ROFF and making friends

[Roger Ohlund]

Hi all,

As all we see on ROFF are signatures and opinions (sometimes even pictures,
Dave's and rw's web sites). It is kind of nice to meet some of the people on
ROFF.
I've met Vaughan Hurry, Myron Buck, Osmo Jauhiainen, Stefan Rajert and Hans
Bock. I've also introduced a friend of mine to this newsgroup, Erik
Holmlund.
I've had dealings (read: help) from Wolfgang Siebeneich and Paul Morrison
aka RockTrout aka Bouncer, and I've helped Stan Gula with some fly pictures.
A sudden change of economics and rivermans post about "Dreaming of The
Perfect Year..." made me think that I'd like to participate in one of those
big US ROFFian claves.
The question is which one to choose? As far as I'm concerned the fishing
wouldn't be the big issue here. I've got some of the best fishing available
right at home. No, the issue is to meet with as many of you as possible, to
exchange stories about your fishing, ideas on techniques, fly patterns and
to be lied to over more than one glass of single malt ;-).
My written English may be sufficient to express my thoughts and all, but my
practice of speaking English is not by far enough, so there's another reason
to visit.

/ Roger
Daytime engineer
Lifetime fly fisherman
If you feel like it, visit http://www.imsoc.se/angler/ for info on fly
fishing in northern Sweden, Lapland,
or visit http://www.imsoc.se/ffgallery/ , the fly fishermen's gallery.

[Ken Fortenberry]

Roger Ohlund wrote:
>
> ... I'd like to participate in one of those
> big US ROFFian claves.
> The question is which one to choose? ...

I've never attended one, but if I had to pick one US 'Clave to
recommend it would be Penn's. A couple of the western guys usually
show up, some of the Cackalackians, some of the Massachusetts Mafia
and other various and assorted east coasters. The airport at State
College is fairly close to 'Clave Central and the neighborhood has
been invaded by roffians for several years running now so some of
the shock and awe has worn off. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Francis Reid]

> I'd like to participate in one of those
> big US ROFFian claves.
> The question is which one to choose?

Well, not to denigrate the western clave, but the Penns clave is
probably a bit larger. Many of us speak binary, so we can use that as a
intermediate language. The accommodations are from covered hammocks and
tents to nicely outfitted cabins (that are really just fully-furnished
houses for rent). Also, we've yet to have a heart attack when the final
bill came (sorry Dave S., just had to say it). We have awards, prizes,
a really nice fly shop, everything from little brook trout creeks to big
brown trout rivers (both the water and the trout are big), and all the
bad scotch you can steal from Seidman's tent. Heck, we even have
pickled asparagus. The eastern US may be a bit cheaper to get to.
Penns isn't as storied as some of those western rivers, but I've found
that people will write more about a trip involving serious depredations
(bears, mountain lions, strange rangers) than they will about a trip
where they just caught fish all day, ate fine meals and slept soundly
all night.
Frank Reid

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

"Roger Ohlund" > wrote in message
...
some snippage has occured...

>made me think that I'd like to participate in one of those
> big US ROFFian claves.

Dammit Roger! I had figured you for a much more intelligent european type
person, so much for my judgement calls?

Nevertheless, I too want to attend one of them big U.S. 'claves (that would
put you on par intellectually with me :~^( ). I was thinkin' of doin' a
western 'clave this comin' year, as I don't know if I will have the time
save by May to do the Penns. Whatever your decision may be, remember ya got
a free place to stay in NC, whenever and whatever you decide!

Op --I sure hope everyone I have made this same offer to doesn't show up on
the same day!--

> / Roger

[Roger Ohlund]

"Guyz-N-Flyz" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Roger Ohlund" > wrote in message
> ...
> some snippage has occured...
>
> >made me think that I'd like to participate in one of those
> > big US ROFFian claves.
>
> Dammit Roger! I had figured you for a much more intelligent european type
> person, so much for my judgement calls?

Well, what the hell. Being an intellectual person will get you nowhere
compared to your ability to swallov a large ammount of scotch. Or?

> Nevertheless, I too want to attend one of them big U.S. 'claves (that
would
> put you on par intellectually with me :~^( ). I was thinkin' of doin' a
> western 'clave this comin' year, as I don't know if I will have the time
> save by May to do the Penns. Whatever your decision may be, remember ya
got
> a free place to stay in NC, whenever and whatever you decide!

Nice offer Op, and really appreciated. Now, if you only would describe the
contents of your bar ;-).

> Op --I sure hope everyone I have made this same offer to doesn't show up
on
> the same day!--
>

So, Penns is the big one??

/ Roger

[Dave LaCourse]

Fortenberry writes:

>I've never attended one, but if I had to pick one US 'Clave to
>recommend it would be Penn's.

Good choice. It is by far the largest clave and as Ken says, it attracts folks
from all over the country, even a Canadian or two. If you flew into Boston I
could pick you up and drive you to Penns. If you wanted to camp, I am sure
there are enough folks willing to lend you the necessities. Or, you could
share a cabin with some of the North Cackalackians (who have been known to pack
some pretty nice single malt stuff).
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Lennie Richardson]

"Roger Ohlund" > wrote in message
...
>
> Nice offer Op, and really appreciated. Now, if you only would describe the
> contents of your bar ;-).

> / Roger
>
>

I can answer that: It's stocked with the nectar of the gods. A local
product, and a damn fine one at that. Certified lead free.

BTW, Roger, If you decide to come to an NC clave, I live near Charlotte
airport and would be glad to pick you up and carry you to the clave.

My bar, unfortunately, is stocked with home brewed ales. No single malts :(

[Roger Ohlund]

"Dave LaCourse" > wrote in message
...
> Fortenberry writes:
>
> >I've never attended one, but if I had to pick one US 'Clave to
> >recommend it would be Penn's.
>
> Good choice. It is by far the largest clave and as Ken says, it attracts
folks
> from all over the country, even a Canadian or two. If you flew into
Boston I
> could pick you up and drive you to Penns. If you wanted to camp, I am
sure
> there are enough folks willing to lend you the necessities. Or, you could
> share a cabin with some of the North Cackalackians (who have been known to
pack
> some pretty nice single malt stuff).
> Dave

Ok, what's the date of this clave?
Who's clave meister? And where's the best place to stay?

/Roger

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

..

"Roger Ohlund" > wrote in message
...
> Well, what the hell. Being an intellectual person will get you nowhere
> compared to your ability to swallov a large ammount of scotch. Or?

'SHINE by the light of the moon!

> Nice offer Op, and really appreciated. Now, if you only would describe the
> contents of your bar ;-).

You get your ass here and I'll not only stock the bar with whatever you so
desire, I'll even buy a bar to stock!

> So, Penns is the big one??

On the Right-Hand coast, I believe that would be the one. Unless the Pirate
holds a bigger shin-dig in Maine?

I must say tho, that the boyz down here, in NC, can throw a nice 'clave too.

Op --Also, I'm alwayz open to a two man 'clave on Upper Creek--
> / Roger
>
>

[Dave LaCourse]

Roger writes:

>Ok, what's the date of this clave?
>Who's clave meister? And where's the best place to stay?

Tom Littleton is the clavemeister. I believe the clave is in late May. Best
place to stay: The North Cackalakie Cabin. Jeff Miller usually tries to get
one right on the stream (Cherry Run cabin), but last year we had to use cabins
in town with a short drive to the stream. I don't know who is in charge of
cabin appropriations for the 2004 clave. Jeff?
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Charlie Choc]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:03:49 -0500, "Guyz-N-Flyz"
> wrote:

>Op --Also, I'm alwayz open to a two man 'clave on Upper Creek--

Just don't expect you to bring the firewood. <g>
--
Charlie...

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

"Charlie Choc" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:03:49 -0500, "Guyz-N-Flyz"
> > wrote:
>
> >Op --Also, I'm alwayz open to a two man 'clave on Upper Creek--
>
> Just don't expect you to bring the firewood. <g>
> --
> Charlie...

If you come up this *Summer*, I promise, this time, to have more fire wood
than you will ever use.

Op --can't buy a break--

[Mark Anderson]

"Guyz-N-Flyz" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Roger Ohlund" > wrote in message
> ...
> some snippage has occured...
> Op --I sure hope everyone I have made this same offer to doesn't show up
on
> the same day!--
>
Greetings:
'Ya know Op, if we all show up at the same time, we can drain your bar dry
almost instantly - then you'll get rid of us that much sooner! :-)

Cheers,
-Mark
(Who is still in possession of his kind e-mail with "the offer.")

[Roger Ohlund]

"Dave LaCourse" > wrote in message
...
> Roger writes:
>
> >Ok, what's the date of this clave?
> >Who's clave meister? And where's the best place to stay?
>
> Tom Littleton is the clavemeister. I believe the clave is in late May.
Best
> place to stay: The North Cackalakie Cabin. Jeff Miller usually tries to
get
> one right on the stream (Cherry Run cabin), but last year we had to use
cabins
> in town with a short drive to the stream. I don't know who is in charge
of
> cabin appropriations for the 2004 clave. Jeff?
> Dave
>

Dave,

I will try to get to the US for the Penns clave.
God knows I can afford it, and if everything works out with the rest
of the family I will go there.
This Tom Littleton, how can I get in contact with him?
Is there any web site that I can find info on the accomodations, river and
permit cost?

/Roger
I'll start research on the travel arrangements.

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

"Mark Anderson" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings:
> 'Ya know Op, if we all show up at the same time, we can drain your bar
dry
> almost instantly - then you'll get rid of us that much sooner! :-)

Naw, I'd just go out and run up another credit card for my spirits!

>
> Cheers,
> -Mark
> (Who is still in possession of his kind e-mail with "the offer.")

Alwayz valid at Opie's House of Horrors!

Op --I guess I probably should keep track of these things?--

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

"Roger Ohlund" > wrote in message
...
>
> I will try to get to the US for the Penns clave.
> God knows I can afford it, and if everything works out with the rest
> of the family I will go there.
> This Tom Littleton, how can I get in contact with him?
> Is there any web site that I can find info on the accomodations, river and
> permit cost?
>
> /Roger
> I'll start research on the travel arrangements.

I'm sure this Tom Littleton feller will be around shortly to answer all of
your ?s Roger. He's a very nice guy, btw.

Op --just don't mention smokin' or drinkin', as he is a tee-totaller!--

[Tom Littleton]

Roger asks of the Penn's Clave:

>Ok, what's the date of this clave?

May 16-22, or thereabouts in 2004
(folks have been known to invade the area
for as long as 10 days straight)

>Who's clave meister?

That might be me.....unless someone objects. At any rate, this loony gathering
was instigated by myself. At this stage, I merely let the now-experienced
ROFFians run amok as they see fit.

>And where's the best place to stay?

That would depend on your tastes, but a quick rundown of the selection would
include:
Clave Central(Hemlock Acres Campground
....in Coburn, PA). Camping via tents in a large meadow area with other clavers
offers a unique experience. Weather has been widely variable, pushing said
experience towards Woodstock, to offer a rough idea.
There are three cabins on the grounds as well, I know we can lock up at least
the two smallest, and may be able to reserve the third. They hold 2,4 and 6
persons, and are pretty basic shelter.

Off site--Millheim Hotel, about 5 miles from
the campground. Basic hotel room, cheap.

Feathered Hook Bed and Breakfast, in
Coburn. Guide service available, breakfast
each morning, close to camp. Can walk to the two best creeks. Fly shop on
premises.

Whatever plush cabin(s) the North Carolina crowd lays claim to. Generally, the
best accomodations at the clave. Bring your own alcoholic beverages, they are
don't drink at all, and turn in early<g>.

No doubt, since you would be by far the furthest-travelling Clave attendee, we
can find room for you in the Clave Central trailer, a 32 foot long fishing camp
occupied by Mr. Mike Shaw and Myself.
We snore a bit, and fish a bit more, but could provide a dry spot for you in a
pinch.

Tom

[Tom Littleton]

Roger asks:
>This Tom Littleton, how can I get in contact with him?

don't worry...he will find you. It's kinda creepy, but works well.
Tom

[Tom Littleton]

Opie writes:
> He's a very nice guy, btw.

nice try, Op. No free flies!
.......will trade for beverages, I suppose....

>just don't mention smokin' or drinkin', as he is a tee-totaller!--

yeah, I said the same about the NC crowd.
With any luck, Roger has by now figured we all are full of it.
Tom

[Tom Littleton]

Op writes:
>I don't know if I will have the time
>save by May to do the Penns.

you wuss, that is feeble excuse!!!
Tom
p.s. The choice is obvious, quit before the
clave! With that roaring Bush economy,
jobs will be behind every rock when
you return.

[Dave LaCourse]

Roger writes:

>I will try to get to the US for the Penns clave.
>God knows I can afford it, and if everything works out with the rest
>of the family I will go there.
>This Tom Littleton, how can I get in contact with him?

Tom Littleton's e-mail is
However, he will probably pick up on this thread and chime in at any moment.

>Is there any web site that I can find info on the accomodations, river and
>permit cost?

This is where many of us stayed last year:
http://www.pavisnet.com/schaferscountrycottages/location.html
There is also the possibility that there would be room in the North Carolina
cabin, usually obtained by Jeff or Wally. There is no river permit to fish the
rivers at Penns, and a fishing license with a trout stamp will run you about
$30.

If I attend, Roger (still up in the air about it), I believe it would be
cheapest to fly into Boston and I could pick you up and deliver you back for
your flight home. And, if necessary, I could drive my 32 foot camper, more
than enough room for two and we would be parked in the camping area where most
of Penns reprobates camp.
>
>/Roger
>I'll start research on the travel arrangements.



Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Jeff Miller]

indian joe and i have reserved the cherry run cabin for may 16-22... i
sent notes to the usual suspects who might be interested. didn't send a
note to you dave because you indicated in several early posts you
weren't going. i offered to cover warren's and dan'l's and i think
willi's share if they decided to attend and wanted a roof instead of
tent. haven't heard from them confirming anything yet, though warren
said he and lou t might stay. no one else has responded... don't know
wayno's or pj's plans. wally and tom brown said they aren't going this
year. indian joe has the big bedroom. i have the one next to it.
there is another very small bedroom upstairs, several beds (4?) in the
basement, and 2 couches. plus, a big yard for anyone who wants to camp.

the good thing about the cabin is its location by the stream and some
prime fishing, as well as access to the sportsman's club; the bad thing
is the distance from the group in the campground and the milheim bars.

tom littleton, mike makela, vince norris, and dave PA are the local
experts on the stream. the feathered hook flyshop in coburn is a good
resource too.

roger, penns is by far the largest gathering i've been to in the states.
you'll enjoy it, and meet a good sampling of the lunatics. the fishing
is fun too... as long as it doesn't rain. a fascinating part of this
world, shared with a good crowd of folks in pursuit of the great
mystery. hope you can make it...

jeff

Dave LaCourse wrote:

> Roger writes:
>
>
>>Ok, what's the date of this clave?
>>Who's clave meister? And where's the best place to stay?
>
>
> Tom Littleton is the clavemeister. I believe the clave is in late May. Best
> place to stay: The North Cackalakie Cabin. Jeff Miller usually tries to get
> one right on the stream (Cherry Run cabin), but last year we had to use cabins
> in town with a short drive to the stream. I don't know who is in charge of
> cabin appropriations for the 2004 clave. Jeff?
> Dave
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

"Tom Littleton" > wrote in message
...
> Op writes:
> >I don't know if I will have the time
> >save by May to do the Penns.
>
> you wuss, that is feeble excuse!!!
> Tom
> p.s. The choice is obvious, quit before the
> clave! With that roaring Bush economy,
> jobs will be behind every rock when
> you return.
>

Silly me! WTFWIT! How many trillions in debt does the Bush Admin. plan to
take us past the Reagan Admins?

Op --tonight while I chase the dragon...--

[asadi]

Well, Roger,

Looks like most of the folks are recommending Penns.

I now take the opportunity to tell you to brace up boy, get a grip on
yourself. In the process of investigating Sweden, I have come to the
realization that most of you Swedes are a bit on the prudish side.

Granted, we *will* take you to church one night for the annual prayer
meeting but other than that we are most decadent. You Swedes have outlawed
every vice I will admit to and have made the really fun ones dang nigh
impossible to find.

Not the case in the good old U.S of A.

......boy, are you gonna go home with some stories....see ya there!

john


"Roger Ohlund" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all,
>
> As all we see on ROFF are signatures and opinions (sometimes even
pictures,
> Dave's and rw's web sites). It is kind of nice to meet some of the people
on
> ROFF.
> I've met Vaughan Hurry, Myron Buck, Osmo Jauhiainen, Stefan Rajert and
Hans
> Bock. I've also introduced a friend of mine to this newsgroup, Erik
> Holmlund.
> I've had dealings (read: help) from Wolfgang Siebeneich and Paul Morrison
> aka RockTrout aka Bouncer, and I've helped Stan Gula with some fly
pictures.
> A sudden change of economics and rivermans post about "Dreaming of The
> Perfect Year..." made me think that I'd like to participate in one of
those
> big US ROFFian claves.
> The question is which one to choose? As far as I'm concerned the fishing
> wouldn't be the big issue here. I've got some of the best fishing
available
> right at home. No, the issue is to meet with as many of you as possible,
to
> exchange stories about your fishing, ideas on techniques, fly patterns and
> to be lied to over more than one glass of single malt ;-).
> My written English may be sufficient to express my thoughts and all, but
my
> practice of speaking English is not by far enough, so there's another
reason
> to visit.
>
> / Roger
> Daytime engineer
> Lifetime fly fisherman
> If you feel like it, visit http://www.imsoc.se/angler/ for info on fly
> fishing in northern Sweden, Lapland,
> or visit http://www.imsoc.se/ffgallery/ , the fly fishermen's gallery.
>
>

[Willi]

Roger Ohlund wrote:

If your goal is to meet the most Roffians, Penns is the place.

If you'd like to see some of the States' most impressive country and
have a greater range of fishing possibilities (as well as meet a goodly
number of Roffians), the Western Clave would be a better choice.

Different flavors to each.

Willi

[Lat705]

<< haven't heard from them confirming anything yet, though warren
said he and lou t might stay. no one else has responded... don't know
wayno's or pj's plans. >>


Talked to Warren on Sunday (free cell phone day). He said he would probably
break his lease on one of the bedrooms in my 3 room tent in preference to the
cabin on Cherry Run. The cabin sounds nice, but the tent is a Christmas gift
for use at the clave . I believe it might affect further gifts if I did not
use it for its first intended use.


Lou T

[Willi]

Jeff Miller wrote:

> indian joe and i have reserved the cherry run cabin for may 16-22... i
> sent notes to the usual suspects who might be interested. didn't send a
> note to you dave because you indicated in several early posts you
> weren't going. i offered to cover warren's and dan'l's and i think
> willi's share if they decided to attend

I appreciate the (belated?) offer, but if I go, I'll probably stay
somewhere closer to Clave Central.

Willi

[Lat705]

<< If you'd like to see some of the States' most impressive country an >>


Make that "world's" most... if you're into geothermal sights anyway.

In the park and you'll also meet many large animals that believe they are
further up the food chain than you.

Lou T

PS Then the obvious solution is to attend both claves.

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

"Willi" wrote:

If your goal is to meet the most Roffians, Penns is the place.

If you'd like to see some of the States' most impressive country and
have a greater range of fishing possibilities (as well as meet a goodly
number of Roffians), North Carolina is the place ya wanna see, so load up
your truck and become a hillbilly.

Different flavors to each.

Willi

[vincent p. norris]

Thanks for the kind remark, Jeff, but I don't think I qualify.

I usually flail the waters of Spring Creek and the Little J, closer to
home.

But I'll be happy to offer a ride from the State College Airport (aka
University Park Airport), if I'm not in Alaska.

vince

[Wolfgang]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the kind remark, Jeff, but I don't think I qualify.
>
> I usually flail the waters of Spring Creek and the Little J, closer to
> home.
>
> But I'll be happy to offer a ride from the State College Airport (aka
> University Park Airport), if I'm not in Alaska.

Um, not to appear contrarian or anything, Vince, but I don't believe you
are. :)

Wolfgang
to whom it didn't look a damned bit like alaska, anyway........well, or not
what he imagines alaska must look like, never having actually been there or
anything.....though he's seen lots of pictures.

[Roger Ohlund]

"asadi" > wrote in message
...
> Well, Roger,
>
> Looks like most of the folks are recommending Penns.
>
> I now take the opportunity to tell you to brace up boy, get a grip on
> yourself. In the process of investigating Sweden, I have come to the
> realization that most of you Swedes are a bit on the prudish side.
>
> Granted, we *will* take you to church one night for the annual prayer
> meeting but other than that we are most decadent. You Swedes have outlawed
> every vice I will admit to and have made the really fun ones dang nigh
> impossible to find.
>
> Not the case in the good old U.S of A.
>
> .....boy, are you gonna go home with some stories....see ya there!
>

Prudish? Us?
Nah, you got to be kiddin'
Our women are known as some of the most "liberated" women in the world......
With this statement, I rest my case ;-)

/Roger

[Jeff Miller]

Roger Ohlund wrote:


> Our women are known as some of the most "liberated" women in the world......
> With this statement, I rest my case ;-)
>
>

sweden sounds even, and ever, sweeter.

jeff (always happy to be among the liberated)

[asadi]

The Lapdance, I mean Lapland clave....you could have fun with this, just
went waaaaaaay up on my list of priorities!

Now, let's see, the top ten things I've always wanted to say in Swedish.....

john


"Roger Ohlund" > wrote in message
...
>
> "asadi" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Well, Roger,
> >
> > Looks like most of the folks are recommending Penns.
> >
> > I now take the opportunity to tell you to brace up boy, get a grip on
> > yourself. In the process of investigating Sweden, I have come to the
> > realization that most of you Swedes are a bit on the prudish side.
> >
> > Granted, we *will* take you to church one night for the annual prayer
> > meeting but other than that we are most decadent. You Swedes have
outlawed
> > every vice I will admit to and have made the really fun ones dang nigh
> > impossible to find.
> >
> > Not the case in the good old U.S of A.
> >
> > .....boy, are you gonna go home with some stories....see ya there!
> >
>
> Prudish? Us?
> Nah, you got to be kiddin'
> Our women are known as some of the most "liberated" women in the
world......
> With this statement, I rest my case ;-)
>
> /Roger
>
>

[Tim Carter]

> If you'd like to see some of the States' most impressive country and
> have a greater range of fishing possibilities (as well as meet a goodly
> number of Roffians), the Western Clave would be a better choice.

What are the dates for this Clave? Where is it and who runs the show?

Tim

[Jeff Miller]

july 9, montana, madison river area above quake lake, warren f. and his
collection of western camarads...

jeff

Tim Carter wrote:

>>If you'd like to see some of the States' most impressive country and
>>have a greater range of fishing possibilities (as well as meet a goodly
>>number of Roffians), the Western Clave would be a better choice.
>
>
> What are the dates for this Clave? Where is it and who runs the show?
>
> Tim
>
>

[bruiser]

"Jeff Miller" > wrote

> july 9, montana, madison river area above quake lake, > warren f. and his
> collection of western camarads...
>
> jeff
>

Thanks for the date reminder Jeff. Let's hope the weather's cooler! (than
Rock Creek, that is, the last time I fished the Madison you were there too,
and I froze my ass off). We might even get lucky this year and hit the
stoneflies.

bruce h

[Charlie Choc]

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 21:03:59 -0800, "bruiser" >
wrote:

> the last time I fished the Madison you were there too,
>and I froze my ass off

Weren't you a little wet, though? <g>
--
Charlie...

[Charlie Choc]

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 07:26:16 -0800, "bruiser" >
wrote:

>Si, Senor. Two inverted manuevers, in my waders. It was probably pretty
>comfy if you were dry. (g)
>
It wasn't bad. <g> I was amazed you were wading deep in that current -
I stayed *real* close to the bank.
--
Charlie...

[bruiser]

"Charlie Choc"
>
> Weren't you a little wet, though? <g>
> --

Si, Senor. Two inverted manuevers, in my waders. It was probably pretty
comfy if you were dry. (g)

bruce h

[Mike Makela]

Good to see an international flare this year at Penn's !!

And very good to see you (Dave) are planning on making it down to the great
state of Pennsylvania for our Clave for yet another year. I was afraid you
were serious about it being your last clave.

I'm still recuperating the foot from last year's Clave. I've got the Doc
stumped as to what the hell it is, but I can't hike too long without some
pain. He's talkin surgery, but I may hold off until after this year's clave
if possible. Foot surgery can take a while to heal.

The more I walk, the more severe it gets. If I sit on my arse for a few
days, it's fine.

The Death March may have done me in last year..

The Finn..

"Dave LaCourse" > wrote in message
...
> Roger writes:
>
> >I will try to get to the US for the Penns clave.
> >God knows I can afford it, and if everything works out with the rest
> >of the family I will go there.
> >This Tom Littleton, how can I get in contact with him?
>
> Tom Littleton's e-mail is
> However, he will probably pick up on this thread and chime in at any
moment.
>
> >Is there any web site that I can find info on the accomodations, river
and
> >permit cost?
>
> This is where many of us stayed last year:
> http://www.pavisnet.com/schaferscountrycottages/location.html
> There is also the possibility that there would be room in the North
Carolina
> cabin, usually obtained by Jeff or Wally. There is no river permit to
fish the
> rivers at Penns, and a fishing license with a trout stamp will run you
about
> $30.
>
> If I attend, Roger (still up in the air about it), I believe it would be
> cheapest to fly into Boston and I could pick you up and deliver you back
for
> your flight home. And, if necessary, I could drive my 32 foot camper,
more
> than enough room for two and we would be parked in the camping area where
most
> of Penns reprobates camp.
> >
> >/Roger
> >I'll start research on the travel arrangements.
>
>
>
> Dave
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Mike Makela]

If?


"Willi" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jeff Miller wrote:
>
> > indian joe and i have reserved the cherry run cabin for may 16-22... i
> > sent notes to the usual suspects who might be interested. didn't send a
> > note to you dave because you indicated in several early posts you
> > weren't going. i offered to cover warren's and dan'l's and i think
> > willi's share if they decided to attend
>
> I appreciate the (belated?) offer, but if I go, I'll probably stay
> somewhere closer to Clave Central.
>
> Willi
>
>

[Mike Makela]

Jeff,

I'm very interested in the smaller bedroom upstairs if it's still unspoken
for. I'll probably arrive a few days early and camp up at Clave Central and
then make my way down South, if it works out that way. I'll try to get
into the southern sleeping regimen by then.

Wally and Tom ain't joinin us???


"Jeff Miller" > wrote in message
news:1A4Gb.45328$hf1.29630@lakeread06...
> indian joe and i have reserved the cherry run cabin for may 16-22... i
> sent notes to the usual suspects who might be interested. didn't send a
> note to you dave because you indicated in several early posts you
> weren't going. i offered to cover warren's and dan'l's and i think
> willi's share if they decided to attend and wanted a roof instead of
> tent. haven't heard from them confirming anything yet, though warren
> said he and lou t might stay. no one else has responded... don't know
> wayno's or pj's plans. wally and tom brown said they aren't going this
> year. indian joe has the big bedroom. i have the one next to it.
> there is another very small bedroom upstairs, several beds (4?) in the
> basement, and 2 couches. plus, a big yard for anyone who wants to camp.
>
> the good thing about the cabin is its location by the stream and some
> prime fishing, as well as access to the sportsman's club; the bad thing
> is the distance from the group in the campground and the milheim bars.
>
> tom littleton, mike makela, vince norris, and dave PA are the local
> experts on the stream. the feathered hook flyshop in coburn is a good
> resource too.
>
> roger, penns is by far the largest gathering i've been to in the states.
> you'll enjoy it, and meet a good sampling of the lunatics. the fishing
> is fun too... as long as it doesn't rain. a fascinating part of this
> world, shared with a good crowd of folks in pursuit of the great
> mystery. hope you can make it...
>
> jeff
>
> Dave LaCourse wrote:
>
> > Roger writes:
> >
> >
> >>Ok, what's the date of this clave?
> >>Who's clave meister? And where's the best place to stay?
> >
> >
> > Tom Littleton is the clavemeister. I believe the clave is in late May.
Best
> > place to stay: The North Cackalakie Cabin. Jeff Miller usually tries
to get
> > one right on the stream (Cherry Run cabin), but last year we had to use
cabins
> > in town with a short drive to the stream. I don't know who is in charge
of
> > cabin appropriations for the 2004 clave. Jeff?
> > Dave
> >
> > http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[Danl]

"Mike Makela" <ten.tsacmoc@alekamm> wrote in message
...
.. If I sit on my arse for a few days, it's fine.
>
> The Finn..
>
Hey Mikey, I think I've got that same condition. All this time I thought I
was just a lazy lout, and now I find out there's a medical reason for this.


Good to hear from you again. I hope the foot gets better.

Danl

[Mike Makela]

You coming out for our Penn's Clave this year?

"Danl" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Makela" <ten.tsacmoc@alekamm> wrote in message
> ...
> . If I sit on my arse for a few days, it's fine.
> >
> > The Finn..
> >
> Hey Mikey, I think I've got that same condition. All this time I thought
I
> was just a lazy lout, and now I find out there's a medical reason for
this.
>
>
> Good to hear from you again. I hope the foot gets better.
>
> Danl
>
>
>

[Tom Littleton]

makela notes:
>The more I walk, the more severe it gets. If I sit on my arse for a few
>days, it's fine.
>
>The Death March may have done me in last year..

enough speculation....it's called GETTING
OLD, and the **** happens to us all. Welcome aboard....feel free to join us
slower, casual stalk and wade types. I will teach you how if you forgot. Bring
a bottle opener, btw.
Tom

[asadi]

Is that when it is, May 16-22?

john
"Tom Littleton" > wrote in message
...
> makela notes:
> >The more I walk, the more severe it gets. If I sit on my arse for a few
> >days, it's fine.
> >
> >The Death March may have done me in last year..
>
> enough speculation....it's called GETTING
> OLD, and the **** happens to us all. Welcome aboard....feel free to join
us
> slower, casual stalk and wade types. I will teach you how if you forgot.
Bring
> a bottle opener, btw.
> Tom

[Tom Littleton]

Mr.Baker asks:
>Is that when it is, May 16-22?

Those are the rough dates for the Penn's Clave. Feel free, however, to come
early and/or stay late. Just be there!
Tom

[Dave LaCourse]

Greg Pavlov writes:

> In the last few years I would get really
> stiff after fishing and then sitting still
> for a while, such as while driving home.
> Something that helped reduce this quite a
> bit is drinking water: I take a bottle with
> me and make sure I go through it during the
> day, along with my usual coffee, etc. I
> think that I was partially dehydrated much
> of the time and dealing with that helped
> reduce the stiffness.

Many years ago when I taught my first driving school, one of my fellow
instructors noticed I wasn't drinking anything. I became very fatigued and it
was because I was dehydrated. He brought a liter of water to me and I must
have drank the whole thing in one swallow. From then on, I carried a bottles
in the car and drank as much as I could. I always carry water when I'm
fishing. I have one of those back-pack-like bladders that you can fill with
ice/water. It's better than carrying a container of water, and if you put ice
in the bladder, it cools your back during the day.


Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Mike Makela]

"Tom Littleton" > wrote in message
...
>
> enough speculation....it's called GETTING
> OLD, and the **** happens to us all. Welcome aboard....feel free to join
us
> slower, casual stalk and wade types. I will teach you how if you forgot.
Bring
> a bottle opener, btw.
> Tom

I will no be assimilated, I gotta go see the Doc...although if I do, does
that qualify for entrance into the old man of the sea club?? It's kinda
like a Kingfisher dying and coming back as a Blue Huron, I just don't know
if my mind can operate that slow..I'll have to go look at the Evolution of a
Penn's Creek Fisherman for some pointers..

[Frank Reid]

> I will no be assimilated, I gotta go see the Doc...although if I do, does
> that qualify for entrance into the old man of the sea club??

Well, I'm getting the doc to patch up everything now, so I can be verticle
again once it gets warm enough to fish. Kinda like: fishing season,
football season, surgery season. By the way, I think you can get bulk
discounts from some doctors.
--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply

[Wayne Knight]

"Frank Reid" <moc.deepselbac@diersicnarf> wrote in message
...
> By the way, I think you can get bulk
> discounts from some doctors.
>

Yes its possible, however usually when we negotiate bulk discounts we are
negotiating for more patients, not more opportunities to do multiple
procedures on one patient :)

good luck Frank.

[Tom Littleton]

Makela notes:
>I'll have to go look at the Evolution of a
>Penn's Creek Fisherman for some pointers..

if I am supposed to be the illustration for that process, most would recoil in
horror.
highly evolved,
Tom

[Tim J.]

"Frank Reid" <moc.deepselbac@diersicnarf> wrote in message
...
> > I will no be assimilated, I gotta go see the Doc...although if I do, does
> > that qualify for entrance into the old man of the sea club??
>
> Well, I'm getting the doc to patch up everything now, so I can be verticle
> again once it gets warm enough to fish. Kinda like: fishing season,
> football season, surgery season. By the way, I think you can get bulk
> discounts from some doctors.

I hope so. I'm off to the doc myownself this week for lower back pain. I can't
stay vertical for more than about 2 hours at a time without it hurting to the
point of having to sit or lay down for a while. Makes a good day of fly fishing
go south real quick. I'm hoping there is something they can do short of surgery.

Is there anyone out there over 40 who's had a good back all their life?
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

[Frank Reid]

> > By the way, I think you can get bulk
> > discounts from some doctors.
> >
>
> Yes its possible, however usually when we negotiate bulk discounts we are
> negotiating for more patients, not more opportunities to do multiple
> procedures on one patient :)

Think of it this way, they can save on the gas passer.
--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply

[Stan Gula]

"Tim J." > wrote in message
news:fgUJb.737933$Tr4.1975472@attbi_s03...
> I can't stay vertical for more than about 2 hours at a time
<snip>

I sometimes have that problem, and I have one of my sons hide the Scotch.
Speaking of which, if you can stand the pain, you need to come over for a
dose.
--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps

[vincent p. norris]

>>enough speculation....it's called GETTING
>>OLD, and the **** happens to us all. ...

Hey! Don't bitch about getting old! You want to keep on doing that!
The more you do that, the better!

vince

[Wayne Harrison]

"Tim J." > wrote> Is there anyone out
there over 40 who's had a good back all their life?


i don't believe i have ever had sustained back problems.

oh, but then, i'm not over 40. sorry.

yfitons
wayno(and, yeah, it gets harder every year to fish bent over, on your knees,
for hours at a stretch)

[Charlie Choc]

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 15:08:04 GMT, "Wayne Harrison"
> wrote:

> oh, but then, i'm not over 40. sorry.
>
40 is easy to get over, just ignore him. <g>
--
Charlie...

[vincent p. norris]

>Yes its possible, however usually when we negotiate bulk discounts we are
>negotiating for more patients, ...

Shucks! I though "bulk discounts" applied to us overweight guys.

vince (who may need a hip replacement one of these days)

[Mike Connor]

"Tim J." > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:fgUJb.737933$Tr4.1975472@attbi_s03...
<SNIP>
> I hope so. I'm off to the doc myownself this week for lower back pain. I
can't
> stay vertical for more than about 2 hours at a time without it hurting to
the
> point of having to sit or lay down for a while. Makes a good day of fly
fishing
> go south real quick. I'm hoping there is something they can do short of
surgery.
>
> Is there anyone out there over 40 who's had a good back all their life?
> --
> TL,
> Tim
> http://css.sbcma.com/timj
>
>

Don´t know whether this will help, but I suffered severe back pain for
years, mainly as a result of slipped discs. There was never much the
doctors could do, except for pain.killers, and injections etc. On the advice
of a friend I bought an "ab-swing". Since I have been using it( less than
ten minutes a day, and it is quite easy to use), I have no pain at all, and
feel a great deal fitter.

You can buy them all over the place, just do a google search;
http://www.as-seen-on-tv-store-1.com/ab_swing.asp

Might be an option for you?

TL
MC

[Wolfgang]

"Tim J." > wrote in message
news:fgUJb.737933$Tr4.1975472@attbi_s03...
>
> "Frank Reid" <moc.deepselbac@diersicnarf> wrote in message
> ...
> > > I will no be assimilated, I gotta go see the Doc...although if I do,
does
> > > that qualify for entrance into the old man of the sea club??
> >
> > Well, I'm getting the doc to patch up everything now, so I can be
verticle
> > again once it gets warm enough to fish. Kinda like: fishing season,
> > football season, surgery season. By the way, I think you can get bulk
> > discounts from some doctors.
>
> I hope so. I'm off to the doc myownself this week for lower back pain. I
can't
> stay vertical for more than about 2 hours at a time without it hurting to
the
> point of having to sit or lay down for a while. Makes a good day of fly
fishing
> go south real quick. I'm hoping there is something they can do short of
surgery.
>
> Is there anyone out there over 40 who's had a good back all their life?

Well, if you discount a brief period of lower back pain back in the heavy
lifting days, yeah.

One of the best things you can do to avoid back pain is win the genetic
lotto......though, I suppose it's too late for that in your case, huh?
:)

I actually went through a bout of roughly two years with moderate to
occasionally fairly severe pain in my early twenties. Too much heavy
lifting (read misapplied testosterone), combined with too little other
exercise. I believe there are two major factors leading to its eventual
disappearance. First, I discovered both bicycle touring and backpacking. I
don't mean to suggest that either of those activities is necessarily in
itself good for your back......putting an extra forty pounds on your
shoulders and hips may well aggravate back pain and biking keeps you hunched
over for hours at a time.....but, in my case I became much more active....to
the point of being downright athletic for the first time in my life.
Second, as a result of what proved to be a long chain of employment
misadventures, I found myself living in a tool shed somewhere outside
Atlanta without the wherewithal to buy so much as a chair or a bed. I found
myself sleeping in my sleeping bag on top of a plywood box with only a 3/8"
Ensolite foam pad for a mattress. My financial situation improved,
marginally, about a year later, but I continued to live a portable life for
several years. Eventually, I upgraded to a three inch thick open cell foam
mattress....just enough to keep me from smashing my elbows on the floor when
turning over in my sleep....and continued to sleep on the floor for thirteen
years.

Don't know if any of that will help you, but I've known several people with
chronic back pain all my life, all of whom swore by waterbeds when they
first became popular and all of whom were eventually much surprised to learn
that they fared better with a hard mattress.....the harder the better. A
couple of them went the whole nine yards (not at my suggestion) and started
sleeping on a really hard surface like what I described above. They claimed
that it helped them considerably.

All that said, I believe that exercise is the more important part of the
equation. If your doctor doesn't find any gross pathological condition,
it's quite possible that you're simply carrying too much weight too far
forward without the musculature to support it adequately. Standing
relatively still in one place for a long time....a fairly accurate
description of how many people practice fly fishing.....causes the muscles
in the lower back to be more or less locked in one position, not what they
were designed to do. There is a large group of muscles extending down the
back on either side of the spine, attached at the lower end to the pelvic
girdle. When these muscles contract on one side they lift the pelvis on
that side and also the leg attached to it.....this is what allows you to
move that leg forward to walk. If you place your fingertips on either side
of you spine and take a few steps you can feel what's going on. As you
raise one leg to take a step you'll feel a sudden and powerful contraction
in the muscle on that side. THAT is what those muscles are designed to
do....contract and relax....thousands of times per day.

Walk. Fast. But start out easy....ten or fifteen minutes a couple of times
a day. Work your way up gradually for a couple of weeks until you can
maintain three to four miles per hour for a whole hour. I got a shiny new
nickel says it will help.

Wolfgang
not a health care professional.

[rb608]

"Tim J." >
> Is there anyone out there over 40 who's had a good back all their life?

At 51, I've been very fortunate. Still strong as an ox and almost as smart.

One incident in my history allows me to empathize with the sufferers,
however. I slipped on some stairs and came down on my back right on the
edge of a tread. Knocked the wind out of me, but I was okay for about 15
minutes until the spasms began. Sonofabitch that was painful. Fortunately,
a trip to the ER & some great muscle relaxers & pain killers turned me
around in a couple days.

Joe F.

[riverman]

"rb608" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tim J." >
> > Is there anyone out there over 40 who's had a good back all their life?
>
> At 51, I've been very fortunate. Still strong as an ox and almost as
smart.
>
> One incident in my history allows me to empathize with the sufferers,
> however. I slipped on some stairs and came down on my back right on the
> edge of a tread. Knocked the wind out of me, but I was okay for about 15
> minutes until the spasms began. Sonofabitch that was painful.
Fortunately,
> a trip to the ER & some great muscle relaxers & pain killers turned me
> around in a couple days.
>


Ahhh, back spasms. That was the last time I cried like a baby: only 3 years
ago, and I was woken out of a deep sleep by the feeling of my back starting
to tighten up...knowing it wasn't going to abate in time before the spasms
began. I started crying (at the tender age of 42), begging for them to
stop. IMNSHO, there is no pain on earth like it. My current defense is to
take a shot of whiskey, three aspirins, a valium, and a magical pill called
'Cataflam' that knocks me out. Then I lie on a bag of frozen peas (they
form-fit to my back) and go to sleep.

Good luck to anyone who gets back spasms.

--riverman

[Tim J.]

"Wolfgang" wrote...
> "Tim J." wrote...
<snip>
> > Is there anyone out there over 40 who's had a good back all their life?
>
> Well, if you discount a brief period of lower back pain back in the heavy
> lifting days, yeah.
>
<snip>
> All that said, I believe that exercise is the more important part of the
> equation. If your doctor doesn't find any gross pathological condition,
> it's quite possible that you're simply carrying too much weight too far
> forward without the musculature to support it adequately.

That CAN'T be it! I am but a svelte example of perfect body structure!
http://css.sbcma.com/timj/pics/Gary%20and%20Tim.jpg (that's me on the right.
That obese tub-o-lard on the left is Gary M.)

<snip again>

> Walk. Fast. But start out easy....ten or fifteen minutes a couple of times
> a day. Work your way up gradually for a couple of weeks until you can
> maintain three to four miles per hour for a whole hour.

I wish I could get out and walk more. Right now, walking causes a great deal of
pain, and that's what I'm hoping the doc can tell me - what's causing it to hurt
worse when walking. This hasn't happened to me before, as walking always has
helped in the past.

> I got a shiny new
> nickel says it will help.

Send it to Miracle Flights for Kids. ;-)

>
> Wolfgang
> not a health care professional.

Well, no, but that doesn't usually damage the advice. Thanks.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

[Tim J.]

"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
...
> "Tim J." > wrote in message
> news:fgUJb.737933$Tr4.1975472@attbi_s03...
> > I can't stay vertical for more than about 2 hours at a time
> <snip>
>
> I sometimes have that problem, and I have one of my sons hide the Scotch.
> Speaking of which, if you can stand the pain, you need to come over for a
> dose.

I didn't say I can't sit on my ass and drink OPS. I'll contact you off line and
set a date. I just ordered a bunch of #10 dry fly hooks for the GFS, so after
they arrive I'll get in touch. I don't yet know what I'll be tying, but it'll be
big.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

[Dave LaCourse]

I hurt my back playing flag football while in mother Nav, but after it healed,
I've had no problems. Now, my *front*, that's where the problems are.
d;o)
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Jeff Miller]

Tim J. wrote:


>
> Is there anyone out there over 40 who's had a good back all their life?

yup -... uh, was this a trick question?

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> Don´t know whether this will help, but I suffered severe back pain for
> years, mainly as a result of slipped discs. There was never much the
> doctors could do, except for pain.killers, and injections etc. On the
advice
> of a friend I bought an "ab-swing". Since I have been using it( less than
> ten minutes a day, and it is quite easy to use), I have no pain at all,
and
> feel a great deal fitter.
>
> You can buy them all over the place, just do a google search;
> http://www.as-seen-on-tv-store-1.com/ab_swing.asp
>
> Might be an option for you?

Have had two lower back surgeries (L5 rupture, 1992 and 1993) and no serious
poblems since, I think I might look into the little machine--tho shippin'
cost seems a bit outta line?

Op

> TL
> MC
>
>

[Charlie Wilson]

"Tim J." wrote:
> Is there anyone out there over 40 who's had a good back all their life?

Not me. I was hospitalized for a week in July; I was in unimaginable
pain in spite of the morphine drip (and you don't even want to know what
they did to me when I wasn't able to pee because of the pain). The pain went
away almost as fast as it started, and the attending orthopedist and
neurologist just shrugged their shoulders and discharged me without an
explanation. An MD friend recently explained what he thinks might have
occurred; he thinks a portion of the disc "squished" out, pressing on a
nerve. He said the extrusion more than likely separated from the disc, which
would explain the occasional mild discomfort I still have from time to time.

[Kevin Vang]

In article >,
says...
>
> Ahhh, back spasms.

I was in the kitchen making pancakes one Sunday morning
last September, when I felt a twinge in the middle of my
back. Within about a minute, I was laying flat on the
floor, unable to move. Jen somehow dragged my sorry ass
out to the truck and drove me to the ER, where they pumped
me full of morphine and muscle relaxers. A few hours
later, they sent me home. My back was sore for a few
days, but it's been fine ever since.

I talked to a back specialist later, and he said that
he prefers to treat back spasms with stretching and ice
packs, and not drugs, but the drugs seemed to work fine
for me.

Kevin

[Lat705]

> mild discomfort I still have from time to time.

"mild discomfort"- Medical Definition: Severe pain that the diagnosing doctor
is not personaly experiencing.

Lou T

[Warren]

wrote...
> I wish I could get out and walk more. Right now, walking causes a great deal of
> pain, and that's what I'm hoping the doc can tell me - what's causing it to hurt
> worse when walking. This hasn't happened to me before, as walking always has
> helped in the past.

Have you tried a chiropractor?
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
For Conclave Info:
http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/MadisonConclave.html

[Tom Littleton]

David notes:
> Now, my *front*, that's where the problems are.

Please, no more info on this "front"!

Tom

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

"Warren" > wrote in message
...
> wrote...
> > I wish I could get out and walk more. Right now, walking causes a great
deal of
> > pain, and that's what I'm hoping the doc can tell me - what's causing it
to hurt
> > worse when walking. This hasn't happened to me before, as walking always
has
> > helped in the past.
>
> Have you tried a chiropractor?
> --
> Warren


Not that Warren's intent isn't good, but I would avoid *any* chiropractic
services, before you have an MRI done. Before I knew what was wrong with my
back, my aunt convinced me to try a chiropractor. He did some x-rays and
poked, pulled and prodded me. Told me I'd get better real soon. Two month
later I had an MRI, and was told I had a massive rupture of the L5 disc. By
the time I made it to the operatin' table, I couldn't sit, stand or lie-down
without incredible pain. I feel certain, I would have, eventually, shot
myself, had I not gotten help.

Now I can't say the chiropractor did any more damage than was done to begin
with, but it ain't worth findin' out, IMMHO. If you don't already have a
rupture and the disc is just herniated or bulging (don't know the proper
med. terms), it is likely you can get the disc worked back into place with
the proper exercises. I go with a neurosurgeon off the bat! My first
Ortho-doc butchered me, and a neuro-doc fixed me.

Op --just my 2nd sense--

[Charlie Wilson]

"Kevin Vang" wrote:
> I talked to a back specialist later, and he said that
> he prefers to treat back spasms with stretching and ice
> packs, and not drugs, but the drugs seemed to work fine
> for me.

My ordeal left with whatever you call the opposite of a "monkey on my
back". I ingested a pretty fair amount of percocet and oxycontin back in
July and August, I now seem to have developed a major intolerance for the
stuff. I've taken it twice since then (broken molar and major hip pointer),
on both occasions I became violently ill. The wiff tells me I should throw
the rest of it away, but I'm just too cheap.

[Kevin Vang]

In article >,
says...

>
> My ordeal left with whatever you call the opposite of a "monkey on my
> back". I ingested a pretty fair amount of percocet and oxycontin back in
> July and August, I now seem to have developed a major intolerance for the
> stuff. I've taken it twice since then (broken molar and major hip pointer),
> on both occasions I became violently ill. The wiff tells me I should throw
> the rest of it away, but I'm just too cheap.


What, you think that sometime in the future you will actually need to
be made violently ill, and don't want to have to pay for a new scrip?

Kevin

[Tim J.]

"Warren" > wrote in message
...
> wrote...
> > I wish I could get out and walk more. Right now, walking causes a great deal
of
> > pain, and that's what I'm hoping the doc can tell me - what's causing it to
hurt
> > worse when walking. This hasn't happened to me before, as walking always has
> > helped in the past.
>
> Have you tried a chiropractor?

BTDT, thanks.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

[cyli@tiny.net.invalid]

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 18:12:49 -0600, Kevin Vang >
wrote:

>In article >,
>says...
>
>>
>> My ordeal left with whatever you call the opposite of a "monkey on my
>> back". I ingested a pretty fair amount of percocet and oxycontin back in
>> July and August, I now seem to have developed a major intolerance for the
>> stuff. I've taken it twice since then (broken molar and major hip pointer),
>> on both occasions I became violently ill. The wiff tells me I should throw
>> the rest of it away, but I'm just too cheap.
>
>
>What, you think that sometime in the future you will actually need to
>be made violently ill, and don't want to have to pay for a new scrip?
>

He may not be able to use it, but there may be some extraordinary
circumstance where he's got it and someone else needs it. When you
tend to hang out in the outdoors an hour or more from a hospital and
maybe several more from a trauma center, it's good to be able to tell
the guy with the bones sticking out of his leg that you have something
that may help a bit while you stretch and splint it.

--

rbc:vixen,Minnow Goddess,Willow Watcher,and all that sort of thing.
Often taunted by trout.
Only a fool would refuse to believe in luck. Only a damn fool would rely on it.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli

[Charlie Wilson]

"Kevin Vang" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>
> >
> > My ordeal left with whatever you call the opposite of a "monkey on
my
> > back". I ingested a pretty fair amount of percocet and oxycontin back in
> > July and August, I now seem to have developed a major intolerance for
the
> > stuff. I've taken it twice since then (broken molar and major hip
pointer),
> > on both occasions I became violently ill. The wiff tells me I should
throw
> > the rest of it away, but I'm just too cheap.
>
>
> What, you think that sometime in the future you will actually need to
> be made violently ill, and don't want to have to pay for a new scrip?

Hell no, when I retire from my current position I'm going to become a
drug pusher. Better pay, shorter hours, more respect from the
community........

[slenon]

Op:
>Not that Warren's intent isn't good, but I would >avoid *any* chiropractic
>services, before you have an MRI done.

I whole-heartedly support Op's position. Over the years, in many hospitals,
I've seen lots of patients come in with damage caused by chiropractors
plying their trade on patients who needed intervention by a surgeon or an
internist.

If chiropractic works for any of you, well and good. For me, it ranks right
down there with faith healing and wearing crystals.

I'll omit the horror stories I've amassed along the way but I can provide
them, minus names, to the interested. Bottom line, avoid chiropractors like
plague.

--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[John Hightower]

"slenon" > wrote in message
. com...
> Op:
> >Not that Warren's intent isn't good, but I would >avoid *any*
chiropractic
> >services, before you have an MRI done.
>
> I whole-heartedly support Op's position. Over the years, in many
hospitals,
> I've seen lots of patients come in with damage caused by chiropractors
> plying their trade on patients who needed intervention by a surgeon or an
> internist.
>
> If chiropractic works for any of you, well and good. For me, it ranks
right
> down there with faith healing and wearing crystals.
>
> I'll omit the horror stories I've amassed along the way but I can provide
> them, minus names, to the interested. Bottom line, avoid chiropractors
like
> plague.
>
> --
My wife is an ortho nurse- says the same thing -avoid chiropractors like the
plague. One of her favorite comments is the famous " I love my
chiropractor- I go see him once a week and feel so much better" line. duh -
maybe a real doctor could actually fix the prob. instead of generating a
consistent weekly income.

jh

[Tom puppethead gang]

John Hightower wrote:

> "slenon" > wrote in message
> . com...
>
>>Op:
>>
>>>Not that Warren's intent isn't good, but I would >avoid *any*
>
> chiropractic
>
>>>services, before you have an MRI done.
>>
>>I whole-heartedly support Op's position. Over the years, in many
>
> hospitals,
>
>>I've seen lots of patients come in with damage caused by chiropractors
>>plying their trade on patients who needed intervention by a surgeon or an
>>internist.
>>
>>If chiropractic works for any of you, well and good. For me, it ranks
>
> right
>
>>down there with faith healing and wearing crystals.
>>
>>I'll omit the horror stories I've amassed along the way but I can provide
>>them, minus names, to the interested. Bottom line, avoid chiropractors
>
> like
>
>>plague.
>>
>>--
>
> My wife is an ortho nurse- says the same thing -avoid chiropractors like the
> plague. One of her favorite comments is the famous " I love my
> chiropractor- I go see him once a week and feel so much better" line. duh -
> maybe a real doctor could actually fix the prob. instead of generating a
> consistent weekly income.
>
> jh
>
>

Several years ago, I found myself in the unfortunate circumstance of
presenting myself at the Duke Emergency Room (spiked temp and muscle
tremors). While I was being examined/treated by the bizarre case
specialist, an ambulance delivered a patient to the adjacent exam area. The
patient was...well, dead. He'd come from a chiropractor's office and I
later learned that the cause of death was determined to be an infarction of
the brain stem, resulting from chiropractic "manipulation" of the patient's
neck. The story made the local paper, but only for one day.


My business partner followed the recommendation of a family member for
treatment of a sore hip and the chiropractor suggested a "cold laser"
treatment. He then produced a blue LED pointer and began to "lase" the
affected area without removing Mike's trousers. When Mike asked just what
the hell he was doing and asked about the power/wavelength of the "laser"
the chiropractor unceremoniously ushered him to the door.

Somehow, I think of chiropractors and "soylant green", concurrently.

Tom

[Scott Seidman]

"John Hightower" > wrote in
:

>
> "slenon" > wrote in message
> . com...
>> Op:
>> >Not that Warren's intent isn't good, but I would >avoid *any*
> chiropractic
>> >services, before you have an MRI done.
>>
>> I whole-heartedly support Op's position. Over the years, in many
> hospitals,
>> I've seen lots of patients come in with damage caused by
>> chiropractors plying their trade on patients who needed intervention
>> by a surgeon or an internist.
>>
>> If chiropractic works for any of you, well and good. For me, it
>> ranks
> right
>> down there with faith healing and wearing crystals.
>>
>> I'll omit the horror stories I've amassed along the way but I can
>> provide them, minus names, to the interested. Bottom line, avoid
>> chiropractors
> like
>> plague.
>>
>> --
> My wife is an ortho nurse- says the same thing -avoid chiropractors
> like the plague. One of her favorite comments is the famous " I love
> my chiropractor- I go see him once a week and feel so much better"
> line. duh - maybe a real doctor could actually fix the prob. instead
> of generating a consistent weekly income.
>
> jh
>
>

Check out the chiropractor discussions at quackwatch.org

Scott

[Wolfgang]

"Tom puppethead gang" > wrote in message
r.com...
> John Hightower wrote:
>
> > "slenon" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> >
> >>Op:
> >>
> >>>Not that Warren's intent isn't good, but I would >avoid *any*
> >
> > chiropractic
> >
> >>>services, before you have an MRI done.
> >>
> >>I whole-heartedly support Op's position. Over the years, in many
> >
> > hospitals,
> >
> >>I've seen lots of patients come in with damage caused by chiropractors
> >>plying their trade on patients who needed intervention by a surgeon or
an
> >>internist.
> >>
> >>If chiropractic works for any of you, well and good. For me, it ranks
> >
> > right
> >
> >>down there with faith healing and wearing crystals.
> >>
> >>I'll omit the horror stories I've amassed along the way but I can
provide
> >>them, minus names, to the interested. Bottom line, avoid chiropractors
> >
> > like
> >
> >>plague.
> >>
> >>--
> >
> > My wife is an ortho nurse- says the same thing -avoid chiropractors like
the
> > plague. One of her favorite comments is the famous " I love my
> > chiropractor- I go see him once a week and feel so much better" line.
duh -
> > maybe a real doctor could actually fix the prob. instead of generating a
> > consistent weekly income.
> >
> > jh
> >
> >
>
> Several years ago, I found myself in the unfortunate circumstance of
> presenting myself at the Duke Emergency Room (spiked temp and muscle
> tremors). While I was being examined/treated by the bizarre case
> specialist, an ambulance delivered a patient to the adjacent exam area.
The
> patient was...well, dead. He'd come from a chiropractor's office and I
> later learned that the cause of death was determined to be an infarction
of
> the brain stem, resulting from chiropractic "manipulation" of the
patient's
> neck. The story made the local paper, but only for one day.

I saw a dead guy in a hospital morgue about six months ago. He'd come
from......well, the emergency room. Go figure.

> My business partner followed the recommendation of a family member for
> treatment of a sore hip and the chiropractor suggested a "cold laser"
> treatment. He then produced a blue LED pointer and began to "lase" the
> affected area without removing Mike's trousers. When Mike asked just what
> the hell he was doing and asked about the power/wavelength of the "laser"
> the chiropractor unceremoniously ushered him to the door.

Sounds like your partner saw a quack. Sounds like your partner has family
problems.

Roughly a year and a half ago Becky's dog, Cullen (who is sitting beside me
as I type) had an accident. He slipped while running on wet grass and hurt
his back badly enough that his back legs were immediately paralyzed. Becky
carried him to the car and drove him immediately to a fully accredited
veterinary clinic with a highly thought of staff.....same place she had been
taking him for years. The vet palpated his back, drew some blood, felt his
legs, blah, blah. Didn't take any x-rays, though....said that under the
circumstances (whatever he thought them to be.....that was never quite
explained to me or to Becky) it was pointless; the x-rays wouldn't tell us
anything worthwhile. Hey, you trust your doctors, right?

Becky carried Cullen's ass end in a sling for the next three weeks. His
left rear leg slowly regained enough strength and control so that he could
put some weight on it and almost stand by himself but the vet was getting
ready to amputate the right.About that time, a friend recommended that she
take Cullen to a vet clinic in Sturdevant where they take a holistic
approach to animal care. Becky figures what the hell.....nothing much to
lose. She takes Cullen to the doggie chiropractor/accupuncturist who starts
the examination by asking to see the x-rays. The by now angry
chiropractor/accupuncturist sends Cullen off to the x-ray room. After
examining the x-rays he gives Becky the diagnosis and recommends a course of
treatment. She agrees. He grabs Cullen, bends him this way and that,
scrunches him and and stretches him out.....etc. He then proceeds to stick
a couple dozen needles in the dog, who lies there smiling.

The next day, Cullen stood on his own for the first time since the accident.
He was walking, albeit hesitantly and only very briefly within a few more
days. He goes back to the bone crunching voodoo herbalist witch doctor
every two to three months now, and can't wait to get in the door. Dogs are
SO ****ing credulous.

Oh, and he ran my sorry ass ragged about an hour ago.

> Somehow, I think of chiropractors and "soylant green", concurrently.

You should quit smoking nylon.

Wolfgang

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...

Personally, I have nothin' against 'practors, but I have had other
experiences with them that didn't instill a great deal of confidence toward
them. I had that blasphemous ATV roll-over on me sometime back. It seems
to have done some damage to my ribs and back at the time, but nothin' that
appears to be permanent. I was directed to a local medical office for care.
Well lo-and-behold, this medical office was a front, yes a front! for a
chriropractors service. I was never told that the so-called doctor was not
a medical doctor, untill after he had placed me face down on a funny lookin'
table and manipulated my back, neck and legs. I asked about medications,
and he said that the *real* doctor came in on Wed. to perscribe meds.

It was a set-up. I continued to go for a few more sessions, hopin' to get
some relief, but the only relief I gained from the experience was thru the
meds. The ultra-sound seemed to warm my mucsles for a short time, but gave
no lastin relief. Eventually, I got
better.................................PHYSICALLY!

Op --nowhere on the sinage did it advertise anything but MEDICAL services.
Not quite cricket, if ya ask me!--

> Wolfgang
>
>

[Warren]

wrote...
> My wife is an ortho nurse- says the same thing -avoid chiropractors like the
> plague. One of her favorite comments is the famous " I love my
> chiropractor- I go see him once a week and feel so much better" line. duh -
> maybe a real doctor could actually fix the prob. instead of generating a
> consistent weekly income.

A chiropractor did more good for me, and at less expense, than three
years of seeing doctors and physical therapists.....
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
For Conclave Info:
http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/MadisonConclave.html

[Jeff Miller]

Warren wrote:

>
> A chiropractor did more good for me, and at less expense, than three
> years of seeing doctors and physical therapists.....

lawd, lawd... hie yuself on out here an we'll get a reading and
prescription from a south carolina root doctor... if chiropractors did
that much for you, hell, after consulting the low country obeah man,
i'll buy the lottery tickets. <g>

[slenon]

Wolfgang:
>The next day, Cullen stood on his own for the first time since the
accident.
>He was walking, albeit hesitantly and only very briefly within a few more
>days. He goes back to the bone crunching voodoo herbalist witch doctor
>every two to three months now, and can't wait to get in the door. Dogs are
>SO ****ing credulous.

IMO, your tale only proves that not all vets pratice at the same level of
aggression with respect to trauma. However, I'm glad that the dog
recovered. As I said, to me chiropractic equates to new age voodoo stirred
with shamanism. If it works for someone else, so be it. I will not address
a chiropractor as "Dr." nor trust any member of my family to such therapy.

To paraphrase, it is amazing how many people who visit chiropractors are
cured the day their insurance benefits expire.

YMMV.
--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[Wolfgang]

"slenon" > wrote in message
om...
> Wolfgang:
> >The next day, Cullen stood on his own for the first time since the
> accident.
> >He was walking, albeit hesitantly and only very briefly within a few more
> >days. He goes back to the bone crunching voodoo herbalist witch doctor
> >every two to three months now, and can't wait to get in the door. Dogs
are
> >SO ****ing credulous.
>
> IMO, your tale only proves that not all vets pratice at the same level of
> aggression with respect to trauma.

Actually, it also demonstrates that one anecdote is pretty much as good as
another. Moreover, in my experience, first hand anecdotes are
overwhelmingly positive. Aside from what I've read here on ROFF, I have
NEVER heard anyone relate a personal chiropractic horror story. It is
neither odd nor surprising that it is typically when one gets the story at
third or fourth hand that some poor ******* has been broken in half and
somebody lost the parts......that's the way horror stories grow. Also
interesting is the fact that most such stories are attributed, in their
original form, to someone at the periphery of the medical professions. Not
doctors, mind you (someone would remember a doctor's name, and he or she
could theoretically be tracked down......and there ARE libel laws), but
someone's sister in law who happens to be a surgical nurse or blah, blah.

> However, I'm glad that the dog recovered.

So am I. So is Becky. So is the voodoo witch doctor. So, presumably, is
Cullen.

> As I said, to me chiropractic equates to new age voodoo stirred
> with shamanism.

Hm.....sort of like carving off a piece of yourself to appease the spirits
and flaunting the stump.....that the sort of thing, you mean?

> If it works for someone else, so be it.

So let it be written.

> I will not address
> a chiropractor as "Dr." nor trust any member of my family to such therapy.

One suspects that a good few of them wouldn't much give a **** if you
addressed them at all. Do you decide for your family whom they will
marry.....where they take their cars for repairs.....what they will have for
supper?

> To paraphrase, it is amazing how many people who visit chiropractors are
> cured the day their insurance benefits expire.

People without insurance can often get in to see a chiropractor.....and get
some relief.....for twenty or thirty bucks. Most doctors wouldn't **** on
them if they were on fire for that kind of money.

> YMMV.

Yeah, that'll happen to thinking people.

Wolfgang

[Warren]

wrote...
> lawd, lawd... hie yuself on out here an we'll get a reading and
> prescription from a south carolina root doctor... if chiropractors did
> that much for you, hell, after consulting the low country obeah man,
> i'll buy the lottery tickets. <g>

Is she good looking *before* the shine? If so, I'll let her pull my
root. <bseg>
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
For Conclave Info:
http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/MadisonConclave.html

[Warren]

wrote...
> To paraphrase, it is amazing how many people who visit chiropractors are
> cured the day their insurance benefits expire.

Even more amazing how many people don't get to visit the doctor
because they can't afford to or don't have insurance.....
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
For Conclave Info:
http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/MadisonConclave.html

[B J Conner]

You must be a liberal Warren, Perhaps we can get Strider to splain to you
that the natural order of things is to let these people die because there
economic underachievers and it's god way of getting them out of the gene
pool <%^)
"Warren" > wrote in message
...
> wrote...
> > To paraphrase, it is amazing how many people who visit chiropractors are
> > cured the day their insurance benefits expire.
>
> Even more amazing how many people don't get to visit the doctor
> because they can't afford to or don't have insurance.....
> --
> Warren
> (use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
> For Conclave Info:
> http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/MadisonConclave.html

[Jeff Miller]

well my friend, if you desire to be rootless, i suppose they'll use
whatever you want to provide... but, as for myself, it would be a short
session... and the fire part would be a real pain... course, if you're
set on your particular offering, i suspect you'd be handled with the
same professionalism offered by your chiro. <g>

jeff

Warren wrote:
> wrote...
>
>>lawd, lawd... hie yuself on out here an we'll get a reading and
>>prescription from a south carolina root doctor... if chiropractors did
>>that much for you, hell, after consulting the low country obeah man,
>>i'll buy the lottery tickets. <g>
>
>
> Is she good looking *before* the shine? If so, I'll let her pull my
> root. <bseg>

[slenon]

>Even more amazing how many people don't get to visit the doctor
>because they can't afford to or don't have insurance.....
-Warren

And if either you or I were somehow in charge, we'd fix that problem, right?

--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[slenon]

Wolfgang:
> I have NEVER heard anyone relate a personal chiropractic horror story.

I can cite locations, offending practitioner, and the whole litany in
private. I will not do so on a public forum as I previously indicated. One
reason for you not having heard many or any first-hand stories is that often
the patient doesn't recognize that they have been mistreated and the
physicians who clean up the mess won't tell them that their problem is now
iatrogenic because of those libel laws.

If you believe in chiropractic, may you have a long and profitable
relationship with one or many. But I suggest you take the theory of spinal
subluxations to a neurosurgeon for his opinion of "spinal manipulation."

> Do you decide for your family whom they will
>marry.....where they take their cars for repairs.....what they will have
for supper?

If I'm cooking, yes, the decision about supper is mine.

>People without insurance can often get in to see a chiropractor.....and get
>some relief.....for twenty or thirty bucks. Most doctors wouldn't **** on
>them if they were on fire for that kind of money.

That may well have to do with the fact that many DC's are IMO even more
money hungry than MD's.



--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[Joe McIntosh]

"slenon" > wrote in message
om...
>
> To paraphrase, it is amazing how many people who visit chiropractors are
> cured the day their insurance benefits expire.
>
>IJ offers--- is that why my neck therpy man ask how many visits were
covered {12] and then said he thought it would take 12 visits to work out
kink in my neck ? sorry to say that's the way the system works.

>Or why a hospital trip gets billed for double the acceptable medicare rate.
They charge the overcharge off as a bad debt and can show medicare how much
money they lost this year in order to get a higher rate next year.

[Wolfgang]

"slenon" > wrote in message
m...
> Wolfgang:
> > I have NEVER heard anyone relate a personal chiropractic horror
story.
>
> I can cite locations, offending practitioner, and the whole litany
in
> private. I will not do so on a public forum as I previously
indicated.

O.k., send 'em along. Please include names, phone numbers and email
addresses of victims and offending practitioners. It would also be
helpful to know which victims and offenders go together.

> One
> reason for you not having heard many or any first-hand stories is
that often
> the patient doesn't recognize that they have been mistreated and the
> physicians who clean up the mess won't tell them that their problem
is now
> iatrogenic because of those libel laws.

So, we got God knows how many thousands of these mescreants maiming
untold millions of people all over the Western world, and there ain't
goddmaned thing anybody can do about it. huh? Well, how remarkably
convenient for them. :)

> If you believe in chiropractic,

Believe in? What does that mean?

> may you have a long and profitable
> relationship with one or many.

So far as I can recall, I have never spoken to or had any other sort
of communication with a chiropractor. However, I like the idea of
making a profit. If it's not too much trouble, could you please tell
me how you would go about getting money from them? Seems to me it
might be kinda hard if one dare not even speak their names (or even,
presumably, portions thereof) in public.

> But I suggest you take the theory of spinal
> subluxations to a neurosurgeon for his opinion of "spinal
manipulation."

A neurosurgeon.....hm.....sounds like an idea. And where would a boy
find one of those?

> > Do you decide for your family whom they will
> >marry.....where they take their cars for repairs.....what they will
have
> for supper?
>
> If I'm cooking, yes, the decision about supper is mine.

Well, be sure to wash your head before handling foodstuffs........we
know where it's been, don't we?

> >People without insurance can often get in to see a
chiropractor.....and get
> >some relief.....for twenty or thirty bucks. Most doctors wouldn't
**** on
> >them if they were on fire for that kind of money.
>
> That may well have to do with the fact that many DC's are IMO even
more
> money hungry than MD's.

Uh huh, and you've certainly demonstrated the value of your opinions.
:)

Wolfgang
who eagerly awaits the promised information.

[Willi]

Wolfgang wrote:


> The next day, Cullen stood on his own for the first time since the accident.
> He was walking, albeit hesitantly and only very briefly within a few more
> days. He goes back to the bone crunching voodoo herbalist witch doctor
> every two to three months now, and can't wait to get in the door. Dogs are
> SO ****ing credulous.
>
> Oh, and he ran my sorry ass ragged about an hour ago.


Susan is a strong believer in holistic medicine. I was very skeptical
until I started to see results in our dogs. I don't think there can be a
placebo effective with dogs and if there are results, I think it's
fairly clear that they are do to the intervention. I've seen certain
herbal, vitamin, accupressure and chiropractic procedures result in
SIGNIFICANT changes with some types of problems.

I now do take a regiment of supplements. Hard to tell if they're
working, but for one, I've never had any trouble with my back.

Willi

[Tim J.]

"Wolfgang" wrote...
<snip>
> Well, be sure to wash your head before handling foodstuffs........we
> know where it's been, don't we?

Is that copyrighted? :)
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

[Allen Epps]

In article >, Greg Pavlov
> wrote:

> On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 11:34:52 -0700, Willi > wrote:
>
> >
> >I now do take a regiment of supplements. Hard to tell if they're
> >working, but for one, I've never had any trouble with my back.
>
> I believe that many back problems originate from
> atrophy of muscles through lack of exercise, etc,
> plus too much poundage. My back stands up much
> better to a long day of casting when I've been
> working out (something I should do a lot more of...)

A couple of years ago I was having a lot of lower back pain after
fishing for several hours. I threw some reverse crunches (about three
sets of 15 ) in my workout three time a week and after a month or so no
more problems. Of course getting a six pack on the front where my keg
is now is another issue entirely!
Allen

[Wolfgang]

"Tim J." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wolfgang" wrote...
> <snip>
> > Well, be sure to wash your head before handling
foodstuffs........we
> > know where it's been, don't we?
>
> Is that copyrighted? :)

Not to the best of my knowledge.

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang]

"Willi" > wrote in message
...

> Susan is a strong believer in holistic medicine. I was very
skeptical
> until I started to see results in our dogs. I don't think there can
be a
> placebo effective with dogs and if there are results, I think it's
> fairly clear that they are do to the intervention. I've seen certain
> herbal, vitamin, accupressure and chiropractic procedures result in
> SIGNIFICANT changes with some types of problems.

Despite Cullen's remarkable recovery I believe that testimonial
evidence alone is not enough to be conclusive. However, rejecting it
out of hand is every bit as stupid as swallowing it whole. The spinal
column is horribly complex (as is every other system in living
organisms) and is not a thing to be ****ed with lightly. Personally,
if I had a serious back problem I'd want to do a whole lot more
research before I'd let a chiropractor......or a surgeon.....touch it.

On the whole, I remain much more impressed by herbal remedies,
accupuncture, and other non-invasive and non-brutal therapies. I
don't know how good their cure rates are....though there can be no
doubt that they DO effect some cures....but at the very least, you can
rest assured that none of them will sever your spinal cord while
you're waiting and trying to figure out which arrogant fool you will
eventually have to trust your life to.

> I now do take a regiment of supplements. Hard to tell if they're
> working, but for one, I've never had any trouble with my back.

Cigarettes and beer have done it for me. Unorthodox, to be sure, but
a boy's gotta be an ungrateful idiot to argue with a successful
regimen. :)

Wolfgang

[Scott Seidman]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in news:btf5lc$6fqtg$1@ID-
205717.news.uni-berlin.de:

> Despite Cullen's remarkable recovery I believe that testimonial
> evidence alone is not enough to be conclusive. However, rejecting it
> out of hand is every bit as stupid as swallowing it whole. The spinal
> column is horribly complex (as is every other system in living
> organisms) and is not a thing to be ****ed with lightly. Personally,
> if I had a serious back problem I'd want to do a whole lot more
> research before I'd let a chiropractor......or a surgeon.....touch it.
>
>

Very recently published studies have shown that spinal fusions are not as
efficacious as laminectomies, and both are not much more successful at
resolving back pain than therapy.

Scott

[rw]

Greg Pavlov wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 11:34:52 -0700, Willi > wrote:
>
>
>>I now do take a regiment of supplements. Hard to tell if they're
>>working, but for one, I've never had any trouble with my back.
>
>
> I believe that many back problems originate from
> atrophy of muscles through lack of exercise, etc,
> plus too much poundage. My back stands up much
> better to a long day of casting when I've been
> working out (something I should do a lot more of...)

I can chop wood or ski or shovel snow for hours, but after a few hours
of fishing my upper back starts killing me (muscular pain around my
shoulder blades). I think it's caused by a combination of two things.

First, carrying all my gear in a vest gets uncomfortable, no matter how
careful I am to balance and lighten the load. I've been considering
trying a chest pack, even though I think they look dorky. I look dorky
enough as it is.

Second, I tend to get tense when I fish, with my shoulders hunched over
while I'm staring intensely at my dry fly or indicator. When I notice
myself doing this and then relax the pain goes away, but a few casts
later I'm right back at it.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[Ken Fortenberry]

rw wrote:
> ...
> Second, I tend to get tense when I fish, with my shoulders hunched over
> while I'm staring intensely at my dry fly or indicator. When I notice
> myself doing this and then relax the pain goes away, but a few casts
> later I'm right back at it.

You're just not cut out to be an outdoorsman. Denial is not a river
in Egypt, dearie. Why don't you take up something more in tune with
your nature, like interior decorating or hair dressing.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[rw]

Scott Seidman wrote:
>
> Very recently published studies have shown that spinal fusions are not as
> efficacious as laminectomies, and both are not much more successful at
> resolving back pain than therapy.

As someone who has had both a laminectomy and a fusion (in my neck), my
experience is very different. I first had the laminectomy because
"fusion" sounded too extreme (I feared walking around like
Frankenstein), even though my surgeon told me the problem would probably
reoccur. It did, a few years later, and big time. I then had a fusion of
three vertebrae (same surgeon) and it completely took care of the
problem up to this time. The decreased flexibility in my neck is not
nearly as bad as I feared. The fusion might be contributing to my
upper-back problems while fishing (described in another post), but at
least I don't have constant, excruciating pain in my arm and atrophied
muscles.

The recuperation from the fusion was a bitch, though.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[rw]

Ken Fortenberry wrote:

> rw wrote:
>
>> ... Second, I tend to get tense when I fish, with my shoulders hunched
>> over while I'm staring intensely at my dry fly or indicator. When I
>> notice myself doing this and then relax the pain goes away, but a few
>> casts later I'm right back at it.
>
>
> You're just not cut out to be an outdoorsman. Denial is not a river
> in Egypt, dearie. Why don't you take up something more in tune with
> your nature, like interior decorating or hair dressing.
>

Gee, that would suck. Would I have to move to Illinois, too?

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[Ken Fortenberry]

rw wrote:
> Ken Fortenberry wrote:
>>
>> You're just not cut out to be an outdoorsman. Denial is not a river
>> in Egypt, dearie. Why don't you take up something more in tune with
>> your nature, like interior decorating or hair dressing.
>
> Gee, that would suck. Would I have to move to Illinois, too?

I hear some do it that way. No, sweetie, the Bay Area is PERFECT.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Scott Seidman]

rw > wrote in
m:

> Scott Seidman wrote:
>>
>> Very recently published studies have shown that spinal fusions are
>> not as efficacious as laminectomies, and both are not much more
>> successful at resolving back pain than therapy.
>
> As someone who has had both a laminectomy and a fusion (in my neck),
> my experience is very different. I first had the laminectomy because
> "fusion" sounded too extreme (I feared walking around like
> Frankenstein), even though my surgeon told me the problem would
> probably reoccur. It did, a few years later, and big time. I then had
> a fusion of three vertebrae (same surgeon) and it completely took care
> of the problem up to this time. The decreased flexibility in my neck
> is not nearly as bad as I feared. The fusion might be contributing to
> my upper-back problems while fishing (described in another post), but
> at least I don't have constant, excruciating pain in my arm and
> atrophied muscles.
>
> The recuperation from the fusion was a bitch, though.
>

I just checked, and my memory was slightly off, even though I only read the
article a few days ago (my memory really sucks lately). I overstated the
finding about neither being much better than therapy, but the article did
say that experts feel some patients would be better off without surgery.

Check out the article-- interesting stuff
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/31/business/31BACK.html?pagewanted=1

Basically, it suggests that fusion is carried out more often than
laminectomy because insurance reimbursement is more generous for that
procedure. Also, the biggest maker of spinal fusion hardware is being
investigated for kickbacks to surgeons.

Personally, I think that both procedures might be obsoleted by disc
prosthetics, or possibly some tissue engineering of the discs, in the next
two or three decades.

Scott

[Wolfgang]

"rw" > wrote in message
m...
> Scott Seidman wrote:
> >
> > Very recently published studies have shown that spinal fusions are not
as
> > efficacious as laminectomies, and both are not much more successful at
> > resolving back pain than therapy.
>
> As someone who has had both a laminectomy and a fusion (in my neck), my
> experience is very different. I first had the laminectomy because
> "fusion" sounded too extreme (I feared walking around like
> Frankenstein), even though my surgeon told me the problem would probably
> reoccur. It did, a few years later, and big time. I then had a fusion of
> three vertebrae (same surgeon) and it completely took care of the
> problem up to this time. The decreased flexibility in my neck is not
> nearly as bad as I feared. The fusion might be contributing to my
> upper-back problems while fishing (described in another post), but at
> least I don't have constant, excruciating pain in my arm and atrophied
> muscles.
>
> The recuperation from the fusion was a bitch, though.

All of which demonstrates clearly enough that the interplay of problems and
potential palliatives or solutions is a great deal more complex than the
health care consumer realizes or, generally, is capable of dealing with
confidently. As a matter of fact, the same could be said for health care
providers (of every ilk) were it not for the fact that confidence comes all
too easily to so many of them......what the hell, it ain't their back.

The good news is that there IS a one size fits all foolproof solution to ALL
health care problems.......it resides somewhere in Florid, if I'm not
mistaken.

Wolfgang

[Scott Seidman]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in
:

> The good news is that there IS a one size fits all foolproof solution
> to ALL health care problems.......it resides somewhere in Florid, if
> I'm not mistaken.
>
> Wolfgang
>

Yup. If the Jewish Mafia can't fix a problem, there must be no solution!

Scott

[rw]

Ken Fortenberry wrote:
> rw wrote:
>
>> Ken Fortenberry wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You're just not cut out to be an outdoorsman. Denial is not a river
>>> in Egypt, dearie. Why don't you take up something more in tune with
>>> your nature, like interior decorating or hair dressing.
>>
>>
>> Gee, that would suck. Would I have to move to Illinois, too?
>
>
> I hear some do it that way. No, sweetie, the Bay Area is PERFECT.

For the record, I'm a resident and property owner and registered voter
in Stanley, Idaho, population 100. I also carry resident Idaho fishing
and hunting and driver's licenses. I also hold elective office as City
Councilman. My proper title is The Honorable Stephen Thomas Barnard. :-)

(No ****, I get Christmas cards addressed that way. It's kind of
embarrassing.)

In short, I'm an Idaho resident by any measure (going on five years),
although I lived in the Bay Area for quite some time and I still own
property in Menlo Park. It was a very good investment.

I've found that politics in a tiny, rural community is fraught with
danger and aggravation, and the pay is inconsequential, but it's
EXTREMELY interesting.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[Wayne Harrison]

"rw" > wrote

I also hold elective office as City
> Councilman. My proper title is The Honorable Stephen Thomas Barnard. :-)
>
> (No ****, I get Christmas cards addressed that way. It's kind of
> embarrassing.)

no, it isn't. you are proud of it. i can't abide bull****.

[Wolfgang]

"Scott Seidman" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
> "Wolfgang" > wrote in
> :
>
> > The good news is that there IS a one size fits all foolproof solution
> > to ALL health care problems.......it resides somewhere in Florid, if
> > I'm not mistaken.
> >
> > Wolfgang
> >
>
> Yup. If the Jewish Mafia can't fix a problem, there must be no solution!

Molotov! :)

Wolfgang
who knew the yiddish lessons would pay off some day.

[walt winter]

Wolfgang wrote:

> Cigarettes and beer have done it for me. Unorthodox, to be sure, but
> a boy's gotta be an ungrateful idiot to argue with a successful
> regimen. :)
>
> Wolfgang
>
>


hear... hear.... HEAR!

wolf, that has been my prescription for years... as i near 1/2 a
century (as you do my friend).... i begin to have doubts
concerning this "masculine diet."

our good, perverse, yet faithful buddy, sir opus mcdopus, has
sworn off both.... in doing so, he got laid.... or so he says....
(the jibe is... well ****, out of respect for my dependable and
on time, most times, fishin' buddy, i jest won't go there....)

if true.... i shall follow suit .... however and the required
inclusionary "but", wisconsin cheese and california wines shall
remain optional....

yer pal in the old north state... errr.... ypitonc

wally... (ask jeff to send ya a "surrealistic" nc coastal jpg ;-)

[Charlie Choc]

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:15:00 GMT, "Wayne Harrison"
> wrote:

> no, it isn't. you are proud of it. i can't abide bull****.
>
Aw c'mon Wayno, he didn't say he was ashamed of it, just embarrassed
by the title on Christmas cards. Proud and embarrassed aren't mutually
exclusive.
--
Charlie...

[rw]

Wayne Harrison wrote:
>
> no, it isn't. you are proud of it. i can't abide bull****.

In true fact, I'm happy for the honorifics to be restricted to Christmas
cards. It's comical. It makes me feel like I should be wearing a robe
and a powdered wig. You can just call me Citizen Barnard. :-)

I am proud, however, to have been elected by a majority of the voters in
Stanley. (We don't have an Electoral College here.)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[Wayne Harrison]

"rw" > wrote in message
m...
> Wayne Harrison wrote:
> >
> > no, it isn't. you are proud of it. i can't abide bull****.
>
> In true fact, I'm happy for the honorifics to be restricted to Christmas
> cards. It's comical. It makes me feel like I should be wearing a robe
> and a powdered wig. You can just call me Citizen Barnard. :-)
>
> I am proud, however, to have been elected by a majority of the voters in
> Stanley. (We don't have an Electoral College here.)


well, thanks for the honesty.

wayno

[Wolfgang]

"walt winter" > wrote in message
...
> Wolfgang wrote:
>
> > Cigarettes and beer have done it for me. Unorthodox, to be sure, but
> > a boy's gotta be an ungrateful idiot to argue with a successful
> > regimen. :)
> >
> > Wolfgang
> >
> >
>
>
> hear... hear.... HEAR!
>
> wolf, that has been my prescription for years... as i near 1/2 a
> century (as you do my friend)....

Uh uh, sport, I ain't doin' no such thing. :) ......um....I mean.....
:(

> i begin to have doubts
> concerning this "masculine diet."
>
> our good, perverse, yet faithful buddy, sir opus mcdopus, has
> sworn off both.... in doing so, he got laid.... or so he says....
> (the jibe is... well ****, out of respect for my dependable and
> on time, most times, fishin' buddy, i jest won't go there....)
>
> if true.... i shall follow suit .... however and the required
> inclusionary "but", wisconsin cheese and california wines shall
> remain optional....
>
> yer pal in the old north state... errr.... ypitonc

Sheesh! Nobody listens! I just meant that it was good for my BACK. The
rest of me, if the evidence is to be believed, is pretty much turning into a
malted **** shake. :(

Still, I'll be pleased as punch to share a bottle and a brie with ya.
:)

> wally... (ask jeff to send ya a "surrealistic" nc coastal jpg ;-)

HEY, JEFFIE!

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...
>
> "walt winter" > wrote in message
> ...

> > wolf, that has been my prescription for years... as i near 1/2 a
> > century (as you do my friend)....
>
> Uh uh, sport, I ain't doin' no such thing. :) ......um....I mean.....
> :(

Um......belay that. In the interests of clarity and complete disclosure, I
should point out that I am indeed approaching a 1/2 century
mark.....um.....it just ain't my first.

Wolfgang
not that i'm all that close to the second but.....well, it ain't getting any
further away either. :(

[walt winter]

Wolfgang wrote:
>
> Still, I'll be pleased as punch to share a bottle and a brie with ya.
> :)

anytime....

>
>
>>wally... (ask jeff to send ya a "surrealistic" nc coastal jpg ;-)
>
>
> HEY, JEFFIE!
>
> Wolfgang
>
>

i culdnuh wait.... i sent ya duh "original" privately ;-)

--wally

[rb608]

"Wayne Harrison" > wrote in message
> "rw" > wrote
>
> I also hold elective office as City
> > Councilman. My proper title is The Honorable Stephen Thomas Barnard. :-)
> >
> > (No ****, I get Christmas cards addressed that way. It's kind of
> > embarrassing.)
>
> no, it isn't. you are proud of it. i can't abide bull****.

My one brief brush with local politics sounds similar (even though I didn't
get past the primary). Just because I was willing to step up and put myself
on the line for the good of the party, I was, inexplicably, part of the "in"
crowd and was invited to heady political functions and got to party and
press the flesh with the state party powerful, even the governor. Even
among folks who'd known me a while, I became more than the person I used to
be and received more respect than I thought I deserved. Embarassing? Maybe
a little; but mostly it was strange and fun and intoxicating. I sort of
miss it; but I'm also kinda glad I didn't get used to it.

Joe (45%) F.

[Wayne Knight]

"Joe McIntosh" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> >Or why a hospital trip gets billed for double the acceptable medicare
rate.
> They charge the overcharge off as a bad debt and can show medicare how
much
> money they lost this year in order to get a higher rate next year.
>

Sorry Joe, it is not written off as a bad debt, it is written off as a
"contractual adjustment". Might be the same result but is a whole different
handling, thanks to the big bad Medicare rules. Hospital pricing is AFU but
I can assure you the amount of the write off between charges and payments is
not used to get a higher rate next year. If it was, the "industry" would
have raised rates even more.

[Joe McIntosh]

"Wayne Knight" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Joe McIntosh" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > >Or why a hospital trip gets billed for double the acceptable medicare
> rate.
> > They charge the overcharge off as a bad debt and can show medicare how
> much
> > money they lost this year in order to get a higher rate next year.
> >
>
> Sorry Joe, it is not written off as a bad debt, it is written off as a
> "contractual adjustment". Might be the same result but is a whole
different
> handling, thanks to the big bad Medicare rules. Hospital pricing is AFU
but
> I can assure you the amount of the write off between charges and payments
is
> not used to get a higher rate next year. If it was, the "industry" would
> have raised rates even more.
>
> Joe replies--can only go by what local hospital tells me when I tried to
understand the reason any company would charge twice what they expect to be
paid.
Or my ex-doctor who charged me $43 dollars for a flu shot under
Medicare--said just pay the $12 I could get shot for a local clinic. He
said he would write it off as bad dept and hopefully Medicare would raise
rate for flu shots next year.[ he has a 48 ft Hattreris for fishing in
tournaments so what does he know ] Like my local hospital promoting an
article in newspaper saying they lost 13 million on emergency clinic last
year--without mentioning the 12 million they were rebated by the federal
government.
You are in the business and know the truth but an interested citizen has a
hard time understanding most aspects of the medical world.