OT Cockles & Sense

[Ken Fortenberry]

This story will warm the cockles of your heart and make you
wonder about having sense enough to come in out of the rain.

http://msnbc.com/news/969061.asp?0sl=-41

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Frank Reid]

> This story will warm the cockles of your heart and make you
> wonder about having sense enough to come in out of the rain.
>
> http://msnbc.com/news/969061.asp?0sl=-41

Two words for you, duty and honor. I heard it on the radio yesterday. Have
you never carried your 7-iron placard in the rough conditions? Would you
shy away from a counter-protest? From what I've read, you hold strong
beliefs. You're not a fair-weather pacifist. Why would you belittle the
same sense of duty you hold in your beliefs when that sense is exhibited by
those on "the other side?" Is it just to make them less strong in your eyes
so you can feel more superior? Come on Forty, with all your bull**** and
bluster, I personally believe you're a better man than that.
--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply

[Dave LaCourse]

Frank Reid writes:

>Two words for you, duty and honor. I heard it on the radio yesterday. Have
>you never carried your 7-iron placard in the rough conditions? Would you
>shy away from a counter-protest? From what I've read, you hold strong
>beliefs. You're not a fair-weather pacifist. Why would you belittle the
>same sense of duty you hold in your beliefs when that sense is exhibited by
>those on "the other side?" Is it just to make them less strong in your eyes
>so you can feel more superior? Come on Forty, with all your bull**** and
>bluster, I personally believe you're a better man than that.
>--

Thank you, Frank. You beat me to it, but said it way better than I could have.
I would only add that a man without honor can not understand honor.
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Ken Fortenberry]

Frank Reid wrote:
>
> Two words for you, duty and honor.

And here's two for you, common sense.

> ... You're not a fair-weather pacifist. Why would you belittle the
> same sense of duty you hold in your beliefs when that sense is exhibited by
> those on "the other side?" ...

I'm not a pacifist at all and I'm not belittling anyone's sense of duty.
I do wonder why it's so all fired important to pace back and forth in
front of a tomb during a hurricane. Apparently Cemetery Superintendent
John Metzler could use one of your "other side" mini-lectures too.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[slenon]

>This story will warm the cockles of your heart and make you
>wonder about having sense enough to come in out of the rain.--
>Ken Fortenberry

Yet I imagine you'd have no problem sitting through a football game in foul
weather. Too bad that your education didn't include the concepts of duty
and honor. There's nothing else to say to someone who would make such a
statement.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[Ken Fortenberry]

Dave LaCourse wrote:
> ...
> I would only add that a man without honor can not understand honor.

The whole point is to guard the tomb, correct ? So please tell me why
monitoring the tomb via security cameras is any less "honorable" than
pacing back and forth with an unloaded gun in a ****in' hurricane ?

--
Ken Fortenberry

[slenon]

>So please tell me why monitoring the tomb via security cameras is any less
"honorable" than
>pacing back and forth with an unloaded gun in a ****in' hurricane ?
>Ken Fortenberry

If you have to ask, Ken, the answer will always be beyond your
comprehension. And what makes you think the rifles aren't loaded?

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[JR]

Ken Fortenberry wrote:
>
> Frank Reid wrote:

> > ... You're not a fair-weather pacifist. Why would you belittle the
> > same sense of duty you hold in your beliefs when that sense is exhibited by
> > those on "the other side?" ...
>
> ....... Apparently Cemetery Superintendent
> John Metzler could use one of your "other side" mini-lectures too.

I'd guess Superintendent Metzler had a pretty fair idea how Sgt Holmes
and his colleagues would react to the permission. Seems to me everyone
at Arlington behaved irreproachably.

JR

[Dave LaCourse]

Ken Fortenberry writes:

>The whole point is to guard the tomb, correct ? So please tell me why
>monitoring the tomb via security cameras is any less "honorable" than
>pacing back and forth with an unloaded gun in a ****in' hurricane ?

You would never understand it, Ken, so there is no reason for me to even *try*
to explain it. Like I said, a man without honor can not be expected to
understand honor.

And, the weapons are loaded.

Sometimes, Ken, you strain my friendship like it has never been strained
before. And, sometimes it is better just to keep your mouth shut rather than
to ridicule and make fun of things that others consider honorable. It is like
Gehrke making fun of your child. No difference, none, whatsoever.
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Frank Reid]

> > Two words for you, duty and honor.
>
> And here's two for you, common sense.
>
> > ... You're not a fair-weather pacifist. Why would you belittle the
> > same sense of duty you hold in your beliefs when that sense is exhibited
by
> > those on "the other side?" ...
>
> I'm not a pacifist at all and I'm not belittling anyone's sense of duty.
> I do wonder why it's so all fired important to pace back and forth in
> front of a tomb during a hurricane. Apparently Cemetery Superintendent
> John Metzler could use one of your "other side" mini-lectures too.

Well Ken, let me go back to MLK. He, and others of his stature, knew that
nothing beats the physical presence of a man or woman standing in the front
line to show solidarity with his or her beliefs. Why would that man or
woman intentionally walk in front of an outraged crowd, with attack dogs and
bricks let loose, with kicks and baton blows reigning on them. Knowing that
this would happen, what sane mane or woman would do that? Others, very high
up in their organization, cautioned against it. Those folks still did it.
They marched on Selma, they went to schools that did not want them. They
were beaten, arrested, and attacked at home and on the street. They
persevered, because they believed what they were doing was right. You,
yourself, have protested, knowing that you were going into harms way.
Common sense should have told you not to go there. You did anyway, because
you believed what you were doing was more important than the perceived
danger.

These men and women at the Tomb are of the same ilk. They believe that what
they are doing is important, is worth getting wet and going through a bit of
discomfort. They, with their physical presence, are a constant reminder
that no one from the outside will gain control over the American will, not
with tyranny, not with shackles.

Okay, you're not a pacifist. I inferred wrong. Granted. And you and I
both know that I don't subscribe to your political ideas. I do hope you are
strong enough to support what you believe in with the same integrity, duty,
and honor that the members of the guard at the Tomb do. They are a protest
sign to the world, mounted on something a bit more powerful than a 7 iron.

--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply

[Bill Kiene]

Hi All,

I guess that is why we don't have Japanese or German as our official
language today.

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com

"Ken Fortenberry" > wrote in message
.com...

> This story will warm the cockles of your heart and make you
> wonder about having sense enough to come in out of the rain.
>
> http://msnbc.com/news/969061.asp?0sl=-41
>
> --
> Ken Fortenberry
>

[slenon]

Frank Reid>These men and women at the Tomb are of the same ilk. They
believe that what
>they are doing is important, is worth getting wet and going through a bit
of
>discomfort. They, with their physical presence, are a constant reminder
>that no one from the outside will gain control over the American will, not
>with tyranny, not with shackles.

Marvelously stated. Thanks, comrade.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[Ken Fortenberry]

Bill Kiene wrote:
>
> I guess that is why we don't have Japanese or German as our official
> language today.

My guess is that this amply illustrates why our founding fathers made
the military subordinate to civilians. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Frank Reid]

> Marvelously stated. Thanks, comrade.

Comrade? COMRADE? Uh, you must be mistaken, uh, uh, it was only a
business, uh tourist trip. Yeh, thats it, I liked the artwork.... Uh,
besides, the Wall was falling, and I, uh, just wanted to see what it looked
like... I'm not a comrade. See, look, no membership card...
--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply

[slenon]

>Uh, besides, the Wall was falling, and I, uh, just wanted to see what it
looked
>like... I'm not a comrade. See, look, no membership card...
>Frank Reid

Accidental tourist? OK. I'll even let you tell me that you never inhaled.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[Ken Fortenberry]

Dave LaCourse wrote:
>
> ... Like I said, a man without honor can not be expected to
> understand honor.

A man without common sense cannot be expected to understand
common sense.

> And, the weapons are loaded.

That's nice, but I doubt the hurricane gives a **** one way or
the other.

> ... It is like
> Gehrke making fun of your child. No difference, none, whatsoever.

No comment.

Look, your notions of "honor" are of the military, by the military
and for the military. I think they're ridiculous, but that does not
make me a man of no honor, it just makes me a man of no military.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Dave LaCourse]

Ken Fortenberry:

>Look, your notions of "honor" are of the military, by the military
>and for the military. I think they're ridiculous, but that does not
>make me a man of no honor, it just makes me a man of no military.


Wrong. Honor and duty you do not understand. You have a history on this ng of
flying off the handle when anyone says "God Bless America" or is thankful that
some sailors in an EP-3 Orion are freed from their captors. Remember that one?
You accused me of jingoism when I cheered their arrival at Bremerton.

I am sure you know all about the Tomb, and how it is guarded. Think of the
moms, dads, wives, children that visit it hoping that it contains the remains
of their loved ones lost in two WWs and Korea and never identified. The Old
Guard, the men walking the Vigil, will always be there as a symbol that someone
cares about the price the Unknowns have given to their country. I know you
could never understand that. Go to the tomb, Ken, watch the Guard. Watch the
changing of the Guard. If a tear does not come to your eye, then you have no
heart either. Think about what you are making fun of.

Do you remember how angry I was with Gehrke and his statement? Well *you* have
made me just as angry with your disrespect, mockery, and foolishness. You have
no honor. You could never possibly understand what honor and duty are. You
can not drink from my canteen ever again. I've had it with you. Something has
happened to you, I know not what, but it sure as hell is starting to cost you
in friends lost. And, until you change back to the reasonable Ken I used to
know, do not consider me a friend.

Dave

[Ken Fortenberry]

Dave LaCourse wrote:
> ...
> I am sure you know all about the Tomb, and how it is guarded.

I know that it was guarded by Joe Schmoe with a flashlight until
1926. That's right, civilians. The Tomb was a European knockoff
of little interest to war weary Americans. From '26 to '48 it was
"guarded" during daylight hours only by the equivalent of today's
National Guard.

> Think of the
> moms, dads, wives, children that visit it hoping that it contains the remains
> of their loved ones lost in two WWs and Korea and never identified. The Old
> Guard, the men walking the Vigil, will always be there as a symbol that someone
> cares about the price the Unknowns have given to their country.

I don't have a problem with the Old Guard performing their ritual
for the tourists. I do have a problem with active duty US military
getting killed in the middle of the night by a hurricane for something
as silly as military ritual.

> I know you
> could never understand that. Go to the tomb, Ken, watch the Guard. Watch the
> changing of the Guard.

Perhaps, but not during a hurricane, by gawd.

> ... do not consider me a friend.

I have no control over how you consider me, but you can't tell me how
to consider you either. So I consider you a friend, and if you don't
like it you can kick my ass.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

"Dave LaCourse" > wrote in message
...
And, until you change back to the reasonable Ken I used to
> know, do not consider me a friend.
>
> Dave

So much for that dear friendship. Wayno, watch-out you could be joinin' us
next!

Op

[Wolfgang]

"slenon" > wrote in message
...
> >So please tell me why monitoring the tomb via security cameras is any
less
> "honorable" than
> >pacing back and forth with an unloaded gun in a ****in' hurricane ?
> >Ken Fortenberry
>
> If you have to ask, Ken, the answer will always be beyond your
> comprehension. And what makes you think the rifles aren't loaded?

"...'tis no matter; honour pricks me on. Yea, but how if honour prick me
off when I come on? How then? Can honor set to a leg? No. An arm? No.
Or take away the grief of a wound? No. Honour hath no skill in surgery
then? No. What is honour? A word. What is that word honour? Air. A
trim reckoning! Who hath it? He that died a Wednesday. Doth he feel it?
No. Doth he bear it? No. 'Tis insensible then? Yea, to the dead. But
will it not live with the living? No. Why? Distraction will not suffer
it. Therefore I'll none of it. Honour is a mere scutcheon-and so ends my
catechism."

Ya gotta wonder why they named such a bland and utterly tasteless excuse for
beer after so colorful and.......well.....tasteless....a character.
:)

Meanwhile, McLuhan was wrong. Sir John, being who he is, may have doubtful
motives, but the message is worth considering nevertheless. Honorable
service, military or otherwise (and the vast majority IS otherwise) is not
an intrinsically difficult concept to get one's brain around. Hm......it
suddenly occurs to me that military veterans' preoccupation (and I use the
word advisedly as honor comes up MUCH more frequently in such company than
it does among the population as a whole) with honor might be an interesting
topic for an investigator ROFFian discussion some day..........another day.
Anyway, as I was saying, honor, being an abstraction (after all, you can't
eat it, pound on it with a ball peen hammer, smell it, see
it......um......hm.....), may SEEM like an intractable subject to some, but
that's only because most people don't take much time to think about such
matters. Oddly enough, there is a strong positive correlation between
preoccupation with honor and aversion to giving the matter any significant
degree of critical thought.......but......again, that's a discussion for
another day.

Honor is, quite simply, an attribute of certain human beings (and perhaps
other creatures as well?......hm......) which manifests itself in the
performance of any of a finite, if perhaps large, number of certain
particular, if in a broad sense ill defined and generally more or less
onerous, duties, because it is the right thing to do......regardless of
other fiduciary, social, political, personal, or other, concerns. Very well
then. Um........well, actually, not quite so well. It seems that there is
a bit of dissonance with regard to what is, in fact, the honorable (or not)
thing to do in many, if not necessarily ALL, circumstances. That's really,
if somewhat counterintuitively, a part of the definition. See, it (whatever
IT may be) CAN'T be honorable unless and until somebody, somewhere, decides
that it is DIShonorable! HAH! Ain't that just the ****s??!! No, really!
If it's just something that everyone does and/or takes for granted, then
it's just.......well......just what you do. And where's the honor in THAT?!

Now, looking at the above it will, of course, seem that we are no nearer
drawing a bead (if you'll forgive the admittedly rather martial metaphor) on
just what honor is and what it ain't. I mean, if it ain't pig then it ain't
pork......right? And, on the other hand, if it's bacon then........well,
you know, right?

Anyway.........um.........hold on for just a bit. Becky's parents (well,
o.k., her mother and her STEP-father) just stopped by on their way home from
Door County.......they went up for the weekend and left the dog with
us.......um......when the hell did the "weekend" end at 4 o'clock on
Saturday afternoon? :( )
and I gotta make something for supper.

Well then, where was I?

Oh yeah. Those guys at the tomb of the whatever. Um.......dead guys.....am
I right? Yeah, o.k. So, I got no problem (and I take the liberty of
assuming that the vast majority of Americans agree with me on this) with a
bunch of guys standing guard over something that the vast majority of
Americans (let alone the rest of the world) doesn't know exists......let
alone care about it. The cost? BAH! Who cares?! It's worth whatever it
costs.......I s'pose. And this brings us (by the short route, I admit)
right back to where we started. Just WHO or WHAT in hell are all these
brave and honorable Spartans protecting all these unidentified (and perhaps
German, Japanese, or Vietnamese........well ****, they ARE unknown,
right??!!) bones FROM? I mean, if there's been a rash of desecration
threats or unknown bone kidnappings in the last thirty or eighty years or
something, then I can understand the alarm. Hell, even "I" would be ****ed
if somebody was trying to steal or defile MY unknown bones! ****! Who
WOULDN'T be? THAT'S what I WANNA KNOW! And, "live ammo"? I should hope ta
fukkin shout it's ****in live! What the **** is DEAD ammo good
for?.......huh?!! :(

Still, I try to be reasonable. I hear some pinko asshole ask "who the ****
is gonna desecrate something whose existence they aren't even aware of on a
day that is SO ****in rotten that even the ****heads in charge of the honor
guard say 'hey, ya'll wanna take a smoke break.....go ahead....ain't no sand
******s, slopes, wogs, zips, commies, jerrys, wops, bohunks, heinies, etc.
on the monitor just now.....but be back in five minutes....or else...' and
I, for one, am perfectly willing to kill him BEFORE I gut him.

Wolfgang
i dunno.......just liberal, i guess.

[Wolfgang]

"Frank Reid" <moc.deepselbac@diersicnarf> wrote in message
...
> > Marvelously stated. Thanks, comrade.
>
> Comrade? COMRADE? Uh, you must be mistaken, uh, uh, it was only a
> business, uh tourist trip. Yeh, thats it, I liked the artwork.... Uh,
> besides, the Wall was falling, and I, uh, just wanted to see what it
looked
> like... I'm not a comrade. See, look, no membership card...

So, Amerikanski tovarisch, it seems that we no longer need your services.
And it falls to one of your own to provide a satisfactory end to our
relationship without the need for embarrassing recriminations or financial
indelicacies, yada yada.

Spasebo, komrad Leni.........um......Leno.

Fearless Leader

[slenon]

>Spasebo, komrad Leni.........um......Leno.
>Fearless Leader

Either spellink vill do,Volfgank! Like others from long time ago, you
should be avare, vas Ulanov for him, Sobelman for me. And is Bronstein for
Lev Davidovich.

Bolshoiyeh Spasebo, indeed!

Now, vere is Moose and Squirrel?
----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[slenon]

Wolfgang:
>And this brings us (by the short route, I admit) right back to where we
started. Just WHO or WHAT in hell are all these
brave and honorable Spartans protecting all these unidentified (snip) bones
FROM?

While Falstaff's soliliquy is of marvelous construction and somewhat to the
point when one is called upon to do battle and give no quarter, it is not
entirely meet to the question at hand.

And I wasn't aware that the beer of that ancient name and unpalatable
quality was still being brewed and sold. There's no accounting for taste or
lack of ability to discern quality.

But back to the subject. Deeds of honor, codes of honor, men of honor,
women of honor, all the things we do, as you so correctly state, because
they fit the elusive and hard to define category of "the right thing to do"
fall short of this topic. Crawling out under fire to secure and treat
wounded is the right thing to do but the act of doing so is not the honor
that we are debating.

There is another "honor", also because it is the right thing to do, that we
speak of here. The guards at the Tomb of the Unknowns are there to remind
anyone with eyes to see that the men and women of our military, and through
them, the nation, pay homage to the memory of those who fell in battle and
lay upon the field unknown at war's end. We honor their memory, their
sacrifice, their loss, their dedication, their fears, their pain, and their
families. Those who mount that particular guard are symbols that tell all
American troops that their comrades will not let them die unmourned or
forgotten. And that may not matter to those of you who have never served in
the armed forces. The honor guards aren't there for you. The effort of
walking that post in a hurricane, a blizzard, or in scorching sun is not
intended for the civilians who come to watch, or for the uninformed who make
light of their devotion to this post.

Yes, the tomb could be monitored by a camera and computer or rent-a-cops.
But earned military honors can not be rendered by cameras and security
guards. The troops who walkd those guard shifts are not there so much to
protect as to afford the honor and dignity that the situation calls for.
And the rifles are loaded because soldiers carry weapons with ammunition.

You point out that the bodies may even be those of soldiers from other
nations. That is true, they may, even though great care was taken to find
bodies from our forces. But in death, all soldiers are comrades. So I
honor the soldiers who died in my war regardless of their uniform. Their
death removed their enemy status.

What troubles me most in this thread is not that people fail to understand
this manner of conduct and behavior, but that they are unable to do so.

I went fishing and thought about this before I posted this response. I
rather suspect that trying to instill a sense of why this guard post is
maintained as it is falls into the category of giving voice lessons to
swine.
----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69

[Stan Gula]

"slenon" > wrote in message
...
> And that may not matter to those of you who have never served in
> the armed forces. The honor guards aren't there for you. The effort of
> walking that post in a hurricane, a blizzard, or in scorching sun is not
> intended for the civilians who come to watch, or for the uninformed who
make
> light of their devotion to this post.

Well, I don't get your viewpoint on this. Risking injury and/or death by
standing out in a freaking hurricane is not 'honorable' to anything except
stupidity. There's got to be a line and to me this is about a hundred yards
past stupid.

1. Standing out in the sun? OK
2. Standing out in the rain? OK
3. Standing out in a blizzard? Maybe
4. Standing out in active electrical storm? Stupid
5. Standing out in a hurricane? Stupid

So where's your line? Hurricanes apparently are a reasonable risk. How
about radioactive fallout? Basketball sized hail?

--Stan (saw my neighbor get hit by a tree during Hurricane Bob)

[slenon]

Greg:
> Vii znaiite sliishkom mnogo, tovarishch, iia dolzhin
> bydy vas ybiit.

Sorry, Greg, but beyond tovarishch that exceeds what limited Russian I
still recall. I still recall a few phrases and common vulgarities but not
sufficient to do more than get lost after ordering a beer.

I do have a favorite answer to all sports trivia questions, however. The
athlete in question is either that Russian fellow or that Russian woman.
(****ivino or ****ivinova) No disrespect intended. My family left the
Russia around the time of the October Revolution.
----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[slenon]

>So where's your line? Hurricanes apparently are a reasonable risk. How
>about radioactive fallout? Basketball sized hail?
>Stan (saw my neighbor get hit by a tree during Hurricane Bob)

To my physical and mental limits, Stan. Everyone's breaking point is
different. But the troops here weren't forced to pull this duty. They were
offered relief due to weather and chose to not take that relief. It was to
them a matter of respect for fallen soldiers and a duty that they were proud
to pull.

>Risking injury and/or death by standing out in a freaking hurricane is not
'honorable' to anything except stupidity.

Like others you are assuming that the troops on guard duty, called an honor
guard, somehow achieve honor by refusing to quit their posts.
But they are there to render honor, not garner honor.

This is a case where the gulf between civilians and people with military
service is inestimable. It either means nothing to you or it means more
than you can sucessfully relate. I don't mean to cop the "you had to be
there" line. But in this case it is appropriate.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[rw]

obROFF

"For approximately the first five years of its existence, the Patriotic
Studies discipline proceeded under the assumption that these
fluid-nations were benign entities, whose existence threatened neither
the stability nor the integrity of the traditional geo-nation. A classic
study of this period was conducted by Emmons, Denny, and Smith,
concerning the fluid-nation Men Who Fish. Using statistical methods of
retroattribution, the authors were able to show that, in time of
national crisis (Battle of the Bulge, Europe, 1944), American citizens
who were also citizens of Men Who Fish performed their duties every bit
as efficiently (+/- 5 Assessment Units) as did members of the control
group, even when that duty involved inflicting "harm" to "serious harm"
on Men Who Fish who were allied at the time with the opposing geo-nation
(i.e., Germany). During this battle, as many as seventy-five hundred
(and no fewer than five thousand) German soldiers who were also members
of Men Who Fish were killed or wounded by American soldiers who were
members of Men Who Fish, leading the authors to conclude that citizens
of Men Who Fish were not 'expected, in a time of national crisis, to
respond significantly less patriotically than a control group of men of
similar age, class, etc., who are not citizans of Men Who Fish.'"

[excerpted from A Survey of the Literature, Shouts and Murmurs, The New
Yorker, Sept. 22, 2003]

[Ken Fortenberry]

Stan Gula wrote:
>
> ... Risking injury and/or death by
> standing out in a freaking hurricane is not 'honorable' to anything except
> stupidity. There's got to be a line and to me this is about a hundred yards
> past stupid. ...

Yeah, the Brits are the all time, world champeens of pompous and pretentious
military buffoonery and even THEY have enough sense to come in out of the rain.

If Louie or Frank wants to go to Arlington and do the twenty-one step fandango
in front of the tomb during a ****ing hurricane, more power to them, but when
active duty military do it, and they get hurt or killed, it costs taxpayers
lots of real money. At some point common sense has to prevail over so-called
military "honor".

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Peter Charles]

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:22:15 GMT, (Greg Pavlov)
wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:06:21 GMT, "slenon" >
>wrote:
>
>>My family left the
>>Russia around the time of the October Revolution.
>
>
> Mine tried to hang on for a while, both grandfathers were
> in the white armies, but eventually were rescued by
> English, who evacuated them across the Black Sea to
> Turkey. I show my eternal gratitude by suffering to fish
> with Peter on occasion (a meal or two from Suzy has its
> attractions as well)


Hell, it could be worse, you might have had to fish with Suzy and eat
MY cooking!!

(sheesh, the English get blamed for everything . . . . )

Peter

[Stan Gula]

"slenon" > wrote in message
...
> Like others you are assuming that the troops on guard duty, called an
honor
> guard, somehow achieve honor by refusing to quit their posts.
> But they are there to render honor, not garner honor.

You are quite wrong about my assumptions.

I'll repeat: Risking injury and/or death by standing out in a freaking
hurricane is not
'honorable' to anything except stupidity.

Note the phrase "'honorable' to anything".

EOT for me.

[Ernie]

.com...
> Stan Gula wrote:
> >
> > ... Risking injury and/or death by
> > standing out in a freaking hurricane is not 'honorable' to anything
except
> > stupidity. There's got to be a line and to me this is about a hundred
yards
> > past stupid. ...

The stupidest duty I ever had was in Hawaii on the Island of Oahu. There
were tidal wave warnings and they evacuated a small town on the western side
where they hold the surfing championships. I was given an M1 and a clip of
ammo, driven to a street and told to shoot any looters. The ocean was 400
yards in front of me, the mountains were two miles behind me. As I stood
there waiting for the tidal wave I wondered how far I could get before the
tidal wave caught me.
Ernie

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:31:07 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
> wrote:

>This story will warm the cockles of your heart and make you
>wonder about having sense enough to come in out of the rain.
>
>http://msnbc.com/news/969061.asp?0sl=-41


Well, yeah, it was stupid of them. If I were a member of the honor
guard, however, I'd have been out there on my shift, cursing the
weather.

It's one of those emotional things that defy sense.

I was so ****ed off on 9-11 that one of the bosses decided he had to
stay there until after I went home as we'd all been ordered to do. It
was _Minneapolis_ fer crimmeny. Not quite as unlikely a target as
Des Moines (btw, it's my opinion that an enormous terrorist strike in
Des Moines would upset the country way more than almost anywhere
else.), but close. I figured that if I went home from work, the
terrorists won another point. If I'd felt personal danger, I might
have reasoned otherwise, but it looked like a great time to catch up
on some work without interruptions from phones and coworkers to me.
--

rbc:vixen,Minnow Goddess,Willow Watcher,and all that sort of thing.
Often taunted by trout.
Only a fool would refuse to believe in luck. Only a damn fool would rely on it.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli

[Lennie Richardson]

Ken, I have a few questions for you and I'm top posting them to **** you
off:

1. Have you ever been outside in a hurricane?
2. What do you believe would have been an appropriate course of action for
those guarding the tomb?
3. What does choosing to do one's job instead of being run off by a little
weather have to do with sense?
4. What is the payoff for delivering backhanded insults to strangers?
5. Are you somehow better than those who chose to stay on guard through the
storm?
6. What was the point of your post?
7. Do you ever start on-topic threads any more?

I expect your answers will have as much grace and charm as your other
writings.

LR
top-posting hink

"Ken Fortenberry" > wrote in message
.com...
> This story will warm the cockles of your heart and make you
> wonder about having sense enough to come in out of the rain.
>
> http://msnbc.com/news/969061.asp?0sl=-41
>
> --
> Ken Fortenberry
>

[Ken Fortenberry]

Lennie Richardson wrote:

> Ken, I have a few questions for you and I'm top posting them to **** you
> off: ...

**** off.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Lennie Richardson]

"Ken Fortenberry" > wrote in message
.com...
> Lennie Richardson wrote:
>
> > Ken, I have a few questions for you and I'm top posting them to **** you
> > off: ...
>
> **** off.
>
> --
> Ken Fortenberry
>

Yeah, I didn't think you'd answer them.

LR

[slenon]

Greg:
> Mine tried to hang on for a while, both >grandfathers were in the white
armies

My Great-grandfather was beaten to death in a pogrom prior to the family's
departure. His wife died en-route. My grandmother sold whiskey to the
troops along the train route out of Russia. But she only sold to the Reds.
She had no use for the Whites. All seven children made it out. The last
just died in March at 102.

--

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[Wolfgang]

"slenon" > wrote in message
...


> .....What troubles me most in this thread is not that people fail to
understand
> this manner of conduct and behavior, but that they are unable to do so.

What troubles me is your failure to comprehend the simple and obvious fact
that you have encountered no such person. Well, that's what would trouble
me if I were troubled by such things, anyway.

> I went fishing and thought about this before I posted this response.

You should have fished a while longer.

> I rather suspect that trying to instill a sense of why this guard post is
> maintained as it is falls into the category of giving voice lessons to
> swine.

Your suspicions betray a good deal more about you than they do about pork.
Tell yourself differently for as long as you like, but I assure you that no
one who has contributed to this thread thus far has shown any evidence of
failing to understand why the post is maintained, or any of the simple
minded pseudo patriotic twaddle you've been peddling. Perhaps someone will
take pity on you and explain just what it is they question or object to in
terms you can understand.......but I doubt it. It IS kinda fun to watch the
twitching. :)

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang]

"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
...
> "slenon" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Like others you are assuming that the troops on guard duty, called an
> honor
> > guard, somehow achieve honor by refusing to quit their posts.
> > But they are there to render honor, not garner honor.
>
> You are quite wrong about my assumptions.
>
> I'll repeat: Risking injury and/or death by standing out in a freaking
> hurricane is not
> 'honorable' to anything except stupidity.
>
> Note the phrase "'honorable' to anything".
>
> EOT for me.

See what I mean, S? :)

I've met Stan. I, as well as many others here, can attest that aside from a
certain .....um......challengedness with regard to opening potables
containers he has shown precious little evidence of mental deficiency. Take
it upon yourself to lecture this group about ANYTHING at your peril.

Where DO you think you are, kid?

Wolfgang

[slenon]

Greg:
>And a tradition such as this one strikes me as being a hell of a lot more
> meaningful than the half-cocked college weekend football
> rivalry where aging alumni fling insults at each other and
> get soused while boy surrogates actually do something on the field below.

We are in complete agreement. We note the decay of Roman civilization yet
our bread and circuses for the masses are far worse and equally indicative
of social problems. I get a real kick out of seeing people wear
professional player's jersey copies as if the abilty, money, and fame will
some how be transferred to them. The British once postulated the
student-athlete. We've managed to corrupt that concept as surely as we have
changed the language.

> The argument about danger also seems specious when
> one considers things that other people do on a regular
> basis to satisfy a personal urge.

Or, what the troops due before and after their assignment to this ceremonial
unit. BTW, they also provide final escort and honors to those buried at
Arlington National Cemetary. Probably another custom that some consider
worthy of derision.


--

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[Wolfgang]

"Ernie" <NO_ > wrote in message
m...
>
> .com...
> > Stan Gula wrote:
> > >
> > > ... Risking injury and/or death by
> > > standing out in a freaking hurricane is not 'honorable' to anything
> except
> > > stupidity. There's got to be a line and to me this is about a hundred
> yards
> > > past stupid. ...
>
> The stupidest duty I ever had was in Hawaii on the Island of Oahu. There
> were tidal wave warnings and they evacuated a small town on the western
side
> where they hold the surfing championships. I was given an M1 and a clip
of
> ammo, driven to a street and told to shoot any looters. The ocean was
400
> yards in front of me, the mountains were two miles behind me. As I stood
> there waiting for the tidal wave I wondered how far I could get before the
> tidal wave caught me.
> Ernie

An honorable soldier would'a just shot the fukkin thing. I am sorely
disappointed in you, Ernie. :(

Wolfgang
who supposes they just don't make 'em the way they used to.

[Tim J.]

"Wolfgang" wrote...
> "Stan Gula" wrote...
> > "slenon" wrote...
> > > Like others you are assuming that the troops on guard duty, called an
> > honor
> > > guard, somehow achieve honor by refusing to quit their posts.
> > > But they are there to render honor, not garner honor.
> >
> > You are quite wrong about my assumptions.
> >
> > I'll repeat: Risking injury and/or death by standing out in a freaking
> > hurricane is not
> > 'honorable' to anything except stupidity.
> >
> > Note the phrase "'honorable' to anything".
> >
> > EOT for me.
>
> See what I mean, S? :)
>
> I've met Stan. I, as well as many others here, can attest that aside from a
> certain .....um......challengedness with regard to opening potables
> containers he has shown precious little evidence of mental deficiency.

Have you stood up in a boat while he was at the tiller?
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

[Wolfgang]

"Tim J." > wrote in message
et...
>
> "Wolfgang" wrote...
> > "Stan Gula" wrote...
> > > "slenon" wrote...
> > > > Like others you are assuming that the troops on guard duty, called
an
> > > honor
> > > > guard, somehow achieve honor by refusing to quit their posts.
> > > > But they are there to render honor, not garner honor.
> > >
> > > You are quite wrong about my assumptions.
> > >
> > > I'll repeat: Risking injury and/or death by standing out in a freaking
> > > hurricane is not
> > > 'honorable' to anything except stupidity.
> > >
> > > Note the phrase "'honorable' to anything".
> > >
> > > EOT for me.
> >
> > See what I mean, S? :)
> >
> > I've met Stan. I, as well as many others here, can attest that aside
from a
> > certain .....um......challengedness with regard to opening potables
> > containers he has shown precious little evidence of mental deficiency.
>
> Have you stood up in a boat while he was at the tiller?

MY faculties were not at issue.

Wolfgang
have you? :)

[Wolfgang]

"slenon" > wrote in message
. ..
> .....I get a real kick out of seeing people wear
> professional player's jersey copies as if the abilty, money, and fame will
> some how be transferred to them.....

It isn't about some sort of primitive fetish. It's about
hon.....um.....well, never mind......you wouldn't understand.

Wolfgang

[Frank Reid]

> And a tradition
> such as this one strikes me as being a hell of a lot more
> meaningful than the half-cocked college weekend football
> rivalry where aging alumni fling insults at each other and
> get soused while boy surrogates actually do something
> on the field below.

Like, what are the odds of one of the people going to a Virginia Tech game
in a hurricane getting injured vice the one to two guards at the tomb.
--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply

[Ken Fortenberry]

Frank Reid wrote:
>
> Like, what are the odds of one of the people going to a Virginia Tech game
> in a hurricane getting injured vice the one to two guards at the tomb.

But if the Virginia Tech fan gets injured, chances are I don't have to
pay his hospital bills or send his kids to college.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Wolfgang]

"Frank Reid" <moc.deepselbac@diersicnarf> wrote in message
...
> > And a tradition
> > such as this one strikes me as being a hell of a lot more
> > meaningful than the half-cocked college weekend football
> > rivalry where aging alumni fling insults at each other and
> > get soused while boy surrogates actually do something
> > on the field below.
>
> Like, what are the odds of one of the people going to a Virginia Tech game
> in a hurricane getting injured vice the one to two guards at the tomb.

Interesting point. However, till now, everyone seems to have missed the
REALLY interesting point to this whole affair. That the honor guard would
stay at their posts despite the option to stand down is pretty much a given,
regardless of how one feels about it. After all, whatever their own
individual motives for doing that particular job (and exploring those
motives might prove to be a fascinating exercise for another time), they
are all doubtless well aware of the consequences.....which I will assume
need not be elaborated on.....of such an action. Big deal. No news.

No, what is most interesting about this is that they were given the option
to stand down due what was presumably perceived to be a real threat to their
safety. The fact that they were given the option suggests not only that the
threat was real, but also, and importantly, that the service they were
providing was NOT deemed to be important enough for anyone to order that
they remain at their posts and bear the risk. In other words, the piece of
**** that gave them the option to stand down should be shot and THEN
court-martialed. Those men should have been ORDERED to stand down.

On the other hand, had anyone involved been guilty of the good sense God
gave an oyster, we would all have been deprived of yet another opportunity
for fools to prate about honor. But then, that's why we have cemeteries
full of known and unknown dead men, ainna? :)

Wolfgang

[Tim J.]

"Wolfgang" wrote...
> "Tim J." wrote...
> > "Wolfgang" wrote...
> > > "Stan Gula" wrote...
> > > > "slenon" wrote...
> > > > > Like others you are assuming that the troops on guard duty, called
> an
> > > > honor
> > > > > guard, somehow achieve honor by refusing to quit their posts.
> > > > > But they are there to render honor, not garner honor.
> > > >
> > > > You are quite wrong about my assumptions.
> > > >
> > > > I'll repeat: Risking injury and/or death by standing out in a freaking
> > > > hurricane is not
> > > > 'honorable' to anything except stupidity.
> > > >
> > > > Note the phrase "'honorable' to anything".
> > > >
> > > > EOT for me.
> > >
> > > See what I mean, S? :)
> > >
> > > I've met Stan. I, as well as many others here, can attest that aside
> from a
> > > certain .....um......challengedness with regard to opening potables
> > > containers he has shown precious little evidence of mental deficiency.
> >
> > Have you stood up in a boat while he was at the tiller?
>
> MY faculties were not at issue.
>
> Wolfgang
> have you? :)

er, EOT for me, too. :)

[Warren]

wrote...
> Yeah, I didn't think you'd answer them.

You expected more?

LOL!

Now *that's* freakin' hilarious!
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)

[slenon]

Greg:
> ... could well have been by one of *my* great-grandfathers...

Since we're unlikely to know and we're both here, it is far better to not
try to solve that riddle and go fishing instead.

--

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[slenon]

Wolfgang:
>What troubles me is your failure to comprehend the simple and obvious fact
>that you have encountered no such person. Well, that's what would trouble
>me if I were troubled by such things, anyway.

I'm glad you are not troubled. Apparently my understanding of comments made
here by individuals differs from your take. I will continue to believe that
such persons exist.

>I assure you that no one who has contributed to this thread thus far has
shown any evidence of
>failing to understand why the post is maintained, or any of the simple
minded pseudo patriotic twaddle you've been peddling.

And I would counter that some of the contributors have no concept of what is
the actual motivation behind why soldiers actually do what they do. Yes my
posts say something about me. As do yours, you. Astute observation from
both of us. That aside, my understanding is biased by experience as is your
by lack of that experience.

>Perhaps someone will take pity on you and explain just what it is they
question or object to in
>terms you can understand.......but I doubt it. It IS kinda fun to watch
the twitching. :)

I'm unlikely to comprehend that view. I've never been a believer in the
social heirarchies of high school, particularly when extended and carried
into university and adult life. My loyalties are otherwise directed.

I'd have fished much longer but the tides turned and the pain meds wore off.
The twitching you note does give an interesting action to some of the flies.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[slenon]

>Take it upon yourself to lecture this group about ANYTHING at your peril.
>Where DO you think you are, kid?
>Wolfgang

Unless my maps and GPS are incorrect, the current location is Palmetto
Florida. Metaphysically, the answer to your question is equally clear to me
but I'll let you divine that when the next equinox comes around.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[slenon]

>It isn't about some sort of primitive fetish. It's about
>hon.....um.....well, never mind......you wouldn't understand.
>Wolfgang

No, I don't and won't. I use a much different cultural map.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[slenon]

Greg:
> My father was clearly anti-semitic, tho he mellowed
> as time went along. My brother and I fixed his wagon by marrying Jews.

That is a disease that will likely never be eradicated. But if we are lucky
we somehow escape the prejudices of our ancestors. Those could have been
interesting weddings.

Russia is seeing a resurgance of anti-Semitism that is apparently tolerated
by the state just as before. While they came from Russia, most Jews
struggled hard to become Americans and never considered Russia a place to
long to return to. The old country remained just that. Adaptation here was
the way to survive.

Of course, most of those who left came to hate the Reds as much as the
Whites.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[Ken Fortenberry]

Warren wrote:

> wrote...
>
>>Yeah, I didn't think you'd answer them.
>
> You expected more?
>
> LOL!
>
> Now *that's* freakin' hilarious!

OK, just for Warren:

1. Have you ever been outside in a hurricane?

Have you ever unscrewed the light bulb from a lamp, stuck your tongue
in the socket and turned it on ?

2. What do you believe would have been an appropriate course of action for
those guarding the tomb?

Quilting bees are nice, or maybe a tag team mah-jongg tournament.

3. What does choosing to do one's job instead of being run off by a little
weather have to do with sense?

That would be the difference between lacking any and having good.

4. What is the payoff for delivering backhanded insults to strangers?

It enrages all the right people.

5. Are you somehow better than those who chose to stay on guard through the
storm?

Better, no. Smarter, by a long shot, you betcha.

6. What was the point of your post?

All this and you didn't even read it ?

7. Do you ever start on-topic threads any more?

No, see #4.

HTH

--
Ken Fortenberry

[George Adams]

>From: Ken Fortenberry

>2. What do you believe would have been an appropriate course of action for
>those guarding the tomb?
>

>tag team mah-jongg tournament.

I hate to enter the fray at this late date, but I saw an interview with one of
the tomb guards on the news this A.M. As it turns out, they were never given
permission to abandon their posts, only to perform the ritual from behind the
columns of the tomb.

They opted stay in their normal position, as the shelter gained from the move
would have been mimimal, and they simply wanted to do their job. If the wind
speed had reached 120 MPH, they would have been ordered to stand down.

FWIW, routine operations on a carrier deck are likely much more dangerous than
guarding the tomb in a hurricane, and people operate on carriers every day.


George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller

[Wolfgang]

"George Adams" > wrote in message
...

> FWIW, routine operations on a carrier deck are likely much more
dangerous than
> guarding the tomb in a hurricane, and people operate on carriers
every day.

True, but it hardly speaks to the heart of the issue. Quite simply,
what is going on here is a disagreement over whether or not the task
at hand is worth the risk. It should be clear to any thinking person
that the very existence of aircraft carriers is predicated on the NEED
(whether real or perceived) to do certain dangerous jobs and that the
completion of those jobs entails a high degree of necessary personal
risk (though presumably minimized to the extent possible without
jeopardizing the mission.....but then such presumption a would
naturally lead one to suppose that whoever is in charge was opposed to
any needless risk of life for his or her subordinates.....uh huh.) for
those involved. An honor guard at a tomb, on the other hand, is
largely ceremonial. Even in this day and age of "terrorist" paranoia
only a relative few sick individuals take seriously the notion that
such a place is in any danger from anything more than a pack of
drunken frat boys with a can of spray paint......a threat that hardly
requires an armed guard, and ESPECIALLY not in a hurricane. All the
patriotic fervor in the world cannot prevent requiring someone to risk
his life needlessly in such circumstances from being criminally
stupid.

Wolfgang

[Ken Fortenberry]

George Adams wrote:

> ... As it turns out, they were never given
> permission to abandon their posts, ...

Well, that certainly changes my take on the situation. Reading the AP
report I thought it was silly, but if what you say is true, it goes
way beyond silly and borders on the insane.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Bones]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:20:18 -0700, rw >
wrote:

>Wolfgang wrote:
>>
>> True, but it hardly speaks to the heart of the issue. Quite simply,
>> what is going on here is a disagreement over whether or not the task
>> at hand is worth the risk.
>
>That's not the heart of the issue. The heart of the issue is that the
>dip**** Fortenberry saw fit to inflame ROFF with yet another off-topic
>link, designed to bring rises from people who are "patriotic."
>
>To my mind, that's far worse than an interesting TR that includes a bit
>of spam.

Seems to be the default course of the group as of late
anyway...someone ****es on someone's Wheaties and the two hundred post
thread war begins.

[Wolfgang]

"rw" > wrote in message
m...
> Wolfgang wrote:
> >
> > True, but it hardly speaks to the heart of the issue. Quite
simply,
> > what is going on here is a disagreement over whether or not the
task
> > at hand is worth the risk.
>
> That's not the heart of the issue. The heart of the issue is that
the
> dip**** Fortenberry saw fit to inflame ROFF with yet another
off-topic
> link, designed to bring rises from people who are "patriotic."
>
> To my mind, that's far worse than an interesting TR that includes a
bit
> of spam.

Well then, how very wise (not to mention self-disciplined) of you not
to read this tripe.

Wolfgang

[slenon]

Bones:
>Seems to be the default course of the group as of late
>anyway...someone ****es on someone's Wheaties and the two hundred post
thread war begins.

So perhaps the solution to that problem is a catheter and leg bag for
Fortenberry.

----
Stev - since I never drink milk, my Wheaties always go crunch.

[Stan Gula]

"Bones" > wrote:

> Seems to be the default course of the group as of late
> anyway...someone ****es on someone's Wheaties and the two hundred post
> thread war begins.

Judicious use of the 'ignore thread' feature of your newsreader can make
that less evident.

[Tim J.]

"Bones" wrote...
> rw wrote:
>
> >Wolfgang wrote:
> >>
> >> True, but it hardly speaks to the heart of the issue. Quite simply,
> >> what is going on here is a disagreement over whether or not the task
> >> at hand is worth the risk.
> >
> >That's not the heart of the issue. The heart of the issue is that the
> >dip**** Fortenberry saw fit to inflame ROFF with yet another off-topic
> >link, designed to bring rises from people who are "patriotic."
> >
> >To my mind, that's far worse than an interesting TR that includes a bit
> >of spam.
>
> Seems to be the default course of the group as of late
> anyway...someone ****es on someone's Wheaties and the two hundred post
> thread war begins.

201?
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

[Wolfgang]

"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bones" > wrote:
>
> > Seems to be the default course of the group as of late
> > anyway...someone ****es on someone's Wheaties and the two hundred
post
> > thread war begins.
>
> Judicious use of the 'ignore thread' feature of your newsreader can
make
> that less evident.

True, but then one is left with a newsgroup full of fishing. Gack!
:(

Wolfgang
um......speaking of which, what's the best way to attach a leader to a
fly line?

[Wolfgang]

"Tim J." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bones" wrote...
> > rw wrote:
> >
> > >Wolfgang wrote:
> > >>
> > >> True, but it hardly speaks to the heart of the issue. Quite
simply,
> > >> what is going on here is a disagreement over whether or not the
task
> > >> at hand is worth the risk.
> > >
> > >That's not the heart of the issue. The heart of the issue is that
the
> > >dip**** Fortenberry saw fit to inflame ROFF with yet another
off-topic
> > >link, designed to bring rises from people who are "patriotic."
> > >
> > >To my mind, that's far worse than an interesting TR that includes
a bit
> > >of spam.
> >
> > Seems to be the default course of the group as of late
> > anyway...someone ****es on someone's Wheaties and the two hundred
post
> > thread war begins.
>
> 201?

202...........putz.

Wolfgang

[Stan Gula]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...

> Wolfgang
> um......speaking of which, what's the best way to attach a leader to a
> fly line?
>

When I was in Boy Scouts, we used to just use superglue. They would be
****ed for a while, but everybody got laughs when the story was retold
around the campfire later that evening.

[Ken Fortenberry]

rw wrote:
>
> That's not the heart of the issue. ...

Tee hee. See #4, you ****ing putz.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Willi]

Ken Fortenberry wrote:


>
> 4. What is the payoff for delivering backhanded insults to strangers?
>
> It enrages all the right people.


Not so sure how you know it's always just the "right" ones.

I know you think you entertain your friends with that stuff. You see
himself as THE asshole of ROFF and inexplicably hold that label up with
pride. I find it ****in' sad that you feel you need to act that way in
order to make "something" of yourself.

Willi

[slenon]

Stan:
>When I was in Boy Scouts, we used to just use superglue. They would be
>****ed for a while, but everybody got laughs when the story was retold
>around the campfire later that evening.

We used a square lashing. But that was before superglue.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[rw]

Wolfgang wrote:
>
> True, but it hardly speaks to the heart of the issue. Quite simply,
> what is going on here is a disagreement over whether or not the task
> at hand is worth the risk.

That's not the heart of the issue. The heart of the issue is that the
dip**** Fortenberry saw fit to inflame ROFF with yet another off-topic
link, designed to bring rises from people who are "patriotic."

To my mind, that's far worse than an interesting TR that includes a bit
of spam.

[DrewPatterson]

Willi wrote:

>
>
> Ken Fortenberry wrote:
>
>
>>
>> 4. What is the payoff for delivering backhanded insults to strangers?
>>
>> It enrages all the right people.
>
>
>
> Not so sure how you know it's always just the "right" ones.
>
> I know you think you entertain your friends with that stuff. You see
> himself as THE asshole of ROFF and inexplicably hold that label up with
> pride. I find it ****in' sad that you feel you need to act that way in
> order to make "something" of yourself.
>
> Willi
>
>

An awesome legacy he leaves behind, dontcha think.

Snicker.

Drew

[Wolfgang]

"DrewPatterson" > wrote in message
...
> Willi wrote:

> > I know you think you entertain your friends with that stuff. You see
> > himself as THE asshole of ROFF and inexplicably hold that label up with
> > pride. I find it ****in' sad that you feel you need to act that way in
> > order to make "something" of yourself.
> >
> > Willi
> >
> >
>
> An awesome legacy he leaves behind, dontcha think.
>
> Snicker.
>
> Drew

Well, not that Ken needs or has asked for a defense.....or deserves one, for
that matter.....but, I'd like to suggest that everyone....yes, EVERY* one,
who has survived in this circus for a year or more has left a considerable
legacy. It's easy enough to spot other people's blemishes and worry
them......hell, even "I" can do that.....sometimes.......but examine any
individual's entire corpus of work here for a couple of years and I think
you'll find some nuggets.

Wolfgang
*well, o.k., there was ONE exception. :)

[Ken Fortenberry]

Willi wrote:
>
> ... I find it ****in' sad that you feel you need to act that way in
> order to make "something" of yourself.

Assigning motivation to others is fraught with peril. Truth is, as much
as you'd like to think that you have an omnipotent view from atop that
high horse of yours, you don't know jack ****. And posting crap like
this is just as offensive as any flame, not to mention snide and self-
important.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Charlie Choc]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:12:01 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
> wrote:

>Assigning motivation to others is fraught with peril. Truth is, as much
>as you'd like to think that you have an omnipotent view from atop that
>high horse of yours, you don't know jack ****. And posting crap like
>this is just as offensive as any flame, not to mention snide and self-
>important.

The above describes 'upwards of' 90% of what *you* post.
--
Charlie...

[DrewPatterson]

Wolfgang wrote:

>>An awesome legacy he leaves behind, dontcha think.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Well, not that Ken needs or has asked for a defense.....or deserves one, for
>that matter.....but, I'd like to suggest that everyone....yes, EVERY* one,
>who has survived in this circus for a year or more has left a considerable
>legacy.
>

I'm referring to the *quality* of the legacy left behind in this
eternal/infernal resource.

>It's easy enough to spot other people's blemishes and worry
>them......hell, even "I" can do that.....sometimes.......but examine any
>individual's entire corpus of work here for a couple of years and I think
>you'll find some nuggets.
>

There's a difference, IMO, between *nuggets* and the *mother lode*.

>*well, o.k., there was ONE exception. :)
>

And I find that sad.


When we die, we get a dash of equal size on our tombstone.

Born: 19xx "dash" Died: 20xx.

It's what you *do* with your dash that sets us apart.


Unfortunately, Usenet can't be erased like graffiti or trashed like old
love letters.

Drew
Just my take.

[Ken Fortenberry]

Charlie Choc wrote:
>
> The above describes 'upwards of' 90% of what *you* post.

**** you, Choc.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Charlie Choc]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:26:05 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
> wrote:

>Charlie Choc wrote:
>>
>> The above describes 'upwards of' 90% of what *you* post.
>
>**** you, Choc.

OK, 99%.
--
Charlie...

[Ken Fortenberry]

Charlie Choc wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:26:05 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Charlie Choc wrote:
>>
>>>The above describes 'upwards of' 90% of what *you* post.
>>
>>**** you, Choc.
>
>
> OK, 99%.

Hey ! A good old-fashioned, straightforward "**** you", was supposed to
REDUCE the ratio of snide, self-important, disdainful insults (Willi posts)
to total posts not INCREASE it.

Now, of course, with THIS post, the ratio is right back where it started, ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Danl]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stan Gula" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Bones" > wrote:
> >
> > > Seems to be the default course of the group as of late
> > > anyway...someone ****es on someone's Wheaties and the two hundred
> post
> > > thread war begins.
> >
> > Judicious use of the 'ignore thread' feature of your newsreader can
> make
> > that less evident.
>
> True, but then one is left with a newsgroup full of fishing. Gack!
> :(
>
> Wolfgang
> um......speaking of which, what's the best way to attach a leader to a
> fly line?


Around his neck?

Danl

[Wolfgang]

"Danl" > wrote in message
...
>
> ......what's the best way to attach a leader to a
> > fly line?
>
>
> Around his neck?
>
> Danl

Breathtaking!

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang]

"DrewPatterson" > wrote in message
...
> Wolfgang wrote:
>
> >>An awesome legacy he leaves behind, dontcha think.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Well, not that Ken needs or has asked for a defense.....or deserves
one, for
> >that matter.....but, I'd like to suggest that everyone....yes,
EVERY* one,
> >who has survived in this circus for a year or more has left a
considerable
> >legacy.
> >
>
> I'm referring to the *quality* of the legacy left behind in this
> eternal/infernal resource.

See, that's English for ya.......I never would have guessed that.

> >It's easy enough to spot other people's blemishes and worry
> >them......hell, even "I" can do that.....sometimes.......but
examine any
> >individual's entire corpus of work here for a couple of years and I
think
> >you'll find some nuggets.
> >
>
> There's a difference, IMO, between *nuggets* and the *mother lode*.

Izzatafact? Um........o.k., yeah, I see your point. This is quite a
load you've dropped here yourself, Mom.

> >*well, o.k., there was ONE exception. :)
> >
>
> And I find that sad.

We are surprised that you found it at all. Large and obtrusive as it
is, we would have expected you'd have trouble finding your ass in a
well lit room.

> When we die, we get a dash of equal size on our tombstone.

Not quite. I'm sure you'll get extra points for profundity.

> Born: 19xx "dash" Died: 20xx.
>
> It's what you *do* with your dash that sets us apart.

What you (singular and/or plural) do with your bit of éclat is your
business. I suspect that very few here wish to be privy to your
habits a la privy.

> Unfortunately, Usenet can't be erased like graffiti or trashed like
old
> love letters.

You DO know you don't have to read it..........right?

> Drew
> Just my take.

Well, don't forget to take it with you on the way out.

Wolfgang

[DrewPatterson]

Wolfgang blathered the following:

>"DrewPatterson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>Wolfgang wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>An awesome legacy he leaves behind, dontcha think.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Well, not that Ken needs or has asked for a defense.....or deserves
>>>
>>>
>one, for
>
>
>>>that matter.....but, I'd like to suggest that everyone....yes,
>>>
>>>
>EVERY* one,
>
>
>>>who has survived in this circus for a year or more has left a
>>>
>>>
>considerable
>
>
>>>legacy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I'm referring to the *quality* of the legacy left behind in this
>>eternal/infernal resource.
>>
>>
>
>See, that's English for ya.......I never would have guessed that.
>
>
>
>>>It's easy enough to spot other people's blemishes and worry
>>>them......hell, even "I" can do that.....sometimes.......but
>>>
>>>
>examine any
>
>
>>>individual's entire corpus of work here for a couple of years and I
>>>
>>>
>think
>
>
>>>you'll find some nuggets.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>There's a difference, IMO, between *nuggets* and the *mother lode*.
>>
>>
>
>Izzatafact? Um........o.k., yeah, I see your point. This is quite a
>load you've dropped here yourself, Mom.
>

I'll sleep well tonight.

>
>
>
>>>*well, o.k., there was ONE exception. :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>And I find that sad.
>>
>>
>
>We are surprised that you found it at all. Large and obtrusive as it
>is, we would have expected you'd have trouble finding your ass in a
>well lit room.
>

We?

Who are you hiding behind?

Do you have to speak for a collective group to validate your position?

>
>
>
>>When we die, we get a dash of equal size on our tombstone.
>>
>>
>
>Not quite. I'm sure you'll get extra points for profundity.
>

Thanks, but didn't you mean "We're sure..."?

>
>
>
>>Born: 19xx "dash" Died: 20xx.
>>
>>It's what you *do* with your dash that sets us apart.
>>
>>
>
>What you (singular and/or plural) do with your bit of éclat is your
>business. I suspect that very few here wish to be privy to your
>habits a la privy.
>

Take a poll and get back with me.

>
>
>
>>Unfortunately, Usenet can't be erased like graffiti or trashed like
>>
>>
>old
>
>
>>love letters.
>>
>>
>
>You DO know you don't have to read it..........right?
>
>

I sure do, but I like to rubberneck at car wrecks.

>
>
>>Drew
>>Just my take.
>>
>>
>
>Well, don't forget to take it with you on the way out.
>
>Wolfgang
>
>
>
>

No thanks.

Drew

[Willi]

Ken Fortenberry wrote:
> Willi wrote:
>
>>
>> ... I find it ****in' sad that you feel you need to act that way in
>> order to make "something" of yourself.
>
>
> Assigning motivation to others is fraught with peril. Truth is, as much
> as you'd like to think that you have an omnipotent view from atop that
> high horse of yours, you don't know jack ****. And posting crap like
> this is just as offensive as any flame, not to mention snide and self-
> important.
>


Although I very well may not know jack ****, my statements were based on
things you have said.

I figured you'd find the post offensive when I wrote it. I do
occasionally write offensive posts, but with the exception of ones
directed at you, it's pretty infrequent. But don't worry, I think you
have the most offensive poster Emmy this year sewed up.


Willi

[Wolfgang]

"Willi" > wrote in message
...
>
> .....I think you
> have the most offensive poster Emmy this year sewed up.

Rats! I was ahead on points a week ago. What the hell happened?

Wolfgang
who is beginning to have some serious doubts about the east german
judges. :(

[Ken Fortenberry]

Wolfgang wrote:

> "Willi" wrote:
>
>>.....I think you
>>have the most offensive poster Emmy this year sewed up.
>
>
> Rats! I was ahead on points a week ago. What the hell happened?
>
> Wolfgang
> who is beginning to have some serious doubts about the east german
> judges. :(

I'd like to thank the Academy, my colleagues, all the "little people"
of roff and rec.music.gdead and especially the dip****s, putzes and
pricks for making this award possible. And to my good friend Wolfie
I can only say, better luck next year.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Frank Reid]

> > .....I think you
> > have the most offensive poster Emmy this year sewed up.
>
> Rats! I was ahead on points a week ago. What the hell happened?
>
> Wolfgang
> who is beginning to have some serious doubts about the east german
> judges. :(

Your problem is that rat tails, though at one time a valid form of currency
in some East German cities in the middle ages, have fallen out of favor.
Don't fit in the current wallets well. You might try bribing the German
judges with old "Dallas" episodes on video. They love that show.

--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply

[Frank Reid]

> I'd like to thank the Academy, my colleagues, all the "little people"
> of roff and rec.music.gdead and especially the dip****s, putzes and
> pricks for making this award possible.

Ken "Sybil" Fortenberry

[Kevin Vang]

Frank Reid wrote:

>. You might try bribing the German
> judges with old "Dallas" episodes on video. They love that show.


Or David Hasselhof concert tickets.

Kevin,
baffled

[Lennie Richardson]

suckle my cockle.

"Ken Fortenberry" > wrote in message
.com...
> Lennie Richardson wrote:
>
> > Ken, I have a few questions for you and I'm top posting them to **** you
> > off: ...
>
> **** off.
>
> --
> Ken Fortenberry
>

[Wayne Harrison]

"Lennie Richardson" > wrote in message
...
> suckle my cockle.
>
> "Ken Fortenberry" > wrote in message
> .com...
> > Lennie Richardson wrote:
> >
> > > Ken, I have a few questions for you and I'm top posting them to ****
you
> > > off: ...
> >
> > **** off.
> >
> > --
> > Ken Fortenberry

god, i love it when you boys talk dirty...

yfitons
wayno
> >
>
>

[Wolfgang]

"Kevin Vang" > wrote in message
...
> Frank Reid wrote:
>
> >. You might try bribing the German
> > judges with old "Dallas" episodes on video. They love that show.
>
>
> Or David Hasselhof concert tickets.
>
> Kevin,
> baffled
>

This is gonna get expensive. I already paid the French six hundred
pounds.........of Jerry Lewis.

Wolfgang
musing that performance enhancing drugs may not be all they're cracked up to
be. :(

[Jeff Miller]

Danl wrote:

> "Wolfgang" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>"Bones" > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Seems to be the default course of the group as of late
>>>>anyway...someone ****es on someone's Wheaties and the two hundred
>>
>>post
>>
>>>>thread war begins.
>>>
>>>Judicious use of the 'ignore thread' feature of your newsreader can
>>
>>make
>>
>>>that less evident.
>>
>>True, but then one is left with a newsgroup full of fishing. Gack!
>>:(
>>
>>Wolfgang
>>um......speaking of which, what's the best way to attach a leader to a
>>fly line?
>
>
>
> Around his neck?
>
> Danl
>
>

you boys must not have been scouts. we just encouraged the tenderfoot
scout to put the fly line on his dick...

[Danl]

"Jeff Miller" > wrote in message
news:1nNcb.3471$k74.1744@lakeread05...
>
>
> Danl wrote:
>
> > "Wolfgang" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>>"Bones" > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Seems to be the default course of the group as of late
> >>>>anyway...someone ****es on someone's Wheaties and the two hundred
> >>
> >>post
> >>
> >>>>thread war begins.
> >>>
> >>>Judicious use of the 'ignore thread' feature of your newsreader can
> >>
> >>make
> >>
> >>>that less evident.
> >>
> >>True, but then one is left with a newsgroup full of fishing. Gack!
> >>:(
> >>
> >>Wolfgang
> >>um......speaking of which, what's the best way to attach a leader to a
> >>fly line?
> >
> >
> >
> > Around his neck?
> >
> > Danl
> >
> >
>
> you boys must not have been scouts. we just encouraged the tenderfoot
> scout to put the fly line on his dick...
>

My fault, Jeff. I thought we was talking about "political leaders".

Danl

And if we weren't...maybe we should be.....

[Warren]

wrote...
> OK, just for Warren:
<snipped>

The sad part is that you just don't get it and I doubt you
ever will......

Get your ass out here so we can go fish and I'll try
explaining it to you. After a nice day of chasing a few fish
(I got a new spring creek for us to try), I'll cook you a damn
good meal and we'll discuss it over some Turpenfrog. ;-)
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)