Cutting spey lines.

[Svend Tang-Petersen]

Have any of you tried your hands at this ?

Ive been using a 14' Orvis rod which has a somewhat soft action but

is a bit heavy, and recently got my hands on a new Powell 1409. This is

lighter but also faster so I was wondering if I should start dissecting

my line (Rio windcutter) removing 6-12" at a time until the action feels

better.

[Sierra fisher]

That is a pretty radical solution. Do you know the line weight recommended
for the rod, and the weight of the line? If you do, you can covert these
into grams, and see what portion of the line would equal the recommended
grams for the rod. Rio publishes all the specs for it's spey lines on its
web site.


"Svend Tang-Petersen" > wrote in message
...
> Have any of you tried your hands at this ?
>
> Ive been using a 14' Orvis rod which has a somewhat soft action but
>
> is a bit heavy, and recently got my hands on a new Powell 1409. This is
>
> lighter but also faster so I was wondering if I should start dissecting
>
> my line (Rio windcutter) removing 6-12" at a time until the action feels
>
> better.
>
>
>


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[Peter Charles]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:53:45 -0800, Svend Tang-Petersen
> wrote:

>Have any of you tried your hands at this ?
>
>Ive been using a 14' Orvis rod which has a somewhat soft action but
>
>is a bit heavy, and recently got my hands on a new Powell 1409. This is
>
>lighter but also faster so I was wondering if I should start dissecting
>
>my line (Rio windcutter) removing 6-12" at a time until the action feels
>
>better.
>
>

Nope, don't take that approach at all. Two basic problems - spey
lines, underhand shooting heads, Skagit lines, DT lines, long bellied
lines, short bellied lines, and whatever other kind of lines intended
for use on two handed rods have no uniform rating system. Unless you
know a particular line works on a particular rod, your guess is as
good as anyone else's. Never cut before you have gone through some
exhaustive testing on the waters you intend to fish with it.

Problem No. 2 is related to the Windcutter floater itself. Rio's
long-winded rating system is very confusing if you're new to it. The
WC 9/10/11 is really a 10 wt. with a grain weight of 650 spread over a
54.5 foot head (compare this with the AFTMA rating of 280 grains over
30' for a regular 10 wt.). The bulk of this weight resides in the
rearmost 20' section of the head with the tip section being quite
light. A slow rod might be able to cast only 40' of a WC but a faster
rod of the same rating will need the whole head out of the guides to
get a decent load. Slow rods also can benefit from a lot of top hand
in the power stroke but faster rods need a crisper, underhand stroke
and a higher stop. Add all of this together and your problem may be
more complex than a bit off the tip will cure.

I take it you Orvis is the TLS 14' - 9 wt. Correct? I have cast the
14' - 9wt. Orvis Clearwater (which I believe is the same blank
assembled off-shore) but not the Powell. The Orvis worked fine with
an Airflo Delta 9/10 so it'll be OK with the WC 9/10/11 as well. Both
it and the Powell should manage a 9/10/11 OK. Rio, on its site,
provides the line recommendations for the Orivs but doesn't mention
the Powell. I'd try the Powell with the entire head outside of the
guides to see if it loads OK. If the full WC is too light, then I'd
suggest the Airflo Delta Long 9/10 (preferred) or the Rio Midspey
9/10. If it's too heavy, then you're better off taking a 10' section
out of the middle step of the Windcutter (starts at 15' from the tip)
then creating a set of loops so you can join it together for the
Orvis, but use just the tip and belly for the Powell.

The Windcutter multi-tip version has these two loop points in this
section so, not only can the total grain weight of the head be
adjusted, but the length can also be modified to accomodate some of
the Skagit and Scandinavian type of casts that rely on shorter lines
to work. I like the multi-tip WC for this reason but I wouldn't touch
a WC floater with a barge pole.

If you plan on going out for another line and you don't want to spring
for a multi-tip version (and I do recommend them), then consider the
Airflo Delta instead. Its taper is less radical than the Windcutter
so it's a more fishable line over a broader range of distances and the
amount you cast can be easily adjusted, depending on the needs of the
rod. For example, when casting my 9 wt. Daiwa using a Delta 9/10, I
pull the end of the head down into the guides to my top hand, but when
I cast the same line on my Trilogy 9/10, I leave the entire head
outside of the guides. The Trilogy needs a bit more of a load so this
adjustment provides the adtional weight needed. However, this sort of
adjustment is not as easily accomplished with a Windcutter since it
compacts so much grain weight into the last 20'. Finding the sweet
spot with a WC can be a major PITA as a consequence. Its Goldilocks
zone is friggin' narrow. The Delta will also easily accept the use of
10' Polyleaders while the WC will totally wimp out and won't turn them
over. The WC has to be cut back to make use of Polyleaders or other
sinking tips.

Unfortunately, most sales people in fly shops don't know their ass
from their elbow when it comes to two-handers so they recommend the WC
as some sort of "beginners" line (it's usually the only one they know)
and can potentially screw their customer without meaning to. Unless
you know what kind of fishing the client will be doing and you have
first hand experience with the rod and the line, offering advice is a
dodgy business. Most of us rely on the Rio spey line recommendations
chart on their site but even that can be screwy. Their rating for my
Daiwa 9 wt. was spot on but they were completely out to lunch on my
Daiwa 11 wt. which makes we think they tried one rod in the series and
guessed on the rest. It didn't fill me with confidence. Their
guessing also cost me nearly a $100.00 in the purchase of the wrong
line (and given the current exchange rate, that's getting damn close
to a $100.00 in real money!!!!)

What we spey anglers have done in response, is to organize spey claves
across the land where we get together, not to fish, but to cast. We
need time on the water with a line and a rod before we can be sure
it'll do the job. At a spey clave, we get to try our hand at all
sorts of combinations. Back in October, I tried a few Hardy Gems with
their Mach 1 lines and didn't like them at all -- I thought they were
high priced junk. I then tried the 14' 9/10 with a Delta 9/10 last
month and, though I thought it better, I still didn't like it. I then
tried it with a Delta Long 9/10 and fell madly in love with it. That
extra 10' of head had transformed the rod into a lightweight cannon --
the other lines weren't working it as they were too light. As a
consequence, the rod felt very heavy to cast as it had to be thrashed
to get any distance. It's amazing sometimes, the difference a small
adjustment can make. An overloaded rod is hard to cast well, while an
underloaded rod needs to be thrashed to get distance. Both will feel
heavy. In contrast, a well loaded rod will cast 90'+ with very little
effort and will tolerate a broad range of styles and mistakes.

Good luck

Peter

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[Svend Tang-Petersen]

Thanks Peter.

[Peter Charles]

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:20:12 GMT, (Greg Pavlov)
wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:47:44 -0500, Peter Charles
> wrote:
>
>>...Unfortunately, most sales people in fly shops don't know their ass
>>from their elbow when it comes to two-handers so they recommend the WC
>>as some sort of "beginners" line (it's usually the only one they know)
>>and can potentially screw their customer without meaning to.
>
> The problem here may be the Rio catalog: "It is the
> best choice of line for those learning to spey cast..."
>

== Rant Mode On ==

Ya, and it's not even a good beginners line! Their marketing hype is
based on the notion that the short, heavy belly will punch out some
line despite whatever the beginner may do -- but it can also cause
beaucoup problems if the rod isn't loading properly because of the
amount of head beyond the guides isn't right for the rod. It's also
hard to learn to feel what the rod / line is doing given the
all-or-nothing nature of the line. This learning the feel of the rod
/ line is one of the biggest challenges a beginner faces. A Spey DT
is still the best tool made for learning how to do the traditional
Spey casts well. The old SA Spey lines or the Airflo Deltas make
better learning lines than the Rio WC, again because, like the Spey
DT, they are more predictable when making adjustments.

== Rant Mode Off ==

BTW, I was reaquainted with the old SA spey lines after a five year
hiatus -- they ain't bad!! :) There's precious little difference
between an SA Spey and an Airflo Delta Long in taper design (the
biggest difference -- the Airflo front taper is longer) and I got the
impression that they are a nice, tractable, all-round Spey line. I
don't remember the rods I used one on last month but they would've
inculded about half-a-dozen different 14' - 9 wts. I have
half-a-mind to buy one.



Peter

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[Bill Kiene]

Hi Svend,

I would also consider emailing Simon Gawesworth at Rio for some insight on
your situation.




--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA, USA
www.kiene.com








"Svend Tang-Petersen" > wrote in message
...
> Have any of you tried your hands at this ?
>
> Ive been using a 14' Orvis rod which has a somewhat soft action but
>
> is a bit heavy, and recently got my hands on a new Powell 1409. This is
>
> lighter but also faster so I was wondering if I should start dissecting
>
> my line (Rio windcutter) removing 6-12" at a time until the action feels
>
> better.
>
>
>

[Peter Charles]

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 02:04:43 GMT, (Greg Pavlov)
wrote:

>On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:05:09 -0500, Peter Charles
> wrote:
>
>>== Rant Mode On ==
>>
>>Ya, and it's not even a good beginners line! Their marketing hype is
>>based on the notion that the short, heavy belly will punch out some
>>line despite whatever the beginner may do -- but it can also cause
>>beaucoup problems if the rod isn't loading properly because of the
>>amount of head beyond the guides isn't right for the rod.
>
>
> I'm getting a better sense of all this - maybe -
> but so far I like the Windcutter for the 11.5'
> Loop. I am going to muck around with it some
> more, to try to get a more conscious sense of
> how it handles short casts. My favorite "small"
> spey line for my lighter/shorter pseudo-spey
> rods is the Rio salmon/steelhead line.


If your Loop is like my Loop, the fast, light tip will short cast a WC
better than a standard spey rod. I found that even about 10' of my
homemade shooting head loads the tip on my 8/9.

I found the WC 9/10/11 worked great on my 9 wt. provided the entire
head was out of the guides and provided I didn't put a fast sinking
Polyleader on it. Pull half the rear belly into the guides and it
sucked. I talked to people and exchanged posts with people on this
subject and there's no consensus -- some agree with me and some have
no problem with short casts. The difference may be the type of action
of the rod. The Daiwas have the standard spey, stiff-tipped,
progressive action while the Blues are more tippy. The Daiwas won't
do much with a light load. Maybe at the next clave, I'll search out
someone with a 7/8/9 and give it a go on the Blue. After all, the
Blues are made for short heads -- the action is designed to have the
butt energized more by the underhand casting motion and less by the
grains of the line. A long belly would probably just collapse the tip
on mine, while the same line on the Daiwa would just load it deeper
and it would blow it into the next area code.

A surprising number of GLers like that RIO S/AS line as it'll turnover
heavy tips and it's long 65' belly packs a lot of grains for an
overhead WF (I'm guessing at 600 for my WF-10-F). There's no problem
finding the sweet spot on it. It won't blow long casts like a real
spey line (front taper is too blunt and short -- the rest of the belly
is too light) but it is tractable over a broad range of shorter casts.
Too bad it isn't made anymore. I was using a WF-7-F S/AS on my Scott
when we fished the Catt and, despite the Scott being a pretty crappy
spey caster, I could still get into the running line on it. I might
dredge my WFD-10 back out and try it as a traditional line with a
light 15' tip on the end -- that'll give me an 80' head -- solves the
iced up guides problem.

Peter

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[Peter Charles]

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 20:30:17 GMT, (Greg Pavlov)
wrote:

>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 22:28:58 -0500, Peter Charles
> wrote:
>
>>
>>A surprising number of GLers like that RIO S/AS line as it'll turnover
>>heavy tips and it's long 65' belly packs a lot of grains for an
>>overhead WF (I'm guessing at 600 for my WF-10-F). There's no problem
>>finding the sweet spot on it. It won't blow long casts like a real
>>spey line (front taper is too blunt and short -- the rest of the belly
>>is too light) but it is tractable over a broad range of shorter casts.
>>Too bad it isn't made anymore.
>
>
> Are you sure ? It's in the latest catalog.
> GLers should like it because it casts far
> enough for most of the steelhead streams we
> fish, since most are in the 18-Mile Creek
> class. And with a rod like the Loop, which
> has oversized guides, you can shoot the line
> somewhat if you need to get it out a bit
> further.
>


Must still be available then -- somebody on the Speyclave said it was
discontinued. That's good then -- it's a very nice line and it works
great for ordinary nymphing.



Peter

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[Mike Connor]

Cutting Spey lines is easy. Filleting is the hard part.

TL
MC

[Peter Charles]

On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 22:34:38 +0100, "Mike Connor"
> wrote:

>Cutting Spey lines is easy. Filleting is the hard part.
>
>TL
>MC
>

acetone - fillets real easy afterward

Peter

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[Stephen Welsh]

Peter Charles > wrote in
:

> On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 22:34:38 +0100, "Mike Connor"
> > wrote:
>
>>Cutting Spey lines is easy. Filleting is the hard
>>part.
>>
>>TL
>>MC
>>
>
> acetone - fillets real easy afterward
>
> Peter
>


I've found hot water does a pretty good job too!

Steve (be careful dying lines fellas )

[Stephen Welsh]

(Greg Pavlov) wrote in news:3ff4d01e.59194727
@news.cis.dfn.de:

> My favorite "small"
> spey line for my lighter/shorter pseudo-spey
> rods is the Rio salmon/steelhead line.
>

So what do you blokes use in the way of special (if any) lines for overhead
casting these rods. (I've had a look at the spey pages etc ).

I'm starting out with a DT ('cos I have one laying around) and will
eventually make some heads once I've a handle on using it.

Following some advice from Peter (ta Peter :), gleaning info from other
posts (Greg), thinking about local conditions, the rod I picked up from
the carriers on Christmas eve is a 10 wt Daiwa Lochmor X 14'6".

Steve (Yet to cast it ... :( ...amazing how time slips away)

[Mike Connor]

"Stephen Welsh" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
. 1.4...
<SNIP>
> So what do you blokes use in the way of special (if any) lines for
overhead
> casting these rods. (I've had a look at the spey pages etc ).
<SNIP>

Practically everybody I know uses various "heads", most made up from
#12DT´s, some spliced up, others merely matched for length and weight. 45
feet is very popular ! ( You get two out of a "standard" DT!:))

TL
MC

[Peter Charles]

On 4 Jan 2004 21:31:39 GMT, Stephen Welsh
> wrote:

(Greg Pavlov) wrote in news:3ff4d01e.59194727
:
>
>> My favorite "small"
>> spey line for my lighter/shorter pseudo-spey
>> rods is the Rio salmon/steelhead line.
>>
>
>So what do you blokes use in the way of special (if any) lines for overhead
>casting these rods. (I've had a look at the spey pages etc ).
>
>I'm starting out with a DT ('cos I have one laying around) and will
>eventually make some heads once I've a handle on using it.
>
>Following some advice from Peter (ta Peter :), gleaning info from other
>posts (Greg), thinking about local conditions, the rod I picked up from
>the carriers on Christmas eve is a 10 wt Daiwa Lochmor X 14'6".
>
>Steve (Yet to cast it ... :( ...amazing how time slips away)
>

The DT uncut will be next to useless as an overhead line though it
will work OK with long line Spey technique. Almost all overhead work
with two-handers is done with shooting heads. Your 10 wt. will
probably overhead cast 500 to 650 grains quite nicely. The longer the
head, the heavier you should go, so a 24' - 500 grain Rio Big Boy
would work and so would an Airflo Expert 45' - 12 wt. T7 shooting head
(640 grains). Both these lines would feel about the same on the load
because of what I call the Wiggle - Stretch factor.

No doubt about 30 or so of our local denizens have now conjured up the
peeling off of Spandex from a wriggling, nubile nymph, but this is
really all about trying to accelerate all parts of the shooting head
at the same time. The longer the head, the harder this is to do. All
fly lines stretch under tension and pretty well all backcasts are not
perfectly straight so the stretch has to be taken up and the wiggles
straigtened out before the tip accelerates at the same rate as the
butt of the shooting head. As a reault, the average acceleration rate
for a short head is higher than that of a long head as it's easier to
overcome the Wiggle - Stretch of a short head vs. a long one. It's the
old F=MA business for if you can't accelerate as fast, you have to add
mass to end up at with same force.

I'd recommend starting out with a couple of Airflo Expert 45' - 12 wt.
heads plus some running line (about 100' feet). Use the underhand
casting stroke shown in the Speypages Anderson and Morgensten video
clips. A two-hander overhead cast is killed by too much top hand so
the vertical drop of the underhand technique keeps this tendency under
control. You need a very high, crisp, hard stop to generate distance
with this rod, but very little power. Given a chance it will
virtually cast itself and the 45' heads should manage 150' casts given
enough running line. Notice on the video that the top hand elbow is
kept close to the side -- that's the key. If you're throwing tailing
loops, you're applying too much power unnecessarily.

Have fun and let us know how you do.

Peter

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[Peter Charles]

On 4 Jan 2004 21:31:39 GMT, Stephen Welsh
> wrote:

(Greg Pavlov) wrote in news:3ff4d01e.59194727
:
>
>> My favorite "small"
>> spey line for my lighter/shorter pseudo-spey
>> rods is the Rio salmon/steelhead line.
>>
>
>So what do you blokes use in the way of special (if any) lines for overhead
>casting these rods. (I've had a look at the spey pages etc ).
>
>I'm starting out with a DT ('cos I have one laying around) and will
>eventually make some heads once I've a handle on using it.
>
>Following some advice from Peter (ta Peter :), gleaning info from other
>posts (Greg), thinking about local conditions, the rod I picked up from
>the carriers on Christmas eve is a 10 wt Daiwa Lochmor X 14'6".
>
>Steve (Yet to cast it ... :( ...amazing how time slips away)
>
Steve

Forgot a few things.

I may be preaching to the choir so forgive me if this is old news but
it wouldn't do to waltz in to this brave new world without some of
this stuff:

You've found www.speypages.com but have you also found the boards at
www.sexyloops.co.uk and http://www.flyfishingforum.com/speyclave/?
Both these boards have good discussions going on the technical issues
of two-handers - Sexyloops can get especially technical at times - but
there are local denizens lurking there that have a lot of experience
tossing flies on the end of two-handers in the surf. Three names that
comes to mind: "Maxg" who is a fellow countryman of yours and uses big
rods in the surf, "Juro", the North American CND distributor, east
coast striper guy, and originator of the Atlantis 1111 (11' - 11wt.)
surf rod, and "2handthesalt" who is another east coast striper guy.
The two-striper guys favour two-handers in the 11' to 12' range while
Maxg likes the 15 footers.

Your rod has a 10 wt. spey rating which works out to 12/13 wt.
overhead so judge your line buying accordingly. You're best to work
with grain weights rather than the AFTMA scale and remember that the
longer the head, the heavier it needs to be. Juro described dealing
with this issue on the Atlantis not that long ago on the
flyfishingforum.

Try and get your hands on the International Spey Casting Video put out
by Rio. Most of it won't be pertinent but Leif Stavmo's demos of
overhead and underhand casts are. Leif makes the important point that
long casts on the two-hander take very little effort. Adding power
just screws things up. The power stroke of the underhand cast is
exactly the same as that of the overhead cast. I'm doing my damnedest
to train in the underhand style because it works across the board.
Also, it pays to learn the Scandinavian style of underhand casting, as
there are times when there isn't sufficient room for an overhead
backcast. Last week, the Grand was so high that at Caledonia, I was
forced to stand on what little remained of the Gabion baskets above
water. Having had some practice at their methods, I was able to
manage as much as 90' on the double-Spey, using a very tiny D-Loop,
without tangling with the baskets or the bank behind me. After that
experience, I feel I can cast damn near anywhere. When it comes to
shooting heads, the Scandinavian method is where it's at. Some of
those boys are reported to have hit 180' or more on Spey casts.

About distance - the distances I mention might sound incredulous to
someone used to casting 30' or 40' but they're routine in the
two-hander world. I normally overhead cast in the 130' range with
exceptional casts running into the 140' and 150' range. When I
measure these casts, I lop off a few feet to allow for the inevitable
bends and squiggles in the line. The last time I hit 150', I had
about 163' out but it wasn't straight as the crosswind put a bend in
the line. Juro talks about routine 120' to 130' casts using factory
lines on the 11' Atlantis and 150' casts with specialised rigs.
Expect to cast over 100' within the first ten minutes or so of casting
the big stick. To put it in perspective, most single-handed rod
casters are happy with a maximum cast of 70' or 80' but when beginner
Spey anglers undergo instruction, they *start* off with 70' to 80'
casts.

Watch those Speypages video on Anderson and Morgensten as that
technique makes life with the two-hander oh so simple.




Peter

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[Steve W]

Peter Charles > wrote in message >...
> On 4 Jan 2004 21:31:39 GMT, Stephen Welsh

>
> You've found www.speypages.com but have you also found the boards at
> www.sexyloops.co.uk and http://www.flyfishingforum.com/speyclave/?
> Both these boards have good discussions going on the technical issues
> of two-handers - Sexyloops can get especially technical at times - but
> there are local denizens lurking there that have a lot of experience
> tossing flies on the end of two-handers in the surf. Three names that
> comes to mind: "Maxg" who is a fellow countryman of yours and uses big
> rods in the surf, "Juro", the North American CND distributor, east
> coast striper guy, and originator of the Atlantis 1111 (11' - 11wt.)
> surf rod, and "2handthesalt" who is another east coast striper guy.
> The two-striper guys favour two-handers in the 11' to 12' range while
> Maxg likes the 15 footers.
>

Thanks for that Peter, I'll look in on the board. Max (Max Garth)
and I have crossed paths occasionally on local boards ...
knew he was into big sticks but not the DHs ... should be able to get
hold of him without too much trouble.

It'll take me a day or two to absorb everything (getting over a week
in Tassie - *yawn*)


Thanks again for the advice chaps,

Steve

[Stephen Welsh]

Peter Charles > wrote in
:

> Have fun and let us know how you do.
>


Spooled up the 10 WT (turned out to be a WF afterall) and soon had that all
off the reel (over grass) and mostly out of the rod tip. Managed to nail
a couple of casts - talk about laid back ... suits me fine :-) As you
say, it probably needs a 12+ WT to load it properly

Having the 10 WT spooled allowed me try try it on the 8wt MPOS I'd
suspected of being underrated (had been using 9wt 30ft heads that were
perfect for the previous 8wt). Blasted the whole line out - noting a sweet
spot (actually a length of line out of the tip) where the whole thing
seemed effortless to cast. Using the heads I'd only been able to manage 70
feet or so on this rod. Says something about getting the loading right
(and the crappy rod rating system)

Now to rustle up some 12wts ...

Steve