Christmas traditions' have been handed down from the ancient past.

If it's good enough for Druids
Running nekkid through the wuids,
Drinking strange fermented fluids,
Then it's good enough for me!

A salutary and salubrious solstice, 'specially with a soupcon of
silliness, to one and all!

[Thomas Littleton]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message

> If it's good enough for Druids
> Running nekkid through the wuids,
> Drinking strange fermented fluids,
> Then it's good enough for me!
>
> A salutary and salubrious solstice, 'specially with a soupcon of
> silliness, to one and all!

Likewise to you, Vince!!! Thanks for the chuckle.....
Tom

[Wolfgang]

"Karl S" > wrote in message
...
> Stan Gula wrote:
>>
>> I call bull****.
>> Here's some details:
>> http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm
>>
>> The Roman Saturnalia celebration predates Christianity, and the Romans
>> actually stole (errr, adopted) the idea from the Greeks who called it
>> Sacaea. And the Greeks stole it from Babylon where it was called Zagmuk.
>> The solstice was celebrated in Babylon 4,000 years before Christ and a
>> lot
>> of the 'Christmas traditions' have been handed down from the ancient
>> past.
>> Note that Zagmuk is very similar to Zagnut, a wicked fine candy bar,
>> which
>> has been made for over 75 years which predates most of us. Not that that
>> relates to Christmas at all, except that if somebody wanted to buy me a
>> reasonable priced candy bar for a present, well, hint, hint, wink, wink.
>>
>> Gonna open a nice bottle of port tomorrow to toast "Longer Days!".
>
> I said "widely popular holidays", Stan.
>
> What percentage of the world today celebrates Saturnalia? Sacaea? Zagmuk?
> The Solstice? The most popular runner-up would be Chanukah or Hanukkah,
> whichever spelling you prefer, but that is a rather minor celebration of
> the Jewish faith which is widely recognized only because it occurs in the
> same part of the year as Christmas.
> Forgotten celebrations to dead religions really don't count as a basis for
> a holiday season.
> It doesn't even really matter that Christmas is near the solstice.
> If Christmas happened in July, the holiday season would be in July.
> And December would be only a time of waiting for New Year's Day.

You sort of missed the point, Karl. Christmas couldn't happen in
July......the winter solstice......get it? Most of the world pays attention
to the winter solstice in one way or another, and celebrates Saturnalia,
Sacaea, Zagmuk, Christmas, Chanukah or whatever.......and has since
antiquity.....they just change the name and the idols periodically. The
Christians merely borrowed from a variety of creation myths (as did the
Jews.....and the Romans......and others.....before them) and stuck some of
their own window dressing on it. Their major problem was that they weren't
real good with calendars........or at making up their minds for that matter.
They missed the solstice.....and they still can't decide whether or not they
like the vernal equinox (about the timing of which they are equally
uncertain).....the whole death and rebirth (resurrection, blah, blah....you
know, Easter) better than the solstice. See, the old year dies.....cosmic
significance and all that.....right? But when does it begin anew?
Hm......is it when they days start to get longer?......or is it when the
grass starts to grow again? Well, what the hell......let's start it both
times! Can't lose! :)

Wolfgang
i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
important birthday?

[rw]

Wolfgang wrote:

> i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
> important birthday?

Sir Isaac Newton was born on December 25.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

In article >,
says...
> Some would say "Season's Greetings" or "Happy Holidays", but if there
> was no Christmas I really don't think there would be any widely popular
> holidays in December at all. So much for a season of them.

Time to brush up on your cause and effect.....

Christmas is in December because christians attempted (succeeded in?) to
steal the highly popular pagan winter solstice festivals. Which is why
we have christmas trees and yule logs.

BTW, all the best holidays came from the pagans. Easter, Christmas,
Halloween.
- Ken

In article >,
says...
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:41:37 -0800, Karl S
> > wrote:
>
> >And a Merry Christmas to you as well!
> >
> >Some would say "Season's Greetings" or "Happy Holidays", but if there
> >was no Christmas I really don't think there would be any widely popular
> >holidays in December at all. So much for a season of them.
>
> Holidays is derived from Holy Days. So, if you don't believe in a
> diety (especially Jesus Christ), there is no sense in saying Happy
> Holidays.

The original holy days were all associated with the sun and the moon.
Solstices and equinoxes were very important holy days. One doesn't even
need to believe in a diety to have holy days in a farming society. Only
those who have lost touch with the original meanings need the crutch of
a diety.
- Ken

[rw]

wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>Some would say "Season's Greetings" or "Happy Holidays", but if there
>>was no Christmas I really don't think there would be any widely popular
>>holidays in December at all. So much for a season of them.
>
>
> Time to brush up on your cause and effect.....
>
> Christmas is in December because christians attempted (succeeded in?) to
> steal the highly popular pagan winter solstice festivals. Which is why
> we have christmas trees and yule logs.

Christmas has become primarily a secular holiday, and a very expensive
one. In fact, it's become a parody of mindless consumerism, to the point
that a good retail Christmas season is vital for the economy. Is there
ever a time of year when more money is spent on stuff that no one will
ever use? If I were a Christian I wouldn't want the name of the Son of
God even to be associated with it.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[[email protected]]

rw wrote:

> Christmas has become primarily a secular holiday, and a very expensive
> one.

Yea, and it makes me laugh to hear all these right wingers go after
walmart for not saying "merry christmas." Yea, that's a great idea..
let's make Christmas even MORE commercial. I'm sure they'd be so happy
if walmart used Jesus in their advertising.

[Cyli]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:41:37 -0800, Karl S
> wrote:

>And a Merry Christmas to you as well!
>
>Some would say "Season's Greetings" or "Happy Holidays", but if there
>was no Christmas I really don't think there would be any widely popular
>holidays in December at all. So much for a season of them.
>
>Where's the ad RW mentioned? Maybe my browser blocked it. I sure don't
>see it.

The ad was for a Website pushing a book. It's at:

http://www.outrageousmastery.com/

For a book that seems to be about Christian prayer power, all I see is
testimonials from the kind of people who ask for things only for
themselves and their immediate families, mostly money, with a side
glance at health.

You might want to learn the history of some other religions.

The solstice has been celebrated in many countries for many religions.
I think it would have been more appropriate to have put the
crucifixion and resurrection at the winter solstice and the birth
thing at Easter. The church probably would have, but for the Gospels
mentioning the whole crucifixion coming around Passover. It may be
when Christians celebrate the birth of Christ, but I've not seen a
single Biblical scholar agree that he was born at this season. Not
that that matters to a religious holiday. Or even an ordinary
birthday. If you want to celebrate your birthday on the first of
October, go for it. Regardless of what your birth certificate says.
That will become your de facto birthday, except in legal matters, like
your driver's license and when you can collect social security.

Were it not for Christmas, we'd be celebrating a Druidic or Mithran or
Wiccan holiday then, if not one to the old Roman gods.

I have tried go to Happy Holidays to everyone except family many years
ago as a greeting. I have no idea what religion some of the people I
know are and simply hope that if I goof and wish a Jewish or Wiccan or
agnostic or atheist friend a Merry Christmas, they'll take it in a
forgiving spirit (or say, "I always knew she wasn't sharp enough to
notice."). But I'm aware that I'll be closer to the mark if I go with
Happy Holidays. One of which is New Year's Day. Not exactly a
Christian holiday the last I heard.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: (strip the .invalid to email)

[Wolfgang]

"rw" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Wolfgang wrote:
>
>> i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
>> important birthday?
>
> Sir Isaac Newton was born on December 25.

And?

Wolfgang

[Charlie Choc]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 05:37:44 GMT, rw > wrote:

wrote:
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>
>>>Some would say "Season's Greetings" or "Happy Holidays", but if there
>>>was no Christmas I really don't think there would be any widely popular
>>>holidays in December at all. So much for a season of them.
>>
>>
>> Time to brush up on your cause and effect.....
>>
>> Christmas is in December because christians attempted (succeeded in?) to
>> steal the highly popular pagan winter solstice festivals. Which is why
>> we have christmas trees and yule logs.
>
>Christmas has become primarily a secular holiday, and a very expensive
>one. In fact, it's become a parody of mindless consumerism, to the point
>that a good retail Christmas season is vital for the economy. Is there
>ever a time of year when more money is spent on stuff that no one will
>ever use? If I were a Christian I wouldn't want the name of the Son of
>God even to be associated with it.

Since Christmas is on Sunday this year a couple of the largest churches in the
Atlanta area will be closed so their employees and parishioners can celebrate
"in their own way".
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

[George Cleveland]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:27:44 -0800, > wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>> Some would say "Season's Greetings" or "Happy Holidays", but if there
>> was no Christmas I really don't think there would be any widely popular
>> holidays in December at all. So much for a season of them.
>
>Time to brush up on your cause and effect.....
>
>Christmas is in December because christians attempted (succeeded in?) to
>steal the highly popular pagan winter solstice festivals. Which is why
>we have christmas trees and yule logs.
>
>BTW, all the best holidays came from the pagans. Easter, Christmas,
>Halloween.
> - Ken


Mayday!

"Hooray hooray its the first of May
Outdoor screwing begins today".

Or is that just a Norwegian thing?

g.c.

Who wishes people good-bye even though he doesn't necessarily think
that God will be with them and who goes to work on Thursday with very
seldom a thought to Thor and who bets that when the Brits go on
holiday they spend very little of it praying.

[Stan Gula]

vincent p. norris wrote:
> If it's good enough for Druids
> Running nekkid through the wuids,
> Drinking strange fermented fluids,
> Then it's good enough for me!
>
> A salutary and salubrious solstice, 'specially with a soupcon of
> silliness, to one and all!

Thanks for that, Vince! One of my favorites!
--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps

[Wolfgang]

"George Cleveland" > wrote in message
...


> Mayday!
>
> "Hooray hooray its the first of May
> Outdoor screwing begins today".
>
> Or is that just a Norwegian thing?

Nah, it's one of those high latitude thingies.......wherever the livestock
is brought indoors to survive harsh winters....... :)

> g.c.
>
> Who wishes people good-bye even though he doesn't necessarily think
> that God will be with them and who goes to work on Thursday with very
> seldom a thought to Thor and who bets that when the Brits go on
> holiday they spend very little of it praying.

Gesundheit!

Wolfgang

[rw]

Wolfgang wrote:
> "rw" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>
>>Wolfgang wrote:
>>
>>
>>>i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
>>>important birthday?
>>
>>Sir Isaac Newton was born on December 25.
>
>
> And?

And Jimmy Buffett.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[Charlie Choc]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:32:06 GMT, rw > wrote:

>Wolfgang wrote:
>> "rw" > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>>
>>>Wolfgang wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
>>>>important birthday?
>>>
>>>Sir Isaac Newton was born on December 25.
>>
>>
>> And?
>
>And Jimmy Buffett.

And Little Richard.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

[Stan Gula]

Charlie Choc wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:32:06 GMT, rw
> > wrote:
>
>> Wolfgang wrote:
>>> "rw" > wrote in message
>>> nk.net...
>>>
>>>> Wolfgang wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th
>>>>> marks an important birthday?
>>>>
>>>> Sir Isaac Newton was born on December 25.
>>>
>>>
>>> And?
>>
>> And Jimmy Buffett.
>
> And Little Richard.

And Karl Rove.

Hell, why pussyfoot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_25
--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps

[Scott Seidman]

"Stan Gula" > wrote in news:rReqf.1105$JP1.816
@trndny03:

> And Karl Rove.
>
> Hell, why pussyfoot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_25
> --
> Stan Gula
> http://gula.org/roffswaps
>
>


I share a B'day w/ two Monkees!

Wow, that wikipedia is some project.

It should probably say "Don't Panic" on the homepage
--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

[Wolfgang]

"rw" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Wolfgang wrote:
>> "rw" > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>>
>>>Wolfgang wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
>>>>important birthday?
>>>
>>>Sir Isaac Newton was born on December 25.
>>
>>
>> And?
>
> And Jimmy Buffett.

And the conclusion we are to draw from these stupendous research findings
is........?

I mean, the odds are we'd have had bad music.....and possibly even
gravity.....by now, even if they'd been born on some other day of the
year.....or even if neither of them had ever existed at all......right?

Wolfgang
not a wholehearted subscriber to the great man theory.

[rw]

Wolfgang wrote:
>
> And the conclusion we are to draw from these stupendous research findings
> is........?

That you're a humorless, dyspeptic douche bag.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[Wolfgang]

"rw" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Wolfgang wrote:
>>
>> And the conclusion we are to draw from these stupendous research findings
>> is........?
>
> That you're a humorless, dyspeptic douche bag.

HEY WILLI!, Stevie's being unpleasant!

Wolfgang
shouldn't you be doing something about that? :)

[Mike Connor]

A merry Christmas to all, and a very gay New Year of course!

TL
MC

[Ken Fortenberry]

Mike Connor wrote:
> A merry Christmas to all,

You too, Mike. And a Happy Solstice too.

> and a very gay New Year of course!

Yeah, you should keep your gay crap to yourself from
now on.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[David Snedeker]

"Cyli" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:41:37 -0800, Karl S
> > wrote:
>


Well, actually Jesus IS the old Roman God, who kicked the **** out of the
older Roman Gods.

Dave
If Roman historical reference had anything to do with what the main
Christian holiday would be, setting fires in apartment houses might rank
pretty high.

[Mike Connor]

"Ken Fortenberry" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
m...
>SNIP>
> Yeah, you should keep your gay crap to yourself from
> now on.
>
> --
> Ken Fortenberry

You never heard of sharing?

Nevertheless, probably a good idea. I was unable to explain my views
sensibly anyway. I was still rather surprised at your extreme reaction.

Tolerance is basically a measure of how much intolerance one can tolerate.
Not even sure if that makes sense either! :)

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

"David Snedeker" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
. ..
<SNIP>
> Dave
> If Roman historical reference had anything to do with what the main
> Christian holiday would be, setting fires in apartment houses might rank
> pretty high.
>
>

At least one has the consolation that the powers that be are always
fiddling.

TL
MC

[Karl S]

Wolfgang wrote:
> "Karl S" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Stan Gula wrote:
>>
>>>I call bull****.
>>>Here's some details:
>>>http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm
>>>
>>>The Roman Saturnalia celebration predates Christianity, and the Romans
>>>actually stole (errr, adopted) the idea from the Greeks who called it
>>>Sacaea. And the Greeks stole it from Babylon where it was called Zagmuk.
>>>The solstice was celebrated in Babylon 4,000 years before Christ and a
>>>lot
>>>of the 'Christmas traditions' have been handed down from the ancient
>>>past.
>>>Note that Zagmuk is very similar to Zagnut, a wicked fine candy bar,
>>>which
>>>has been made for over 75 years which predates most of us. Not that that
>>>relates to Christmas at all, except that if somebody wanted to buy me a
>>>reasonable priced candy bar for a present, well, hint, hint, wink, wink.
>>>
>>>Gonna open a nice bottle of port tomorrow to toast "Longer Days!".
>>
>>I said "widely popular holidays", Stan.
>>
>>What percentage of the world today celebrates Saturnalia? Sacaea? Zagmuk?
>>The Solstice? The most popular runner-up would be Chanukah or Hanukkah,
>>whichever spelling you prefer, but that is a rather minor celebration of
>>the Jewish faith which is widely recognized only because it occurs in the
>>same part of the year as Christmas.
>>Forgotten celebrations to dead religions really don't count as a basis for
>>a holiday season.
>>It doesn't even really matter that Christmas is near the solstice.
>>If Christmas happened in July, the holiday season would be in July.
>>And December would be only a time of waiting for New Year's Day.
>
>
> You sort of missed the point, Karl. Christmas couldn't happen in
> July......the winter solstice......get it? Most of the world pays attention
> to the winter solstice in one way or another, and celebrates Saturnalia,
> Sacaea, Zagmuk, Christmas, Chanukah or whatever.......and has since
> antiquity.....they just change the name and the idols periodically. The
> Christians merely borrowed from a variety of creation myths (as did the
> Jews.....and the Romans......and others.....before them) and stuck some of
> their own window dressing on it. Their major problem was that they weren't
> real good with calendars........or at making up their minds for that matter.
> They missed the solstice.....and they still can't decide whether or not they
> like the vernal equinox (about the timing of which they are equally
> uncertain).....the whole death and rebirth (resurrection, blah, blah....you
> know, Easter) better than the solstice. See, the old year dies.....cosmic
> significance and all that.....right? But when does it begin anew?
> Hm......is it when they days start to get longer?......or is it when the
> grass starts to grow again? Well, what the hell......let's start it both
> times! Can't lose! :)
>
> Wolfgang
> i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
> important birthday?
>
>
I'm sorry Wolfgang, but you are not missing - but rather, ignoring - the
point.

Christmas could indeed be any time of the year, because it seems nobody
really knows the exact date of Jesus' birth. That it was set in December
was a slightly shameful political decision taken a long time ago, that
is true. Mankind, even well-meaning scholarly types, can get political.

However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the
Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.

You will of course continue to ignore this, for the sheer malicious fun
of it. By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season
for Christ-haters, if that is how you celebrate the winter solstice.
By the way, celebrate it today.

Not on the 25th. That's Christmas.

Karl S.

[rw]

Karl S wrote:
>
> However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the
> Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.

Where do Santa Claus and the reindeer (including Rudolph) and the elves
and Mrs. Santa Claus fit into this Jesus thing?

Easter is the preeminent Christian holiday (although the Easter Bunny is
gaining ground). One Christian holiday is quite enough for me to ignore.
Christmas belongs to pop culture.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[Wolfgang]

"Karl S" > wrote in message
t...

> I'm sorry Wolfgang,

Well, I don't believe that, but let's see where you go with it, shall we?

> but you are not missing - but rather, ignoring - the point.

I'm doing neither.....but DO go on.

> Christmas could indeed be any time of the year, because it seems nobody
> really knows the exact date of Jesus' birth.

Nope. You may rest assured that the Church fathers got the point. That's
why Christmas HAS TO be at the winter solstice.....or the vernal equinox.
Well, somewhere in the general neighborhood, anyway. :)

> That it was set in December was a slightly shameful political decision
> taken a long time ago, that is true.

No, that is not true. There's nothing shameful about it. It's a time
honored tradition.....besides making eminent good sense.

> Mankind, even well-meaning scholarly types, can get political.

No, they don't GET political.....they ARE political......as you are, albeit
with little success.

> However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the
> Christ.

You can call it whatever you please. Makes no difference to me.

> The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.

Indeed. Would that we might see it someday. Don't hold your breath,
though.

> You will of course continue to ignore this, for the sheer malicious fun of
> it. By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season for
> Christ-haters, if that is how you celebrate the winter solstice.

There is nothing at all malicious about my examination or understanding of
Christian mythology....any more than there is about the mythologies of the
Muslims, the Jews, the Hindus, the Buddhists or any other religious group
I've looked at. Nor do I consider it worth my time to bother with hating
Gilgamesh, Jesus, Beowulf, or Huck Finn. You're going to have to find
someone else to wear that badge. However, if you're really all that serious
about courting martyrdom......well, you HAVE come to the right place.
:)

> By the way, celebrate it today.

I'll celebrate whatever I please whenever I choose to.

> Not on the 25th. That's Christmas.

Well......gosh......why wasn't I informed?

Wolfgang

[Daniel-San]

"Karl S" wrote ...

<<snip>>

> By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season for
> Christ-haters
>
> Karl S.

Christ-haters? Oh my.

Seems Mr. S. hath consumed a bit of the Kool-Aid.

Dan

[William Claspy]

On 12/21/05 4:33 PM, in article , "Wolfgang"
> wrote:

> Nor do I consider it worth my time to bother with hating
> ... Beowulf, or Huck Finn.

<whew!>

(I think...)

:-)

Best wishes to you and yours, Wolfgang!
Bill

[Wolfgang]

"rw" > wrote in message
k.net...
> ...Easter is the preeminent Christian holiday...

Varies from one cult to another.

Wolfgang
common knowledge.

[Tim J.]

William Claspy wrote:
> On 12/21/05 4:33 PM, in article ,
> "Wolfgang" > wrote:
>
>> Nor do I consider it worth my time to bother with hating
>> ... Beowulf, or Huck Finn.
>
> <whew!>
>
> (I think...)
>
> :-)
>
> Best wishes to you and yours, Wolfgang!
> Bill

I'll second that. All you yaaahooos (you know who you are) have a Merry
Christmas. I wish this for you regardless of religion or lack thereof.
Shucks, have a merry one even if you're gay. . . or (shudder) a
librarian. It's a special day for my family and I, and I can't see why
everyone else shouldn't share in the merriment.
--
TL,
Tim
---------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj/

[William Claspy]

On 12/21/05 4:59 PM, in article , "Tim J."
> wrote:

> . . . or (shudder) a
> librarian. It's a special day for my family and I, and I can't see why
> everyone else shouldn't share in the merriment.

Back at ya, big guy.

(Wait, you mean Republicans can be merry...? :-)

Happy Yule,
Bill

[Wolfgang]

"William Claspy" > wrote in message
...
> On 12/21/05 4:33 PM, in article , "Wolfgang"
> > wrote:
>
>> Nor do I consider it worth my time to bother with hating
>> ... Beowulf, or Huck Finn.
>
> <whew!>
>
> (I think...)
>
> :-)

Hey, what the hell, they never done nuthin' to me. That Silas Marner, on
the other hand.....boy, I'd gut that *******! :(

> Best wishes to you and yours, Wolfgang!

And the same to you and yours on whatever holy days you choose to
celebrate.....um.....or any others, for that matter. :)

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang]

"William Claspy" > wrote in message
...
> On 12/21/05 4:59 PM, in article , "Tim
> J."
> > wrote:
>
>> . . . or (shudder) a
>> librarian. It's a special day for my family and I, and I can't see why
>> everyone else shouldn't share in the merriment.
>
> Back at ya, big guy.
>
> (Wait, you mean Republicans can be merry...? :-)

Hell, they can even get married......in most states. :)

Merry Christmas Tim!

Wolfgang

[David Snedeker]

"Karl S" > wrote in message
t...
> Wolfgang wrote:
> > "Karl S" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Stan Gula wrote:
> >>
> >>>I call bull****.
> >>>Here's some details:
> >>>http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm
> >>>
> >>>The Roman Saturnalia celebration predates Christianity, and the Romans
> >>>actually stole (errr, adopted) the idea from the Greeks who called it
> >>>Sacaea. And the Greeks stole it from Babylon where it was called
Zagmuk.
> >>>The solstice was celebrated in Babylon 4,000 years before Christ and a
> >>>lot
> >>>of the 'Christmas traditions' have been handed down from the ancient
> >>>past.
> >>>Note that Zagmuk is very similar to Zagnut, a wicked fine candy bar,
> >>>which
> >>>has been made for over 75 years which predates most of us. Not that
that
> >>>relates to Christmas at all, except that if somebody wanted to buy me a
> >>>reasonable priced candy bar for a present, well, hint, hint, wink,
wink.
> >>>
> >>>Gonna open a nice bottle of port tomorrow to toast "Longer Days!".
> >>
> >>I said "widely popular holidays", Stan.
> >>
> >>What percentage of the world today celebrates Saturnalia? Sacaea?
Zagmuk?
> >>The Solstice? The most popular runner-up would be Chanukah or Hanukkah,
> >>whichever spelling you prefer, but that is a rather minor celebration of
> >>the Jewish faith which is widely recognized only because it occurs in
the
> >>same part of the year as Christmas.
> >>Forgotten celebrations to dead religions really don't count as a basis
for
> >>a holiday season.
> >>It doesn't even really matter that Christmas is near the solstice.
> >>If Christmas happened in July, the holiday season would be in July.
> >>And December would be only a time of waiting for New Year's Day.
> >
> >
> > You sort of missed the point, Karl. Christmas couldn't happen in
> > July......the winter solstice......get it? Most of the world pays
attention
> > to the winter solstice in one way or another, and celebrates Saturnalia,
> > Sacaea, Zagmuk, Christmas, Chanukah or whatever.......and has since
> > antiquity.....they just change the name and the idols periodically. The
> > Christians merely borrowed from a variety of creation myths (as did the
> > Jews.....and the Romans......and others.....before them) and stuck some
of
> > their own window dressing on it. Their major problem was that they
weren't
> > real good with calendars........or at making up their minds for that
matter.
> > They missed the solstice.....and they still can't decide whether or not
they
> > like the vernal equinox (about the timing of which they are equally
> > uncertain).....the whole death and rebirth (resurrection, blah,
blah....you
> > know, Easter) better than the solstice. See, the old year
dies.....cosmic
> > significance and all that.....right? But when does it begin anew?
> > Hm......is it when they days start to get longer?......or is it when the
> > grass starts to grow again? Well, what the hell......let's start it
both
> > times! Can't lose! :)
> >
> > Wolfgang
> > i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
> > important birthday?
> >
> >
> I'm sorry Wolfgang, but you are not missing - but rather, ignoring - the
> point.
>
> Christmas could indeed be any time of the year, because it seems nobody
> really knows the exact date of Jesus' birth. That it was set in December
> was a slightly shameful political decision taken a long time ago, that
> is true. Mankind, even well-meaning scholarly types, can get political.
>
> However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the
> Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.
>
> You will of course continue to ignore this, for the sheer malicious fun
> of it. By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season
> for Christ-haters, if that is how you celebrate the winter solstice.
> By the way, celebrate it today.
>
> Not on the 25th. That's Christmas.
>
> Karl S.

Merry Christmas to you Karl and all Christians. Just ignore all this stuff
and enjoy the holiday for whatever reasons and meanings it has to you.

As someone who regularly offends, I have an idea how disconcerting some of
our dark humor, and history etc can be, but don't take it personally. The
deal isn't usually that folks "hate" Christ, or want to kill him: The deal
is that while many admire some of the teachings attributed to Christ the
man, not everyone worships him as a god. In fact, just as some Christians
have a problem with the cult of Mary, some monotheists (who share your
belief in Jehovah, the Father-God), kinda look upon some of the Christian
stuff as a Jesus cult.

Anyway Merry Christmas, and please don't make too much of the static; its
just a way to pass thru what I think even you will admit can be a pretty
heavy dose of commercialized time.

Dave
Some of my best friends are Christians and Jews and Muslims, you know, the
Desert Churches. I will toast all their holidays, Prophets and God around
the fire tonight.

[Scott Seidman]

Karl S > wrote in
t:

> Christmas could indeed be any time of the year, because it seems nobody
> really knows the exact date of Jesus' birth. That it was set in
December
> was a slightly shameful political decision taken a long time ago, that
> is true. Mankind, even well-meaning scholarly types, can get political.
>
> However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus,
the
> Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.
>
> You will of course continue to ignore this, for the sheer malicious fun
> of it. By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season
> for Christ-haters, if that is how you celebrate the winter solstice.
> By the way, celebrate it today.


Au contraire-- I level the charge that those who wallow in the "We won't
let THEM steal our Christmas" thing are doing it because they love the
sheer malicious fun of making THEM stand out as Christ-haters. Further,
I invoke your use of the term "Christ-hater" as evidence that you are a
proud part of this wallowing group (wow, "wallow" works in so many ways
here, doesn't it?). Personally, I could respect your belief a whole lot
more if you could respect my disbelief.

This whole non-issue was started by some asswipe on Fox News who needed
more ratings. How many times have you been non-politely rebuffed after
saying "Merry Christmas", that this has become such a real issue for you?

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply
Hak mir nisht ken tshaynik

[George Cleveland]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:10:46 -0800, Karl S
> wrote:

>>
>>
>> You sort of missed the point, Karl. Christmas couldn't happen in
>> July......the winter solstice......get it? Most of the world pays attention
>> to the winter solstice in one way or another, and celebrates Saturnalia,
>> Sacaea, Zagmuk, Christmas, Chanukah or whatever.......and has since
>> antiquity.....they just change the name and the idols periodically. The
>> Christians merely borrowed from a variety of creation myths (as did the
>> Jews.....and the Romans......and others.....before them) and stuck some of
>> their own window dressing on it. Their major problem was that they weren't
>> real good with calendars........or at making up their minds for that matter.
>> They missed the solstice.....and they still can't decide whether or not they
>> like the vernal equinox (about the timing of which they are equally
>> uncertain).....the whole death and rebirth (resurrection, blah, blah....you
>> know, Easter) better than the solstice. See, the old year dies.....cosmic
>> significance and all that.....right? But when does it begin anew?
>> Hm......is it when they days start to get longer?......or is it when the
>> grass starts to grow again? Well, what the hell......let's start it both
>> times! Can't lose! :)
>>
>> Wolfgang
>> i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
>> important birthday?
>>
>>
>I'm sorry Wolfgang, but you are not missing - but rather, ignoring - the
>point.
>
>Christmas could indeed be any time of the year, because it seems nobody
>really knows the exact date of Jesus' birth. That it was set in December
>was a slightly shameful political decision taken a long time ago, that
>is true. Mankind, even well-meaning scholarly types, can get political.
>
>However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the
>Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.
>
>You will of course continue to ignore this, for the sheer malicious fun
>of it. By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season
>for Christ-haters, if that is how you celebrate the winter solstice.
>By the way, celebrate it today.
>
>Not on the 25th. That's Christmas.
>
>Karl S.


Christmas is celebrated in whatever way (and for whatever reason) the
celebrants wish to celebrate it. I have no problem with a person
celebrating it as a deeply religious holiday. I have no problem with
someone celebrating it with no mention of Jesus. I do have a problem
with people telling other people how they must organize their family
traditions. Christmas is the name of a day. Its origins are obvious,
but in the modern world it is the name of a day, just as Halloween is
the name of a former holy day that has been adopted as a secular name
for October 31st. Christmas has also become a secular name for
December 25th. Like it or not Christmas is now a time for merrymaking
with prayer and reflection being an option.

And this is not just a modern phenomenon. Christmas was until 150
years ago primarily an adult, secular celebration, which included
lots of alcohol cosumption and even role changing. The wassailers, far
from being happy, pious carollers were groups who went from door to
door singing and expecting to rewarded with drink. They became
progressively drunker and rowdier as they made their rounds. This is,
in part, why Christmas was banned by the Pilgrims (and the English
Roundheads IIRC). Like it or not Christmas is just our cultures way of
celebrating during the darkest time of the year. A phenomena that is a
universal custom in the northern hemisphere, no matter what its
called.

g.c.

[[email protected]]

Ken wrote:

"BTW, all the best holidays came from the pagans. Easter, Christmas,
Halloween. "

You forgot your birthday! :-)

Harry
mine too

[Wayne Harrison]

"George Cleveland" > wrote

> Christmas is celebrated in whatever way (and for whatever reason) the
> celebrants wish to celebrate it. I have no problem with a person
> celebrating it as a deeply religious holiday. I have no problem with
> someone celebrating it with no mention of Jesus. I do have a problem
> with people telling other people how they must organize their family
> traditions. Christmas is the name of a day. Its origins are obvious,
> but in the modern world it is the name of a day, just as Halloween is
> the name of a former holy day that has been adopted as a secular name
> for October 31st. Christmas has also become a secular name for
> December 25th. Like it or not Christmas is now a time for merrymaking
> with prayer and reflection being an option.
>
> And this is not just a modern phenomenon. Christmas was until 150
> years ago primarily an adult, secular celebration, which included
> lots of alcohol cosumption and even role changing. The wassailers, far
> from being happy, pious carollers were groups who went from door to
> door singing and expecting to rewarded with drink. They became
> progressively drunker and rowdier as they made their rounds. This is,
> in part, why Christmas was banned by the Pilgrims (and the English
> Roundheads IIRC). Like it or not Christmas is just our cultures way of
> celebrating during the darkest time of the year. A phenomena that is a
> universal custom in the northern hemisphere, no matter what its
> called.
>
> g.c.

jesus! (oops; sorry, but that's just the way i talk)---the appearance of
intelligent observations in the midst of mental southwestern omelets is
simply overwhelming.

one of these days, george, you are gonna have to sit down with me on a
stream in the u.p. and carefully explain the meaning of life.

yfitons
wayno(and a little advice with the ladies would also be gratefully received)

[Ken Fortenberry]

Tim J. wrote:
>
> . . . or (shudder) a
> librarian. ...

It's A Wonderful Life, one of our favorite scenes:

Jimmy Stewart asks Clarence the Angel about Donna Reed.
Now the uncle is in the looney bin, Mom is running a
flophouse, the whole town has gone to hell in a basket
but Clarence can't bring himself to divulge the fate
of poor Donna Reed. Finally, under duress, the Angel
blurts out "She's a ... a ... LIBRARIAN !"

Me and the librarian wife always have a laugh at that.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Mike Connor]

"David Snedeker" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
. ..
<SNIP>
> As someone who regularly offends, I have an idea how disconcerting some of
> our dark humor, and history etc can be, but don't take it personally. The
> deal isn't usually that folks "hate" Christ, or want to kill him:

Well.... I´m really sorry about this, but he´s dead, deceased, gone,
departed, buggered off, shuffled off this mortal coil. Indeed if it wasn´t
for the nails.................................

( Just trying to upset the christians as well).


TL
MC

[Wolfgang]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> ...Just trying to upset the christians....

Good luck.

Wolfgang
who has long known that the only thing that REALLY upsets them is the
nagging suspicion that everybody (yes, including them) isn't irredeemably
damned. :)

[Mike Connor]

"Wolfgang" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
>
> "Mike Connor" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> ...Just trying to upset the christians....
>
> Good luck.
>
> Wolfgang
> who has long known that the only thing that REALLY upsets them is the
> nagging suspicion that everybody (yes, including them) isn't irredeemably
> damned. :)
>

Don´t mind being damned really, should that prove to be the case, but being
screwed, scammed, taken for a fool, or even just being "taken" upsets me on
occasion.
OK, I know it is unreasonable and perverse. Oooppps!

There I nearly went again...................................

Actually, I rather think they fear the opposite, that everybody including
themselves, is irretrievably damned. They believe because they want to
believe, or because it is the "done thing", and they don´t know what else to
believe anyway, but somewhere there is this persistent little nagging voice
which says "Nahhhh, not really .........."

TL
MC

[Karl S]

rw wrote:
> Karl S wrote:
>
>>
>> However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus,
>> the Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.
>
>
> Where do Santa Claus and the reindeer (including Rudolph) and the elves
> and Mrs. Santa Claus fit into this Jesus thing?

They don't, generally speaking. Santa got his start with a kindly German
priest who became known as "Saint Nicholas". He had a tradition of
bringing toys to the children of his town on Christmas. The rest of it,
elves and the North Pole and all that, were just fun tales to entertain
children. In short, the pop culture that has been wrapped around
Christmas is all about pleasing children, and personally I see no
problem with that at all.

>
> Easter is the preeminent Christian holiday (although the Easter Bunny is
> gaining ground). One Christian holiday is quite enough for me to ignore.
> Christmas belongs to pop culture.
>
Why should you or I care how somebody else celebrates a holiday?

Karl S.

[JR]

Karl S wrote:
> rw wrote:

>> Where do Santa Claus and the reindeer (including Rudolph) and the
>> elves and Mrs. Santa Claus fit into this Jesus thing?
>
> They don't, generally speaking. Santa got his start with a kindly German
> priest who became known as "Saint Nicholas". He had a tradition of
> bringing toys to the children of his town on Christmas. The rest of it,
> elves and the North Pole and all that, were just fun tales to entertain
> children. In short, the pop culture that has been wrapped around
> Christmas is all about pleasing children, and personally I see no
> problem with that at all.
>> ......
> Why should you or I care how somebody else celebrates a holiday?

There is little doubt that the modern "pop-culture" Christmas does as
much as anything to inculcate in American children the rapacious,
insatiable consumerism that leads us to.... well, among other things, to
wage unprovoked wars of aggression in order to keep the mindless
consumption running strong....

(a part of the Gospels I evidently missed)....

JR

[Wolfgang]

"Karl S" > wrote in message
t...

> ...Why should you or I care how somebody else celebrates a holiday?

Ah! So, you DO see the point........at long last.

Wolfgang
who doubts it.......but there's that native generosity of spirit at work
again. :(

[Karl S]

David Snedeker wrote:
> "Karl S" > wrote in message
> t...
>
>>Wolfgang wrote:
>>
>>>"Karl S" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Stan Gula wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I call bull****.
>>>>>Here's some details:
>>>>>http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>The Roman Saturnalia celebration predates Christianity, and the Romans
>>>>>actually stole (errr, adopted) the idea from the Greeks who called it
>>>>>Sacaea. And the Greeks stole it from Babylon where it was called
>
> Zagmuk.
>
>>>>>The solstice was celebrated in Babylon 4,000 years before Christ and a
>>>>>lot
>>>>>of the 'Christmas traditions' have been handed down from the ancient
>>>>>past.
>>>>>Note that Zagmuk is very similar to Zagnut, a wicked fine candy bar,
>>>>>which
>>>>>has been made for over 75 years which predates most of us. Not that
>
> that
>
>>>>>relates to Christmas at all, except that if somebody wanted to buy me a
>>>>>reasonable priced candy bar for a present, well, hint, hint, wink,
>
> wink.
>
>>>>>Gonna open a nice bottle of port tomorrow to toast "Longer Days!".
>>>>
>>>>I said "widely popular holidays", Stan.
>>>>
>>>>What percentage of the world today celebrates Saturnalia? Sacaea?
>
> Zagmuk?
>
>>>>The Solstice? The most popular runner-up would be Chanukah or Hanukkah,
>>>>whichever spelling you prefer, but that is a rather minor celebration of
>>>>the Jewish faith which is widely recognized only because it occurs in
>
> the
>
>>>>same part of the year as Christmas.
>>>>Forgotten celebrations to dead religions really don't count as a basis
>
> for
>
>>>>a holiday season.
>>>>It doesn't even really matter that Christmas is near the solstice.
>>>>If Christmas happened in July, the holiday season would be in July.
>>>>And December would be only a time of waiting for New Year's Day.
>>>
>>>
>>>You sort of missed the point, Karl. Christmas couldn't happen in
>>>July......the winter solstice......get it? Most of the world pays
>
> attention
>
>>>to the winter solstice in one way or another, and celebrates Saturnalia,
>>>Sacaea, Zagmuk, Christmas, Chanukah or whatever.......and has since
>>>antiquity.....they just change the name and the idols periodically. The
>>>Christians merely borrowed from a variety of creation myths (as did the
>>>Jews.....and the Romans......and others.....before them) and stuck some
>
> of
>
>>>their own window dressing on it. Their major problem was that they
>
> weren't
>
>>>real good with calendars........or at making up their minds for that
>
> matter.
>
>>>They missed the solstice.....and they still can't decide whether or not
>
> they
>
>>>like the vernal equinox (about the timing of which they are equally
>>>uncertain).....the whole death and rebirth (resurrection, blah,
>
> blah....you
>
>>>know, Easter) better than the solstice. See, the old year
>
> dies.....cosmic
>
>>>significance and all that.....right? But when does it begin anew?
>>>Hm......is it when they days start to get longer?......or is it when the
>>>grass starts to grow again? Well, what the hell......let's start it
>
> both
>
>>>times! Can't lose! :)
>>>
>>>Wolfgang
>>>i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
>>>important birthday?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I'm sorry Wolfgang, but you are not missing - but rather, ignoring - the
>>point.
>>
>>Christmas could indeed be any time of the year, because it seems nobody
>>really knows the exact date of Jesus' birth. That it was set in December
>>was a slightly shameful political decision taken a long time ago, that
>>is true. Mankind, even well-meaning scholarly types, can get political.
>>
>>However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the
>>Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.
>>
>>You will of course continue to ignore this, for the sheer malicious fun
>>of it. By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season
>>for Christ-haters, if that is how you celebrate the winter solstice.
>>By the way, celebrate it today.
>>
>>Not on the 25th. That's Christmas.
>>
>>Karl S.
>
>
> Merry Christmas to you Karl and all Christians. Just ignore all this stuff
> and enjoy the holiday for whatever reasons and meanings it has to you.
>
> As someone who regularly offends, I have an idea how disconcerting some of
> our dark humor, and history etc can be, but don't take it personally. The
> deal isn't usually that folks "hate" Christ, or want to kill him: The deal
> is that while many admire some of the teachings attributed to Christ the
> man, not everyone worships him as a god. In fact, just as some Christians
> have a problem with the cult of Mary, some monotheists (who share your
> belief in Jehovah, the Father-God), kinda look upon some of the Christian
> stuff as a Jesus cult.
>
> Anyway Merry Christmas, and please don't make too much of the static; its
> just a way to pass thru what I think even you will admit can be a pretty
> heavy dose of commercialized time.
>
> Dave
> Some of my best friends are Christians and Jews and Muslims, you know, the
> Desert Churches. I will toast all their holidays, Prophets and God around
> the fire tonight.
>
>
Thank you for your sensible words, David. We all know that Christmas has
become commercialized, in much the way a ship becomes encrusted with
barnacles.
That's kind of a sad thing, but it's how people are.
But, all of that tinsel and plastic is not Christmas. Christmas is still
there, underneath it all, sacred and holy.
As for my use of the word "hate"? Pardon the term, but I have
reluctantly become convinced that it is factual. How else can one
explain the annual attacks upon, of all things, a holiday? If nothing
else, a long weekend off work, with pay?

Karl S.

[Wolfgang]

"Karl S" > wrote in message
...


> Thank you for your sensible words, David. We all know that Christmas has
> become commercialized, in much the way a ship becomes encrusted with
> barnacles.

"Holy Days", holidays, feast days.....whatever one wishes to call
them.....have always been important factors in the economies of the cultures
that celebrate them. Your metaphor is as inapt as it is hackneyed.
Barnacles slow a ship; commerce is the very lifeblood of civilization.
Remove the commercialization of Christmas (not yet a venerable
tradition.....but getting close) and you're back to being a minority sect of
cranks seeking immolation. O.k. with me if that's what you want (and it
appears to be), but please do try to prearrange for someone to clean up the
mess.

> That's kind of a sad thing,

Civilization is a sad thing? Really? You should see the alternative.

> but it's how people are.

All too few of them. Most are trying to scratch a living from the
smoldering embers left in the wake of the enlightened.

> But, all of that tinsel and plastic is not Christmas.

True enough. The real message of Christmas is death.....everlasting
flames.....torture.....napalmed children.....crusades.....witch
hunts....autodafe.....charnel houses.....the rack....terrorist
recruitment......the list goes on and on and on and on...........

> Christmas is still there, underneath it all, sacred and holy.

Well, isn't that just precious?

> As for my use of the word "hate"? Pardon the term, but I have reluctantly
> become convinced that it is factual.

Reluctantly? Bull****. You suck it up. It's what you came here for. And
you haven't got the common decency to say "thank you".

> How else can one explain the annual attacks upon, of all things, a
> holiday?

There are many ways.....but you wouldn't be interested.

> If nothing else, a long weekend off work, with pay?

Ah! More time to dream up new eternal tortures for infant sinners!
:)

Wolfgang
who notices that old warm and fuzzy feeling creeping up again.

[Stan Gula]

Wayne Harrison wrote to the wise man from the land of cheese and adventure:
> yfitons
> wayno(and a little advice with the ladies would also be gratefully
> received)

I call bull**** for the second time this week.

*<|:-)}

[Wolfgang]

"Wayne Harrison" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> ...one of these days, george, you are gonna have to sit down with me on a
> stream in the u.p. and carefully explain the meaning of life.

Wouldn't do any good. Well, hasn't for me anyway. I mean, I really believe
he's doing his best, but every time we get together he explains it
all......and it makes perfect sense at the time.....but as soon as I get in
the car and back on the road.....and start thinking about ROFF.....my eyes
kind of glaze over.......and it's all gone. :(

Still, it's fun to listen. C'mon up in September; if George leaves anything
out, Joel will fill in all the nasty details. :)

> yfitons
> wayno(and a little advice with the ladies would also be gratefully
> received)

Good luck. The ******* NEVER shares that! :(

Wolfgang

In article >,
says...
> rw wrote:
> > Karl S wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus,
> >> the Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.
> >
> >
> > Where do Santa Claus and the reindeer (including Rudolph) and the elves
> > and Mrs. Santa Claus fit into this Jesus thing?
>
> They don't, generally speaking. Santa got his start with a kindly German
> priest who became known as "Saint Nicholas".

I'm too lazy to do a google search, but I'm pretty sure he was Turkish.
- Ken

[rw]

wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>
>>Santa got his start with a kindly German
>>priest who became known as "Saint Nicholas".
>
>
> I'm too lazy to do a google search, but I'm pretty sure he was Turkish.
> - Ken

I guess I have to be the one to break it to you that Santa Claus and St.
Nicolas are entirely mythical figures, no matter what your parents told
you when you were four years old. :-)

Same deal with the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. And Satan and God.
And reincarnation and zombies. All myths. When you die you cease to
exist. You become a cold, lifeless collection of disorganized molecules.
Dead, dead, dead. Deal with it. Enjoy your life while it lasts.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[Cyli]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 07:41:55 -0500, Charlie Choc
> wrote:

(snipped)

>Since Christmas is on Sunday this year a couple of the largest churches in the
>Atlanta area will be closed so their employees and parishioners can celebrate
>"in their own way".


I remember reading that in some news a week or so ago. It was so odd,
and so difficult to believe, that it absolutely slipped my mind.

Seems that Christmas Eve has become the big church day of the season
for churches. I can see that they'd cut their Christmas day
ceremonies down to just a couple of before noon ones, but to cut out
all services because it falls on a Sunday is mind boggling.

It's Sunday, for (literally) Christ's sake. Do they believe in Sunday
services or not? They have a double holy day going and they're going
to go home and watch Dicken's Christmas Carol or a football game on TV
instead of giving a service and communion? How can they sluff
(slough?) that stuff off on their parishioners? If there is even one
church member who wishes to attend an ordinary Sunday service and take
communion, why aren't they given the chance to do so?

Yeah, it's just a rant, as I have no official religion any more. I
just like to see groups and people make an attempt to live up to the
principles they espouse, especially if they espouse them for the
entire rest of the world.

You should hear me go on when I see some supposedly patriotic American
displaying a dirty tattered flag as if he / she were doing the
American thing.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: (strip the .invalid to email)

[rw]

Charlie Choc wrote:
>
> Since Christmas is on Sunday this year a couple of the largest churches in the
> Atlanta area will be closed so their employees and parishioners can celebrate
> "in their own way".

Watching either Chicago playing at Green Bay or Minnesota playing at
Baltimore.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[Stan Gula]

Tim J. wrote:
> I'll second that. All you yaaahooos (you know who you are) have a
> Merry Christmas. I wish this for you regardless of religion or lack
> thereof. Shucks, have a merry one even if you're gay. . . or
> (shudder) a librarian. It's a special day for my family and I, and I
> can't see why everyone else shouldn't share in the merriment.

Yo, ho, ho... (oops, that's from Talk Like a Pirate Day)

Ho, Ho, Ho. (that's better)

A Happy Holiday to you and all the other Roffians, family and friends.

Looking forward to fishing and hobnobbing with lots of you in the New Year.
--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps

[Stan Gula]

rw wrote:
> When you die you cease
> to exist. You become a cold, lifeless collection of disorganized
> molecules. Dead, dead, dead. Deal with it. Enjoy your life while it
> lasts.

That's what I love about Christmas - all the tidings of comfort and joy,
comfort and joy. <g>
--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps

[Wolfgang]

"rw" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> wrote:
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>
>>>
>>>Santa got his start with a kindly German priest who became known as
>>>"Saint Nicholas".
>>
>>
>> I'm too lazy to do a google search, but I'm pretty sure he was Turkish.
>> - Ken
>
> I guess I have to be the one to break it to you that Santa Claus and St.
> Nicolas are entirely mythical figures, no matter what your parents told
> you when you were four years old. :-)

Maybe. Mythical figures and places can be very uncooperative. Many of them
turn out to have a solid basis in fact.

> Same deal with the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. And Satan and God.
> And reincarnation and zombies. All myths.

Hm.....

Well, the first entry on that list leaves hard currency. Don't know how
things work in Idaho, but that's considerably less mythological than most of
MY fiduciary transactions these days.

> When you die you cease to exist. You become a cold, lifeless collection of
> disorganized molecules. Dead, dead, dead.

Maybe. But unless you've been there, you don't know. And if you
have.....well, then you're just plain wrong.

> Deal with it.

That's precisely what folks are trying to do.

> Enjoy your life while it lasts.

This much at least is easier with you here. :)

Wolfgang

[Charlie Choc]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:56:42 GMT, rw > wrote:

>Charlie Choc wrote:
>>
>> Since Christmas is on Sunday this year a couple of the largest churches in the
>> Atlanta area will be closed so their employees and parishioners can celebrate
>> "in their own way".
>
>Watching either Chicago playing at Green Bay or Minnesota playing at
>Baltimore.

On their new big screens.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

[Scott Seidman]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in
:

>> As for my use of the word "hate"? Pardon the term, but I have
>> reluctantly become convinced that it is factual.
>
> Reluctantly? Bull****. You suck it up. It's what you came here for.
> And you haven't got the common decency to say "thank you".

This is a very strange scenario. It's like some kid in the classroom used
a dirty word, and nothing happened to him, so all the other kids are trying
the word out to see what happens to them. When called on it, even though
they know its wrong, they play dumb (i.e., the "I don't know" response to
"who taught you that word?").

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

[Wayne Knight]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...

> i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
> important birthday?

Frankly, yes

[Wolfgang]

"Wayne Knight" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wolfgang" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
>> important birthday?
>
> Frankly, yes


Yeah......I KNEW somebody was going to say that. :)

Wolfgang
who, being rather young at the time.....and with other things on his
mind......has always taken his own birth date on faith.