Small business in the USA.......... [Archive]

Tim J.

October 18th, 2003, 07:05 PM

"Bill Kiene" wrote...
>
> I have had my own small business in California for about 30 years. In the US
> and particularly California, small businesses are threatened more now than
> ever. Many are closing down because they just can't make things profitable
> any more with constantly rising overheads like insurances, taxes and
> benefits. Even is a good economy things will be tough for small/medium size
> businesses.
>
> In the future in the US many will need to have a very small business with no
> employees right out of their home so there is almost no overhead. The other
> businesses will all have to be very large to compete by merging constantly.
> Businesses will have to be extremely small and efficient or extremely large
> and efficient to compete in today's world economy.
>
> Most "mom & pop" stores like mine will never survive in today's market. I am
> only still here in business because I have been in business for a long time
> and have not debt service.
>
> If you find a small business of any kind that really does a good job for
> you, I would try to support and promote them as much as possible so they can
> survive these times.
>
> Most "state workers" and "school teachers" in CA make much more than most
> small business owners.

This is a really self-serving message, Bill. Business owners make the choice to
be business owners - no one else does that for them. Much of that decision may
have nothing to do with making the big bucks.

BTW, I DO try to support local small businesses, but only when they offer me
something back, like convenience, specialized service, or even something as
simple as taking the time to know my name. We have a local pet store in town
where I buy all my pet supplies. The guy treats me right, greets me by name,
talks to me about the weather, and gives great advice. We have a local sporting
goods store that I go to only when it's convenient for me because I've been
going there for 15 years and they still treat me with the same indifference as
the first day I walked in the door. There's a fly shop not too far from my house
that I go to only infrequently because of the same reasons. Most of my purchases
are from a fly shop 1,000 miles from my door because they treat me like a friend
and they show appreciation for my business.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

George Adams

October 18th, 2003, 07:50 PM

>From: "Tim J."

>We have a local sporting
>goods store that I go to only when it's convenient for me because I've been
>going there for 15 years and they still treat me with the same indifference
>as
>the first day I walked in the door.

>There's a fly shop not too far from my house
>that I go to only infrequently because of the same reasons. Most of my
>purchases
>are from a fly shop 1,000 miles from my door because they treat me like a
>friend
>and they show appreciation for my business.

Yup, I'm sure we are speaking of the same two local stores, and my experiences
are the same. Not only that, but store #2 is way too pricey. Funny thing is,
I'll stop in at the Orvis store in Manchester, VT a couple times a year and get
treated better than at the local stores. I also agree about mail order. At this
stage of my fishing life I am pretty well set except for a bit of tying
material, leaders and tippets, and the occasional line. I've narrowed my
choices down to two mail order houses, (both well known on ROFF), that I
mentioned in a previous post. Although I have never met either owner in person,
I have received excellent service and value from both, and kind of wish I had
more business to give them.

George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller

October 18th, 2003, 11:35 PM

Jeff Miller wrote:
> on the contrary, tim, i think bill is simply stating a fact based on his
> unique position and experience. i don't recall him engaging in
> self-serving solicitations here, nor do i think his comment in this
> forum has much meaning in terms of his own shop's success. it does
> suggest a philosophy of consumption that can have meaning for others,
> though i'm afraid the die is cast. i'm glad bill, walt, and harry are
> here...and i hope folks will continue to support them and others like
> them by making purchases from them instead of from cabela's, etc. - even
> if it costs a few dollars more.

Right on, Jeff. I'll tell you what. When you go into Bill's shop you get
service and personal attention from someone who knows what he's talking
about, whether it's Bill or someone on his staff. That's worth
something, because you'll never get it at Walmart.

I'll confess to buying stuff from places like Cabelas and Garts, but I
have to know EXACTLY what I want. If I'm buying high-ticket items that
can't be discounted, like a Sage rod, I'll buy from Bill or someone like
him, and if Bill (or some flyshop owner like him) can give me a
reasonable discount on high-ticket items that can be discounted (like a
pontoon boat), I'll buy from him.

Harry Mason's flies are the best. Period. Full stop.

I've never ordered anything from Walt, to my utter shame. I'll have to
fix that eventually.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Bill Kiene

October 19th, 2003, 06:21 AM

Tim,

I agree with you completely and I guess if you slowed down and re-read my
post you would see we are saying about the same thing.

You are doing the right thing. I like your style. I wish more people shopped
like you do.

We have people come in and spend a half hour with one of my staff trying on
every wader and boot we have in stock and then tell my sale help they are
ordering it out of state to merely save the sales tax.(7.5%) We 90% of all
the fly shops are closed in about 5 to 10 years, that person can't abuse us
any more.

If someone doesn't treat you right don't support them because they don't
belong in a small business.

Your friend in the pet shop should be around for a long time because he does
understand how things are suppose to be.

Part of my point is to make sure no one thinks quitting that government job
and starting a small business in CA is going to be a good idea unless it is
out of his or her home with no employees.

My prediction is in about ten years in the US there will only be ultra small
business like out of a home or extremely large businesses like Costco and
Wal-Mart.

Also, I am not complaining, just observing after 40 years of retailing.

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com

"Tim J." > wrote in message
news:3ifkb.586585$cF.256421@rwcrnsc53...
>
> "Bill Kiene" wrote...
> >
> > I have had my own small business in California for about 30 years. In
the US
> > and particularly California, small businesses are threatened more now
than
> > ever. Many are closing down because they just can't make things
profitable
> > any more with constantly rising overheads like insurances, taxes and
> > benefits. Even is a good economy things will be tough for small/medium
size
> > businesses.
> >
> > In the future in the US many will need to have a very small business
with no
> > employees right out of their home so there is almost no overhead. The
other
> > businesses will all have to be very large to compete by merging
constantly.
> > Businesses will have to be extremely small and efficient or extremely
large
> > and efficient to compete in today's world economy.
> >
> > Most "mom & pop" stores like mine will never survive in today's market.
I am
> > only still here in business because I have been in business for a long
time
> > and have not debt service.
> >
> > If you find a small business of any kind that really does a good job for
> > you, I would try to support and promote them as much as possible so they
can
> > survive these times.
> >
> > Most "state workers" and "school teachers" in CA make much more than
most
> > small business owners.
>
> This is a really self-serving message, Bill. Business owners make the
choice to
> be business owners - no one else does that for them. Much of that decision
may
> have nothing to do with making the big bucks.
>
> BTW, I DO try to support local small businesses, but only when they offer
me
> something back, like convenience, specialized service, or even something
as
> simple as taking the time to know my name. We have a local pet store in
town
> where I buy all my pet supplies. The guy treats me right, greets me by
name,
> talks to me about the weather, and gives great advice. We have a local
sporting
> goods store that I go to only when it's convenient for me because I've
been
> going there for 15 years and they still treat me with the same
indifference as
> the first day I walked in the door. There's a fly shop not too far from my
house
> that I go to only infrequently because of the same reasons. Most of my
purchases
> are from a fly shop 1,000 miles from my door because they treat me like a
friend
> and they show appreciation for my business.
> --
> TL,
> Tim
> http://css.sbcma.com/timj
>
>

BishFish

October 19th, 2003, 09:30 AM

Bill,
your snippet about having a 'customer' try on many pairs of waders and then
blithely walk out the door telling how he was going to buy it somewhere else
to save a few bucks, made me smile.
I started and owned NZ's biggest independent tackle shop which I had for 10
years, but the pressure put on margins by the chains, groups, and yes
Cabelas and Bass Pro, forced me to rethink whether I needed the agro - and I
guess the deciding factor was just how often we 'sold' the product, which
the 'customer' bought elsewhere, so "Just Fishin" was sold.

But even amongst these problems were a few treasures:
I spent nearly two hours selling a couple of Korean businessmen a full trout
fishing kit-out, rods reels, lines, waders, flies - you name it they
bought - well they eventually bought it after nearly twenty minutes of
haggling over discounts. The haggling over, my margin slashed but not
fatally, the money safely in my till, one of the gentlemen asked me how to
set up some of the gear - I, joking, replied that it would cost him $100.00
and carried on with the demo. At the end of the demo the businessman handed
me a $100.00 note, I said I was only joking.
He 'forced' the money on me saying, "Bish, as you already know I will argue
and haggle all day over the price of things, but I will never haggle over
the price of knowledge!"

Running a tackle shop ain't all bad:-)

Tony Bishop

walt winter

October 19th, 2003, 12:49 PM

Bill Kiene wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I have had my own small business in California for about 30 years. In the US
> and particularly California, small businesses are threatened more now than
> ever. Many are closing down because they just can't make things profitable
> any more with constantly rising overheads like insurances, taxes and
> benefits. Even is a good economy things will be tough for small/medium size
> businesses.
>
> In the future in the US many will need to have a very small business with no
> employees right out of their home so there is almost no overhead. The other
> businesses will all have to be very large to compete by merging constantly.
> Businesses will have to be extremely small and efficient or extremely large
> and efficient to compete in today's world economy.
>
> Most "mom & pop" stores like mine will never survive in today's market. I am
> only still here in business because I have been in business for a long time
> and have not debt service.
>
> If you find a small business of any kind that really does a good job for
> you, I would try to support and promote them as much as possible so they can
> survive these times.
>
> Most "state workers" and "school teachers" in CA make much more than most
> small business owners.
>

Bill, you're observations, as viwed by me, seem to be correct.
Here in NC, I have personally seen or heard of five fly shops
closing down in the last two years.

When I started the "flyshop" out of the house back in '98, I did
so to diversify my bookstore. I had carefully observed the
statistics and there was a noticable declining trend in online
sales. The "bread-and-butter" books were no longer selling for 8
or so dollars..... they were selling for 5 bucks or so and today
even lower in most instances. That is great for the consumer but
is a death knell for an entreprenuer. I couldn't compete with the
garage sellers selling books for those prices. More
importantly, it was, and still is, becoming harder and harder to
find quality antiquarian books and art which I could offer to my
clients.

So, I diversified and with a bit-of-luck, the welcome fiscal
support of many roffians, hard work, and some most appreciated
advise that you personally provided me, I was able to build the
small home-based business (about 40 square feet) into a nice
modest store a few years later.

Is it tough? Hell yes. Most times, like most small business
owners, I'm worried about paying my bills on time and meeting
payroll. Many times my very modest salary check goes uncashed for
weeks at a time. I won't talk about the hours.

Is it worth it? Hell yes. I'm, well presently, happily
self-employed. The decisions I make are mine and mine alone. Some
are good and some are not so good. Live and learn. Although times
at the shop can oftentimes be boring as hell as you wonder if
anyone will ever walk through the front door again, when that
someone does, it is fun.

Well, enough babbling.... time to try and go fishing on my day
off.... if I can manage to complete the honeydews ;-)

--Wally

Tim J.

October 19th, 2003, 01:19 PM

"Bill Kiene" wrote...
> Tim,
>
> I agree with you completely and I guess if you slowed down and re-read my
> post you would see we are saying about the same thing.

Sometimes writing is not the best way to communicate. When the first sentence of
your post is all about you, it brings the rest of the post with it. If you agree
completely with my post, then we are on the same page. My father-in-law owned a
business in SoCal for years, and I watched him struggle with many of the issues
you mentioned. But he provided the service and community the bigger companies
did not and was successful. The main success of the business was not the
financial gain, but that he was able to keep many family members employed and
taught his children good lessons about what is expected of them along the way. I
include myself in that bundle - I worked for him for ten years and think of him
often when choices are before me. Kinda like a WWFD decision, only water and
falling aren't usually involved. :)
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

October 19th, 2003, 02:39 PM

Bill Kiene wrote:
>
> PS: It is really sad to hear about how many people that have fly shops treat
> people badly. When I hear this, I wonder why they ever got into this
> business?

The town I (usually) live in has five fly shops and there are about the
same number within an hour and a half drive. There is a huge turnover,
not just in staff, but also, recently, in owners. I think most got into
it because they love fishing, then they find out they're in a wildly
competitive business in an "industry" that's no longer in the
exponential phase of its growth curve. They've either got no time for
fishing or they find themselves--when they come back from a fishing
trip--sorting out the messes made by the hired help. When I see the
headaches they have, I think that if I wanted to kill my own love for
fishing, nothing would do it sooner than buying a fly shop.

The problem you have, though, with customers wasting your staff's time
in order to avoid sales taxes.... Arnold's going to sort that all out
soon, no? ;)

Joking aside, hope you can hang in there and find a way to continue
enjoying it.

JR

Bill Kiene

October 19th, 2003, 05:45 PM

Thanks for the great post, Tony.

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com

"BishFish" > wrote in message
...
> Bill,
> your snippet about having a 'customer' try on many pairs of waders and
then
> blithely walk out the door telling how he was going to buy it somewhere
else
> to save a few bucks, made me smile.
> I started and owned NZ's biggest independent tackle shop which I had for
10
> years, but the pressure put on margins by the chains, groups, and yes
> Cabelas and Bass Pro, forced me to rethink whether I needed the agro - and
I
> guess the deciding factor was just how often we 'sold' the product, which
> the 'customer' bought elsewhere, so "Just Fishin" was sold.
>
> But even amongst these problems were a few treasures:
> I spent nearly two hours selling a couple of Korean businessmen a full
trout
> fishing kit-out, rods reels, lines, waders, flies - you name it they
> bought - well they eventually bought it after nearly twenty minutes of
> haggling over discounts. The haggling over, my margin slashed but not
> fatally, the money safely in my till, one of the gentlemen asked me how to
> set up some of the gear - I, joking, replied that it would cost him
$100.00
> and carried on with the demo. At the end of the demo the businessman
handed
> me a $100.00 note, I said I was only joking.
> He 'forced' the money on me saying, "Bish, as you already know I will
argue
> and haggle all day over the price of things, but I will never haggle over
> the price of knowledge!"
>
> Running a tackle shop ain't all bad:-)
>
> Tony Bishop
>
>
>
>

Bill Kiene

October 19th, 2003, 05:48 PM

Thanks Tim for trying to understand my message.

I don't always have the best way of getting my point accrooss as I was
fooling around too much in school.
--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com

"Tim J." > wrote in message
news:Ajvkb.826068$uu5.145941@sccrnsc04...
>
> "Bill Kiene" wrote...
> > Tim,
> >
> > I agree with you completely and I guess if you slowed down and re-read
my
> > post you would see we are saying about the same thing.
>
> Sometimes writing is not the best way to communicate. When the first
sentence of
> your post is all about you, it brings the rest of the post with it. If you
agree
> completely with my post, then we are on the same page. My father-in-law
owned a
> business in SoCal for years, and I watched him struggle with many of the
issues
> you mentioned. But he provided the service and community the bigger
companies
> did not and was successful. The main success of the business was not the
> financial gain, but that he was able to keep many family members employed
and
> taught his children good lessons about what is expected of them along the
way. I
> include myself in that bundle - I worked for him for ten years and think
of him
> often when choices are before me. Kinda like a WWFD decision, only water
and
> falling aren't usually involved. :)
> --
> TL,
> Tim
> http://css.sbcma.com/timj
>
>

Bill Kiene

October 19th, 2003, 05:54 PM

Hi Walt,

A very low overhead is a great thing.

My first big one is the $4,000.00US I pay for rent each month. If I was not
in a big city with two other serious fly shops I would go back to a 500 sq
ft shop in a small town.

A small shop is the smart thing so rent and salaries are not killing us.

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com

"walt winter" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Kiene wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I have had my own small business in California for about 30 years. In
the US
> > and particularly California, small businesses are threatened more now
than
> > ever. Many are closing down because they just can't make things
profitable
> > any more with constantly rising overheads like insurances, taxes and
> > benefits. Even is a good economy things will be tough for small/medium
size
> > businesses.
> >
> > In the future in the US many will need to have a very small business
with no
> > employees right out of their home so there is almost no overhead. The
other
> > businesses will all have to be very large to compete by merging
constantly.
> > Businesses will have to be extremely small and efficient or extremely
large
> > and efficient to compete in today's world economy.
> >
> > Most "mom & pop" stores like mine will never survive in today's market.
I am
> > only still here in business because I have been in business for a long
time
> > and have not debt service.
> >
> > If you find a small business of any kind that really does a good job for
> > you, I would try to support and promote them as much as possible so they
can
> > survive these times.
> >
> > Most "state workers" and "school teachers" in CA make much more than
most
> > small business owners.
> >
>
> Bill, you're observations, as viwed by me, seem to be correct.
> Here in NC, I have personally seen or heard of five fly shops
> closing down in the last two years.
>
> When I started the "flyshop" out of the house back in '98, I did
> so to diversify my bookstore. I had carefully observed the
> statistics and there was a noticable declining trend in online
> sales. The "bread-and-butter" books were no longer selling for 8
> or so dollars..... they were selling for 5 bucks or so and today
> even lower in most instances. That is great for the consumer but
> is a death knell for an entreprenuer. I couldn't compete with the
> garage sellers selling books for those prices. More
> importantly, it was, and still is, becoming harder and harder to
> find quality antiquarian books and art which I could offer to my
> clients.
>
> So, I diversified and with a bit-of-luck, the welcome fiscal
> support of many roffians, hard work, and some most appreciated
> advise that you personally provided me, I was able to build the
> small home-based business (about 40 square feet) into a nice
> modest store a few years later.
>
> Is it tough? Hell yes. Most times, like most small business
> owners, I'm worried about paying my bills on time and meeting
> payroll. Many times my very modest salary check goes uncashed for
> weeks at a time. I won't talk about the hours.
>
> Is it worth it? Hell yes. I'm, well presently, happily
> self-employed. The decisions I make are mine and mine alone. Some
> are good and some are not so good. Live and learn. Although times
> at the shop can oftentimes be boring as hell as you wonder if
> anyone will ever walk through the front door again, when that
> someone does, it is fun.
>
> Well, enough babbling.... time to try and go fishing on my day
> off.... if I can manage to complete the honeydews ;-)
>
> --Wally
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

John Lindsey

October 20th, 2003, 12:11 AM

"Bill Kiene" > wrote in message
.com...
> Hi All,
<<Bill's experiences snipped for brevity>>
In support of your thesis, the local bus service ran an ad on local TV
channel where they proudly stated that their bus service was paid for by all
local businesses both in-store and home based at the rate of $6 per $1000 in
receipts! What an exorbitant fee! I don't recall if it was based upon
gross or net receipts but either way any fee laid on businesses by the bus
company is highway robbery IMHO.

Regardless of whether a fly shop is in a store front or in somebody's
garage, nobody ever will ride the bus to buy any fly fishing tackle or
materials. The audacity of these bureaucratic people that gleefully and
adamantly brag is that their almost totally unused and seemingly always
empty bus services were paid for by local businesses - not riders! The
local barber is struggling. The lady who runs the local shoe repair laid
off all her cobblers and is planning on closing. The appliance shop now
mostly is a used repair facility and the TV store is now a repair facility
struggling to survive.

You're right Bill. The politicians are taxing small businesses to their
death. And I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel, do you?.

John

October 20th, 2003, 02:03 AM

John Lindsey wrote:
>
> Regardless of whether a fly shop is in a store front or in somebody's
> garage, nobody ever will ride the bus to buy any fly fishing tackle or
> materials.

I sure did before I was 16 years old. I recall vividly taking the bus to
downtown Baltimore to visit the best tackle shop in town.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Oldfrat

October 20th, 2003, 02:15 AM

You started an interesting thread, Bill.

It looks like you are talking about three major problems.

The first one comes from the government. Raising sales taxes and other
policies that are pursued without care for the small business owner. You
Californians have just sent a strong message about stuff like this and your
posting is another way of getting the message out. I hope you will continue
to be vocal and voting to get the politicians to do the right thing for you.

The second comes from the big box stores with their catalogs and Internet
catalogs. The three big ones for fly fishing all do a terrific job on
customer service. They have the advantage of being able to carry huge
inventories over a broad range of products --something no local fly shop can
manage. So, how do you compete? Well, knowledge of the local waters is
somthing the big boxes haven't figured out --yet. And, great as their
service levels are, they still can't deal with us as personally as the local
fly shop can.

I have one local fly shop where they treat me with less personalized service
than Cabela's does. They got three tries and now get my business only in an
unusual emergency where I need something immediately and they are the only
ones who have it in stock. I have another local fly shop where they greet
me by name whenever I walk in the door and seem happy to answer questions
and offer advice. I give them all of my business for stuff that they have
and the catalogs have. It is immensely valuable to me to have this advice
available nearby and I value the relationship. I feel I have a vested
interest in keeping them profitable and in business.

An idea for you here is that I had to figure out for myself that their
prices were often the same as the catalogs --sometimes better when you put
in both the sales tax and shipping costs. Wonder if local fly shops should
do more to promote this.... posting signs that compare their total prices to
those of the big three? Or maybe posting a sign saying that ,on products in
a specific range of categories, you will match or beat the total prices of
the big three in their normal (non-sale) catalogs?

The third problem has to do with your potential customers. Some are just
plain jerks. Anybody who would walk into a fly shop, use up your time to
get demos, and then waltz out the door telling you that they plan to buy
from a catalog to save on the sales tax is a jerk. They ought to be told
that they are welcome back any time, but not to ask for any assistance other
than the sales transaction! The customers who do this on the sly are
something else. They may be people who are on a tight budget, worried that
their job is about to be shipped offshore, or unemployed. Heck, they may
even be small business owners who are feeling the same pinch you are. I
suspect the anwer there is the same as for problem one. We'll all have more
money to spend at local shops when we all have secure jobs that are based
here in our country.

"Bill Kiene" > wrote in message
.com...
> Tim,
>
> I agree with you completely and I guess if you slowed down and re-read my
> post you would see we are saying about the same thing.
>
> You are doing the right thing. I like your style. I wish more people
shopped
> like you do.
>
> We have people come in and spend a half hour with one of my staff trying
on
> every wader and boot we have in stock and then tell my sale help they are
> ordering it out of state to merely save the sales tax.(7.5%) We 90% of all
> the fly shops are closed in about 5 to 10 years, that person can't abuse
us
> any more.
>
> If someone doesn't treat you right don't support them because they don't
> belong in a small business.
>
> Your friend in the pet shop should be around for a long time because he
does
> understand how things are suppose to be.
>
> Part of my point is to make sure no one thinks quitting that government
job
> and starting a small business in CA is going to be a good idea unless it
is
> out of his or her home with no employees.
>
> My prediction is in about ten years in the US there will only be ultra
small
> business like out of a home or extremely large businesses like Costco and
> Wal-Mart.
>
> Also, I am not complaining, just observing after 40 years of retailing.
>
> --
> Bill Kiene
>
> Kiene's Fly Shop
> Sacramento, CA
> www.kiene.com
>
> "Tim J." > wrote in message
> news:3ifkb.586585$cF.256421@rwcrnsc53...
> >
> > "Bill Kiene" wrote...
> > >
> > > I have had my own small business in California for about 30 years. In
> the US
> > > and particularly California, small businesses are threatened more now
> than
> > > ever. Many are closing down because they just can't make things
> profitable
> > > any more with constantly rising overheads like insurances, taxes and
> > > benefits. Even is a good economy things will be tough for small/medium
> size
> > > businesses.
> > >
> > > In the future in the US many will need to have a very small business
> with no
> > > employees right out of their home so there is almost no overhead. The
> other
> > > businesses will all have to be very large to compete by merging
> constantly.
> > > Businesses will have to be extremely small and efficient or extremely
> large
> > > and efficient to compete in today's world economy.
> > >
> > > Most "mom & pop" stores like mine will never survive in today's
market.
> I am
> > > only still here in business because I have been in business for a long
> time
> > > and have not debt service.
> > >
> > > If you find a small business of any kind that really does a good job
for
> > > you, I would try to support and promote them as much as possible so
they
> can
> > > survive these times.
> > >
> > > Most "state workers" and "school teachers" in CA make much more than
> most
> > > small business owners.
> >
> > This is a really self-serving message, Bill. Business owners make the
> choice to
> > be business owners - no one else does that for them. Much of that
decision
> may
> > have nothing to do with making the big bucks.
> >
> > BTW, I DO try to support local small businesses, but only when they
offer
> me
> > something back, like convenience, specialized service, or even something
> as
> > simple as taking the time to know my name. We have a local pet store in
> town
> > where I buy all my pet supplies. The guy treats me right, greets me by
> name,
> > talks to me about the weather, and gives great advice. We have a local
> sporting
> > goods store that I go to only when it's convenient for me because I've
> been
> > going there for 15 years and they still treat me with the same
> indifference as
> > the first day I walked in the door. There's a fly shop not too far from
my
> house
> > that I go to only infrequently because of the same reasons. Most of my
> purchases
> > are from a fly shop 1,000 miles from my door because they treat me like
a
> friend
> > and they show appreciation for my business.
> > --
> > TL,
> > Tim
> > http://css.sbcma.com/timj
> >
> >
>
>

Bill Kiene

October 20th, 2003, 04:48 AM

Good info John.

Funny to, they say small buiness employees a large part of the work force in
the US??????????????

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com

"John Lindsey" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Kiene" > wrote in message
> .com...
> > Hi All,
> <<Bill's experiences snipped for brevity>>
> In support of your thesis, the local bus service ran an ad on local TV
> channel where they proudly stated that their bus service was paid for by
all
> local businesses both in-store and home based at the rate of $6 per $1000
in
> receipts! What an exorbitant fee! I don't recall if it was based upon
> gross or net receipts but either way any fee laid on businesses by the bus
> company is highway robbery IMHO.
>
> Regardless of whether a fly shop is in a store front or in somebody's
> garage, nobody ever will ride the bus to buy any fly fishing tackle or
> materials. The audacity of these bureaucratic people that gleefully and
> adamantly brag is that their almost totally unused and seemingly always
> empty bus services were paid for by local businesses - not riders! The
> local barber is struggling. The lady who runs the local shoe repair laid
> off all her cobblers and is planning on closing. The appliance shop now
> mostly is a used repair facility and the TV store is now a repair facility
> struggling to survive.
>
> You're right Bill. The politicians are taxing small businesses to their
> death. And I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel, do you?.
>
> John
>
>

Bill Kiene

October 20th, 2003, 04:58 AM

OF,

Thanks for the interesting ideas.

I think the small designation shops that sell mostly stuff like leaders,
tippets, flies plus guiding will be OK if they have pleasant helpful people
working in them.

What is getting hard is stocking tons of high dollar SKUs like rods, reel,
waders and boots that can be purchased in way too many places now. This way
nobody sell much of it and it is not practical to stock. Automobiles like
Lexis, Mercedes and BMW are doing well because they have limited
distribution.

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com

"Oldfrat" > wrote in message
nk.net...

> You started an interesting thread, Bill.
>
> It looks like you are talking about three major problems.
>
> The first one comes from the government. Raising sales taxes and other
> policies that are pursued without care for the small business owner. You
> Californians have just sent a strong message about stuff like this and
your
> posting is another way of getting the message out. I hope you will
continue
> to be vocal and voting to get the politicians to do the right thing for
you.
>
> The second comes from the big box stores with their catalogs and Internet
> catalogs. The three big ones for fly fishing all do a terrific job on
> customer service. They have the advantage of being able to carry huge
> inventories over a broad range of products --something no local fly shop
can
> manage. So, how do you compete? Well, knowledge of the local waters is
> somthing the big boxes haven't figured out --yet. And, great as their
> service levels are, they still can't deal with us as personally as the
local
> fly shop can.
>
> I have one local fly shop where they treat me with less personalized
service
> than Cabela's does. They got three tries and now get my business only in
an
> unusual emergency where I need something immediately and they are the only
> ones who have it in stock. I have another local fly shop where they greet
> me by name whenever I walk in the door and seem happy to answer questions
> and offer advice. I give them all of my business for stuff that they have
> and the catalogs have. It is immensely valuable to me to have this advice
> available nearby and I value the relationship. I feel I have a vested
> interest in keeping them profitable and in business.
>
> An idea for you here is that I had to figure out for myself that their
> prices were often the same as the catalogs --sometimes better when you put
> in both the sales tax and shipping costs. Wonder if local fly shops
should
> do more to promote this.... posting signs that compare their total prices
to
> those of the big three? Or maybe posting a sign saying that ,on products
in
> a specific range of categories, you will match or beat the total prices of
> the big three in their normal (non-sale) catalogs?
>
> The third problem has to do with your potential customers. Some are just
> plain jerks. Anybody who would walk into a fly shop, use up your time to
> get demos, and then waltz out the door telling you that they plan to buy
> from a catalog to save on the sales tax is a jerk. They ought to be told
> that they are welcome back any time, but not to ask for any assistance
other
> than the sales transaction! The customers who do this on the sly are
> something else. They may be people who are on a tight budget, worried
that
> their job is about to be shipped offshore, or unemployed. Heck, they may
> even be small business owners who are feeling the same pinch you are. I
> suspect the anwer there is the same as for problem one. We'll all have
more
> money to spend at local shops when we all have secure jobs that are based
> here in our country.
>
>
> "Bill Kiene" > wrote in message
> .com...
> > Tim,
> >
> > I agree with you completely and I guess if you slowed down and re-read
my
> > post you would see we are saying about the same thing.
> >
> > You are doing the right thing. I like your style. I wish more people
> shopped
> > like you do.
> >
> > We have people come in and spend a half hour with one of my staff trying
> on
> > every wader and boot we have in stock and then tell my sale help they
are
> > ordering it out of state to merely save the sales tax.(7.5%) We 90% of
all
> > the fly shops are closed in about 5 to 10 years, that person can't abuse
> us
> > any more.
> >
> > If someone doesn't treat you right don't support them because they don't
> > belong in a small business.
> >
> > Your friend in the pet shop should be around for a long time because he
> does
> > understand how things are suppose to be.
> >
> > Part of my point is to make sure no one thinks quitting that government
> job
> > and starting a small business in CA is going to be a good idea unless
it
> is
> > out of his or her home with no employees.
> >
> > My prediction is in about ten years in the US there will only be ultra
> small
> > business like out of a home or extremely large businesses like Costco
and
> > Wal-Mart.
> >
> > Also, I am not complaining, just observing after 40 years of retailing.
> >
> > --
> > Bill Kiene
> >
> > Kiene's Fly Shop
> > Sacramento, CA
> > www.kiene.com
> >
> > "Tim J." > wrote in message
> > news:3ifkb.586585$cF.256421@rwcrnsc53...
> > >
> > > "Bill Kiene" wrote...
> > > >
> > > > I have had my own small business in California for about 30 years.
In
> > the US
> > > > and particularly California, small businesses are threatened more
now
> > than
> > > > ever. Many are closing down because they just can't make things
> > profitable
> > > > any more with constantly rising overheads like insurances, taxes and
> > > > benefits. Even is a good economy things will be tough for
small/medium
> > size
> > > > businesses.
> > > >
> > > > In the future in the US many will need to have a very small business
> > with no
> > > > employees right out of their home so there is almost no overhead.
The
> > other
> > > > businesses will all have to be very large to compete by merging
> > constantly.
> > > > Businesses will have to be extremely small and efficient or
extremely
> > large
> > > > and efficient to compete in today's world economy.
> > > >
> > > > Most "mom & pop" stores like mine will never survive in today's
> market.
> > I am
> > > > only still here in business because I have been in business for a
long
> > time
> > > > and have not debt service.
> > > >
> > > > If you find a small business of any kind that really does a good job
> for
> > > > you, I would try to support and promote them as much as possible so
> they
> > can
> > > > survive these times.
> > > >
> > > > Most "state workers" and "school teachers" in CA make much more than
> > most
> > > > small business owners.
> > >
> > > This is a really self-serving message, Bill. Business owners make the
> > choice to
> > > be business owners - no one else does that for them. Much of that
> decision
> > may
> > > have nothing to do with making the big bucks.
> > >
> > > BTW, I DO try to support local small businesses, but only when they
> offer
> > me
> > > something back, like convenience, specialized service, or even
something
> > as
> > > simple as taking the time to know my name. We have a local pet store
in
> > town
> > > where I buy all my pet supplies. The guy treats me right, greets me by
> > name,
> > > talks to me about the weather, and gives great advice. We have a local
> > sporting
> > > goods store that I go to only when it's convenient for me because I've
> > been
> > > going there for 15 years and they still treat me with the same
> > indifference as
> > > the first day I walked in the door. There's a fly shop not too far
from
> my
> > house
> > > that I go to only infrequently because of the same reasons. Most of my
> > purchases
> > > are from a fly shop 1,000 miles from my door because they treat me
like
> a
> > friend
> > > and they show appreciation for my business.
> > > --
> > > TL,
> > > Tim
> > > http://css.sbcma.com/timj
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>

David Snedeker

October 20th, 2003, 11:50 AM

Bill

With all respect for your opinions, and those of some of the other
responders . . . its all a hell of a lot more complicated than you say. On
taxes and the Arnold mentality . . . give it a rest guys: Californians have
for years fostered violation of every labor law and immigration law on the
books to get other people to work. Most urban White Californians of even
middle-class means have cheap immigrant labor to do things that normal
parents and homeowners in other parts of the country do for themselves.
Enforcement of even federal labor laws is a joke. In many places, both urban
and rural there is no effective minimum wage. Californian friends visiting
the Northwest have expressed surprise to see Caucasians doing manual work.
A lot of birds are coming home to roost and I personally think that we are
likely to hear a lot of BS , both left and right, because people are still
in denial as to the mess that state is in. Much of the problem can be summed
with the old truism. . . "There is no free lunch," as Arnold is about to
learn.

"Woe is small business" is older than Babbitt (Sinclare Lewis?) and as often
misreported as to fit Mark Twain's comments about the reporting of his
death. I too was a small business for years and there are amazing
advantages and notorious disadvantages of being in business. But one thing
was always a constant . . . change and competition. Frankly, as a
"progressive middle of the roader" I always get a chuckle when nominally
conservative folk whine about competition.

So as to avoid being solely a malefactor in this love in, I'll offer a
couple of suggestions to small business flyshop owners in general. For what
its worth . . .

1. Learn to serve women customers. ALL the women flyfishers I know say that
they are ignored and treated condecendingly in the shops most of the time.
2. Maintain a real, low cost, entry level package. MOST newbies say they are
made to feel like cheap fools, and subject to creepy upgrade pitches when
they try to buy their initial kit.
3. Turn off Rush in the front and the back of the store. Customers might be
uncomfortable in a store playing racist and fascist talk radio shows hosted
by drugged out screamers. (DUHHH?)
4. Ditto with petitions blaming Native Americans for whatever, taped to the
front counter.
5. Focus on the "convenience" part of the market. Locate shops closer to
fishing areas and routes to same.
6. Keep overhead and rent low. Do your own books, learn the nitty-gritty of
business, keep professional service costs minimal, master your own computer,
ditto on inventory.
7. Consider owning your own modest location. Have more equity in your shop
than your home. Rent doesn't build equity. With real estate at least you
have an asset and the possibility of something at retirement.
8. Focus on profit, not on volume.
9. If it stops making money, get out, shut it down or sell it quick.
10. Work less/fish more, if you are not fishing as much as you like, what is
the point? Most small fly shop owners are intelligent enough to make a good
living working for someone else without killing themselves, and without the
aggravation of a barely floating business. Life is short.

Dave
Who mostly buys from the shops.

Tom Gibson

October 20th, 2003, 03:50 PM

"David Snedeker" > wrote...
> With all respect for your opinions, and those of some of the other
> responders . . . its all a hell of a lot more complicated than you say. On
> taxes and the Arnold mentality . . . give it a rest guys: Californians have
> for years fostered violation of every labor law and immigration law on the
> books to get other people to work. Most urban White Californians of even
> middle-class means have cheap immigrant labor to do things that normal
> parents and homeowners in other parts of the country do for themselves.
> Enforcement of even federal labor laws is a joke. In many places, both urban
> and rural there is no effective minimum wage. Californian friends visiting
> the Northwest have expressed surprise to see Caucasians doing manual work.
> A lot of birds are coming home to roost and I personally think that we are
> likely to hear a lot of BS , both left and right, because people are still
> in denial as to the mess that state is in. Much of the problem can be summed
> with the old truism. . . "There is no free lunch," as Arnold is about to
> learn.

Are you saying that the lack of immigration/labor laws are
contributing directly to the woes of small business owners in CA?
Seems to me that the "urban White Californians" you refer to are the
same folks benefitting from the cheap labor, illegally or otherwise.
While I don't disagree with what you've stated, I fail to see the
connection to the problems faced by small business.

> "Woe is small business" is older than Babbitt (Sinclare Lewis?) and as often
> misreported as to fit Mark Twain's comments about the reporting of his
> death. I too was a small business for years and there are amazing
> advantages and notorious disadvantages of being in business. But one thing
> was always a constant . . . change and competition. Frankly, as a
> "progressive middle of the roader" I always get a chuckle when nominally
> conservative folk whine about competition.

Most small businesses fail in the first two years. Of the ones who
'succeed', few small biz owners ever get 'rich'. OTOH, if 'rich' is
the goal, working for someone else is an even less likely path.

> So as to avoid being solely a malefactor in this love in, I'll offer a
> couple of suggestions to small business flyshop owners in general. For what
> its worth . . .
>
> 1. Learn to serve women customers. ALL the women flyfishers I know say that
> they are ignored and treated condecendingly in the shops most of the time.
> 2. Maintain a real, low cost, entry level package. MOST newbies say they are
> made to feel like cheap fools, and subject to creepy upgrade pitches when
> they try to buy their initial kit.
> 3. Turn off Rush in the front and the back of the store. Customers might be
> uncomfortable in a store playing racist and fascist talk radio shows hosted
> by drugged out screamers. (DUHHH?)
> 4. Ditto with petitions blaming Native Americans for whatever, taped to the
> front counter.
> 5. Focus on the "convenience" part of the market. Locate shops closer to
> fishing areas and routes to same.
> 6. Keep overhead and rent low. Do your own books, learn the nitty-gritty of
> business, keep professional service costs minimal, master your own computer,
> ditto on inventory.
> 7. Consider owning your own modest location. Have more equity in your shop
> than your home. Rent doesn't build equity. With real estate at least you
> have an asset and the possibility of something at retirement.
> 8. Focus on profit, not on volume.
> 9. If it stops making money, get out, shut it down or sell it quick.
> 10. Work less/fish more, if you are not fishing as much as you like, what is
> the point? Most small fly shop owners are intelligent enough to make a good
> living working for someone else without killing themselves, and without the
> aggravation of a barely floating business. Life is short.

An excellent list. IMO, #3 applies to more than just Rush
Limbaugh--I'd rather hear Rush the "drugged out screamer" than a sober
fire & brimstone evangelist; others may be just as offended by NPR or
Top 40 radio. #8 should be in ALL CAPS.

Tom G
small business employee

John Lindsey

October 21st, 2003, 05:20 AM

"rw" > wrote in message
. ..
> John Lindsey wrote:
> >
> > Regardless of whether a fly shop is in a store front or in somebody's
> > garage, nobody ever will ride the bus to buy any fly fishing tackle or
> > materials.

And RW responded:

> I sure did before I was 16 years old. I recall vividly taking the bus to
> downtown Baltimore to visit the best tackle shop in town.

And how many decades ago was that? Few people will take a bus to shop at a
fly shop today. But the bus was just one example of add-on taxes
governmental agencies are adding on to small and large businesses. They are
forming various special funding districts to add on taxes to property
owners.

One that bugs me is metropolitan "lighting" districts. They "reduce" crime
so light poles in city/county/state parking lots/parks/open areas etc. all
add on to taxes which do not help fly shops. OK, OK maybe the 16 year old
taking a bus to fly tying class will be helped LOL. But most of the
"lighting" districts seem to be in the newer or remodeled non-commercial
areas. These so called districts seem to be under the radar of most people
and are so low by themselves to not become a big taxpayers issue. I know of
one "lighting "district in a nearby city that funded a bus terminal
renovation that made all busses come together under lights but no one rode
them anyway! Go figure! The old terminal worked just fine.

Good luck!
John

October 21st, 2003, 07:18 AM

John Lindsey wrote:
>
> ...... I know of
> one "lighting "district in a nearby city that funded a bus terminal
> renovation that made all busses come together under lights but no one rode
> them anyway! Go figure! The old terminal worked just fine.

You know the old terminal worked just fine 'cause you used it, or 'cause
you figured it was good enough for those people who had to?

JR

Scott Seidman

October 21st, 2003, 03:45 PM

rw > wrote in news:3f95448d$0$186
:

> John Lindsey wrote:
>> "rw" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>>John Lindsey wrote:
>>>
>>>>Regardless of whether a fly shop is in a store front or in somebody's
>>>>garage, nobody ever will ride the bus to buy any fly fishing tackle or
>>>>materials.
>>
>>
>> And RW responded:
>>
>>
>>>I sure did before I was 16 years old. I recall vividly taking the bus to
>>>downtown Baltimore to visit the best tackle shop in town.
>>
>>
>> And how many decades ago was that?
>
> A bit more than four. I also remember people getting on the bus with
> shotguns on Loch Raven Boulevard in Baltimore to go bird hunting just
> past the city line. What are the chances of that happening today?
>

People in B'more get on busses with guns all the time. You just don't see
'em.

Scott

October 21st, 2003, 04:36 PM

John Lindsey wrote:
> "rw" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>John Lindsey wrote:
>>
>>>Regardless of whether a fly shop is in a store front or in somebody's
>>>garage, nobody ever will ride the bus to buy any fly fishing tackle or
>>>materials.
>
>
> And RW responded:
>
>
>>I sure did before I was 16 years old. I recall vividly taking the bus to
>>downtown Baltimore to visit the best tackle shop in town.
>
>
> And how many decades ago was that?

A bit more than four. I also remember people getting on the bus with
shotguns on Loch Raven Boulevard in Baltimore to go bird hunting just
past the city line. What are the chances of that happening today?

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Francis Reid

October 21st, 2003, 04:42 PM

> > A bit more than four. I also remember people getting on the bus with
> > shotguns on Loch Raven Boulevard in Baltimore to go bird hunting just
> > past the city line. What are the chances of that happening today?
> >
>
> People in B'more get on busses with guns all the time. You just don't see
> 'em.

Sorry to disabuse you, but, yeh ya do. Last year, watched a guy field
strip a revolver in the back seat. Don't ride Bal'more buses anymore.
Frank

October 21st, 2003, 05:52 PM

Francis Reid wrote:
>>>A bit more than four. I also remember people getting on the bus with
>>>shotguns on Loch Raven Boulevard in Baltimore to go bird hunting just
>>>past the city line. What are the chances of that happening today?
>>>
>>
>>People in B'more get on busses with guns all the time. You just don't see
>>'em.
>
>
> Sorry to disabuse you, but, yeh ya do. Last year, watched a guy field
> strip a revolver in the back seat. Don't ride Bal'more buses anymore.
> Frank

They ain't going bird hunting with Mac-10s and Glocks.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

David Snedeker

October 21st, 2003, 06:25 PM

Tom Gibson wrote in message
>...
>Are you saying that the lack of immigration/labor laws are
>contributing directly to the woes of small business owners in CA?
>Seems to me that the "urban White Californians" you refer to are the
>same folks benefitting from the cheap labor, illegally or otherwise.
>While I don't disagree with what you've stated, I fail to see the
>connection to the problems faced by small business.

Taxes. Here is one much simplified illustration: CA's cheap agricultural
labor produces inexpensive food that consumers and the rest of the country
appreciates, thank you. But CA State gets the expensive social etc costs of
education, health care etc for these folk. So on a net,net,net basis CA
sells one of its primary export products cheap, and buys . . . high. Result
.. . . (you fill in the blank).

Cheap immigrant labor wants the same things for its kids . . . a future,
health care, citizenship, freedom etc. as everybody else. Consequently, a
constant re-supply at the bottom is needed to replace immigrants who work
hard and move on to better things. Result . . . employers of cheap labor get
the initial benifits, while society gets the costs of bringing up the living
standards/education/health of immigrants, and someone has to pay the bills.
Its a race to the bottom. And at the bottom, labor conditions, unionization
and wages stay low, de-facto slavery florishes etc.

Corporations can avoid and shift the costs of this spiral: small business
cannot- since they are paying for the game, they have to play for game- hire
cheap and "under the table" labor, or pay little/no benies). Without a
rational immigration policy its a death spiral.

>Most small businesses fail in the first two years. Of the ones who
>'succeed', few small biz owners ever get 'rich'. OTOH, if 'rich' is
>the goal, working for someone else is an even less likely path.

Sorry, but MOST of the millionares in the US ARE "small business" owners,
living non-flashy lifestyles. And most of the employees who BECOME
millionaires are sales people.

>An excellent list. IMO, #3 applies to more than just Rush
>Limbaugh--I'd rather hear Rush the "drugged out screamer" than a sober
>fire & brimstone evangelist; others may be just as offended by NPR or
>Top 40 radio. #8 should be in ALL CAPS.

Thanks for the compliment but as much as evangelists give me a gag reaction,
I retain my belief that they, top 40, and NPR are at least marginally less
offensive than fascist/racist radio fueled by Hillbilly heroin.

Dave

Jonathan Cook

October 21st, 2003, 07:30 PM

"David Snedeker" > wrote in message >...

> 8. Focus on profit, not on volume.
> 9. If it stops making money, get out, shut it down or sell it quick.
> 10. Work less/fish more, if you are not fishing as much as you like, what is
> the point? Most small fly shop owners are intelligent enough to make a good
> living working for someone else without killing themselves, and without the
> aggravation of a barely floating business. Life is short.

Dave, I have to disagree at this point. I think you're looking at it
from the wrong viewpoint -- perhaps that of someone starting a small
business hoping to turn it into a big business, or something like that.
A fly shop is a small business destined to be a small business. I'd
hope someone gets into the flyshop business just hoping to do what
they love and make a modest living at it.

Life on earth IS short. All of us who must work for a living WILL
spend more time working than fishing. What's better, enjoying what
you do with most of your time and fishing occasionally, or hating
what you do with most of your time, but fishing more often? I'd
take the former in a blink. And those who've been lucky enough to
garner both ought to just be thankful their life worked out that
way. A million things could have prevented it.

I can imagine 1,000 scenarios of why a flyshop owner would choose
to remain with the shop rather than take a job that might give them
more fishing time. The beaming customer who tells them how they
slayed 'em on the pattern you recommended. The picture of the kid
with the 18" bow under the glass on your counter. Etc. I can see
why they would stick out the hard times rather than getting out
quick at the first sign of profitless-ness. Life IS short.

Jon.

George Cleveland

October 21st, 2003, 08:02 PM

David Snedeker

October 21st, 2003, 08:31 PM

Jonathan Cook wrote in message ...
>"David Snedeker" > wrote in message
>...
>
>Dave, I have to disagree at this point. I think you're looking at it
>from the wrong viewpoint -- perhaps that of someone starting a small
>business hoping to turn it into a big business, or something like that.
>A fly shop is a small business destined to be a small business. I'd
>hope someone gets into the flyshop business just hoping to do what
>they love and make a modest living at it.

Maybe so Jon, however as a spent labor consultant/economist I learned
quickly for myself and my clients that no one is helped in the long run by a
business that bleeds honest owners into bankruptcy, cannot pay its employees
family wages and benefits, and cannot/or does not contribute to the tax base
that pays for public services. Profit and investment are necessary.

Dave

Peter Charles

October 21st, 2003, 11:23 PM

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:42:11 GMT, "Bill Kiene" >
wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>I have had my own small business in California for about 30 years. In the US
>and particularly California, small businesses are threatened more now than
>ever. Many are closing down because they just can't make things profitable
>any more with constantly rising overheads like insurances, taxes and
>benefits. Even is a good economy things will be tough for small/medium size
>businesses.
>
>In the future in the US many will need to have a very small business with no
>employees right out of their home so there is almost no overhead. The other
>businesses will all have to be very large to compete by merging constantly.
>Businesses will have to be extremely small and efficient or extremely large
>and efficient to compete in today's world economy.
>
>Most "mom & pop" stores like mine will never survive in today's market. I am
>only still here in business because I have been in business for a long time
>and have not debt service.
>
>If you find a small business of any kind that really does a good job for
>you, I would try to support and promote them as much as possible so they can
>survive these times.
>
>Most "state workers" and "school teachers" in CA make much more than most
>small business owners.
>
>--
>Bill Kiene
>
>Kiene's Fly Shop
>Sacramento, CA
>www.kiene.com

Bill

In 1972, I joined the Bank of Montreal and started a 30+ year career
in banking. The complaints you make now were the same ones made over
30 years ago. This isn't new. Thirty years ago it was shopping
malls, today, it's the big online stores and box stores. I've been
working for the same bank now for 26 years. It serves the small
business market in Canada (and yes, there's not much difference
between the Canadian and the American small business markets). We're
a crown corporation, IOW, a corporation owned wholly by the
government. We have a mandate to make money. We borrow money form
the bond markets, lend to small businesses at a slightly higher rate
and we live off the difference. We don't use tax money, in fact we've
been making a profit and been paying a dividend to the taxpayer for
years, at times as high as $50 million CAD.

We're doing very well and have been for years. If the small business
sector was as bad as you say, we'd be in serious trouble. We're not.
Retailing, restaurants, and hospitality are tough industries however
that isn't the end of the small business spectrum. Many of the
problems of small business can be traced to the owner(s) failing to
adapt to changing conditions. Regarding our industry, Dave mentions
the failure to serve women well. Failing to use the Internet to full
advantage, is another.

Whenever I hear this sort of complaint, I always think of the Duke of
Wellington's maxim, "There's no such thing as bad soldiers, only bad
generals." The customers and the employees aren't the problem.

Peter

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[email protected]

October 22nd, 2003, 03:02 AM

On 21 Oct 2003 17:25:35 GMT, "David Snedeker"
> wrote:

> while society gets the costs of bringing up the living
>standards/education/health of immigrants, and someone has to pay the bills.

As I said to our misogynist prejudiced dork (not that you're one,
just that remembering him makes me want to slam him in print) security
guard when he was going on about an immigrant family walking by to the
ER one night, "Those kids are going to be supporting me on social
security when they grow up and get good jobs."

Most of the Hispanics here in MN who actually live here have moved on
up a class or three. A lot of families have been here for enough
generations that even my parents recognized some of the surnames. The
Asians (If I were an Asian refugee and had a choice, it'd not have
been MN, though it's been explained to me why many did when given the
choice) immigrants are frequently working hard at it, as are many of
the Mid Easterners and Somalians.
--

rbc:vixen,Minnow Goddess,Willow Watcher,and all that sort of thing.
Often taunted by trout.
Only a fool would refuse to believe in luck. Only a damn fool would rely on it.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli

David Snedeker

October 22nd, 2003, 05:03 AM

wrote in message ...
>On 21 Oct 2003 17:25:35 GMT, "David Snedeker"
> wrote:
>
>> while society gets the costs of bringing up the living
>>standards/education/health of immigrants, and someone has to pay the
bills.
>
>As I said to our misogynist prejudiced dork (not that you're one,
>just that remembering him makes me want to slam him in print) security
>guard when he was going on about an immigrant family walking by to the
>ER one night, "Those kids are going to be supporting me on social
>security when they grow up and get good jobs."
>
Nice thought. For myself I've never understood the chain of logic that
results in that conclusion. The process that creates "good jobs" includes
investment, high valued labor, rich resources, creativity, and innovation.
Immigrants that bring the above contribute to the creation of "good jobs."

Immigrants that are just hard working bodies, however much they may bring a
twinge of admiration for their adventurous sprit and pluck, just slice the
pie smaller and smaller. Hard working bodies are not particularly in short
supply in the world today. Better have more than social security.

Dave

Wolfgang

October 22nd, 2003, 11:00 AM

"David Snedeker" > wrote in message
...
>
> wrote in message ...
> >On 21 Oct 2003 17:25:35 GMT, "David Snedeker"
> > wrote:
> >
> >> while society gets the costs of bringing up the living
> >>standards/education/health of immigrants, and someone has to pay the
> bills.
> >
> >As I said to our misogynist prejudiced dork (not that you're one,
> >just that remembering him makes me want to slam him in print) security
> >guard when he was going on about an immigrant family walking by to the
> >ER one night, "Those kids are going to be supporting me on social
> >security when they grow up and get good jobs."
> >
> Nice thought. For myself I've never understood the chain of logic that
> results in that conclusion. The process that creates "good jobs" includes
> investment, high valued labor, rich resources, creativity, and innovation.
> Immigrants that bring the above contribute to the creation of "good jobs."
>
> Immigrants that are just hard working bodies, however much they may bring
a
> twinge of admiration for their adventurous sprit and pluck, just slice the
> pie smaller and smaller. Hard working bodies are not particularly in short
> supply in the world today. Better have more than social security.

Good God, but you are dull-witted. An uneducated immigrant can be forgiven
for being short on facts, but leave it to an educated racist who has never
done an honest day's work in his life to torture those facts and twist them
into a grotesque rationalization that their own mothers wouldn't recognize.
It is true that there is no worldwide shortage of cheap labor. It is also
true that the exploitation of that cheap labor is the bedrock upon which the
burgeoning riches of many developing nations is beginning to be built,
while in others (like the U.S.) where they've been at it for a while, the
process is far from beginning. But there IS such a shortage here in the
U.S. and has been for decades. This, coupled with the corporate greed so
dear to the hearts of the vast majority of Americans, is precisely why so
many manufacturing jobs have been lost here. Without cheap immigrant labor
(and/or stolen water, not so incidentally) what happens to the California
economy? Go ahead, check your back issues of T.V. Guide........we'll wait.

Wolfgang

David Snedeker

October 22nd, 2003, 12:45 PM

Wolfgang wrote in message ...
>
>Good God, but you are dull-witted. SNIPPED standard drunken Cheesehead
rant.

Suggestion: If we ever meet, stay sober. And pretend you are normal, not a
kneejerk cheesehead lib know-nothing. And try to get out of Wisconsin more
often. Travel is educational.

"Without cheap immigrant labor
>(and/or stolen water, not so incidentally) what happens to the California
>economy? Go ahead, check your back issues of T.V. Guide........we'll wait.
>

Hmmmm, lets see, for a start . . .

Tighter ag labor market >>> rising wages & benefits offered to attract
resident labor
Rising wages offered >>> more people enter ag labor market, more get
benefits
Rising wages and benefits>>> rising living standards and more able to pay
for own education and healthcare
Ag product prices rise . . . some decline in demand in low end products,
cheap lettuce a bit less cheap
Rising ag production costs . . . more invested in labor saving equipment,
and upgrading labor's skills
Etc..

Controlling immigration right now would give California some breathing space
and the major beneficiaries would be the people already resident in that
market. Know a lot about California labor markets and practices do you? I
don't think so. Do many immigrants in Wisconsin live in other peoples
suburban garages? Do allot of people die crossing the Wisconsin deserts? How
many million illegals do you have in Wisconsin? Do you speak English at
work? Can you buy an indentured servant in Wisconsin? Just curious.

I'll compare my work ethic with your's anyday. And anyone who has observed
your posting behavior on this NG during working hours might wonder how that
meshes with the concept of an "honest work day".

Dave
Knee-jerk libs are almost as much of a pain in the ass as wingnuts on
hillbilly heroin

Wolfgang

October 22nd, 2003, 01:45 PM

"David Snedeker" > wrote in message
...
>
> Wolfgang wrote in message ...
> >
> >Good God, but you are dull-witted. SNIPPED standard drunken
Cheesehead
> rant.
>
> Suggestion: If we ever meet, stay sober. And pretend you are
normal, not a
> kneejerk cheesehead lib know-nothing. And try to get out of
Wisconsin more
> often. Travel is educational.
>
>
> "Without cheap immigrant labor
> >(and/or stolen water, not so incidentally) what happens to the
California
> >economy? Go ahead, check your back issues of T.V.
Guide........we'll wait.
> >
>
>
> Hmmmm, lets see, for a start . . .
>
> Tighter ag labor market >>> rising wages & benefits offered to
attract
> resident labor
> Rising wages offered >>> more people enter ag labor market, more get
> benefits
> Rising wages and benefits>>> rising living standards and more able
to pay
> for own education and healthcare
> Ag product prices rise . . . some decline in demand in low end
products,
> cheap lettuce a bit less cheap
> Rising ag production costs . . . more invested in labor saving
equipment,
> and upgrading labor's skills
> Etc..
>
> Controlling immigration right now would give California some
breathing space
> and the major beneficiaries would be the people already resident in
that
> market. Know a lot about California labor markets and practices do
you? I
> don't think so. Do many immigrants in Wisconsin live in other
peoples
> suburban garages? Do allot of people die crossing the Wisconsin
deserts? How
> many million illegals do you have in Wisconsin? Do you speak English
at
> work? Can you buy an indentured servant in Wisconsin? Just curious.
>
> I'll compare my work ethic with your's anyday. And anyone who has
observed
> your posting behavior on this NG during working hours might wonder
how that
> meshes with the concept of an "honest work day".
>
> Dave
> Knee-jerk libs are almost as much of a pain in the ass as wingnuts
on
> hillbilly heroin

Good old T.V. Guide, ever the indispensable resource for the serious
scholar!

A brief note for our readers unfamiliar with the subtleties of the
English language: While it is undeniably true that Dave IS
screamingly funny, a close reading of his output reveals that he IS
serious.......hee, hee, hee.......um........well, o.k., maybe that
isn't funny. :(

Wolfgang
hee, hee, hee :)

Wolfgang

October 22nd, 2003, 04:22 PM

"Greg Pavlov" > wrote in message
...

> ....do it long enough and you need a new hip as well.

Bad news; he already needs glasses. :(

Wolfgang
still, it's his dick and his soap........

David Snedeker

October 22nd, 2003, 08:03 PM

Greg Pavlov wrote in message >...
>On 22 Oct 2003 04:03:46 GMT, "David Snedeker"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Immigrants that are just hard working bodies, however much they may bring
a
>>twinge of admiration for their adventurous sprit and pluck, ...
>
> "Adventurous spirit and pluck" sounds like a 19th
> century travel novel. "Desperate circumstances and
> sheer courage" would be much more accurate, in
> probably the majority of cases.

Sorry Greg but its just a little more complicated than your drama queen
words make it out to be. Most immigrants coming to the US are not in
"Desperate circumstances. " Most ARE adventurous and ambitious. And most
are reasonably honest, at least by their own lights. However there is also a
large criminal element among immigrants, often masked by claims of
"dissident" and "religious persecution" status particularly among those from
Europe, the Mid East and Asia Minor.

"Relocation of criminal enterprises to more favorable venues" would be more
accurate phrase for portions of major immigrant groups from the former
Soviet block. And . . . "flight from prosecution for war crimes in the
former Yugoslavia" has also been another source. Also ". . . extraction and
relocation of U.S. intelligence resources" is the accurate phrase for
thousands of others. There are thousands of legals whose criminal activities
have earned them deportation orders, and tens of thousands of others brought
here by the State Department and the CIA whose bloody past would turn your
stomach. Guess whose neighborhoods they are "resettled" in? Guess which
"refugee serving NGOs" are run by the CIA? "Ratlines" are still alive and
well.

And guess what? Both Seattle and Minneapolis are considered good places for
the government to send these "politicals" as they are called.

A real immigration policy would look at all the pros and cons and, based on
fact, not feel-good ideology, fix the problems in the current system.

Dave

David Snedeker

October 23rd, 2003, 07:06 PM

Greg Pavlov wrote in message >...
>On 22 Oct 2003 19:03:27 GMT, "David Snedeker"
> wrote:
> Oh, yeah, sitting in a locked truck trailer for 3 - 4 days, or
> trekking across a desert ducking vigilantes & sundry
> other bad guys, or floating across the Carribean on a
> homemade raft, are fine adventures. Heck, I hear that
> Orvis is starting an Immigrant Adventures Guided Tours
> Division so folks like us can get a taste of the fun :.-)
>(all things considered I think that my Hollywood fantasies
> are more real than yours...)

Greg
Surely a range of experiences and circumstances is needed to accurately
describe the recent immigrant experience in the US. I thought I'd more than
called attention to the low end in my prior posts to Wolfjerk and yourself.
Indentured servitude exists in the US as the recent National Geographic
article makes plain. And bodies tumble out of neglected shipping containers
on the West Coast occasionally, and dozens die crossing the Southwestern
deserts. These are experiences that make the paper.

However, as anyone who has any familiarity with the border, South
Florida/NC/LA/NYC etc, or the restaurant or cleaning business, or row ag, or
meat packing, or high tech assembly etc etc AND who is not afraid to talk to
people knows, the RANGE, SCALE and SCOPE of immigrant experiences is much
broader than you seem willing to acknowledge. Maybe if you saw with your own
eyes scenes such as . . .

Fresh border crossers moving in 2s and 3s thru San Diego County suburban
streets, toward pickup points.

The kitchen break room/smoking doorway of any major city big restaurant.

A bus stop in a major Ag city (Fresno, Yakima, Corvallis, Bakersfield
etc) in Florida, the Central Valley etc, taking laughing, flush
workers home, for the holidays or at the end or picking season.

A shift change at a meat packing, chicken processing etc plant anywhere
in the country.

The parking lot exit at any major high tech facility in the US.

The parking lot of a major Mexican police facility near the border . . .
with a smattering of (freshly stolen?)SUVs still bearing California plates.
.. . driven home by cops at shift's end.

A "Piasano" program counter at a major Mexican airport, welcoming
returning workers from the US,and offering info and services to
reduce extortion of returning workers.

The mid morning buses moving domestics from the close-in Maryland burbs
to the Virginia burbs.

The floating forged document market on Alvarado Street in LA.

Cuatla in Jalisco at Christmas, and the "Parade" of new SUV earned in
the US.

Maybe if you see and talk to some of the people in these and other similar
venues, you might be less confident that your noble description covers the
whole of the immigrant experience.

Dave
"Will you be having fries with your Crow, Secretary Rumsfeld?"
Ideology sucks

David Snedeker

October 23rd, 2003, 08:00 PM

Greg Pavlov wrote in message >...
SNIP

Point taken.
And with that I'm EOT.
I suspect that we would in the end agree on more than a few points and in
any case the sun is out here in the Puget Sound and I'm gonna see if I can
find an odd Silver, or paint or something.
Hasta manana, baby.

Dave

David Snedeker

October 24th, 2003, 04:20 AM

Greg Pavlov wrote in message >...
>On 23 Oct 2003 19:00:34 GMT, "David Snedeker"
> wrote:
>
> I would love to live Somewhere Out There, preferably
> Vancouver.

Vancouver BC, or Vancouver, WA?

Dave

David Snedeker

October 24th, 2003, 05:22 AM

Greg Pavlov wrote in message >...
>On 24 Oct 2003 03:20:06 GMT, "David Snedeker"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Greg Pavlov wrote in message >...
>>>On 23 Oct 2003 19:00:34 GMT, "David Snedeker"
> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would love to live Somewhere Out There, preferably
>>> Vancouver.
>>
>>Vancouver BC, or Vancouver, WA?
>>
>
> BC: I didn't know there was a WA version.

WA version lies accross bridge over Columbia from Portland, OR.. No income
tax in WA: No sales tax in OR. North on I-5 are the Lewis, Kalama, and the
Chehelis, all major Steelhead/Salmon rivers. Out the river road lies the
coast, Willapa Bay, numerous rivers, the Columbia Bar, off shore etc.

Vancouver, BC is on the lower BC mainland. Big, beautiful, hip,
international city. two words: "Horsefly River" . . . google it.

Victoria, would be my choise. More sun, rarely snows, spectacular setting,
provincial capitol, art scene, the whole incredible island to explore etc..

Dave

Bob Patton

October 24th, 2003, 06:21 AM

"David Snedeker" > wrote in message
...
>
> >>
> >>Vancouver BC, or Vancouver, WA?
> >>
> >
> > BC: I didn't know there was a WA version.
>
> WA version lies accross bridge over Columbia from Portland, OR.. No income
> tax in WA: No sales tax in OR. North on I-5 are the Lewis, Kalama, and the
> Chehelis, all major Steelhead/Salmon rivers. Out the river road lies the
> coast, Willapa Bay, numerous rivers, the Columbia Bar, off shore etc.
>
> Vancouver, BC is on the lower BC mainland. Big, beautiful, hip,
> international city. two words: "Horsefly River" . . . google it.
>
> Victoria, would be my choise. More sun, rarely snows, spectacular setting,
> provincial capitol, art scene, the whole incredible island to explore
etc..
>
> Dave
>

I was in Seattle recently and drove up to Point Roberts WA. Drive through
Canada to get to this little corner of the USA and the western end of the
US-Canada border. Spectacular view across Straits of Georgia to Vancouver
Island, and on the south is a good view of Mt Baker. Seems almost like a
weekend suburb of Vancouver.
Bob

Francis Reid

October 24th, 2003, 12:40 PM

> Victoria, would be my choise. More sun, rarely snows, spectacular setting,
> provincial capitol, art scene, the whole incredible island to explore etc..
>
> Dave

Go to Butchart Gardens on a Saturday in July. Best fireworks show I've
ever seen. All done to music in an awesome setting. The gardens was an
old portland cement quary overlooking the Straights of Juan DeFuca. The
gardens are the most beautiful I've ever visited, and with a
plant-hugging wife and 23 years of traveling the US and the world, I've
visited quite a few.
Frank

David Snedeker

October 24th, 2003, 09:45 PM

Francis Reid wrote in message >...
The
>gardens are the most beautiful I've ever visited, and with a
>plant-hugging wife and 23 years of traveling the US and the world, I've
>visited quite a few.
>Frank

Buchard Gardens are pretty neat. I think that in the Northwest the other
world class contenders are the Dr. Sun Yat Sen Chinese garden in Vancouver.
BC, the only full classical Chinese outside China, and . . .
the little known Ohme cliff-top garden just outside Wenatchee, WA,
Wenatchee is on the sunny Eastside of the State, on the Columbia, with
several major coldwater tribs right close. A great place to bring a
non-fishing partner. "Little Bavaria", Levenworth just up the Wen. canyon to
the West, and ski area up another canyon. Great bass fishing, bird and duck
hunting to the East at Moses Lake.

Dave

Jeff Marso

October 24th, 2003, 09:59 PM

David Snedeker wrote:
> Greg Pavlov wrote in message >...
>
>>On 24 Oct 2003 03:20:06 GMT, "David Snedeker"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Greg Pavlov wrote in message >...
>>>
>>>>On 23 Oct 2003 19:00:34 GMT, "David Snedeker"
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I would love to live Somewhere Out There, preferably
>>>>Vancouver.
>>>
>>>Vancouver BC, or Vancouver, WA?
>>>
>>
>>BC: I didn't know there was a WA version.
>
>
> WA version lies accross bridge over Columbia from Portland, OR.. No income
> tax in WA: No sales tax in OR. North on I-5 are the Lewis, Kalama, and the
> Chehelis, all major Steelhead/Salmon rivers. Out the river road lies the
> coast, Willapa Bay, numerous rivers, the Columbia Bar, off shore etc.
>
> Vancouver, BC is on the lower BC mainland. Big, beautiful, hip,
> international city. two words: "Horsefly River" . . . google it.
>
> Victoria, would be my choise. More sun, rarely snows, spectacular setting,
> provincial capitol, art scene, the whole incredible island to explore etc..
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>

Don't listen to him Greg. There's nothing to do here in Vancouver, WA.
and no fishing anywhere nearby. The "rivers" he mentioned don't exist.
Neither do the Sandy, Clackamas, Willamette, Deschutes, Washougal, Wind,
Cowlitz or Klickitat. It always rains here and the only thing that grows
are mushrooms. Yeah... that's it. Now that I remember it right that's
exactly the way it is here....

[email protected]

October 25th, 2003, 08:08 PM

On 22 Oct 2003 04:03:46 GMT, "David Snedeker"
> wrote:

>Nice thought. For myself I've never understood the chain of logic that
>results in that conclusion. The process that creates "good jobs" includes
>investment, high valued labor, rich resources, creativity, and innovation.
>Immigrants that bring the above contribute to the creation of "good jobs."
>
>Immigrants that are just hard working bodies, however much they may bring a
>twinge of admiration for their adventurous sprit and pluck, just slice the
>pie smaller and smaller. Hard working bodies are not particularly in short
>supply in the world today. Better have more than social security.

The immigrants themselves can't go far above labour for hire, unless
they have family here that's already got their restaurant or store up
and working. Then they're blended into the community. Their kids
start working in the extended family business and get an education
that'll get them out of the kitchen or serving areas or hand assembly
line and into better jobs. It's the kids I'm counting on. And their
kids.

Same story as previous waves of immigrants that've come to MN.
YMMV in other parts of the country. But I can look down on the river
flats in St. Paul and go through the waves of who had to live there
from stories told by my parents and grandparents and mourn that the
place has been cleared out for manufacturing. A whole bunch of tacky
housing and local history gone. The Hispanics were the last wave to
live there. The ones on higher ground still do, having made pretty
successful lives for themselves. The one restaurant that had been
down there that gringos like my parents were almost willing to go to
has become very successful, moved up, spread out tentacles, inspired
other restaurateurs and is now acceptable to even the most foreigner
phobic. The businesses are something else. There's no telling who
owns what any more unless you're big on connecting names and races.
The children and grandchildren of those who worked in the
slaughterhouses and fields are now living wherever they want to and
able to pay for the homes instead of renting.

But before them were the French, the Jewish, the Germans, and the
Irish, pretty much in that order. I'm willing to bet that the Asians,
who had to settle elsewhere, as they came after the renovation, will
do as well.

My grandmother, born in Germany, started as general kitchen and hotel
help in Iowa somewhere. My grandfather, at least second generation
Pennsylvania Dutch, was already on the lower orders of the railway
mail system when they married. They raised 6 kids, owned and ran a
lake side resort (grandma ran the resort while grandpa stayed with the
mail service and did some of the heavy stuff on off days) for some
years, supported the child who was crippled with rheumatoid arthritis
until he died in his 50s, wound up with a cabin of their own in
addition to the house in town. Their grandchildren are in, or have
retired from management at 3M, banking, military service, and various
other middle class sorts of jobs.

I see no reason not to expect much the same of the Asians and have
seen it among the Hispanics. CA is suffering from too much of a wave
of the new right now. I don't have a clue how they're going to deal
with it, but I have anecdotal evidence that education works.
--

rbc:vixen,Minnow Goddess,Willow Watcher,and all that sort of thing.
Often taunted by trout.
Only a fool would refuse to believe in luck. Only a damn fool would rely on it.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli