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riverman
October 17th, 2003, 08:28 AM
GODDAMN!!

For a sport that supposed to be the apple pie of Americana, it sure stings
to watch the Cubs and Sox get pinched out once again. Our country is
supposed to stand for the rights of the little guy, the Reaganesque idea
that 'everyone can grow up to be a millionaire', the level playing field
where hard work and pureness of spirit pay off. But being a new englander,
and living in the shadow of the obtuse Great Satan with (as Forty put so
eloquently) its thuggish fans and overpaid prima donnas (and not just in
baseball), it is just abso****inglutely unfair and unamerican to put the
good people of the northeast through the yearly torture of building up their
hopes, filling them with small town pride and honor, then ripping their
hearts out with those filthy hands and stomping on them, laughing with those
stupid new york accents and spewing their disgusting sense of 'I got it all
and I want more' into the humble, pure country air of New England.

Argh. Unless you grew up in upper right hand corner, you have no idea of the
reality of how this affects your life each year, to see the hated, fat cat,
overpampered, flabby-armed new yorkers get their selfish, perverse little
way, once agian, in one more way at the expense of everyone around them. I
don't *care* who got the most runs....once again, the Bosox DESERVED to win.
This is just....so.....wrong!!

--riverman
(don't TALK to me right now.)

@(Peter A. Collin)rochester.rr.com
October 17th, 2003, 12:19 PM
riverman wrote:
> GODDAMN!!
>
> For a sport that supposed to be the apple pie of Americana, it sure stings
> to watch the Cubs and Sox get pinched out once again. Our country is
> supposed to stand for the rights of the little guy, the Reaganesque idea
> that 'everyone can grow up to be a millionaire', the level playing field
> where hard work and pureness of spirit pay off. But being a new englander,
> and living in the shadow of the obtuse Great Satan with (as Forty put so
> eloquently) its thuggish fans and overpaid prima donnas (and not just in
> baseball), it is just abso****inglutely unfair and unamerican to put the
> good people of the northeast through the yearly torture of building up their
> hopes, filling them with small town pride and honor, then ripping their
> hearts out with those filthy hands and stomping on them, laughing with those
> stupid new york accents and spewing their disgusting sense of 'I got it all
> and I want more' into the humble, pure country air of New England.
>
> Argh. Unless you grew up in upper right hand corner, you have no idea of the
> reality of how this affects your life each year, to see the hated, fat cat,
> overpampered, flabby-armed new yorkers get their selfish, perverse little
> way, once agian, in one more way at the expense of everyone around them. I
> don't *care* who got the most runs....once again, the Bosox DESERVED to win.
> This is just....so.....wrong!!
>
> --riverman
> (don't TALK to me right now.)
>
>
Thanks for the laugh. We needed it!

Memphis Jim
October 17th, 2003, 03:20 PM
"riverman" > wrote in message
...
> GODDAMN!!
>
> For a sport that supposed to be the apple pie of Americana, it sure stings
> to watch the Cubs and Sox get pinched out once again. Our country is
> supposed to stand for the rights of the little guy, the Reaganesque idea
> that 'everyone can grow up to be a millionaire', the level playing field
> where hard work and pureness of spirit pay off. But being a new englander,
> and living in the shadow of the obtuse Great Satan with (as Forty put so
> eloquently) its thuggish fans and overpaid prima donnas (and not just in
> baseball), it is just abso****inglutely unfair and unamerican to put the
> good people of the northeast through the yearly torture of building up
their
> hopes, filling them with small town pride and honor, then ripping their
> hearts out with those filthy hands and stomping on them, laughing with
those
> stupid new york accents and spewing their disgusting sense of 'I got it
all
> and I want more' into the humble, pure country air of New England.
>
> Argh. Unless you grew up in upper right hand corner, you have no idea of
the
> reality of how this affects your life each year, to see the hated, fat
cat,
> overpampered, flabby-armed new yorkers get their selfish, perverse little
> way, once agian, in one more way at the expense of everyone around them. I
> don't *care* who got the most runs....once again, the Bosox DESERVED to
win.
> This is just....so.....wrong!!
>
> --riverman
> (don't TALK to me right now.)


That is so much a metaphor for the way this country real is, and the way it
is being run. I'm voting New England in the next presidential election, and
I live in Tennessee.

Memphis Jim
>

Scott Seidman
October 17th, 2003, 03:22 PM
"riverman" > wrote in
:

> Argh. Unless you grew up in upper right hand corner, you have no idea
> of the reality of how this affects your life each year, to see the
> hated, fat cat, overpampered, flabby-armed new yorkers get their
> selfish, perverse little way, once agian, in one more way at the
> expense of everyone around them. I don't *care* who got the most
> runs....once again, the Bosox DESERVED to win. This is
> just....so.....wrong!!
>
> --riverman
> (don't TALK to me right now.)
>
>
>

Actually, after game 3, its hard to argue that they deserved to win.

Scott

riverman
October 17th, 2003, 06:32 PM
"Scott Seidman" > wrote in message
.4...
> "riverman" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Argh. Unless you grew up in upper right hand corner, you have no idea
> > of the reality of how this affects your life each year, to see the
> > hated, fat cat, overpampered, flabby-armed new yorkers get their
> > selfish, perverse little way, once agian, in one more way at the
> > expense of everyone around them. I don't *care* who got the most
> > runs....once again, the Bosox DESERVED to win. This is
> > just....so.....wrong!!
> >
> > --riverman
> > (don't TALK to me right now.)
> >
> >
> >
>
> Actually, after game 3, its hard to argue that they deserved to win.
>

Nonsense. They deserved to lose game 3. Their deserving to win the Pennant
and Series runs much, much deeper than that. Its in the air of New England,
the clean water, the resurgent salmon and trout, the hard-working-underpaid
labors of the rural folk of Maine and Vermont, the frugal 'getting-by'
attitude of entire towns, the simple values and deep friendships of college
buddies, the 'nature first' set of rules and laws they live by.

--riverman
(where's the freaking background violins when you need them!?)

Jonathan Cook
October 17th, 2003, 07:21 PM
"riverman" > wrote in message >...
>
> Argh. Unless you grew up in upper right hand corner, you have no idea of the
> reality of how this affects your life each year,

Relax, man...this "reality" has no impact at all on _real_ reality :-)
(and I grew up in Cleveland so I know a little about last-minute-losing
sports teams :-)

Seriously, though, I can't stand baseball. Its the most boring
professional sport out there. Except maybe soccer. (Oops, that's
not professional anymore, at least on this side of the pond.)

When I was still young I made a vow that I'd never choose to _watch_
a sports game if I had the opportunity to go out and actually play
one. Sure I could sit and enjoy a Browns game, but if someone else
was up for playing nine, I was outta there...turns out that a Browns
game is the best time to be out on the golf course...you have it
almost all to yourselves :-)

Now that I live out west, with _soo_ much to do outdoors all the time,
I can't hardly make it through a game on TV. It's just so boring.
Any sport.

Well, except golf. The Sunday round of a major where the leader board
is tight is awfully hard to beat...

I'm sure I'll get flamed for that!

Jon.

Ken Fortenberry
October 17th, 2003, 07:30 PM
Jonathan Cook wrote:
>
> Relax, man...this "reality" has no impact at all on _real_ reality :-)
> ...
> Seriously, though, I can't stand baseball. Its the most boring
> professional sport out there.
> ...
> I can't hardly make it through a game on TV. It's just so boring.
> Any sport.
>
> Well, except golf. The Sunday round of a major where the leader board
> is tight is awfully hard to beat...

Baseball is boring, but golf, GOLF !!, is hard to beat ?!?

Your "reality" has no impact at all on _real_ reality.

And baseball is boring only to those who don't understand baseball.

--
Ken Fortenberry- consider yourself flamed ;-)

Mark W. Oots
October 17th, 2003, 07:35 PM
My parents practiced the cruelest form of child abuse...they made me a Cubs
fan! My thoughts on the whole sad thing is this....The Cubbies choked and
the Red Sox did the same thing. Hex, curse, bad calls, bad press.....nothing
beats a team that won't give up...They both folded like a cheap suit, IMO.
The poor guy in Chitown that touched a foul ball (he was one of about 20
that reached for it) is being blamed for the collapse. The next pitch went
to the backstop and 8 runs scored before two more outs. Whose fault was
that?

Wait till next year! (sigh)....

Mark



"riverman" > wrote in message
...
> GODDAMN!!
>
> For a sport that supposed to be the apple pie of Americana, it sure stings
> to watch the Cubs and Sox get pinched out once again. Our country is
> supposed to stand for the rights of the little guy, the Reaganesque idea
> that 'everyone can grow up to be a millionaire', the level playing field
> where hard work and pureness of spirit pay off. But being a new englander,
> and living in the shadow of the obtuse Great Satan with (as Forty put so
> eloquently) its thuggish fans and overpaid prima donnas (and not just in
> baseball), it is just abso****inglutely unfair and unamerican to put the
> good people of the northeast through the yearly torture of building up
their
> hopes, filling them with small town pride and honor, then ripping their
> hearts out with those filthy hands and stomping on them, laughing with
those
> stupid new york accents and spewing their disgusting sense of 'I got it
all
> and I want more' into the humble, pure country air of New England.
>
> Argh. Unless you grew up in upper right hand corner, you have no idea of
the
> reality of how this affects your life each year, to see the hated, fat
cat,
> overpampered, flabby-armed new yorkers get their selfish, perverse little
> way, once agian, in one more way at the expense of everyone around them. I
> don't *care* who got the most runs....once again, the Bosox DESERVED to
win.
> This is just....so.....wrong!!
>
> --riverman
> (don't TALK to me right now.)
>
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 9/23/2003

Ken Fortenberry
October 17th, 2003, 08:04 PM
Mark W. Oots wrote:

> My parents practiced the cruelest form of child abuse...they made me a Cubs
> fan!

You have my deepest sympathies. I am a Cardinals fan and I can't even
begin to imagine the psychological damage you have endured. Although
the 1968 World Series did wreak havoc on my 11 year old psyche. ;-)

> ....The Cubbies choked and
> the Red Sox did the same thing. Hex, curse, bad calls, bad press.....nothing
> beats a team that won't give up...They both folded like a cheap suit, IMO.

You're full of it. Both the Cubs and the BoSox were beaten by better baseball
teams. Period, end of paragraph.

> The poor guy in Chitown that touched a foul ball (he was one of about 20
> that reached for it) is being blamed for the collapse. ...

He was one of about 4 or 5 but he's the one who knocked it away from Alou's
glove. He should be excoriated, he was a moron. He had a front row seat and
he ****ed up his own team. You cannot give a playoff team an extra out in
the eighth inning, it's inexcusable and stupid.

Meanwhile, from a cave in Pakistan

http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-walt-april.gallery

;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

Russell
October 17th, 2003, 08:04 PM
Ken Fortenberry wrote:

> And baseball is boring only to those who don't understand baseball.
>

Absolutely true.

Russell
(If you have to have it explained to you, you would never understand.)

asadi
October 17th, 2003, 08:33 PM
Uh, no. Now me? I 'really' hate baseball. It bothers me that it is receiving
so much news coverage right now.

Scratch my nuts and spit.....john

....don't like football either....golf...phooey......and hoops, I hate the
hoops too....


"riverman" > wrote in message
...
> GODDAMN!!
>
> For a sport that supposed to be the apple pie of Americana, it sure stings
> to watch the Cubs and Sox get pinched out once again. Our country is
> supposed to stand for the rights of the little guy, the Reaganesque idea
> that 'everyone can grow up to be a millionaire', the level playing field
> where hard work and pureness of spirit pay off. But being a new englander,
> and living in the shadow of the obtuse Great Satan with (as Forty put so
> eloquently) its thuggish fans and overpaid prima donnas (and not just in
> baseball), it is just abso****inglutely unfair and unamerican to put the
> good people of the northeast through the yearly torture of building up
their
> hopes, filling them with small town pride and honor, then ripping their
> hearts out with those filthy hands and stomping on them, laughing with
those
> stupid new york accents and spewing their disgusting sense of 'I got it
all
> and I want more' into the humble, pure country air of New England.
>
> Argh. Unless you grew up in upper right hand corner, you have no idea of
the
> reality of how this affects your life each year, to see the hated, fat
cat,
> overpampered, flabby-armed new yorkers get their selfish, perverse little
> way, once agian, in one more way at the expense of everyone around them. I
> don't *care* who got the most runs....once again, the Bosox DESERVED to
win.
> This is just....so.....wrong!!
>
> --riverman
> (don't TALK to me right now.)
>
>

Stan Gula
October 17th, 2003, 09:19 PM
"asadi" > wrote in message
...
> Uh, no. Now me? I 'really' hate baseball. It bothers me that it is
receiving
> so much news coverage right now.
>
> Scratch my nuts and spit.....john
>
> ...don't like football either....golf...phooey......and hoops, I hate the
> hoops too....
>

OK, but how do you feel about Slamball?

Charlie Choc
October 17th, 2003, 09:23 PM
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:19:14 GMT, "Stan Gula"
> wrote:

>OK, but how do you feel about Slamball?
>
Now there's a strategy game.
--
Charlie...

Graham Knight
October 17th, 2003, 09:39 PM
Russell wrote:
> Ken Fortenberry wrote:
>
>> And baseball is boring only to those who don't understand baseball.
>>
>
> Absolutely true.

I disagree. There was a period in my life that I really enjoyed
baseball, and I do understand it perfectly. Nowadays I find it boring
for the most part. I blame it on gaining an understanding of hockey. ;-)

Graham


--

And as an afterthought, this must too be told,
Some people are taking pure bull****, and turning it into gold.
- Grandpa Green (Greendale, CA USA)

What's happening in Idledale? Not Much! http://www.idledale.com/

Peter Charles
October 17th, 2003, 10:52 PM
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:39:34 -0600, Graham Knight
> wrote:

>
>
>Russell wrote:
>> Ken Fortenberry wrote:
>>
>>> And baseball is boring only to those who don't understand baseball.
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely true.
>
>I disagree. There was a period in my life that I really enjoyed
>baseball, and I do understand it perfectly. Nowadays I find it boring
>for the most part. I blame it on gaining an understanding of hockey. ;-)
>
>Graham


AHHH, the Canuckistanni rot has set in . . . . Next, you'll be
believing in universal health care. :)

Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

slenon
October 17th, 2003, 11:33 PM
>Uh, no. Now me? I 'really' hate baseball. It bothers me that it is
receiving so much news coverage right no
>...don't like football either....golf...phooey......and hoops, I hate the
hoops too....

To my mind, the best post of the day. Let all the professional athletes go
play with each other for no money and donate their salaries to teachers
instead.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

Jonathan Cook
October 17th, 2003, 11:59 PM
Ken Fortenberry > wrote in message >...

> And baseball is boring only to those who don't understand baseball.

Guilty as charged, and hopin' to stay that way ;-)

Jon.

asadi
October 18th, 2003, 12:33 AM
God. The one you trust your budding teenage daughter to at all hours works
for a pittance, and the one you wouldn't trust you ugly arthritic
grandmother to gets paid millions. Go figure.

john
"slenon" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> >Uh, no. Now me? I 'really' hate baseball. It bothers me that it is
> receiving so much news coverage right no
> >...don't like football either....golf...phooey......and hoops, I hate the
> hoops too....
>
> To my mind, the best post of the day. Let all the professional athletes
go
> play with each other for no money and donate their salaries to teachers
> instead.
>
> ----
> Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
> Drowning flies to Darkstar
> Save a cow, eat a PETA
>
> http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm
>
>
>

October 18th, 2003, 06:42 AM
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:30:49 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
> wrote:


>
>And baseball is boring only to those who don't understand baseball.


And I once did. Right up until the second player strike. The first
one, well, okay, they were doing stuff like pensions for the old
timers who never had a chance to have a million dollar contract as
well as taking care of themselves. It made decent PR. But since
then, phtoooie on the players, the owners, the whole greedy bunch of
them.

BTW, I've not noticed kids out anywhere doing a pickup game of
baseball in forever. Street hockey, street soccer, garage
basketball, but not pickup baseball. They're playing, but with mom
and dad taking them to practice and the games and with coaches and all
that crud. How are you going to get the spirit of baseball when
you've got a real diamond and people watching and coaches telling you
stuff? Not to mention uniforms.
--

rbc:vixen,Minnow Goddess,Willow Watcher,and all that sort of thing.
Often taunted by trout.
Only a fool would refuse to believe in luck. Only a damn fool would rely on it.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli

JR
October 18th, 2003, 12:07 PM
wrote:
>
> ...... Right up until the second player strike. The first
> one, well, okay, they were doing stuff like pensions for the old
> timers who never had a chance to have a million dollar contract as
> well as taking care of themselves. It made decent PR. But since
> then, phtoooie on the players, the owners, the whole greedy bunch of
> them.

I quit watching baseball on TV when all the teams put billboards behind
home plate, and without the regular contact with the game that TV
provided, my interest has slowly dissipated.

JR

JR
October 18th, 2003, 12:31 PM
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
>
> ......You cannot give a playoff team an extra out in
> the eighth inning, it's inexcusable and stupid.

Dumb, sure, but inexcusable? It's a game.

JR

slenon
October 18th, 2003, 03:41 PM
>God. The one you trust your budding teenage daughter to at all hours works
>for a pittance, and the one you wouldn't trust you ugly arthritic
>grandmother to gets paid millions. Go figure.
>john

They can't figure. That's why they all have agents.

Somewhere along the way we took a wrong turn and decided that peop[e who
play games professionally were heroes. We'd be better off if we took these
games out of our schools and put the money saved into books and teachers'
salaries. If the professional athletics franchises want training camps for
teenagers, let them pay for it.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

rw
October 18th, 2003, 03:45 PM
wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:30:49 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>>And baseball is boring only to those who don't understand baseball.
>
>
>
> And I once did. Right up until the second player strike. The first
> one, well, okay, they were doing stuff like pensions for the old
> timers who never had a chance to have a million dollar contract as
> well as taking care of themselves. It made decent PR. But since
> then, phtoooie on the players, the owners, the whole greedy bunch of
> them.

Pro baseball sucks -- especially the majors. Baseball as a GAME,
however, can be pretty cool. I like to watch Stanford play at the Sunken
Diamond. It's cheap, it's a great park, and Stanford always seems to
have a good team.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Russell D.
October 18th, 2003, 05:49 PM
riverman wrote:

<angst snipped>

> Argh. Unless you grew up in upper right hand corner, you have no idea of the
> reality of how this affects your life each year, to see the hated, fat cat,
> overpampered, flabby-armed new yorkers get their selfish, perverse little
> way, once agian, in one more way at the expense of everyone around them. I
> don't *care* who got the most runs....once again, the Bosox DESERVED to win.
> This is just....so.....wrong!!
>
> --riverman
> (don't TALK to me right now.)
>
>

I can't compare New Englanders' pain to other's pain, but other do feel
the pain. This from one of the Utah daily newspapers.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,515039629,00.html

Russell
Who will be watching a pathetic BYU football team and not the World
Series today.

Russell D.
October 18th, 2003, 05:54 PM
rw wrote:

<snipage>

> but the
> people who are really responsible for the corruption of professional
> sports are the fans who pay absurd ticket prices, and I think we might
> agree on that.
>

Too true. Unfortunatly, if you build it, they will come.

Russell
One of the sheep too often.

rw
October 18th, 2003, 05:58 PM
slenon wrote:
>>God. The one you trust your budding teenage daughter to at all hours works
>>for a pittance, and the one you wouldn't trust you ugly arthritic
>>grandmother to gets paid millions. Go figure.
>>john
>
>
> They can't figure. That's why they all have agents.
>
> Somewhere along the way we took a wrong turn and decided that peop[e who
> play games professionally were heroes. We'd be better off if we took these
> games out of our schools and put the money saved into books and teachers'
> salaries. If the professional athletics franchises want training camps for
> teenagers, let them pay for it.

We're talking about baseball, right?

Professional baseball does and always has paid for "training camps for
teenagers." It's called the minor leagues.

Unlike football and (to a lesser degree) basketball, professional
baseball doesn't primarily recruit from colleges. If a baseball player
doesn't get recruited out of high school, he's probably not going to
make it to The Show.

I think professional athletes are entitled to all the money they can
get, just like anyone else with a special skill. It irritates the hell
out of me when I see what someone like Shaq does with his money (huge
collection of expensive cars, hunting on game farms, etc.), but the
people who are really responsible for the corruption of professional
sports are the fans who pay absurd ticket prices, and I think we might
agree on that.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Russell D.
October 18th, 2003, 05:58 PM
Graham Knight wrote:

>
>
> Russell wrote:
>
>> Ken Fortenberry wrote:
>>
>>> And baseball is boring only to those who don't understand baseball.
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely true.
>
>
> I disagree. There was a period in my life that I really enjoyed
> baseball, and I do understand it perfectly.

Perfectly! Uh, oh never mind . . .

Nowadays I find it boring
> for the most part. I blame it on gaining an understanding of hockey. ;-)

Hockey! Soccor on speed and for the most part unwatchable.

Russell

Russell D.
October 18th, 2003, 05:59 PM
Jonathan Cook wrote:

> Ken Fortenberry > wrote in message >...
>
>
>>And baseball is boring only to those who don't understand baseball.
>
>
> Guilty as charged, and hopin' to stay that way ;-)
>

Yeah, and your better off, too.

Russell
Who wants to go fishing--but can't.

slenon
October 18th, 2003, 06:24 PM
rw:
>We're talking about baseball, right?

Not entirely

>Professional baseball does and always has paid for "training camps for
teenagers." It's called the minor leagues.

No argument there, the minor leagues exist and draw some fan support.

>Unlike football and (to a lesser degree) basketball, professional baseball
doesn't primarily recruit from colleges.

Agree again. Baseball makes no real effort to lie to fans and convince them
that the star athletes are all carrying serious academic loads and being
treated like other students on campus.

>but the people who are really responsible for the corruption of
professional
>sports are the fans who pay absurd ticket prices, and I think we might
>agree on that.

I agree pretty much with that statement. But I'm damned if I know how to
open the eyes of people willing to spend a week's net income to watch a
bunch of gladiators and consume overpriced food and beer.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

October 19th, 2003, 04:24 AM
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:30:49 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
> wrote:

>And baseball is boring only to those who don't understand baseball.

Well, in terms of being boring and incomprehensible, it compares well
with cricket.

Not with football. Well, NCAA football, anyway. Since my boys are
arguably the worst in the Big Eight...BTW, my condolences on the
orange peels being molested so badly by Bo Shembeckler's offspring.

;-)

Mike S. Medintz >
"Never give a sword to one who has not learned
to dance." -Miyamoto Musashi

Graham Knight
October 19th, 2003, 04:22 PM
Russell D. wrote:
>
>
> Hockey! Soccor on speed and for the most part unwatchable.
>

Hockey is unwatchable only to those who don't understand hockey. ;-) :-)

Graham


--

And as an afterthought, this must too be told,
Some people are taking pure bull****, and turning it into gold.
- Grandpa Green (Greendale, CA USA)

What's happening in Idledale? Not Much! http://www.idledale.com/

Herman Nijland
October 19th, 2003, 05:11 PM
Graham Knight wrote:
>
>
> Russell D. wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hockey! Soccor on speed and for the most part unwatchable.
>>
>
> Hockey is unwatchable only to those who don't understand hockey. ;-) :-)
>
> Graham
>
>

The same applies to soccer, me thinks.

--
Herman

Wolfgang
October 19th, 2003, 05:59 PM
"Herman Nijland" > wrote in message
...
> Graham Knight wrote:
> >
> >
> > Russell D. wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Hockey! Soccor on speed and for the most part unwatchable.
> >>
> >
> > Hockey is unwatchable only to those who don't understand hockey. ;-) :-)
> >
> > Graham
> >
> >
>
> The same applies to soccer, me thinks.

On the contrary, soccer, hockey, baseball, basketball, golf, football, auto
racing, and horse racing are unwatchable for anyone who DOES understand
them.

Wolfgang
women's volleyball, on the other hand.......

slenon
October 20th, 2003, 04:33 PM
Perhaps we could justify the out of sight compensation for professional
athletes if we reverted back to the actuality of the gladiatorial concept
and slaughtered the losing teams. That would also allow more would-be
athletes to fill the ranks of the various franchises and therefore cut
unemployment among that portion of our populace who pegged their hopes on
athletic scholarships and professional franchise contracts.



----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

JR
October 20th, 2003, 04:34 PM
Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> I was into baseball, a Dodger fan from 1956 on for
> about 30 years, but when it got to the point that I had to
> learn 10 - 15 new names in the box scores each year,
> I gradually lost connection to the "team."

Yeah, and the turn-over rate started to increase just at the time our
memories started to......

Graham Knight
October 20th, 2003, 05:25 PM
Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> The pace in a hockey game can be amazing: it's
> basketball on steroids. Too bad that it's also WWF
> on steroids.
>

A couple little fights a game does not constitute the WWF on steriods.
Either that or I have a warped sense of what the WWF is - which could
be, i never watch such drivel, i must not understand it enough. ;-)

The thing I like the most about hockey is that it is a true team sport.
If you are not a team player, you will suck, end of story.

Graham



--

And as an afterthought, this must too be told,
Some people are taking pure bull****, and turning it into gold.
- Grandpa Green (Greendale, CA USA)

What's happening in Idledale? Not Much! http://www.idledale.com/

Graham Knight
October 20th, 2003, 06:17 PM
Greg Pavlov wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:25:08 -0600, Graham Knight
> > wrote:
>
>
>>A couple little fights a game does not constitute the WWF on steriods.
>
>
>
> "Little", eh ? Didn't someone on the Sabres just break their
> arm being slammed into the boards with the puck nowhere
> nearby ?
>

You know what, you're right - stay away from hockey please. :-)


Graham

Conan the Librarian
October 21st, 2003, 02:14 PM
"slenon" > wrote in message >...

> [snippety doo dah]
>
> But I'm damned if I know how to
> open the eyes of people willing to spend a week's net income to watch a
> bunch of gladiators and consume overpriced food and beer.

And exactly why do you think you need to "open the eyes" of these
people?


Chuck Vance (Damned if I know how to open the eyes of people
willing to spend a week's net income on carbon fiber sticks and
PVC-coated string to which they attach feathers and hook, then stand
waist-deep in cold water waving the stick in an attempt to hook some
fish, only to let the fish go afterwards.)

slenon
October 21st, 2003, 04:22 PM
Conan the librarian:
> And exactly why do you think you need to "open >the eyes" of these
people?

I don't know that I do. However, tilting at this particular windmill is as
good as any other.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

Conan the Librarian
October 22nd, 2003, 01:46 PM
"slenon" > wrote in message >...

> Conan the librarian:
> > And exactly why do you think you need to "open >the eyes" of these
> people?
>
> I don't know that I do. However, tilting at this particular windmill is as
> good as any other.

Perhaps, but that statement of yours just reeks of condescension:

> But I'm damned if I know how to
> open the eyes of people willing to spend a week's net income to watch a
> bunch of gladiators and consume overpriced food and beer.

By substituting a few words here and there, you not only describe
all spectator sports, but gambling, eating at a restaurant, going on
vacation, going *fly-fishing*, etc., etc., etc.

Frankly, while we might find any of those diversions silly, as long
as the folks who engage in it are using discretionary cash, it's a bit
presumptuous (and ironic, given the nature of our own hobby) for us to
feel like we need to "enlighten" the poor, dumb masses.


Chuck Vance

slenon
October 22nd, 2003, 02:37 PM
> By substituting a few words here and there, you not only describe
>all spectator sports, but gambling, eating at a restaurant, going on
>vacation, going *fly-fishing*, etc., etc., etc.

> Frankly, while we might find any of those diversions silly, as long
>as the folks who engage in it are using discretionary cash, it's a bit
>presumptuous (and ironic, given the nature of our own hobby) for us to
>feel like we need to "enlighten" the poor, dumb masses.
> Chuck Vance

If you substitute words here and there, you alter the meaning and intent of
my original statement.

IMNSHO, spectator athletics have assumed far too large a role in our
society. We collectively lionize the athletes, pay them exhorbitant
salaries, forgive their illegal behaviors because of their celebrity status,
and brawl and riot in the streets over the outcome of games as if they
really mattered. Cities allow professional franchises to dictate taxation
for the purposes of building new stadia so that the franchise holders need
not spend their own money to practice their profession.

I'm sure you will recognize that I am not a proponent or fan of any
spectator game. Nor do I gamble at casinos, bet on the outcome of amateur
or professional games.

There are sports that I enjoy. Mostly they are sports that one can engage
in alone or with a few friends. What competition I've engaged in over the
years has been largely against my previous marks, better casting distance,
longer backpacking trip, harder climbing lead, better outcome from a hunting
trip, better score on the target range. And while all of these may allow
some spectator coverage, they've largely not become the marketing darlings
that professional athletics have. I hope it remains so.

As to enlightenment of the masses, it amazes me to see people spend hard
earned dollars to watch games being played by people with limited or no
loyalty to the community and fans that pay their exhorbiant salaries. If we
want gladiators to take our minds off the economy or our other troubles,
then at least make the gladiators pay the price of their fame and glory with
more than sweat.

I do dine out from time to time but not as often or as expensively as most.
I find that I can serve up a dinner of equal quality as I would get at most
restaurants. I'd rather put what little discretionary cash I have into
good ingredients for meals, good materials for flies, and good equipment for
my personal sporting pleasure. I don't need the pseudo-loyalty to a team of
gladiators and don't enjoy the mob scene in stadia. I managed to graduate
university without ever attending a collegiate game.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

Ken Fortenberry
October 22nd, 2003, 05:55 PM
slenon wrote:
> <Long, indignant, sanctimonious, self-important diatribe snipped.>
> I managed to graduate
> university without ever attending a collegiate game.

Did you ever live on campus ? I kinda doubt it, you strike me as the
mail order type. What so-called "university" do you call alma mater
or was it merely a PO box ?

--
Ken Fortenberry

JR
October 22nd, 2003, 06:13 PM
slenon wrote:

> .....
> Perhaps we could justify the out of sight compensation for professional
> athletes if we reverted back to the actuality of the gladiatorial concept
> and slaughtered the losing teams.
> .....

Hmmm now, would that make Cubs and Red Sox fans feel better or worse at
the end of every year......?

JR

JR
October 22nd, 2003, 06:20 PM
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
>
> slenon wrote:
> > <Long, indignant, sanctimonious, self-important diatribe snipped.>
> > I managed to graduate
> > university without ever attending a collegiate game.
>
> Did you ever live on campus ? I kinda doubt it, you strike me as the
> mail order type. What so-called "university" do you call alma mater
> or was it merely a PO box ?

I went to W&M as an undergraduate (attended lots of football games), and
did grad work at UMd (one game) and UF (zero games). It's somewhere
between the W&M model and the UMd model that college football loses what
college athletics "should be about." It's somewhere between the UMd
model and the UF model that it loses (after stomping on it a bit) what
civilization should be about. On the positive side, though, having the
school attached as an appendage gives the FL legislature a convenient
excuse for subsidizing the team. ;)

JR

riverman
October 22nd, 2003, 06:28 PM
"JR" > wrote in message
...
> slenon wrote:
>
> > .....
> > Perhaps we could justify the out of sight compensation for professional
> > athletes if we reverted back to the actuality of the gladiatorial
concept
> > and slaughtered the losing teams.
> > .....
>
> Hmmm now, would that make Cubs and Red Sox fans feel better or worse at
> the end of every year......?
>

Well, they'd feel good until they made the playoffs. Then one of them would
feel bad just once...

--riverman

Wolfgang
October 22nd, 2003, 06:28 PM
"JR" > wrote in message
...

> ....having the
> school attached as an appendage gives the FL legislature a
convenient
> excuse for subsidizing the team. ;)

It is having things like state legislatures as appendages that give
schools like UF cache.

Wolfgang
um......you wouldn't hit a guy with glasses would you, uncle wally?
:(

Ken Fortenberry
October 22nd, 2003, 06:35 PM
JR wrote:
>
> I went to W&M as an undergraduate (attended lots of football games), and
> did grad work at UMd (one game) and UF (zero games). It's somewhere
> between the W&M model and the UMd model that college football loses what
> college athletics "should be about."

Oh, you'd love this year's version of the Illini. They're somewhere
between William & Mary and The Billy Bob School of Auto Repair. :-(

--
Ken Fortenberry- and did I mention that W&M alums are elitists ;-)

JR
October 22nd, 2003, 06:47 PM
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
>
> Oh, you'd love this year's version of the Illini. They're somewhere
> between William & Mary and The Billy Bob School of Auto Repair. :-(
> --
> Ken Fortenberry- and did I mention that W&M alums are elitists ;-)

Sad, but funny and true. :(

slenon
October 22nd, 2003, 09:28 PM
>Did you ever live on campus ? I kinda doubt it, you strike me as the
>mail order type. What so-called "university" do you call alma mater
>or was it merely a PO box ?
>Ken Fortenberry

Uof MOO C, Kenny. Your intuition failed you once again.

Yes, I lived on and off campus there.

If you try very hard you just might comprehend that some of us are not
interested in watching athletes play games in stadia that raise the cost of
student fees.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

slenon
October 22nd, 2003, 09:31 PM
>Hmmm now, would that make Cubs and Red Sox >fans feel better or worse at
the end of every >year......?
>JR

Hard to say. Perhaps we should begin the process in Chicago and see how it
affects the fan base.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

October 22nd, 2003, 10:49 PM
In article >,
says...
> >Did you ever live on campus ? I kinda doubt it, you strike me as the
> >mail order type. What so-called "university" do you call alma mater
> >or was it merely a PO box ?
> >Ken Fortenberry
>
> Uof MOO C, Kenny. Your intuition failed you once again.
>
> Yes, I lived on and off campus there.
>
> If you try very hard you just might comprehend that some of us are not
> interested in watching athletes play games in stadia that raise the cost of
> student fees.

But, but, but, it's so very important that University sports exist,
what else would elitist athlete wannabes have to crow about?
- Ken

Conan the Librarian
October 23rd, 2003, 01:09 AM
"slenon" > wrote in message >...

> If you substitute words here and there, you alter the meaning and intent of
> my original statement.

Oh ... OK ... then let's just decide what you were trying to say
with your original statement (which is what I did in the first place,
but nevermind that):

> But I'm damned if I know how to
> open the eyes of people willing to spend a week's net income to watch a
> bunch of gladiators and consume overpriced food and beer.

I dunno ... when I read that I get the feeling that stev considers
himself the arbiter of what is considered acceptable regarding how
folks spend their spare time and/or money. So when you are in charge,
what will "the masses" be allowed to indulge in?

Oh wait, here's a couple of hints:

> IMNSHO, spectator athletics have assumed far too large a role in our
> society.
>
> [snip]
>
> I'm sure you will recognize that I am not a proponent or fan of any
> spectator game. Nor do I gamble at casinos, bet on the outcome of amateur
> or professional games.
>
> [munch]
>
> As to enlightenment of the masses, it amazes me to see people spend hard
> earned dollars to watch games being played by people with limited or no
> loyalty to the community and fans that pay their exhorbiant salaries.
>
> [chomp]
>
> I do dine out from time to time but not as often or as expensively as most.
> I find that I can serve up a dinner of equal quality as I would get at most
> restaurants. I'd rather put what little discretionary cash I have into
> good ingredients for meals, good materials for flies, and good equipment for
> my personal sporting pleasure. I don't need the pseudo-loyalty to a team of
> gladiators and don't enjoy the mob scene in stadia. I managed to graduate
> university without ever attending a collegiate game.

I'm sure you must be very proud. You know, I was wrong about you
when I wrote that you appeared to be condescending. Nope, you are
also self-aggrandizing, sanctimonious, pretentious and
holier-than-thou.

I managed to graduate college and I still attended some games. Not
because I enjoyed a mob scene, or had a loyalty to my team (hell, I
graduated from Vanderbilt), but because that was how I chose to spend
some of my afternoons or evenings. Spectator sports can be fun, and
you don't have to be some sort of idiot who needs "enlightenment" if
you enjoy them.

I can cook like a m*th*rf*ck*r (ask SWMBO), but I still enjoy a
dinner out. I sometimes like to gamble, but don't spend any more than
I'm prepared to lose. I spend money on woodworking tools and
flyfishing gear, because those are active hobbies that I like to
pursue.

And guess what? That doesn't make me any better or worse than
someone who spends their discretionary cash on going to wrestling
matches.

BTW, what do you consider a Dead concert to be? Is that a mob
scene, or something else?


Chuck Vance

slenon
October 23rd, 2003, 02:17 AM
"
>But, but, but, it's so very important that University >sports exist, what
else would elitist athlete >wannabes have to crow about?
> - Ken

I'm lack any first hand information about elitist athlete wannabees. I'll
be happy to ask some, however.

--

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

Wolfgang
October 23rd, 2003, 02:28 AM
"Conan the Librarian" > wrote in message
om...

> I'm sure you must be very proud. You know, I was wrong about you
> when I wrote that you appeared to be condescending. Nope, you are
> also self-aggrandizing, sanctimonious, pretentious and
> holier-than-thou.
>
> I managed to graduate college and I still attended some games. Not
> because I enjoyed a mob scene, or had a loyalty to my team (hell, I
> graduated from Vanderbilt), but because that was how I chose to spend
> some of my afternoons or evenings. Spectator sports can be fun, and
> you don't have to be some sort of idiot who needs "enlightenment" if
> you enjoy them.
>
> I can cook like a m*th*rf*ck*r (ask SWMBO), but I still enjoy a
> dinner out. I sometimes like to gamble, but don't spend any more than
> I'm prepared to lose. I spend money on woodworking tools and
> flyfishing gear, because those are active hobbies that I like to
> pursue.
>
> And guess what? That doesn't make me any better or worse than
> someone who spends their discretionary cash on going to wrestling
> matches.
>
> BTW, what do you consider a Dead concert to be? Is that a mob
> scene, or something else?
>
>
> Chuck Vance

Hee, hee, hee.

Wanna know what funner than ripping into a sanctimonious prick with
delusions of adequacy? Huh? Ya wanna know? It's knowing that he ain't
gonna learn a goddamned thing from it......and you get to do it all over
again......and again......and again......

Enjoy!

Wolfgang
hee, hee, hee. :)

slenon
October 23rd, 2003, 02:39 AM
Chuck Vance:
> I dunno ... when I read that I get the feeling that stev considers
>himself the arbiter of what is considered acceptable regarding how
>folks spend their spare time and/or money. So when you are in charge,
>what will "the masses" be allowed to indulge in?

Actually, Chuck, I have very little concern about how most people spend
their money. I have a lot of concerns about how people are compensated for
the work they do vs games others play. Since I'm unlikely to be appointed
or elected to any position where I would be able to change that, I don't see
any need to go into conjecture.

> I managed to graduate college and I still attended some games. Not
>because I enjoyed a mob scene, or had a loyalty to my team (hell, I
>graduated from Vanderbilt), but because that was how I chose to spend
>some of my afternoons or evenings. Spectator sports can be fun, and
>you don't have to be some sort of idiot who needs "enlightenment" if you
enjoy them.

Big if. I don't, never have, never will. I'd rather participate than watch
if it is something I enjoy. And I have no desire to help pay for any
franchise's arena or playing field through involuntary taxation. The "fun"
in that escapes me. We'll discuss "enlightenment of the masses" after I
find a way to have you see the Autoway adds that currently air in the Tampa
Bay region.

> I can cook like a m*th*rf*ck*r (ask SWMBO), but I still enjoy a
>dinner out. I sometimes like to gamble, but don't spend any more than
>I'm prepared to lose. I spend money on woodworking tools and
>flyfishing gear, because those are active hobbies that I like to pursue.

Good! Then we can likely sit down over a very good meal when if we meet. I
also enjoy dining out but reality is what it is. Whether or not you gamble
is entirely up to you, as is the money you choose to spend on hobbies.

> And guess what? That doesn't make me any better or worse than
>someone who spends their discretionary cash on going to wrestling matches.

OK.

> BTW, what do you consider a Dead concert to be? Is that a mob scene, or
something else?

Decidedly a mob scene, particularly in the later years. And I hated that
aspect of it. Took a lot of effort to enter those big venues.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

slenon
October 23rd, 2003, 02:49 AM
>Wolfgang
>hee, hee, hee. :)

I'll be happy to mail you a new delete key.

I'll even throw in the recipe for napalm that you keep asking about. Touchy
stuff, though. Keep it out of the kitchen.



----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

Wolfgang
October 23rd, 2003, 03:05 AM
"slenon" > wrote in message
. ..
> >Wolfgang
> >hee, hee, hee. :)
>
> I'll be happy to mail you a new delete key.
>
> I'll even throw in the recipe for napalm that you keep asking about.
Touchy
> stuff, though. Keep it out of the kitchen.

Hee, hee, hee.

Wanna know what's funner than ripping into a sanctimonious prick with
delusions of adequacy again.....and again....and again....and again? Huh?
Ya wanna know? It's knowing for an absolute certainty that each and every
time he WILL give in to his grandiose dreams of wit and literacy and thus
once again expose himself as a hapless fool.

Hee, hee, hee.

Wolfgang
watch. :)

October 23rd, 2003, 05:45 AM
In article >,
says...
> "
> >But, but, but, it's so very important that University >sports exist, what
> else would elitist athlete >wannabes have to crow about?
> > - Ken
>
> I'm lack any first hand information about elitist athlete wannabees. I'll
> be happy to ask some, however.

In case you're confused, I was agreeing with you.
- Ken

Conan the Librarian
October 23rd, 2003, 01:50 PM
"slenon" > wrote in message >...

> Actually, Chuck, I have very little concern about how most people spend
> their money.

Ah, good ... so you've changed your position.

> >Spectator sports can be fun, and
> >you don't have to be some sort of idiot who needs "enlightenment" if you
> >enjoy them.
>
> Big if. I don't, never have, never will.

I think we all know that. My point was that before you changed
your position, you said that folks who enjoyed the "gladiator sports"
needed to have their eyes opened to the mistake of their ways.

> I'd rather participate than watch
> if it is something I enjoy. And I have no desire to help pay for any
> franchise's arena or playing field through involuntary taxation.

Nor do I have any desire to help pay for Dubya to prove his manhood
in Iraq, but that's a whole different kettle of worms.

> The "fun"
> in that escapes me. We'll discuss "enlightenment of the masses" after I
> find a way to have you see the Autoway adds that currently air in the Tampa
> Bay region.

Let's see ... a quick Google search shows that they are/were using
Dan Marino in ads to help sell their cars. Is that what you're
referring to?

> > I can cook like a m*th*rf*ck*r (ask SWMBO), but I still enjoy a
> >dinner out. I sometimes like to gamble, but don't spend any more than
> >I'm prepared to lose. I spend money on woodworking tools and
> >flyfishing gear, because those are active hobbies that I like to pursue.
>
> Good! Then we can likely sit down over a very good meal when if we meet. I
> also enjoy dining out but reality is what it is. Whether or not you gamble
> is entirely up to you, as is the money you choose to spend on hobbies.

How very generous of you.

> > BTW, what do you consider a Dead concert to be? Is that a mob scene, or
> something else?
>
> Decidedly a mob scene, particularly in the later years. And I hated that
> aspect of it. Took a lot of effort to enter those big venues.

Actually, that's something we agree on. I saw them (for free) in
October 1972 on the lawn at Vanderbilt, and that was possibly the
greatest event/concert I've ever been a part of. They played for 4+
hours, and it was the most unlikely mix of people (from bikers to
family groups) that I've ever seen in one place. But it felt like a
gathering of extended family (no doubt the chemical enhancement had
some effect on that). The Dead were at the top of their game (if
you'll pardon the sports metaphor), and seemed like they genuinely
didn't want to stop playing.

Contrast that with seeing them at Manor Downs outside of Austin in
the early 80's. It was a bit of a madhouse (mob scene, if you will),
with confrontations between the police and crowds, etc. They seemed
to be going through the motions, and the set was a fairly bland (and
short) mix of their "greatest hits". Right then and there I promised
myself I would no longer make an attempt to see any of their shows.

But, I digress.


Chuck Vance

slenon
October 23rd, 2003, 04:09 PM
>In case you're confused, I was agreeing with you.
> - Ken

I'm sometimes confused, but they tell me that side effect will vanish with
time.

Glad that there are at least two of us of a similar mind. Thanks for
calling in.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

Ken Fortenberry
October 23rd, 2003, 04:24 PM
slenon wrote:
>
> Glad that there are at least two of us of a similar mind. ...

While you and ET1 share a similar snotty, superior, misanthropic
attitude, the Evil Ken Twin is not a sanctimonious prick on a
pompous, self-important crusade to "open the eyes" of society.

--
Ken Fortenberry - ET2

slenon
October 23rd, 2003, 04:45 PM
Chuck Vance:
> I think we all know that. My point was that before you changed
>your position, you said that folks who enjoyed the "gladiator sports"
>needed to have their eyes opened to the mistake of their ways.


How to approach this without using a shotgun?
My position remains the uncommon and unpopular one I first stated. I think
far too much emphasis is given to spectator games and that the average fan
is charged far too much for what ever pleasure they derive from attending
them. To me, the position in today's society held by these games strongly
suggests the bread and circus approach to managing the mob practiced by the
Roman Emperors. Except, our mobs, or crowds, pay for the games rather than
attend free games.

The games are gladiatorial combats scaled back to near bloodless levels.
There is little to no local loyalty among the players for the cities that
host the franchises. Again, suggestive of the Roman era. I won't even
touch upon the special privileges afforded celebrity athletes who repeatedly
break laws except to mention that we are all aware of such patterns.

The practice of threatening to move the franchise in order to get cities,
counties, and even states, to affect taxation to build new venues is
despicable. Tampa is the nearest case in point to my home. The franchise
owners made the big threat and the county voted in a tax to pay for a new
stadium. Had they imposed this tax upon only the fans, those voluntarily
attending the games, that would have been a different matter. As a result,
if I purchase food or drink, lodging, or transportation, anywhere in
Hillsborough County, I am taxed to pay for a stadium I did not vote to
build.

Did the citizens who attend these games vote for this willingly? Was it
shoved down their throats in lieu of losing "their team?" If the team was
that ready to move, was it ever "theirs?" Is voting to tax yourself and
others so that millionaire franchise owners can escape the cost of doing
business and shift it to those less able to afford it the act of someone
with politically opened eyes?

> Nor do I have any desire to help pay for Dubya to prove his manhood in
Iraq, but that's a whole different kettle of worms.

I didn't vote for him. We probably have some similar positions here and
some divergent ones.

> Let's see ... a quick Google search shows that they are/were using
>Dan Marino in ads to help sell their cars. Is that what you're
>referring to?

No. They are currently airing some horridly obnoxious clips of local fans,
who certainly appear to be seriously impaired, dancing and shouting to the
theme from "ghostbusters." Very, very annoying and the volume is boosted
tremendously. I can usually ignore commercials or read through them. This
one sends me scrambling for the mute button.

> How very generous of you.

I have moments of generosity. Please don't let it get around, though.

> Actually, that's something we agree on. I saw them (for free) in
>October 1972 on the lawn at Vanderbilt, and that was possibly the
>greatest event/concert I've ever been a part of.

Late 72 was a good period. I'm partial to 71-77. Your description of the
crowd scene is much like everyone else's, mine included. I never saw any
fights in the earlier days, the mob was docile. Yet the threat was often
there when the Hell's Angels were in attendance. Always an odd microcosm
that never really existed, in my experience, any place except at shows.

My first show was in Aug, '68. I saw them at the Avalon and then shipped
overseas the next day. My last was the stadium show in Tampa, 95. ( the old
stadium, btw, now torn down to make way for the one discussed above) It
was, for the end of tour in spring of '95, surprisingly well played and
jazzy. We got good value for the admission price. But the crowd pressure
was oppressive, the feel of family you recall was not really there. There
were too many people and too many camps. The lot scene outside was sad. It
was hard to hear the tour rats spare-changing over the hiss of nitrous tanks
filling balloons. I thought then that it was likely my last show. "Summer
time done come and gone, my oh my!"


--

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

October 23rd, 2003, 04:51 PM
In article >,
says...
> slenon wrote:
> >
> > Glad that there are at least two of us of a similar mind. ...
>
> While you and ET1 share a similar snotty, superior, misanthropic
> attitude, the Evil Ken Twin is not a sanctimonious prick on a
> pompous, self-important crusade to "open the eyes" of society.

I thought that snotty, superior, etc....was the very basis of
being a true elitist.....which I thought was a good thing....DAMN
it's getting hard to keep these things straight.

Yeah, society as a whole is a lost cause. I just hope, obviously
against all hope, that the intellectual elite [whether U of I
alums qualify is left as an exercise for the student] will someday
recognize that higher education spending big bucks to be training
camps for professional sports is stupid.

That and the nearly jingoistic pride that some people show towards
activities that they have nothing to do with is just a little
sickening.
- Ken

Wolfgang
October 23rd, 2003, 05:00 PM
"slenon" > wrote in message
...

> ...My position remains the uncommon and unpopular one I first
stated.

One hardly knows where to begin to speculate on what kind of warped
vision of the real world inspires the delusional notion that any view
you have expressed on this or any other matter is uncommon or
unpopular, or how you would recognize any such distinction if it
jumped up and bit you on your smug and supremely pedestrian ass.

Wolfgang
who probably shouldn't be surprised at a manifest inability to
distinguish between one's position and one's persona.

Ken Fortenberry
October 23rd, 2003, 05:26 PM
wrote:
> ...
> Yeah, society as a whole is a lost cause. I just hope, obviously
> against all hope, that the intellectual elite [whether U of I
> alums qualify is left as an exercise for the student] will someday
> recognize that higher education spending big bucks to be training
> camps for professional sports is stupid.

Fact is, both sports that could reasonably qualify as professional
"minor leagues", mens football and basketball, not only do not cost
"higher education" big bucks, they actually generate funds for the
athletic department..

> That and the nearly jingoistic pride that some people show towards
> activities that they have nothing to do with is just a little
> sickening.

Aren't you the southsider who took time out of his busy day to taunt
Cubs fans last week ? Why bother ?

--
Ken Fortenberry

October 23rd, 2003, 06:37 PM
In article >,
says...
> wrote:
> > That and the nearly jingoistic pride that some people show towards
> > activities that they have nothing to do with is just a little
> > sickening.
>
> Aren't you the southsider who took time out of his busy day to taunt
> Cubs fans last week ? Why bother ?

Why bother with anything? I'm obviously not that busy or I wouldn't
be goofing around on ROFF when I should be working. :-)

It seems odd to bring up taunting Cub fans whilst trying to refute
the "pride that some people show towards activities that they have
nothing to do with." Seems like a damn good example of it in my
book.

To be honest, none of this really bothers me it's just fun to
poke holes at the silly things that the elitists believe in.
Especially those elitists who are known to be "snotty, superior,
misanthropic" about their own issues and don't recognize their
own hypocracy when calling others' attitudes in question. :-)
- Ken

slenon
October 23rd, 2003, 10:58 PM
>While you and ET1 share a similar snotty, superior, misanthropic
>attitude, the Evil Ken Twin is not a sanctimonious prick on a
>pompous, self-important crusade to "open the eyes" of society.
>Ken Fortenberry - ET2

I'd have to say that having seen your repeated ranting posts about the evils
of Zionism you're a lot more closely mirror-twinned to me than he.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

slenon
October 23rd, 2003, 11:03 PM
>Fact is, both sports that could reasonably qualify as professional
>"minor leagues", mens football and basketball, not only do not cost
>"higher education" big bucks, they actually generate funds for the
>athletic department..

Then why bother calling such professionals students? Call them what they
are. Let the games support the games programs and withdraw all other
funding. A true university can survive quite well with no athletic
department.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

slenon
October 23rd, 2003, 11:24 PM
>One hardly knows where to begin to speculate on what kind of warped
>vision of the real world inspires the delusional notion that any view
>you have expressed on this or any other matter is uncommon or unpopular

Warped vision? Why yours, of course, sir. After all, if such an august
person as your self, in consideration for arbiter, fails to agree with
something I have expressed in a free and open forum, then I must be in
error. Oh, my! I must have missed the column in today's papers confirming
your appointment. I'll have my staff send a gift around immediately.


> or how you would recognize any such distinction if it
>jumped up and bit you on your smug and supremely pedestrian ass.
>Wolfgang

I don't believe distinctions are venomous. But if such should occur I'll
think of you when I need someone to perform oral venom extraction.

"Smug and supremely pedestrian ass?" How kind of you to say so. But I must
admit to use of a vehicle yesterday to travel for fishing purposes and today
to transport groceries.

>who probably shouldn't be surprised at a manifest inability to
>distinguish between one's position and one's persona.

No you shouldn't be. You fit the role rather nicely, too.


----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69

Ken Fortenberry
October 24th, 2003, 12:27 AM
slenon wrote:
>
> ... A true university can survive quite well with no athletic
> department.

You are confusing a University with a trade school and incidentally
revealing a deficiency in your own education.

Big time intercollegiate athletics has become an industry apart
from the mission of the University, the tail wagging the dog, so
to speak, but athletics, both individual and intercollegiate, is
an important part of a well-rounded education.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Wolfgang
October 24th, 2003, 12:53 AM
"slenon" > wrote in message
m...
> >One hardly knows where to begin to speculate on what kind of warped
> >vision of the real world inspires the delusional notion that any view
> >you have expressed on this or any other matter is uncommon or unpopular
>
> Warped vision? Why yours, of course, sir. After all, if such an august
> person as your self, in consideration for arbiter, fails to agree with
> something I have expressed in a free and open forum, then I must be in
> error. Oh, my! I must have missed the column in today's papers
confirming
> your appointment. I'll have my staff send a gift around immediately.
>
>
> > or how you would recognize any such distinction if it
> >jumped up and bit you on your smug and supremely pedestrian ass.
> >Wolfgang
>
> I don't believe distinctions are venomous. But if such should occur I'll
> think of you when I need someone to perform oral venom extraction.
>
> "Smug and supremely pedestrian ass?" How kind of you to say so. But I
must
> admit to use of a vehicle yesterday to travel for fishing purposes and
today
> to transport groceries.
>
> >who probably shouldn't be surprised at a manifest inability to
> >distinguish between one's position and one's persona.
>
> No you shouldn't be. You fit the role rather nicely, too.
>
>
> ----
> Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69

See what I mean?

Wolfgang
hee, hee, hee. :)

David Snedeker
October 24th, 2003, 04:17 AM
slenon wrote in message ...
>----
>Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
>Drowning flies to Darkstar


Curious. . . the Darkstar you refer to... is that Darkstar as in Alan Furst,
the writer?

Dave

Conan the Librarian
October 24th, 2003, 01:47 PM
"slenon" > wrote in message >...

> My position remains the uncommon and unpopular one I first stated.
>
> [snip of same stuff about too much emphasis on spectator sports, etc.

Your sentence above nicely displays the holier-than-thou attitude
that first prompted me to enter this discussion. I don't know where
you got the idea that the concept that there is too much emphasis on
sports is a unique or unpopular one. I daresay that most people who
bother to think about it would come to the same conclusion.

The difference between some of us and yourself is that while we
might agree with the basic premise, we don't put ourselves in the
self-important position of presuming to know what's best for them and
feel the need to "enlighten" them.

They are free to spend their dollars and time in any way that they
see fit, as silly or distasteful as it may seem to you or me.

> The practice of threatening to move the franchise in order to get cities,
> counties, and even states, to affect taxation to build new venues is
> despicable. Tampa is the nearest case in point to my home. The franchise
> owners made the big threat and the county voted in a tax to pay for a new
> stadium. Had they imposed this tax upon only the fans, those voluntarily
> attending the games, that would have been a different matter. As a result,
> if I purchase food or drink, lodging, or transportation, anywhere in
> Hillsborough County, I am taxed to pay for a stadium I did not vote to
> build.
>
> Did the citizens who attend these games vote for this willingly? Was it
> shoved down their throats in lieu of losing "their team?" If the team was
> that ready to move, was it ever "theirs?" Is voting to tax yourself and
> others so that millionaire franchise owners can escape the cost of doing
> business and shift it to those less able to afford it the act of someone
> with politically opened eyes?

And this of course is a wholly different matter than simply a case
of too much emphasis on spectator sports. This is a simple matter of
economics. Software companies, retail establishments, etc., etc.,
etc. are all the recipients of extra taxation or tax breaks. We are
all taxed for services we don't use.

But to think this would end if we could only "open the eyes" of
those poor dumb sports fans is naive and condescending.

> > Let's see ... a quick Google search shows that they are/were using
> >Dan Marino in ads to help sell their cars. Is that what you're
> >referring to?
>
> No. They are currently airing some horridly obnoxious clips of local fans,
> who certainly appear to be seriously impaired, dancing and shouting to the
> theme from "ghostbusters." Very, very annoying and the volume is boosted
> tremendously. I can usually ignore commercials or read through them. This
> one sends me scrambling for the mute button.

We have quite a few annoying commercials in these parts, and
interestingly enough, they are also for auto dealers. So we can agree
then that auto dealers have obnoxious ads.

> [Dead concerts = mob scene?]
>
> My first show was in Aug, '68. I saw them at the Avalon and then shipped
> overseas the next day. My last was the stadium show in Tampa, 95. ( the old
> stadium, btw, now torn down to make way for the one discussed above) It
> was, for the end of tour in spring of '95, surprisingly well played and
> jazzy.

Was that when Branford Marsalis or Ornette Coleman joined them for
a few shows? I know I've got a tape somewhere with Ornette from
around that period, and it's pretty fun to hear them interacting.

> We got good value for the admission price. But the crowd pressure
> was oppressive, the feel of family you recall was not really there. There
> were too many people and too many camps. The lot scene outside was sad. It
> was hard to hear the tour rats spare-changing over the hiss of nitrous tanks
> filling balloons.

In another lifetime I lived in a neighborhood that was divided
roughly half and half between students and working people. I got to
know some of the kids pretty well, and I remember my neighbor coming
back from his first Dead show and being ready to go on the road with
them.

His reason? The gas.

I made him a couple of compilation tapes so he could actually
listen to a bit of the music before he hit the road with the band.


Chuck Vance

slenon
October 24th, 2003, 03:26 PM
--
Ken Fortenberry:
>You are confusing a University with a trade school and incidentally
>revealing a deficiency in your own education.

NO, my diploma really says "University." Though I'm sure I can guess the
answer, what deficiency would that be? I'm just dying to know what I missed
all those years ago.


>Big time intercollegiate athletics has become an industry apart
>from the mission of the University, the tail wagging the dog, so
>to speak, but athletics, both individual and intercollegiate, is
?an important part of a well-rounded education.

Surprisingly, we partially agree here. It is an industry and should be
separated from academic programs. But your well rounded education model
stems from the British ideal student-athlete. Note that the word student
appears first. Unfortunately, in our system, that is too seldom the case.


----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

slenon
October 24th, 2003, 03:30 PM
>Curious. . . the Darkstar you refer to... is that Darkstar as in Alan
Furst, the writer?
>Dave

No, Dave. Darkstar in this context refers to an improvisational musical
platform used by the Grateful Dead. Some of them were short and trash, some
long and trash. But some of them were moments to recall, performances of a
rare nature exploring time signatures, harmonics, chord structures, and in
the best of cases, when transitioned into a figure known as "Mind Left Body
Jam," explorations of music descending to chaos and back to quiet beauty.



----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

slenon
October 24th, 2003, 03:32 PM
>See what I mean?
>Wolfgang

Well, I see that if you, Wolfgang, apply yourself just a bit more, you can
achieve true schmuck status.

Let me know when you're through ****ing in the sandbox.

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

Tim J.
October 24th, 2003, 03:42 PM
"slenon" wrote...
> >See what I mean?
> >Wolfgang
>
> Well, I see that if you, Wolfgang, apply yourself just a bit more, you can
> achieve true schmuck status.
>
> Let me know when you're through ****ing in the sandbox.

Stev, you're really making this too easy for him.
--
TL,
Tim
Grandma always said, "An unchallenged Wolfgang is an unhappy Wolfgang."
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Wolfgang
October 24th, 2003, 04:03 PM
"Tim J." > wrote in message
...
>
> "slenon" wrote...
> > >See what I mean?
> > >Wolfgang
> >
> > Well, I see that if you, Wolfgang, apply yourself just a bit more,
you can
> > achieve true schmuck status.
> >
> > Let me know when you're through ****ing in the sandbox.
>
> Stev, you're really making this too easy for him.
> --
> TL,
> Tim
> Grandma always said, "An unchallenged Wolfgang is an unhappy
Wolfgang."

One could wait for a more resonant cranium upon which to beat a
sonorous tattoo, but then one would be left wondering what to do in
the long dreary intervals and, as we all know, idle hands are the tool
of the Devil......who knows what sort of mischief one might fall prey
to while waiting for better opportunities to do good works.

Wolfgang
who, as can be seen from the above, has already been reduced by ennui
to the rather embarrassing expedient of killing time by making a
pastiche of haphazardly tossed metaphors. :(

slenon
October 24th, 2003, 04:25 PM
Chuck Vance:
>I don't know where you got the idea that the concept that there is too much
emphasis on
>sports is a unique or unpopular one.

Perhaps from the fact that every news cast and every news paper dedicates a
large proportion of its space to such events. Perhaps from the billions of
dollars spent in public schools to fund such programs when the same schools
can't provide books for all students.

> The difference between some of us and yourself is that while we
>might agree with the basic premise, we don't put ourselves in the
>self-important position of presuming to know what's best for them and
>feel the need to "enlighten" them.

Well, I've yet to take out any full page adds in local papers, stand outside
athletic events with signs, or spend any time calling into talk radio. Yes,
I'm argumentative and opinionated. So are many of the participants here. I
also feel quite strongly about social, political, and economic reforms that
are divisive matters. When one says nothing about one's beliefs lest others
be offended, how free is our society? If everyone merely accepts the status
quo, then now is any change to be affected? Enlightenment is a touchy term.
Here if Florida, I'd be happy if they just managed to teach more of the
students to read at grade level.

> They are free to spend their dollars and time in any way that they see
fit, as silly or distasteful as it may seem to you or me.

And short of speaking against some of these manners, I've no intention of
trying to prevent them. Notice that I said earlier that I don't gamble, not
that gambling should be illegal or even that gambling was wrong. I've never
been able to afford to gamble and the noise in the casinos is unpleasant to
me.

>This is a simple matter of economics. Software companies, retail
establishments, etc., etc.,
>etc. are all the recipients of extra taxation or tax breaks. We are all
taxed for services we don't use.

Indeed we are. And when I'm afforded the opportunity to vote against such
things I do. When I'm not allowed to vote, I do write to my elected
representatives.

> But to think this would end if we could only "open the eyes" of those
poor dumb sports fans is naive and condescending.

I don't expect it ever to happen. I remain amazed at the loyalty of people
to teams of players with so little reverse loyalty as to charge for
autographs.

>So we can agree then that auto dealers have obnoxious ads.

No disagreement there.

> Was that when Branford Marsalis or Ornette Coleman joined them for
>a few shows? I know I've got a tape somewhere with Ornette from
>around that period, and it's pretty fun to hear them interacting.

No guests at that show. Pity, because it would have been a good show for
either of them to sit in. I've got some shows with both of them playing.
They are delightful.

> His reason? The gas.

Damn! Sorry to hear that. But you gave him some other things to think
about with the tapes. My list has some decent material if you're
interested.









--

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

slenon
October 24th, 2003, 04:51 PM
Wolfgang:
>by making a pastiche of haphazardly tossed >metaphors. :(

if he's reduced to making a pastiche, perhaps he should look for a recipe
for a rat..ta..tat..ta. toulie.




--

----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

Ken Fortenberry
October 24th, 2003, 05:26 PM
slenon wrote:

The convention for separating the .sig from the body of a post is
dash, dash, space, return. Try it, you'll like it. A lot of newsreaders,
mine included, auotmagically ignore everything under the dash, dash,
space, return, which is why I'm replying to an empty post.

To answer your question, the educational ideal that you attribute to
me and the British actually originated with the Ancient Greeks, and
what you have missed is a well-rounded, liberal arts education. Same
thing happens here at Illinois, one of the better engineering schools
in the world. The students want a trade school, hell they don't even
have a foreign language requirement in the Engineering College here.
We graduate skilled tradesmen without critical thinking skills and
that's a crime, a far worse crime than Big 10 football, although being
force to watch this year's Illini could be called felonious assault.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Tim J.
October 24th, 2003, 05:57 PM
"Wolfgang" wrote...
> "Tim J." wrote...
> > "slenon" wrote...
> > > >See what I mean?
> > > >Wolfgang
> > >
> > > Well, I see that if you, Wolfgang, apply yourself just a bit more,
> you can
> > > achieve true schmuck status.
> > >
> > > Let me know when you're through ****ing in the sandbox.
> >
> > Stev, you're really making this too easy for him.
> > Grandma always said, "An unchallenged Wolfgang is an unhappy
> > Wolfgang."
>
> One could wait for a more resonant cranium upon which to beat a
> sonorous tattoo, but then one would be left wondering what to do in
> the long dreary intervals and, as we all know, idle hands are the tool
> of the Devil......who knows what sort of mischief one might fall prey
> to while waiting for better opportunities to do good works.
>
> Wolfgang
> who, as can be seen from the above, has already been reduced by ennui
> to the rather embarrassing expedient of killing time by making a
> pastiche of haphazardly tossed metaphors. :(

Stev - Whatever you do, do NOT respond to this! It's a trap! An evil curse of a
trap with the bait of them thar big fancy dikshunairy words with the intent only
to further entangle. . . . er, never mind. Too late. Sorry, I couldn't get to
it sooner.
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

slenon
October 24th, 2003, 06:14 PM
Ken Fortenberry:

> convention for separating the .sig from the body of a post

So noted.

>To answer your question, the educational ideal that you attribute to
>me and the British actually originated with the Ancient Greeks, and
>what you have missed is a well-rounded, liberal arts education.

I can't address what is happening on today's campus. Perhaps it is as you
say. I no longer live in a collegiate community. My undergrad program
required a full dose of liberal arts to go along with the technical classes.
I still see no benefit in a professional athletics program. I don't see it
as mind broadening. And certainly, as such programs exist today, I would
see no case for any argument that they teach ethics or sportsmanship.

--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

Wolfgang
October 24th, 2003, 06:45 PM
"slenon" > wrote in message
...


> I can't address what is happening on today's campus.

That's o.k. I'm sure I speak for all of ROFFdom in acknowledging that
keeping a finger on the pulse of everything else in the world hardly
allows time enough to do such a frivolous topic what little justice it
deserves.

> Perhaps it is as you say.

Have a care, sirrah! Such a concession is inevitably a first step
onto the slippery slope of mortality and its consequent fallibility.
I seen it happen to lots of guys.

> I no longer live in a collegiate community.

Which, when you think about it, might go a long way toward explaining
your abject failure to apprehend the rudiments of dealing with a
collegial one.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang
October 24th, 2003, 07:53 PM
"rw" > wrote in message
. ..
> Wolfgang wrote:
> > "slenon" > wrote in message
> >
> >> Perhaps it is as you say.
> >
> >
> > Have a care, sirrah! Such a concession is inevitably a first step
> > onto the slippery slope of mortality and its consequent
fallibility.
> > I seen it happen to lots of guys.
>
> But not you! No, sirrah! :-)
>
> Whatever Wolfgang's faults, he doesn't suffer from self doubt.

The common chub, while lacking from a sporting perspective and
unpleasing to the eye, is palatable enough when properly smoked, is
available throughout the year, and it's reckless assault on virtually
anything presented, albeit with another quarry in mind, has saved many
a humble neophyte from returning homeward, dignity and aspirations
crushed, with an empty creel.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang
October 24th, 2003, 08:20 PM
"Greg Pavlov" > wrote in message
...

> That is one hell of a sentence.

The punishment should fit the crime.

Wolfgang

rw
October 24th, 2003, 08:21 PM
Wolfgang wrote:
> "slenon" > wrote in message
>
>> Perhaps it is as you say.
>
>
> Have a care, sirrah! Such a concession is inevitably a first step
> onto the slippery slope of mortality and its consequent fallibility.
> I seen it happen to lots of guys.

But not you! No, sirrah! :-)

Whatever Wolfgang's faults, he doesn't suffer from self doubt.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Wolfgang
October 24th, 2003, 08:25 PM
"rw" > wrote in message
. ..

> Typical Wolfgang -- prose just this side of the purple part of the
> spectrum, intended to show his erudition, so superior to everyone
> else's. It's a cheap trick.


You are certain of the authorship, then? :)

Wolfgang

Wolfgang
October 24th, 2003, 08:36 PM
"Greg Pavlov" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:22:37 -0700, rw
> > wrote:
>
> >It's a cheap trick.
>
> Maybe, but even if so it is a well-executed cheap trick.

Too kind. It was certainly not in the same league as Charlie's
penetrating riposte.

Wolfgang

rw
October 24th, 2003, 09:22 PM
Greg Pavlov wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:53:14 -0500, "Wolfgang" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>The common chub, while lacking from a sporting perspective and
>>unpleasing to the eye, is palatable enough when properly smoked, is
>>available throughout the year, and it's reckless assault on virtually
>>anything presented, albeit with another quarry in mind, has saved many
>>a humble neophyte from returning homeward, dignity and aspirations
>>crushed, with an empty creel.
>
>
>
> That is one hell of a sentence.

Typical Wolfgang -- prose just this side of the purple part of the
spectrum, intended to show his erudition, so superior to everyone
else's. It's a cheap trick.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

David Snedeker
October 24th, 2003, 09:26 PM
Stev
Don't take him too seriously, its hard to ignore but he is basically
cyclical. ie disassembles in a heap of word salad about every six months or
so. Some say he's not too bad to fish with. On a day-to-day basis he's more
like an annoying fly you can't quite swat. Cold weather coming in the rust
belt should slow him down a bit.

Dave

David Snedeker
October 24th, 2003, 10:02 PM
slenon wrote in message ...
>>Curious. . . the Darkstar you refer to... is that Darkstar as in Alan
>Furst, the writer?
>>Dave
>
>No, Dave. Darkstar in this context refers to an improvisational musical
>platform used by the Grateful Dead. >
>
Oh. Well If you like finely detailed East Europe/France intrigue novels set
in pre-WWII, Furst is great and currently hot.
Dave

slenon
October 24th, 2003, 10:29 PM
> Oh. Well If you like finely detailed East >Europe/France intrigue novels
set
>in pre-WWII, Furst is great and currently hot.
>Dave

Thank you for the recommendation. Any particular title you'd suggest?
--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

Stan Gula
October 24th, 2003, 10:35 PM
"Greg Pavlov" > wrote in message
...
> I was commenting on form, not content: I sure as
> heck am not going to step in between you and rw.
>

All that would accomplish is getting your shoes wet.

David Snedeker
October 24th, 2003, 11:00 PM
slenon wrote in message ...
>> Oh. Well If you like finely detailed East >Europe/France intrigue novels
>set
>>in pre-WWII, Furst is great and currently hot.
>>Dave
>
>Thank you for the recommendation. Any particular title you'd suggest?
>--
Latest is "The World at Night"

But all are in Random House trade paperback editions.
"Night Soldiers"
"The Polish Officer"
and of course . . . "Dark Star"

Not for everybody, the genius of Furst is in his ability to transport his
reader to pre-war Europe, into the Fascist and communist circles of the
time, etc.. Alan is a former co-islander, mentored somewhat by the late Jack
Olsen (genre.true crime) Furst relocated to Paris 10+ years ago. Now back in
the US, he is hot.

Dave

Wolfgang
October 24th, 2003, 11:05 PM
"David Snedeker" > wrote in message
...
> Stev
> Don't take him too seriously, its hard to ignore but he is basically
> cyclical. ie disassembles in a heap of word salad about every six months
or
> so. Some say he's not too bad to fish with. On a day-to-day basis he's
more
> like an annoying fly you can't quite swat. Cold weather coming in the rust
> belt should slow him down a bit.
>
> Dave

Well, there ya go, Ste! Altogether, as sound an analysis and as good a bit
of advice as you are likely to get from anyone on this group. Now, I know
what you're thinking.....given his recent......um.....indiscretions.....with
regard to immigrants in general, and Jews in particular, you have
reservations about his judgment, am I right? I mean, we all know that I AM
an immigrant (and German, at that!) and therefore unpredictable and
inherently dangerous in the extreme, while you, by your own admission, are a
Jew. And thus, Dave, the Only Patriotic Man in America would be not only
perfectly within his rights, but actually performing a public service, if he
were to lull you into a false sense of security anent my intentions and
levels of public toxicity. What could be sweeter (from the point of view of
the Only Moral Man in America, that is) than to set us off on that same
old......um.....indelicate..... trail our not so distant ancestors trod to
the world's everlasting shame a few years back.......right? Well, set your
mind at ease. Go back to Dave's post and look closely at your
monitor.....go ahead, I'll wait. O.K., no spittle on the screen, right? No
foam, right? See, Dave got the meds straightened out......he'll be o.k.,
for a few days now.....no, really! Um......well now, wait a minute......we
gotta think this through carefully......I mean, a lot depends on
it......um.....o.k., so IF he's lucid now....and he certainly gives that
appearance.....then maybe....just maybe....he wants us to THINK that all the
anti-Semitic **** and the rabid bigotry is purely a result of the voices and
the secret codes embedded in "Tiger Beat" that he can only decipher when he
self-doses......and then.....and THEN......um......let's
se.....um.....um......um.....****, my brain hurts. :(

Anyway, if I were you I'd watch out for one of us! Hope this helps!
:)

Wolfgang
hey dave.............BOO!
hee, hee, hee.

Wolfgang
October 24th, 2003, 11:18 PM
"Greg Pavlov" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:36:21 -0500, "Wolfgang" >
> wrote:
>
> >> Maybe, but even if so it is a well-executed cheap trick.
> >
> >Too kind. It was certainly not in the same league as Charlie's
> >penetrating riposte.
> >
>
> I was commenting on form, not content:

Yeah, so was I.

> I sure as
> heck am not going to step in between you and rw.

Well, suit yourself, but history suggests that between two warring ROFFians
is about as safe a place to stand as you can find on this planet. :)

Wolfgang

Wolfgang
October 24th, 2003, 11:24 PM
"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Greg Pavlov" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I was commenting on form, not content: I sure as
> > heck am not going to step in between you and rw.
> >
>
> All that would accomplish is getting your shoes wet.

Well, if he wants to lend his shoes to Steve, who are we to interfere?

Wolfgang

David Snedeker
October 24th, 2003, 11:48 PM
Wolfgang wrote in message ...
>
SNIP DEVIL SPAWN CRAP

You throw around the terms "racist and anti-Semite, like someone trying to
over compensate for something. You deserve a really good verbal crack on the
snout. But I'll just say, You really ought to look into the Employee
Assistance Program at work.

To others reading this thread, Im no racist and Im no anti-Semite. Like
those in the Israeli Peace Now Movement, I do oppose Sharon's policies
against the Palestinians. I also do oppose Bush administration officials who
flirt with radical Zionism, and I do want past and present American
officials who have passed US secrets to foreign powers, punished. People can
disagree without hatred.

Dave

Wolfgang
October 25th, 2003, 12:17 AM
"David Snedeker" > wrote in message
...
>
> Wolfgang wrote in message ...
> >
> SNIP DEVIL SPAWN CRAP
>
> You throw around the terms "racist and anti-Semite, like someone trying to
> over compensate for something. You deserve a really good verbal crack on
the
> snout. But I'll just say, You really ought to look into the Employee
> Assistance Program at work.
>
> To others reading this thread, Im no racist and Im no anti-Semite. Like
> those in the Israeli Peace Now Movement, I do oppose Sharon's policies
> against the Palestinians. I also do oppose Bush administration officials
who
> flirt with radical Zionism, and I do want past and present American
> officials who have passed US secrets to foreign powers, punished. People
can
> disagree without hatred.
>
> Dave

You want to play.....or you don't. Doesn't mean **** to me, really.
However, for your own piece of mind.....or what passes there for....I would
suggest you make up your mind before coming out on the floor. Or.......if
someone MADE you participate in this thread, I think you should report the
******* to the Trilateral Commission, the Masons, the (non-existent) Mosad,
and whoever else the voices tell you to. Then you should check into the
feasibility of dropping a thermonuclear device covering a wide geographic
area more or less including that in which the naughty offender resides.

Anyway, the common chub, while lacking from a sporting perspe......um, stop
me if you've heard this one....o.k.?

BOO! :)

Wolfgang
your move.

Wolfgang
October 25th, 2003, 01:23 AM
"rw" > wrote in message
. ..
> Wolfgang wrote:
> > "rw" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> >
> >
> >>Typical Wolfgang -- prose just this side of the purple part of the
> >>spectrum, intended to show his erudition, so superior to everyone
> >>else's. It's a cheap trick.
> >
> >
> >
> > You are certain of the authorship, then? :)
>
> You've resorted to plagarism in the past,

Now, I ask you, how the **** would someone who doesn't read this tripe know
that? Huh?

> so I wouldn't be surprised if you've nicked it from someone.

And that would be your idea of a cutting remark, would it? Not quite up to
the standard of "I'd vote for the bitch being drawn and quartered by those
self-same mules", either in taste or in literary quality, but I suppose
it'll have to do for now.

> I also wouldn't be surprised at your taste in writing

Nor would you have anything resembling a clue as to what my tastes might be.

> (with apologies to Greg).

Don't buy it, Greg. As I'm sure you have guessed long before now, this
piece of **** has never offerred a sincere apology to anyone in his life.
By the way, I hope you appreciate the fact that Stevie has seen fit to
include you in this little tea party. :)

Wolfgang
um.....p.s.
who do you suppose DID write that sorta violetish prose, huh,
steve?.....anything vaguely familiar about that style.....the syntax,
perhaps......peculiarities of punctuation....idiosyncratic tone.....notable
voice.....quirky mood?

Jeff Miller
October 25th, 2003, 01:32 AM
rw wrote:


> Whatever Wolfgang's faults, he doesn't suffer from self doubt.
>

indeed...nor do those who've actually met and spent time with him doubt
his self, nor his doubtless suffering.

jeff (who is suckling at the nipple that used to be his elbow)

Jeff Miller
October 25th, 2003, 01:36 AM
Greg Pavlov wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:53:14 -0500, "Wolfgang" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>The common chub, while lacking from a sporting perspective and
>>unpleasing to the eye, is palatable enough when properly smoked, is
>>available throughout the year, and it's reckless assault on virtually
>>anything presented, albeit with another quarry in mind, has saved many
>>a humble neophyte from returning homeward, dignity and aspirations
>>crushed, with an empty creel.
>
>
>
> That is one hell of a sentence.

obviously costructed after too many pasties, cheese toast with garlic.
and fine wine, while gazing longingly at the beauty of becky...

jeff (who admires the weakness in a man's soul)
>

Jeff Miller
October 25th, 2003, 01:39 AM
rw wrote:

It's a cheap trick.
>

um... well, i disagree on the "cheap" bit...but, as far as the magic
part, well, ok, i agree...

jeff (who knows art and pornography when he sees it)

Jeff Miller
October 25th, 2003, 01:44 AM
Wolfgang wrote:


> pastiche of haphazardly tossed metaphors. :(
>
>

damn...i knew it...is that what i ate in michigan you *******!

jeff (still digestin it all)

a-happy-up-yours
October 25th, 2003, 01:47 AM
Jeff Miller wrote:
>
>
> rw wrote:
>
>
>> Whatever Wolfgang's faults, he doesn't suffer from self doubt.
>>
>
> indeed...nor do those who've actually met and spent time with him doubt
> his self, nor his doubtless suffering.
>
> jeff (who is suckling at the nipple that used to be his elbow)
>
WHOA!!!!
You're suckling Wolfgang's elbow?

Man, this is getting weird......


Tom

n4tab at earthlink dot net

Jeff Miller
October 25th, 2003, 01:53 AM
oh jeezus dave... have you ever actually met and spent a moment with
wolfgang? for someone who seems to be driven by concrete data, logic,
and substance, this post reveals more about superficial qualities than
one would expect of an artist like yourself... perhaps you should visit
the rust belt more often, eh?

jeff

David Snedeker wrote:

> Stev
> Don't take him too seriously, its hard to ignore but he is basically
> cyclical. ie disassembles in a heap of word salad about every six months or
> so. Some say he's not too bad to fish with. On a day-to-day basis he's more
> like an annoying fly you can't quite swat. Cold weather coming in the rust
> belt should slow him down a bit.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>

Ken Fortenberry
October 25th, 2003, 01:55 AM
Jeff Miller wrote:
> Wolfgang wrote:
>
>> pastiche of haphazardly tossed metaphors. :(
>
> damn...i knew it...is that what i ate in michigan you *******!

Nah, that was probably the dangling participle bruschetta. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

rw
October 25th, 2003, 01:59 AM
Wolfgang wrote:
> "rw" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>
>>Typical Wolfgang -- prose just this side of the purple part of the
>>spectrum, intended to show his erudition, so superior to everyone
>>else's. It's a cheap trick.
>
>
>
> You are certain of the authorship, then? :)

You've resorted to plagarism in the past, so I wouldn't be surprised if
you've nicked it from someone. I also wouldn't be surprised at your
taste in writing (with apologies to Greg).

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Wolfgang
October 25th, 2003, 02:13 AM
"Jeff Miller" > wrote in message
news:FDjmb.101242$AH4.52444@lakeread06...
>
>
> .......gazing longingly at the beauty of becky...

Who, upon gazing at the above, says, "Awwwwww.......I just KNEW there was
something I liked about that boy! :) "

Wolfgang
well, they say there is no accounting for taste.

Wolfgang
October 25th, 2003, 02:16 AM
"a-happy-up-yours" > wrote in
message nk.net...
> Jeff Miller wrote:
> >
> >
> > rw wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Whatever Wolfgang's faults, he doesn't suffer from self doubt.
> >>
> >
> > indeed...nor do those who've actually met and spent time with him doubt
> > his self, nor his doubtless suffering.
> >
> > jeff (who is suckling at the nipple that used to be his elbow)
> >
> WHOA!!!!
> You're suckling Wolfgang's elbow?
>
> Man, this is getting weird......
>
>
> Tom

Yeah, who'da thunk his lips were THAT long?!

Wolfgang
FEELS kinda weird too. :(

Jeff Miller
October 25th, 2003, 02:20 AM
ok...that coulda been a bit clearer writ for the drunk reader...
"suckling at the nipple of his own elbow"...will that do? i mean, you
have seen and appreciated my elbow, aint ya? <g>

jeff

a-happy-up-yours wrote:

> Jeff Miller wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> rw wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Whatever Wolfgang's faults, he doesn't suffer from self doubt.
>>>
>>
>> indeed...nor do those who've actually met and spent time with him
>> doubt his self, nor his doubtless suffering.
>>
>> jeff (who is suckling at the nipple that used to be his elbow)
>>
> WHOA!!!!
> You're suckling Wolfgang's elbow?
>
> Man, this is getting weird......
>
>
> Tom
>
> n4tab at earthlink dot net
>

Wolfgang
October 25th, 2003, 02:22 AM
"Jeff Miller" > wrote in message
news:GTjmb.101245$AH4.88951@lakeread06...
> oh jeezus dave... have you ever actually met and spent a moment with
> wolfgang? for someone who seems to be driven by concrete data, logic,
> and substance, this post reveals more about superficial qualities than
> one would expect of an artist like yourself... perhaps you should visit
> the rust belt more often, eh?
>
> jeff

Wellllll......let's not be hasty, o.k.? I mean, if he's wrong......well,
big deal, right? No harm done, really. BUT, what if he's right?!!

I mean, think of the ramifications, man! Good God! It could mean the end
of civilization as we know i.......um........hmmmm......

Wolfgang
sometimes a boy just don't know which way to jump. :(

Wolfgang
October 25th, 2003, 02:26 AM
"Jeff Miller" > wrote in message
news:XKjmb.101244$AH4.37819@lakeread06...
>
>
> Wolfgang wrote:
>
>
> > pastiche of haphazardly tossed metaphors. :(
> >
> >
>
> damn...i knew it...is that what i ate in michigan you *******!
>
> jeff (still digestin it all)

Nah, that was....like, similes. They looks a lot like metaphors but they's
a different sort of critter altogether. I think you'd like 'em.

Wolfgang
all golden brown in a baked pie crust......mmmm....mmm!

Jeff Miller
October 25th, 2003, 02:35 AM
Wolfgang wrote:


> all golden brown in a baked pie crust......mmmm....mmm!
>
>

uuuurrrpppp!!!! oh god, it's like a stephen king short story...

jeff

a-happy-up-yours
October 25th, 2003, 02:40 AM
Jeff Miller wrote:
> ok...that coulda been a bit clearer writ for the drunk reader...
> "suckling at the nipple of his own elbow"...will that do? i mean, you
> have seen and appreciated my elbow, aint ya? <g>
>
> jeff
>
> a-happy-up-yours wrote:
>
>> Jeff Miller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> rw wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Whatever Wolfgang's faults, he doesn't suffer from self doubt.
>>>>
>>>
>>> indeed...nor do those who've actually met and spent time with him
>>> doubt his self, nor his doubtless suffering.
>>>
>>> jeff (who is suckling at the nipple that used to be his elbow)
>>>
>> WHOA!!!!
>> You're suckling Wolfgang's elbow?
>>
>> Man, this is getting weird......
>>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> n4tab at earthlink dot net
>>
>

*Seen*, yeah, but "appreciated" is a bit of a reach. I'll admit to
seeing waldo casting a favorable eye toward your elbow, but, somehow, I
never connected.......uh.....well...uhh.....Man this *is* weird.

Just when you thought you'd seen it all.......elbow fetish.........



Tom

n4tab at earthlink dot net

Wolfgang
October 25th, 2003, 02:53 AM
"a-happy-up-yours" > wrote in
message nk.net...

> Just when you thought you'd seen it all.......elbow fetish.........

Try thinking of it as a joint of fresh meat.......it helps.

Wolfgang
um.......or maybe not. :(

Kevin Vang
October 25th, 2003, 04:53 AM
In article >,
says...
> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:22:37 -0700, rw
> > wrote:
>
> >It's a cheap trick.
>
> Maybe, but even if so it is a well-executed cheap trick.


I was always a fan of cheap trick. "Live at Budokan" was
a masterpiece.

Kevin
non-sequitors-r-us

David Snedeker
October 25th, 2003, 06:12 AM
Jeff Miller wrote in message ...
>oh jeezus dave... have you ever actually met and spent a moment with
>wolfgang? for someone who seems to be driven by concrete data, logic,
>and substance, this post reveals more about superficial qualities than
>one would expect of an artist like yourself... perhaps you should visit
>the rust belt more often, eh?
>


Jeff, Ive met and spent time with at least a dozen or so "Wolfgangs" over
the years. Even had a few for "friends," at least till they blew their
brains out, or I got tired of cleaning up situations their obnoxious
behaviour engendered. I'm retired, and only have a select whacko
"caseload," so help yourself to his whawackneyness and God bless your
tolerance. You're a better man than me McGee.

And who says painters can't be superficial?

Dave

walt winter
October 25th, 2003, 10:44 AM
> *Seen*, yeah, but "appreciated" is a bit of a reach. I'll admit to
> seeing waldo casting a favorable eye toward your elbow, but, somehow, I
> never connected.......uh.....well...uhh.....Man this *is* weird.
>
> Just when you thought you'd seen it all.......elbow fetish.........
>
>
> Tom

aspersionist *******. i was lookin' at the bottle of vodka he was
holdin'.

btw, package delivered. greg's response was.... "tom must be
hinting that my knives are dull." later, as we were enjoying a
cold brew on his front porch overlooking the stream, he implied
that the tool was going to his adobe, not the lodge. steeles
(bowser) is doing fine and growing.... what a cool puppy.

--wally

Wolfgang
October 25th, 2003, 12:57 PM
"David Snedeker" > wrote in message
...
>
> Jeff, Ive met and spent time with at least a dozen or so "Wolfgangs" over
> the years. Even had a few for "friends," at least till they blew their
> brains out, or I got tired of cleaning up situations their obnoxious
> behaviour engendered. I'm retired, and only have a select whacko
> "caseload," so help yourself to his whawackneyness and God bless your
> tolerance.

Ah, the lonely one-man boat of sanity awash on a sea of madness! VERY
painterly. The faint blush of martyrdom, in particular, contrasts nicely
with the overall projected air of jagged edged professionalism.

> You're a better man than me McGee.

That much is doubtless true.

> And who says painters can't be superficial?

Well, the good ones at least present the illusion of depth.

But see here, Dave, as invigorating and delightful as these little exchanges
undeniably are (else, why would anyone participate, right?), they do take
place within the context of a broader community wherein the needs and
desires of ALL the citizens' should be taken into account. If I'm not badly
mistaken, there have lately been hints, however few and subtle, that not
everyone is as amused by these boyish highjinx as thee and me. All well and
good, sez I, we are after all a democracy, and the requirements of the many
naturally and quite reasonably take precedence over the whims of the few.
So, what's to be done, eh? Well, I have a proposal to put before you.

If you, Barnard, Fortenberry, Le, Findley (I am, of course, prepared to make
certain allowances for those entirely without experience), Choc, LaCourse,
and Janik behave like adults for one calendar month, to begin on November
first of this year, I will do the same. There! Just think of it! I offer
all of you a cost free opportunity to have a salutary impact on behavior and
the mental and emotional health of your erstwhile peers, AND at the same
time gain some measure of the respect for which you all so desperately long
and yet find so damnably elusive. What could be more fair and equitable
than that? At the very least, it should prove to be an interesting
experiment in self-restraint and behavior modification. Whattya say?

Wolfgang
who reserves the right to crucify grossly deficient readers (there is just
NO excuse for that **** in this day and age) and sundry ****-weasels as they
make notice of their presence inescapable.

Charlie Choc
October 25th, 2003, 01:30 PM
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:57:20 -0500, "Wolfgang" >
wrote:
[snip]
>behave like adults for one calendar month, to begin on November
>first of this year, I will do the same.

Kind of a presumptive proposition, eh?
--
Charlie...

Ken Fortenberry
October 25th, 2003, 02:22 PM
Wolfgang wrote:
>
> ... behave like adults for one calendar month, ...

Count me out. There's a SPAMming piece of **** outfitter in British
Columbia who's just begging for the full treatment.

--
Ken Fortenberry

slenon
October 25th, 2003, 04:11 PM
Wolfg:
> I offer all of you a cost free opportunity to have a salutary impact on
behavior and
>the mental and emotional health of your erstwhile peers, AND at the same
>time gain some measure of the respect for which you all so desperately long
>and yet find so damnably elusive.

TANSTAAFL

--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

rw
October 25th, 2003, 05:18 PM
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
> Wolfgang wrote:
>
>>
>> ... behave like adults for one calendar month, ...
>
>
> Count me out. There's a SPAMming piece of **** outfitter in British
> Columbia who's just begging for the full treatment.

So you're going to give him a virtual blowjob?

What a pathetic dip**** you are, Fortenberry.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Guyz-N-Flyz
October 25th, 2003, 09:23 PM
"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...
> If you, Barnard, Fortenberry, Le, Findley (I am, of course, prepared to
make
> certain allowances for those entirely without experience), Choc, LaCourse,
> and Janik behave like adults for one calendar month, to begin on November
> first of this year, I will do the same. There! Just think of it! I
offer
> all of you a cost free opportunity to have a salutary impact on behavior
and
> the mental and emotional health of your erstwhile peers, AND at the same
> time gain some measure of the respect for which you all so desperately
long
> and yet find so damnably elusive. What could be more fair and equitable
> than that? At the very least, it should prove to be an interesting
> experiment in self-restraint and behavior modification. Whattya say?
>
> Wolfgang

I never get included in any of the fun ****! Thanks, you heartless bastid!

Op --just once, that's all I ask, JUST ONCE!--

David Snedeker
October 25th, 2003, 11:45 PM
Wolfgang wrote in message ...
>
SNIP
>So, what's to be done, eh? Well, I have a proposal to put before you.
>
>If you, Barnard, Fortenberry, Le, Findley (I am, of course, prepared to
make
>certain allowances for those entirely without experience), Choc, LaCourse,
>and Janik behave like adults for one calendar month, to begin on November
>first of this year, I will do the same. There! Just think of it! I offer
>all of you a cost free opportunity to have a salutary impact on behavior
and
>the mental and emotional health of your erstwhile peers, AND at the same
>time gain some measure of the respect for which you all so desperately long
>and yet find so damnably elusive. What could be more fair and equitable
>than that? At the very least, it should prove to be an interesting
>experiment in self-restraint and behavior modification. Whattya say?
>
Interesting proposition. But perhaps a bit too overly ambitious to succeed.
Too many moving parts. Lets entertain an alternative: How about YOU and I
enter into essentially the same bargain to "behave like adults for one
calendar month?" . . . see, a one-for one deal. Maybe even appoint a
"proctor" to sort out close calls OFFLINE? Someone not known to get into
****ing matches (Walt, Harry, George, Snoop, Bruiser, Wilson etc,etc) or
without one if no-one has the stomach for it(?)

Dave

David Snedeker
October 26th, 2003, 12:05 AM
ROFLMAO
Dave

rw
October 26th, 2003, 01:00 AM
David Snedeker wrote:
>
> Interesting proposition. But perhaps a bit too overly ambitious to succeed.
> Too many moving parts. Lets entertain an alternative: How about YOU and I
> enter into essentially the same bargain to "behave like adults for one
> calendar month?" . . . see, a one-for one deal. Maybe even appoint a
> "proctor" to sort out close calls OFFLINE?

Me! ME! MEEEEEE!

> Someone not known to get into
> ****ing matches (Walt, Harry, George, Snoop, Bruiser, Wilson etc,etc)

Oh. Never mind.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Wolfgang
October 27th, 2003, 12:20 AM
"Charlie Choc" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:57:20 -0500, "Wolfgang" >
> wrote:
> [snip]
> >behave like adults for one calendar month, to begin on November
> >first of this year, I will do the same.
>
> Kind of a presumptive proposition, eh?
> --
> Charlie...

Wasn't asking anyone to do anything I'm not prepared to do myself. Wasn't
really asking anyone to do anything, if you think about it. Where's the
presumption? You're just ****ed because you know that, as you have just
demonstrated once again, you'd still get cracked on the deficient reader
clause.

Wolfgang

Charlie Choc
October 27th, 2003, 01:02 AM
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:20:09 -0600, "Wolfgang" >
wrote:

>Wasn't asking anyone to do anything I'm not prepared to do myself. Wasn't
>really asking anyone to do anything, if you think about it. Where's the
>presumption?

You took it for granted (presumed) that the people of your list would
care about your little dare.

>You're just ****ed because you know that, as you have just
>demonstrated once again, you'd still get cracked on the deficient reader
>clause.
>
Such a pompous little man. <g>
--
Charlie...

Wolfgang
October 27th, 2003, 01:30 AM
"David Snedeker" > wrote in message
...
>

> Interesting proposition.

I thought so too. Evidently we are in the minority.

> But perhaps a bit too overly ambitious to succeed.

Let your reach exceed your grasp, else you will certainly spend the rest of
your life replaying the same old tired masturbatory role reversing fantasy
in which everybody else in the world is an ideologue and Dave is
rational.....not to mention subjecting a whole lot of other people who
aren't interested and who, by and large, deserve better treatment, to
endless repetitions of it. To be perfectly frank, it's kinda sick, and I'd
be much surprised if anyone else really is titillated by it.

> Too many moving parts.

How refreshing, at long last, to encounter a euphemism that accurately
elucidates your opinion of the insignificant fraction of humanity that is
not Dave. Not that I agree with your opinion, mind you, I'm just delighted
that you have finally seen fit to express it so baldly.

> Lets entertain an alternative:

I take it then, that you are declining to participate in my proposed
experiment. In a work of fiction, this would be the point where the
protagonist expresses shock and dismay at learning that his well crafted
plan to save the world is rejected out of hand without so much a hint that
it had been given serious consideration by anyone whose consideration should
be taken seriously. In reality, I'm not surprised.

>How about YOU and I
> enter into essentially the same bargain to "behave like adults for one
> calendar month?" . . . see, a one-for one deal.

Ah, mano y mano, huh? Just you and the mind-numbingly inept hired assasin
in one last final showdown that will decide conclusivley and forever who
runs this town, eh? A hush falls over the multitude as they engage in a
collective yawn and, in sudden blinking awareness, ask themselves, "Oh, so,
it's the same old drill is it......this is all about Dave again,
huh......well ****, what ain't?".

> Maybe even appoint a "proctor" to sort out close calls OFFLINE?

"OFFLINE?"? As in something that shouldn't see the light of day? If you're
suggesting the kind of thing that your projected persona and you history in
ROFF inevitably make one suppose, then I assure you I am not the least bit
interested.......and somebody should tell your mother! :(

> Someone not known to get into
> ****ing matches (Walt, Harry, George, Snoop, Bruiser, Wilson etc,etc)

In the admittedly unlikely event that any of them should prove so ungracious
as to neglect to thank you for involving them in this, please allow me to do
so for them. I am certain that they will thank me for it.

> or without one if no-one has the stomach for it(?)

Or.......if you don't like my idea (it's o.k., LOTS of people.....especially
at your age....are afraid to try something entirely outside their
experience......no shame in that) we can just go on as before.....hey, it'll
be LOADS of fun! :)

Wolfgang

Wolfgang
October 27th, 2003, 05:15 AM
"Charlie Choc" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:20:09 -0600, "Wolfgang" >
> wrote:
>
> >Wasn't asking anyone to do anything I'm not prepared to do myself.
Wasn't
> >really asking anyone to do anything, if you think about it. Where's the
> >presumption?
>
> You took it for granted (presumed) that the people of your list would
> care about your little dare.

See, this is EXACTLY why I insisted on reserving the right to chastise
grossly deficient readers! As you will will not be able to follow the rest
of this paragraph, I strongly urge you to skip it (thus saving yourself any
further embarrassment), and leave it as an explication for those of marginal
literacy. While the offer I made was tongue in cheek, due in no small part
to the fact that the very candidates named are by their nature in no
position to make good on a promise to participate, I would have been happy
to see it through. It WOULD have been an interesting experiment. That
said, it was obvious even before I broached the subject, that no thinking
person would take it seriously, let alone "...care about [my] little dare"
(which, incidentally, was no such thing). But, there's the rub. No
thinking person was invited to participate, as is eminently clear from the
responses generated thus far. If I were dealing with thinking persons
(read"adults") I would never have made the offer in the first
place......there is no reason to suppose that the thought would have
occurred to me under such circumstances......there would have been no
reason. Conversely, if I HAD been dealing with adults (and assuming that
such an offer had been put before them for God knows what reason), it is
perfectly natural and reasonable to suppose that I would have gotten
something bearing at least a faint resemblance to an adult response. See?

> >You're just ****ed because you know that, as you have just
> >demonstrated once again, you'd still get cracked on the deficient reader
> >clause.
> >
> Such a pompous little man. <g>

Well, what can one say in response to cleverness of that caliber? <winky,
winky, nudge, nudge> :)

Wolfgang
no fish were killed in the writing of this message.

David Snedeker
October 28th, 2003, 07:25 PM
Wolfgang
Just read your last post over a few times, slowly, and ask yourself why it
made sense to you when you wrote it. Then ask yourself if you really need
half a dozen guys accompanying you to enable a month's good behaviour.

Dave

Wolfgang
October 28th, 2003, 08:01 PM
"David Snedeker" > wrote in message
...
> Wolfgang
> Just read your last post over a few times, slowly, and ask yourself
why it
> made sense to you when you wrote it.

O.k., hang on just a minute..............

Hm.........well, I guess it made sense to me when I wrote it because
the specific dates for a SE Minnesota clave don't really make a great
deal of difference to me. The part about Friday was just for humorous
effect.

> Then ask yourself if you really need
> half a dozen guys accompanying you to enable a month's good
behaviour.

I see your point. No, I guess a few days in Cyli's company will have
a salutary effect sufficient to last me a month or so. It worked last
time.

Wolfgang
who is always grateful for any guidance resulting in a clearer
perception of the often bewildering world in which he finds himself.

Warren
October 31st, 2003, 02:46 AM
wrote...
> If you, Barnard, Fortenberry, Le, Findley <snipped more crap from the resident nut)

Oh, oh, oh! I made a Wolfthang list! Hey Wolfie, I look forward to seeing you
again too. :-)
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)

Wolfgang
October 31st, 2003, 02:52 AM
"Warren" > wrote in message
...
> wrote...
> > If you, Barnard, Fortenberry, Le, Findley <snipped more crap from the
resident nut)
>
> Oh, oh, oh! I made a Wolfthang list! Hey Wolfie, I look forward to
seeing you
> again too. :-)

Hm......

Wolfgang
who is not entirely sure whether he feels warm and fuzzy or very
uncomfortable.

Warren
November 2nd, 2003, 09:12 AM
wrote...
> The difference between some of us and yourself is that while we
> might agree with the basic premise, we don't put ourselves in the
> self-important position of presuming to know what's best for them and
> feel the need to "enlighten" them.

A certain somebody from the Great State of Cheese may wish to print that for
future reference.....

--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)