Symposium Report

[Tom Littleton]

Attended the International Fly Tyers symposium in Somerset,NJ yesterday and
came out of it with mixed feelings. As always, it was good to see a lot of
familiar faces which I tend to only connect with once or twice a year. It was
good to see, albeit briefly, Lou Teletski from this little group. On the other
hand, I came away with a terrible deja-vu feeling. One sees the same "big name"
tyers, giving essentially the same presentations which they have presented for
years. I don't want to pick on any one individual, but geez, can't we see
something novel anymore? As always, there were many,many talented tyers, but
after one got past beautiful salmon flies, huge sal****er streamers and
elaborate nymphs, I thought the variety was a little slim. I came out of the
show thinking how nice it would be to see Peter Charles tie Spey Flies, Big
Dale tie bluegill bugs, Mike Connor tie Yorkshire patterns, etc, etc. Perhaps
the present company gets me spoiled, perhaps I am jaded, or merely getting old
and cranky. Are we at a plateau period in both fly angling and tying??
Tom

[daytripper]

On 23 Nov 2003 15:51:47 GMT, (Tom Littleton) wrote:

>Attended the International Fly Tyers symposium in Somerset,NJ yesterday and
>came out of it with mixed feelings. As always, it was good to see a lot of
>familiar faces which I tend to only connect with once or twice a year. It was
>good to see, albeit briefly, Lou Teletski from this little group. On the other
>hand, I came away with a terrible deja-vu feeling. One sees the same "big name"
>tyers, giving essentially the same presentations which they have presented for
>years. I don't want to pick on any one individual, but geez, can't we see
>something novel anymore? As always, there were many,many talented tyers, but
>after one got past beautiful salmon flies, huge sal****er streamers and
>elaborate nymphs, I thought the variety was a little slim. I came out of the
>show thinking how nice it would be to see Peter Charles tie Spey Flies, Big
>Dale tie bluegill bugs, Mike Connor tie Yorkshire patterns, etc, etc. Perhaps
>the present company gets me spoiled, perhaps I am jaded, or merely getting old
>and cranky. Are we at a plateau period in both fly angling and tying??
> Tom

Judging from my fairly extensive f'f'ing and f't'ing book collection, it has
been thus for a few decades...

/daytripper (really, what's so "new" in the last 30 years of flyfishing?)

[Stan Gula]

"Tom Littleton" > wrote in message
...
> I came out of the
> show thinking how nice it would be to see Peter Charles tie Spey Flies,
Big
> Dale tie bluegill bugs, Mike Connor tie Yorkshire patterns, etc, etc.
Perhaps
> the present company gets me spoiled(1), perhaps I am jaded(2), or merely
getting old
> and cranky(3). Are we at a plateau period in both fly angling and tying??
> Tom

(1) not hardly<g>

(2) jaded isn't the right word - pragmatic might be. I mean, once you can
tie the dozen critical flies you always use, and the hundred or so variants
you use sometimes, what else is there. All that's left is fussy frills that
have no real utility. Like putting a chipotle glaze on a meatloaf - yeah,
you can get $20 a plate for that in New York, but it's still freakin'
meatloaf.

(3) well, yeah, there's that. Application of mass quantities of ethanol can
help, not with the old, but certainly with the crank.

[Larry]

> (1) not hardly<g>

hee hee hee

> (2) jaded isn't the right word - pragmatic might be. I mean, once you can
> tie the dozen critical flies you always use, and the hundred or so variants
> you use sometimes, what else is there. All that's left is fussy frills that
> have no real utility. Like putting a chipotle glaze on a meatloaf - yeah,
> you can get $20 a plate for that in New York, but it's still freakin'
> meatloaf.

Yeah, but you CALL it something else, so no one KNOWS that!!


> (3) well, yeah, there's that. Application of mass quantities of ethanol can
> help, not with the old, but certainly with the crank.

Last thing I'M GONNA DO is apply ethanol to MY crank!!

[Tom Littleton]

daytripper asks:
>really, what's so "new" in the last 30 years of flyfishing?

if you take it back that far, quite a bit. On the angling side, there is much
more variety in rod actions, wide arbor reels are more readily available,
fluorocarbon leaders and new line tapers abound. From the tying standpoint,
hardly anything had been done by 1970 with either CDC, antron or snowshoe
rabbit(Betters aside in the latter). Sal****er patterns were in their infancy,
warmwater patterns likewise. I could ramble on here, but suffice it to say, I
can't agree with you on this premise.
Tom

[Tom Littleton]

Stan notes:
> I mean, once you can
>tie the dozen critical flies you always use, and the hundred or so variants
>you use sometimes, what else is there?

I guess it may have to do with the first 15 years of my tying
experience(1978-93, to pigeonhole the period). As you say, one tends to perfect
the necessary stuff, but at seemingly frequent intervals, something new(at
least to me) would literally change things substantially. Obvious things at
times, like meteoric rise in hackle quality, ready availability of snowshoe
rabbit feet,
proliferation of various sparkle yarns. Other things less obvious would come
along as well. Sure, as Dave T indicated, things don't really change in many
respects, we are still tying,lashing and gluing stuff to hooks in a feeble
attempt to entice fish, but I still sense a pause, or maybe a retrenchment in
the field. My main beef with the show was more that we have a range of creative
souls out there, and that it is a shame that showgoers have to shell out 10 or
12 bucks to see the exact same presentations, with the same slides and demos
for godsakes, year after year. One "star" yesterday presented, literally word
for word, the same freaking hour-long lecture which he had for the prior two
years. That, to my mind, is a disgrace, both for that individual(whose tying
skills I respect highly), and the sponsors of the show(respect for whom is
starting to diminish).
Tom

[Willi]

daytripper wrote:


>
> Judging from my fairly extensive f'f'ing and f't'ing book collection, it has
> been thus for a few decades...
>
> /daytripper (really, what's so "new" in the last 30 years of flyfishing?)


My list of things that I think have improved in a meaningful way (some
are "new" things - some just better):

Waders

Tippet

Trout populations

The water quality

Wider range of materials used in fly tying



New things that pretty much irrelevant to me:

Bigger selection of tackle and other assorted doodads



Things that I think have gotten worse:

The crowds

Too much reliance on dead drift nymphing


Willi

[Stan Gula]

"Tom Littleton" > wrote in message
...
> Stan notes:
> > I mean, once you can
> >tie the dozen critical flies you always use, and the hundred or so
variants
> >you use sometimes, what else is there?
>
> I guess it may have to do with the first 15 years of my tying
> experience(1978-93, to pigeonhole the period). As you say, one tends to
perfect
> the necessary stuff, but at seemingly frequent intervals, something new(at
> least to me) would literally change things substantially. Obvious things
at
> times, like meteoric rise in hackle quality, ready availability of
snowshoe
> rabbit feet,
> proliferation of various sparkle yarns. Other things less obvious would
come
> along as well. Sure, as Dave T indicated, things don't really change in
many
> respects, we are still tying,lashing and gluing stuff to hooks in a feeble
> attempt to entice fish, but I still sense a pause, or maybe a retrenchment
in
> the field. My main beef with the show was more that we have a range of
creative
> souls out there, and that it is a shame that showgoers have to shell out
10 or
> 12 bucks to see the exact same presentations, with the same slides and
demos
> for godsakes, year after year. One "star" yesterday presented, literally
word
> for word, the same freaking hour-long lecture which he had for the prior
two
> years. That, to my mind, is a disgrace, both for that individual(whose
tying
> skills I respect highly), and the sponsors of the show(respect for whom is
> starting to diminish).
> Tom

OK, my mistake, you're jaded. <g>. I guess these guys depend on turnover
in the audience. I watch AK tie every chance I get, and even though I'm in
awe of the seeming ease with which he ties on those hen neck wings, I still
don't tie that style. But I'll stand in the crowd, listening to the oohs
and aahs, and thinking to myself, why not just use a clump of CDC or
snowshoe which won't look so pretty but will hold up and float and work just
fine. (Now if somebody would give me a half dozen awesome quality hen necks
like AK has, maybe I'd change my mind...)

The only tyer I really enjoy watching at the shows is Gartside, because
there's a lot more to the show than the flies. How can a guy who ties
gurglers and CPF flies ever be boring.

[Tim J.]

"Stan Gula" wrote...
> "Tom Littleton" wrote...
> > I came out of the
> > show thinking how nice it would be to see Peter Charles tie Spey Flies,
> Big
> > Dale tie bluegill bugs, Mike Connor tie Yorkshire patterns, etc, etc.
> Perhaps
> > the present company gets me spoiled(1), perhaps I am jaded(2), or merely
> getting old
> > and cranky(3). Are we at a plateau period in both fly angling and tying??
> > Tom
>
> (1) not hardly<g>

Spoiled like rotten eggs, perhaps.

> (2) jaded isn't the right word - pragmatic might be. I mean, once you can
> tie the dozen critical flies you always use, and the hundred or so variants
> you use sometimes, what else is there. All that's left is fussy frills that
> have no real utility. Like putting a chipotle glaze on a meatloaf - yeah,
> you can get $20 a plate for that in New York, but it's still freakin'
> meatloaf.

El pan de carne con la salsa de chipolte?

> (3) well, yeah, there's that. Application of mass quantities of ethanol can
> help, not with the old, but certainly with the crank.

Hear tell that OPS works for that as well.

I must say that one of the most fun experiences I've had recently (shows how
dull like can be) was hosting a ROFF fly swap and seeing all of the innovative
flies that came in. There are a lot of really good tyers [sic] in this group,
and I have a hard time thinking that some of these "pros" have an edge over
them.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

[Tom Littleton]

Stan writes:
>The only tyer I really enjoy watching at the shows is Gartside, because
>there's a lot more to the show than the flies. How can a guy who ties
>gurglers and CPF flies ever be boring.

......hmm, maybe that is why I spent a half hour hanging out with him yesterday.
Finally got the guy's signature on my copies of his little books. Hell, forget
the CPF flies, anyone who sells erotic angling prints is cool with me!
Tom

[Hooked]

"Willi" > wrote in message
...
>
> My list of things that I think have improved in a meaningful way (some
> are "new" things - some just better):
>
> The water quality
>
> Willi
>

Haven't been keeping up with the environmental news have you.

With the bu**** coming out of the White House these days, the quality of our
lakes and streams will be like Lake Erie 30-40 years ago. But then as
"Sportsmen" we really don't give as damn if they weaken the "Clean Water
Act" do we?

[Willi]

Hooked wrote:

> "Willi" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>My list of things that I think have improved in a meaningful way (some
>>are "new" things - some just better):
>>
>>The water quality
>>
>>Willi

>
>
> Haven't been keeping up with the environmental news have you.
>
> With the bu**** coming out of the White House these days, the quality of our
> lakes and streams will be like Lake Erie 30-40 years ago. But then as
> "Sportsmen" we really don't give as damn if they weaken the "Clean Water
> Act" do we?


I'm not saying it's going to stay that way and I do think that weakening
the Clean Water Act will put an end to that improvement. However, water
quality, in general, today in the U.S. is much better than it was when I
was young.

Willi

[Tom Littleton]

hooked asks of Willi:
>Haven't been keeping up with the environmental news have you.

>But then as
>"Sportsmen" we really don't give as damn if they weaken the "Clean Water
>Act" do we?

I don't think Willi was expressing a view of the future, just what has occurred
over the past 30 years. FWIW, the more people who recognize the improvements
SINCE the Clean Water Act was implemented, the better off we will be. Clearly,
this administration, and many fellows within the Neocon movement could give a
rats ass about water quality, but that is another thread for another day.....
Tom

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

"Willi" > wrote in message
...

> My list of things that I think have improved in a meaningful way (some
> are "new" things - some just better):
>
> Waders
>
> Tippet
>
> Trout populations
>
> The water quality
>
> Wider range of materials used in fly tying
> Willi

You forgot ROFF!

Op --always the optimist--

[Wolfgang]

"Willi" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Hooked wrote:
>
> > "Willi" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>My list of things that I think have improved in a meaningful way (some
> >>are "new" things - some just better):
> >>
> >>The water quality
> >>
> >>Willi
>
> >
> >
> > Haven't been keeping up with the environmental news have you.
> >
> > With the bu**** coming out of the White House these days, the quality of
our
> > lakes and streams will be like Lake Erie 30-40 years ago. But then as
> > "Sportsmen" we really don't give as damn if they weaken the "Clean Water
> > Act" do we?
>
>
> I'm not saying it's going to stay that way and I do think that weakening
> the Clean Water Act will put an end to that improvement. However, water
> quality, in general, today in the U.S. is much better than it was when I
> was young.

Now, you SEE what it's like when somebody "seems" to be responding to what
you say but is, instead, merely using your presence as an excuse to give
vent to a half-baked political philosophy apropos of nothing? :)

Wolfgang
reflecting on how nice it is to stop in here from time to time in order to
get away from the rancorous nonsense over in ROFF.

[Hooked]

"Tom Littleton" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> but that is another thread for another day.....
> Tom



Not really.

This is something that we should not take for granted and it can't wait for
another day.

The time to act is now.

[vincent p. norris]

>Last thing I'M GONNA DO is apply ethanol to MY crank!!

Actually, it can be quite pleasant to apply ethanol to your crank,
provided you apply it to the *inside* of your crank, via the
alimentary canal.

vince

[Wolfgang]

"Hooked" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom Littleton" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > but that is another thread for another day.....
> > Tom
>
>
>
> Not really.
>
> This is something that we should not take for granted and it can't wait
for
> another day.
>
> The time to act is now.

I agree......wholeheartedly! People in general....and Americans, more
particularly....are all too willing to defer problems, however immediate
they may be, in hopes that someone else will take care of
them....someday....somehow....somewhere down the road. And every day we are
faced with horrendous problems which, if faced squarely when first brought
to the attention of the public, could have been dealt with in short order
with a minimum of fuss and bother. Take for example.....oh....say, people
who are incapable of reading a message on usenet and then formulating a
response that is in some way related to what was said in the original. Just
THINK of the heartache, expense, and time that could have been saved if
someone had simply gutted the fool before he had the chance to befoul an
entire newsgroup! It's a damned shame, it is. :(

Wolfgang

[Tom Littleton]

Hooked implores:
>The time to act is now.
>

exactly how? Give is a rest until the next election, and work yourself silly
next year getting someone new elected.
Tom

[Tom Littleton]

Wolfgang notes:
>Take for example.....oh....say, people
>who are incapable of reading a message on usenet and then formulating a
>response that is in some way related to what was said in the original.

Yeah!! What the hell was my original point, by the way? Oh yes, rejecting
daytripper's comment that nothing much had changed in flyfishing in the past 30
years! The more I think of that one, the more I can see his point....in the
large view, we are still doing the same essential thing as our predecessors of
the 19th century, merely tinkering with the details.
Perhaps what I am bothered by is a sort of ennui that has seemed to seep into
the attitude of many of the pros(Gartside, previously mentioned, is a notable
exception). One even sees it in the dealers, who showed a very predictable
range of tying materials. Only a few ventured into exotic or even
out-of-the-ordinary stuff.
Tom

[Larry]

>>Last thing I'M GONNA DO is apply ethanol to MY crank!!
>
>
> Actually, it can be quite pleasant to apply ethanol to your crank,
> provided you apply it to the *inside* of your crank, via the
> alimentary canal.

Sigh... I ALWAYS overlook the simple things...

=) Larry

[George Cleveland]

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:10:59 -0500, vincent p. norris > wrote:

>>Last thing I'M GONNA DO is apply ethanol to MY crank!!
>
>Actually, it can be quite pleasant to apply ethanol to your crank,
>provided you apply it to the *inside* of your crank, via the
>alimentary canal.
>
>vince
That reminds me of that old folk song "16 Beers in the Alimentary Canal".


g.c.

Aren't you sorry you mentioned it now?

[Wolfgang]

"Tom Littleton" > wrote in message
...
> Wolfgang notes:
> >Take for example.....oh....say, people
> >who are incapable of reading a message on usenet and then formulating a
> >response that is in some way related to what was said in the original.
>
> Yeah!! What the hell was my original point, by the way? Oh yes,
rejecting
> daytripper's comment that nothing much had changed in flyfishing in the
past 30
> years! The more I think of that one, the more I can see his point....in
the
> large view, we are still doing the same essential thing as our
predecessors of
> the 19th century, merely tinkering with the details.
> Perhaps what I am bothered by is a sort of ennui that has seemed to seep
into
> the attitude of many of the pros(Gartside, previously mentioned, is a
notable
> exception). One even sees it in the dealers, who showed a very predictable
> range of tying materials. Only a few ventured into exotic or even
> out-of-the-ordinary stuff.
> Tom

I think the problem (such as it is) is that fly fishing.....and,
consequently, various aspects of it, like fly tying.....is a mature
technology. A defining characteristic of mature technologies is that
radical innovations are rare, and become increasingly so. The last great
radical change in fly fishing that I can think of offhand is the advent of
synthetic composites for the construction of rods. Carbon fiber and boron
rods were the latest great refinement of that radical change, but fiberglass
was the real innovation, and that's been around for a long time now.....long
by the standards of modern technological change, anyway. While it's
certainly possible to imagine something coming along that's even better than
carbon fiber, it would be very difficult to articulate any way in which it
could much improve on what's available now.

This is even more true of fly tying. Today's fly dresser has available a
bewildering array of natural and synthetic materials that would exhaust more
than a lifetime to explore adequately. The same is true of styles,
techniques, and individual patterns. Virtually all of these "new"
materials, methods, and flies have been hailed in their time as the great
"miracle" fish catcher and, as anyone who has been at this for a while
knows, all have fallen considerably short of miraculous.....though some are
certainly better than others. But, in the long run, some of the old
standards are as good as they ever were, a lot of the new **** is nowhere
near as good as it is hyped to be, and a lot of the stuff in between comes
and goes, both in popularity and efficacy. Meanwhile, we live in a
world....at least those of us who live in the richer parts of the world or
are rich by the low standards of the rest....in which we are conditioned to
expect "newer and better" as some kind of a birthright. Chart the
innovative improvements in any laundry detergent that's been available for
the last fifty years or so, and it's impossible to escape the conclusion
that a single molecule of any of them will clean the universe from end to
end.

The truth is that there isn't a great deal of significant change on anything
like a regular basis. Things stay pretty much the same. This truth is
reflected, I think, in the endless, and for the most part nonsensical,
debates over the merits of one rod, material, fly, reel, wading shoe or what
have you, over another. As Jesuits and rabbinical students know (though you
will be hard pressed to get any of them to admit it) heated debates over
mind-numbing minutiae are the inevitable result of having nothing of greater
import to wrangle over, and this state of affairs is always the result of
stasis....read "stagnation".....read (for the purposes of technology)
"maturity".

A lot of people....probably the majority, I think...are eager for any sort
of information they can get when they first get into fly fishing.....or,
presumably, any other complex avocation. Most of us will subscribe to a
magazine...or two....or more....and pick up stray copies of others on
newsstands. We will haunt symposia, shows, clinics, and any other venue we
can get to....today, of course, there is also the internet. And, for a
couple of years, more or less, there is a surfeit of information and "new"
ideas that seems entirely too vast to absorb in a single lifetime. But,
after a time, most of us discover that there is very little that's really
new under the sun. That's when you begin to notice that this year's show
smells a lot like last year's.....and the one before that......

There's nothing wrong with all of that. It's merely an indication that
there is a limited supply of novelty and concrete objective information.
What's happened is that you've become an expert. Yes, a REAL
expert......there are tens......maybe hundreds....of thousands of us. It's
no big deal, and it IS demonstrable. After all, life and death debates over
excruciating minutiae that the rest of the world couldn't be paid enough to
care about is THE defining characteristic of an expert in any field.

You're a pro, Tom, deal with it. :)

Wolfgang

[Lat705]

Agree it was pretty much the same old thing. I was also dissapointed with the
vendors. E.g. I was looking for Jungle Cock. There were three vendors with it
and their selection was very small. The new stuff for me was watching Oliver
Edwards tie and Phil Camera with Larva Lace. Geting individular instruction
from Phil on tying his emerger and underlaying the material with flash made
going worth while. Never did get good results with Larva Lace and now I know
why. I understand from the guys I went with that Randy from Larva Lace also
did them some good.

Lou Teletski

[Wolfgang]

"George Cleveland" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:10:59 -0500, vincent p. norris >
wrote:
>
> >>Last thing I'M GONNA DO is apply ethanol to MY crank!!
> >
> >Actually, it can be quite pleasant to apply ethanol to your crank,
> >provided you apply it to the *inside* of your crank, via the
> >alimentary canal.
> >
> >vince
> That reminds me of that old folk song "16 Beers in the Alimentary Canal".
>
>
> g.c.
>
> Aren't you sorry you mentioned it now?

Load sixteen tuns and whattya get?

Wolfgang
twice the butt. :)

[George Cleveland]

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:56:16 -0600, "Wolfgang" > wrote:

>
>"Tom Littleton" > wrote in message
...
>> Wolfgang notes:
>> >Take for example.....oh....say, people
>> >who are incapable of reading a message on usenet and then formulating a
>> >response that is in some way related to what was said in the original.
>>
>> Yeah!! What the hell was my original point, by the way? Oh yes,
>rejecting
>> daytripper's comment that nothing much had changed in flyfishing in the
>past 30
>> years! The more I think of that one, the more I can see his point....in
>the
>> large view, we are still doing the same essential thing as our
>predecessors of
>> the 19th century, merely tinkering with the details.
>> Perhaps what I am bothered by is a sort of ennui that has seemed to seep
>into
>> the attitude of many of the pros(Gartside, previously mentioned, is a
>notable
>> exception). One even sees it in the dealers, who showed a very predictable
>> range of tying materials. Only a few ventured into exotic or even
>> out-of-the-ordinary stuff.
>> Tom
>
>I think the problem (such as it is) is that fly fishing.....and,
>consequently, various aspects of it, like fly tying.....is a mature
>technology. A defining characteristic of mature technologies is that
>radical innovations are rare, and become increasingly so. The last great
>radical change in fly fishing that I can think of offhand is the advent of
>synthetic composites for the construction of rods. Carbon fiber and boron
>rods were the latest great refinement of that radical change, but fiberglass
>was the real innovation, and that's been around for a long time now.....long
>by the standards of modern technological change, anyway. While it's
>certainly possible to imagine something coming along that's even better than
>carbon fiber, it would be very difficult to articulate any way in which it
>could much improve on what's available now.

*snippage*
>
>Wolfgang
>
>
A person can deal with fly tying materials and fly fishing equipment getting
predictable. Its when the fly fishing gets humdrum that its time to worry.

g.c.

[Hooked]

"Tom Littleton" > wrote in message
...
>
> exactly how? Give is a rest until the next election, and work yourself
silly
> next year getting someone new elected.
> Tom

Contact your elected officials and tell them you don't want to see your
favorite fishing hole become a waste disposal site for some big corporation.

There are those who will act, and those who will sit idly by until the next
election, hoping and praying that the rest of us will do what they should
have done in the first place but were too busy not wanting to hear about it.

[Tom Littleton]

hooked implores:
>Contact your elected officials and tell them you don't want to see your
>favorite fishing hole become a waste disposal site for some big corporation.

they are pretty good, thus far, at doing so.
PA has done, imho, a very good job to date.

>There are those who will act, and those who will sit idly by until the next
>election, hoping and praying that the rest of us will do what they should
>have done in the first place but were too busy not wanting to hear about it.

and then, there are those of us who tell others what to do in the context of an
irrelevant addition to a thread on fly tying.
As others have attempted to point out, take the soapbox elsewhere. Or, better
still, get outside and work to clean up whatever your favorite local stream is.
Sadly, the major polluters of most trout streams are farmers and small private
landowners in many cases. Now, shoo, you have work to do!
Tom

[Stan Gula]

"Hooked" > wrote in message
...
....
> Contact your elected officials and tell them you don't want to see your
> favorite fishing hole become a waste disposal site for some big
corporation.
....

With all due respect for your, and others' political opinions, could we
please try to keep ROFFT from becoming another heap of political posts?

[Ken Fortenberry]

Stan Gula wrote:
>
> With all due respect for your, and others' political opinions, could we
> please try to keep ROFFT from becoming another heap of political posts?

Yeah, everybody knows that fly fishermen, (excepting Big Dale, of course)
discuss politics over in roff. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Ernie]

"Ken Fortenberry" > wrote in message
.com...
> Stan Gula wrote:
> > With all due respect for your, and others' political opinions, could we
> > please try to keep ROFFT from becoming another heap of political posts?
>
> Yeah, everybody knows that fly fishermen, (excepting Big Dale, of course)
> discuss politics over in roff. ;-)
> Ken Fortenberry

I wonder if there is any chance of getting another ROFF news group for
discussion of off topic items?
Ernie

[Ken Fortenberry]

Ernie wrote:

> "Ken Fortenberry" > wrote in message
> .com...
>
>>Stan Gula wrote:
>>
>>>With all due respect for your, and others' political opinions, could we
>>>please try to keep ROFFT from becoming another heap of political posts?
>>
>>Yeah, everybody knows that fly fishermen, (excepting Big Dale, of course)
>>discuss politics over in roff. ;-)
>>Ken Fortenberry
>
>
> I wonder if there is any chance of getting another ROFF news group for
> discussion of off topic items?
> Ernie

There's always a chance. It might be a good idea to combine that group
with the group that discusses porcine aviation. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

[George Adams]

>From: "Ernie"

>I wonder if there is any chance of getting another ROFF news group for
>discussion of off topic items?

Well, we could, but then all these bastids would want to post fishing topics.




George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller

[George Cleveland]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:27:20 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
> wrote:

>Ernie wrote:
>
>> "Ken Fortenberry" > wrote in message
>> .com...
>>
>>>Stan Gula wrote:
>>>
>>>>With all due respect for your, and others' political opinions, could we
>>>>please try to keep ROFFT from becoming another heap of political posts?
>>>
>>>Yeah, everybody knows that fly fishermen, (excepting Big Dale, of course)
>>>discuss politics over in roff. ;-)
>>>Ken Fortenberry
>>
>>
>> I wonder if there is any chance of getting another ROFF news group for
>> discussion of off topic items?
>> Ernie
>
>There's always a chance. It might be a good idea to combine that group
>with the group that discusses porcine aviation. ;-)
>
>--
>Ken Fortenberry
>
Of course the real problem would be how would you switch from one group to the
other in the middle of a thread. One of the charms of ROFF is it's stream of
consciousness-ness.

g.c.

[Ernie]

"George Adams" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Ernie"
> >I wonder if there is any chance of getting another ROFF news group for
> >discussion of off topic items?
>
> Well, we could, but then all these bastids would want to post fishing
topics.
> George Adams

You are probably right. :)
Ernie

[Stephen Welsh]

(Tom Littleton) wrote in
:

> Perhaps what I am bothered by is a sort of ennui that has seemed
> to seep into the attitude of many of the pros(Gartside,
> previously mentioned, is a notable exception).

Could that ennui be brought about by feeling constrained to
present the "same ol' same ol' ", show-in show-out?
Whether self imposed because of a need to maintain an image,
sell something or because that is what the punters ask for,
it must wear a bit thin.

Perhaps the format of the demos needs to be changed:
I see the occasional picture of these "big" shows in a magazine,
it looks to me like the presentation is not far removed from a
"lecture" in a lot of cases - certainly the maximum number of
punters is reached. But what of interactivity with the audience?
Can Joe Blo ask for the Diptera du Jour to be tied,
a technique to be demonstrated, or suggest a pattern and
have the tyer produce prototypes till he gets it right?

Some tiers here take the attitude they're only going to tie (and
sell) their signature patterns. While its interesting to watch
for a while ... so what ... the interesting people are the ones
you can talk to and respond positively ( sometimes negatively )
to questions or requests. On this more intimate level fewer
people will be reached, but I think they'd be happier and feel
less like you (and I) do.

Perhaps a word to the organisers about more one-on-6 time
rather then 30-40 in an audience. (This is one of the great
things about my local shop - twice a year or so they have
someone of renown in for a day and you can usually sit down and
have a chat about anything related to FF while they tie a fly or
two. The same person on the hustings at a show can be quite ...
"different".)

> One even sees it
> in the dealers, who showed a very predictable range of tying
> materials. Only a few ventured into exotic or even
> out-of-the-ordinary stuff.
>

I reckon the time to see them at their best is the first
afternoon after setup - its all downhill from there - too much
in the way of affected smiles, feigned interest, bull**** and
beverage of choice will wear anyone down ;-)


Steve (who only goes to shows every other year now)

[Tom Littleton]

Steve notes:
> I see the occasional picture of these "big" shows in a magazine,
> it looks to me like the presentation is not far removed from a
> "lecture" in a lot of cases - certainly the maximum number of
> punters is reached. But what of interactivity with the audience?

depends on the tier, but some folks are pretty interactive with their audience.
Still, I think the variety in tyers could be purposely made a bit wider.
Tom

[Stephen Welsh]

(Tom Littleton) wrote in
:

> Still, I think the variety in tyers could be purposely made a
> bit wider.
>

Always ... the more the merrier. Alas, we don't have a lot of
variety at our shows either.

Steve

[Peter Charles]

On 23 Nov 2003 15:51:47 GMT, (Tom Littleton) wrote:

>Attended the International Fly Tyers symposium in Somerset,NJ yesterday and
>came out of it with mixed feelings. As always, it was good to see a lot of
>familiar faces which I tend to only connect with once or twice a year. It was
>good to see, albeit briefly, Lou Teletski from this little group. On the other
>hand, I came away with a terrible deja-vu feeling. One sees the same "big name"
>tyers, giving essentially the same presentations which they have presented for
>years. I don't want to pick on any one individual, but geez, can't we see
>something novel anymore? As always, there were many,many talented tyers, but
>after one got past beautiful salmon flies, huge sal****er streamers and
>elaborate nymphs, I thought the variety was a little slim. I came out of the
>show thinking how nice it would be to see Peter Charles tie Spey Flies, Big
>Dale tie bluegill bugs, Mike Connor tie Yorkshire patterns, etc, etc. Perhaps
>the present company gets me spoiled, perhaps I am jaded, or merely getting old
>and cranky. Are we at a plateau period in both fly angling and tying??
> Tom

We are probably at a stage where new ideas and materials give us far
more opportunity for creativity, but with that opportunity goes a rise
in our expectations in what will be produced. With the huge amount of
flies being tied today, the odds of producing something truly
revolutionary is virtually nil, yet all experiments build on what went
before. We're at a stage where we can only improve incrementally.
There's only so much that can be done with feathers on a hook.

Listen to the questions being asked at these shows and it's fairly
obvious why the level of tying is reduced to McFlies. Those demos
aren't for the likes of a Tom Littleton.

Peter

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[Larry]

> We're at a stage where we can only improve incrementally.

> There's only so much that can be done with feathers on a hook.


Too True, Peter.

I think that we who have been tying for decades find some of the new
patterns "interesting" but not nesessarily anything staggeringly
impressive. There are some new materials that have been pretty
interesting, but some of them don't lend themselves to patterns we
use/tie and so as interesting as they may be, they don't draw us in.

I tie many of the same patterns I've used for 35 years now, and I've
changed them slightly over the years to suit conditions, or to take
advantage of new materials where appropriate, but although I have a few
boxes filled with patterns I've picked up over the past 10 or so years,
I still have my 2-3 "go to" boxes and I'm willing to bet the same is
true for most of us.

Larry

[Brimbum]

Tom wrote:snip> One sees the same "big name"
>>tyers, giving essentially the same presentations which they have presented
>for
>>years. I don't want to pick on any one individual, but geez, can't we see
>>something novel anymore?

It is not all that easy to come up with something truly different. I like tying
the little foam spiders that I tie for bluegill, but there is nothing new
there. When I started tying in the late 1980's it was already common practice
to fold the foam over the back of the beetle and I am told that this is a
simple variation of Jack Gartside's Gurgler. I guess that could be true, but I
have often wondered who influenced Jack to use that technique or if he was the
first. In our part of the country, many years ago Doug Christian of the Saint
Louis area tied a fly he called the shoe fly that used a closed cell foam back
with a underbody of furry foam under twisted maribou, and round rubber legs..
Kyle Moppert of Baton Rouge learned to tie it from Doug. John Peterie learned
to tie it from Kyle, and started using the chrystal chenille for a body
material. I learned how to do the grizzly rubber legs from Eric Schmucker who
learned that technique from Al Troth. I tie the legs on the bug with a
technique that I developed myself without watching anyone else, but I am not so
naieve to believe that I am the first to do it that way. My latest version of
the fly is called "The Psychedelic Spider," and uses the multicolored foam that
Dave Mohnsen of Denver introduced us to with his Rainbow Beetle in a fly swap-
a year or so ago. I also use the chrystal chenille for the body material cause
the fish like it,and when I make the multi-colored legs I use at least three
different colored markers using the same "grizzly rubber leg technique" that I
learned from Eric. The inspiration for the fly came from comment that Day
Tripper made after seeing the rainbow beetle. Did I invent anything? No. It is
just a different combination of techniques. It is still a lot of fun. I have
never seen Doug tie the Shoe Fly and plan to have him show me how he ties it if
he is able to come to The Sowbug Roundup in a few months. I would like to get a
fly tied by each of these guys and see how far back I can get flies tied by all
those who influenced those with their techniques. I think it would make an
excellent display of the evolution of a fly. I just have not figured out how to
display all of them as I would prefer to preserve some brush or branches of
trees from the area each of these guys come from so that the bugs can look like
they were left in trees due to poor casting like I most often do. I tell guys
to decorate trees with the bugs when I give them away. For instance, Since Kyle
lives in Baton Rouge I suspect it should be a live oak branch that the fly
shares with some spanish moss. Since Dave is from thje Denver area, will I need
to collect some sage brush? I leave a lot of them in cat tails in East Texas.

I went to a conclave a couple of years ago the the keynote speaker and featured
tier used the same old tired and faded film he had used when I first say him
give that presentation in a fly shop in Ft Worth 15 years before. You would
think that since he had been making money off that presentation for so long he
could have at least shot new film.

I see more new creative thing things done with fur and feathers done by
teenagers than by crusty old farts like me. I have a lot of fun learning from a
dear friend's grandaughter who I have been tying with off and on since she was
6 years old and she is now 11 years old.

Have fun out there.

Big Dale

[Tom Littleton]

Dale notes:
>I went to a conclave a couple of years ago the the keynote speaker and
>featured
>tier used the same old tired and faded film he had used when I first say him
>give that presentation in a fly shop in Ft Worth 15 years before

that is exactly the sort of experience I was ranting about. I don't expect
anything miraculous, or even truly "new". I do think, that if the attendees are
shelling out 10 or 12 bucks each to show up, the featured tiers could rework
the presentations for which they are paid. The fact that they do not is
somewhat insulting.
Tom

[Mark W. Oots]

"Ernie" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Ken Fortenberry" > wrote in message
> .com...
> > Stan Gula wrote:
> > > With all due respect for your, and others' political opinions, could
we
> > > please try to keep ROFFT from becoming another heap of political
posts?
> >
> > Yeah, everybody knows that fly fishermen, (excepting Big Dale, of
course)
> > discuss politics over in roff. ;-)
> > Ken Fortenberry
>
> I wonder if there is any chance of getting another ROFF news group for
> discussion of off topic items?
> Ernie
>
>
Call the group rec.off.topic....ROT for short...

Mark



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[Hooked]

And instead of being called ROFFians, everyone would just be ROTten...



"Mark W. Oots" <mark_ctc@(delete this)ameritech.net> wrote in message
.com...
>
> >
> >
> Call the group rec.off.topic....ROT for short...
>
> Mark
>

[Brimbum]

Tom wrote:>that is exactly the sort of experience I was ranting about. I don't
expect
>anything miraculous, or even truly "new". I do think, that if the attendees
>are
>shelling out 10 or 12 bucks each to show up, the featured tiers could rework
>the presentations for which they are paid. The fact that they do not is
>somewhat insulting.
> Tom
>
The sad part is that after being treated that way by that guy, the next year
they booked him and his son to be the keynote speakers at the next year's
conclave. How does that teach him that he has done anything wrong? The screwups
that make those kind of decisions won't listen to people that make sense.

Thanks for an excuse to make a serious rant.

Big Dale

[Peter Charles]

On 28 Nov 2003 22:53:41 GMT, (Tom Littleton) wrote:

>Dale notes:
>>I went to a conclave a couple of years ago the the keynote speaker and
>>featured
>>tier used the same old tired and faded film he had used when I first say him
>>give that presentation in a fly shop in Ft Worth 15 years before
>
>that is exactly the sort of experience I was ranting about. I don't expect
>anything miraculous, or even truly "new". I do think, that if the attendees are
>shelling out 10 or 12 bucks each to show up, the featured tiers could rework
>the presentations for which they are paid. The fact that they do not is
>somewhat insulting.
> Tom

I would imagine they'll continue booking these guys until no one wants
to see their dog-&-pony show anymore. If yours are like ours, every
year the hall has a large compliment of newbies who will be duly
impressed by 15 year old film and a hackneyed presentation. That's
the bitch of it.



Peter

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[sandy pittendrigh]

RE> "I don't want to pick on any one individual, but geez, can't we see
something novel anymore?"

===========
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/BMP/99-BMP_Pmd.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/ParaNormal_Mayfly/z-ParaNormal_Mayfly.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/FlatCaddis/done2.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Somores/Somores.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Salmon_Flies/MaidenRocker/92-done.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Reprobait/5-done.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Jelly_Fish/Jelly_Fish.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Knucklehead_Sculpin/Knucklehead_Sculpin.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Bankrobber/Bankrobber.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Twinkie/Twinkie.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Mini_Wiggler/Mini_Wiggler.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/MollyBrown_Hopper/9-molly_hopper_done.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Wherewolf/Wherewolf.html
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Roadkill_Streamer/Roadkill_Streamer.html

[Tom Littleton]

Sandy,
Great examples...now, if someone could just book you for the Fly Tyer's
circuit, and perhaps a couple more of your creativity, we might just have
something.
Happy Holidays,
Tom

[Joe McIntosh]

"Tom Littleton" > wrote in message
...
> Dale notes:
> >I went to a conclave a couple of years ago the the keynote speaker and
> >featured
> >tier used the same old tired and faded film he had used when I first say
him
> >give that presentation in a fly shop in Ft Worth 15 years before
>
> that is exactly the sort of experience I was ranting about. I don't expect
> anything miraculous, or even truly "new".
Indian Joe offers--not much different from fly fishing clinics where Joe
Humphery shows film he made 10 years ago and Jim Casonva (?) talks about
fishing streams he has not seen in 10 years.