Hooks for newbie

[Reed Waters]

I am just getting started at this and I am overwhelmed at the varieties of
hooks. Is there a basic hook assortment available somewhere? If not, what
are a half-dozen or so hooks for dry, wet, nymphs and streamers that I can
get.

[Stan Gula]

"Reed Waters" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I am just getting started at this and I am overwhelmed at the varieties of
> hooks. Is there a basic hook assortment available somewhere? If not, what
> are a half-dozen or so hooks for dry, wet, nymphs and streamers that I can
> get.

Yes, there are lots of hook styles and I can remember being really dazed by
that when I first started tying. I was amazed by my mentors who always knew
exactly which hook to use and could browse a rack of hooks and pick out the
ones they needed. (In retrospect, I realize that for the nymphs and wooly
buggers I started with, the hook was always a Mustad 3906b...)

1. There are different styles of 'bend' in the hook. Don't worry about
that. At some point in your tying you might care that the hook has a
perfect bend vs. a limerick bend, but for now that's not an issue,

2. Wire comes in different thicknesses. The usual description of this (if
other than the normal size) is to say 1x fine, 2x heavy, etc, That is, 1
grade thinner than normal, 2 grades heavier, respectively. Again, this is
not so important to the beginner, but with experience you will learn that
sometimes you need a heavier hook, and sometimes lighter.

3. The shank of the hook can vary in length too, For example you can have
1x short, 2x long, etc. This is usually shortened to 1XL, 2XS, etc.

4.The gape of the hook can also vary. Some hooks have a wide gape (distance
between barb and shank). You can look at this either as a wider gape (a
size 8 hook in length with a size 6 gape) or as a short shank (a size 8 wide
gape is equivalent to a 1x short size 6). Don't fret this yet.

5. Up eye, down eye, straight eye.

6. Wire color.

7. This is the important part: there are 4 basic (and lots of not so basic)
types. Dry fly, wet fly/nymph, streamer, scud/caddis. It should be pretty
obvious what the intended use of these is.

The key to sorting this out at the beginning is to stick to the 4 basic
types and when you understand how the standard hooks work, you can decide if
you need a longer shank, lighter/heavier wire, etc. Or you can try to
follow the pattern and use the exact hook specified (and end up with a
drawer full of hundreds of hook boxes). In practice you will want to
approximate the specified hook with something you already have (if you can).
For that a good hook conversion chart will help:
http://www.killroys.com/hooks/hookchrt.htm
http://www.ofifc.org/Eli/FF/HookChart.htm
http://globalflyfisher.com/keywords/index.php?keyword=hooks
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/flytying/tyingtips/part162.html

These are the 5 basic hooks I recommend to beginners. Translate to Mustad
or other brands as appropriate.
TMC 100 size 14 (for dry flies)
TMC 3761 size 10 and 14 (for nymphs/wets)
TMC 5263 size 8 (for big nymphs, small streamers)
TMC 2457 size 14 (for caddis nymphs and pupae)

Go up and down sizes from there as needed and get specialized hooks if
necessary.

Just my humble opinion not knowing where you're fishing or what size bugs
you get.

[Lat705]

Although I'm sure no one cares, I totaly agree with your selection, assuming
the average fishing that most on the NG do.

Lou T

[ArnSaga]

>Reed Waters"
>what are a half-dozen or so hooks for dry, wet, nymphs and streamers that I
can
>get.

Stan Gula gave a great beginner's list; high quality, covers the basic needs,
and should be available at many shops or over the 'net. You might consider the
TMC 900BL (barbless) as a dry fly hook. But TMC hooks don't, usually, break
when you squeeze down a barb.
GKT

[Stan Gula]

"ArnSaga" > wrote in message
...
> You might consider the
> TMC 900BL (barbless) as a dry fly hook. But TMC hooks don't, usually,
break
> when you squeeze down a barb.
> GKT

I've tried a couple of packs of the TMC barbless hooks. I liked them.
However. as you say, I haven't had problems with TMC hooks snapping off when
I mash the barb - nor any other brand. Even when I mash them on the stream
with my hemostats. Unfortunately, the shops I frequent don't carry a lot of
barbless hooks. If they were on the shelf I would buy them regularly even
though they cost a little more.

--Stan

[-- Rob]

Stan,

I really appreciate your succinct summary of hookology (hookism? hookishness?)

At any rate, for no rational reason, I've decided to tie a pattern that is
calling for a
Partridge Nymph/emerger GRS12ST in sizes 2 through 4 (although smaller is ok
as far as I'm concerned)
See http://globalflyfisher.com/tiebetter/hooks/nymph_em.htm

Can you (or anyone out there) suggest
(a) a substitute for this hook (I'm sort of leaning towards a TMC 200R I
believe...
based only on what I've seen in pictures)
or
(b) a source for these exact hooks?

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

-- Rob
-- so much fishing, so little time --
--please remuv the 'NOWAY2it' from my email addy to email me--

[JR]

Stan Gula wrote:
>
> I've tried a couple of packs of the TMC barbless hooks. I liked them.
> However. as you say, I haven't had problems with TMC hooks snapping off when
> I mash the barb - nor any other brand. Even when I mash them on the stream
> with my hemostats. Unfortunately, the shops I frequent don't carry a lot of
> barbless hooks. If they were on the shelf I would buy them regularly even
> though they cost a little more.

Pretty much why I buy my TMC barbless hooks from Kaufmann's, by the
100s.

JR

[Stan Gula]

"-- Rob" > wrote in message
...
> At any rate, for no rational reason, I've decided to tie a pattern that is
> calling for a
> Partridge Nymph/emerger GRS12ST in sizes 2 through 4 (although smaller is
ok
> as far as I'm concerned)
> See http://globalflyfisher.com/tiebetter/hooks/nymph_em.htm
>
> Can you (or anyone out there) suggest
> (a) a substitute for this hook (I'm sort of leaning towards a TMC 200R I
> believe...
> based only on what I've seen in pictures)
> or
> (b) a source for these exact hooks?

The TMC200R looks similar except for the finish. The Partridge hook might
hold up better in salt water (according to that web page). You should be
able to find a dealer for the Partridge hooks by searching on
www.google.com. Note that Partridge makes another hook, the K12ST that is
identical except for the gray finish.

[Stan Gula]

"JR" > wrote in message
...
> Stan Gula wrote:
> Pretty much why I buy my TMC barbless hooks from Kaufmann's, by the
> 100s.
>
> JR

The next time I'm in Kaufmann's I'll remember to buy kooks then<g>.

[Stan Gula]

> The next time I'm in Kaufmann's I'll remember to buy kooks then<g>.

I hope you know that I meant to write 'hooks'.

[JR]

Stan Gula wrote:
>
> "JR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Stan Gula wrote:
> > Pretty much why I buy my TMC barbless hooks from Kaufmann's, by the
> > 100s.
>
> The next time I'm in Kaufmann's I'll remember to buy hooks then<g>.

Kaufmann's, which is a real bricks-and-mortar local fly shop BTW, is a
truly modern outfit: they began some time ago to use this U.S. Postal
Service thingy (you have that back East?). <g>

JR

[Flyguy]

"JR" > wrote in message
...
>
> Kaufmann's, which is a real bricks-and-mortar local fly shop BTW, is a
> truly modern outfit: they began some time ago to use this U.S. Postal
> Service thingy (you have that back East?). <g>
>
> JR

US Postal service???? I don't think you should discuss fad trends in
technology here. US Postal Service will never last! We tried something like
that in Canada a few years ago, I think it went under in six months!
<wink>


Reed, congratulations on your discovery of the best hobby in the history of
hobbies.
Stan, wow great list and web pages...thanks! I have been tying for only a
year now, I wish I had thought to post that question when I started!
Without Starting a war here...CAN I get a consensus of what brands of hooks
most people use?
Flyguy
Ont.CAN

[Ken Fortenberry]

Flyguy wrote:
> ...
> Without Starting a war here...CAN I get a consensus of what brands of hooks
> most people use?

You'll get a consensus among fly fishermen just as soon as the
temperature in Hades drops below 32F. ;-)

But I use Mustad anymore.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Stan Gula]

"JR" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > The next time I'm in Kaufmann's I'll remember to buy hooks then<g>.
>
> Kaufmann's, which is a real bricks-and-mortar local fly shop BTW, is a
> truly modern outfit: they began some time ago to use this U.S. Postal
> Service thingy (you have that back East?). <g>
>
> JR

You're assuming I am organized and logical about buying my tying supplies.

[Hooked]

"Flyguy" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> Without Starting a war here...CAN I get a consensus of what brands of
hooks
> most people use?
> Flyguy
> Ont.CAN
>
>

I use Tiemco.

I bought a bunch of Mustad Salmon hooks last year trying to save money over
the TMC's.

H u u u u u g e mistake.

Presentation flies I tie on Daiichi's Alec Jackson Spey Fly hooks. (They are
too expensive for me to fish with.)

[Flyguy]

>
> I bought a bunch of Mustad Salmon hooks last year trying to save money
over
> the TMC's.
>
> H u u u u u g e mistake.
>
>What was the issue with those hooks? I was told by a shop owner that the
Black coated Mustad hooks need to be sharpened. Was that part of the issue?



Presentation flies I tie on Daiichi's Alec Jackson Spey Fly hooks. (They are
> too expensive for me to fish with.)
>
> What is it about the Daiichi's that you like for presentation, as opposed
to the Mustad or TMC's?

FlyGuy
Ont, CAN

[Hooked]

"Flyguy" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> What was the issue with those hooks? I was told by a shop owner that the
> Black coated Mustad hooks need to be sharpened. Was that part of the
issue?
>
> What is it about the Daiichi's that you like for presentation, as opposed
> to the Mustad or TMC's?
>
> FlyGuy
> Ont, CAN
>


The Mustad hooks have a cheap black painted coating that peels off after
being put in the vise. I find that very cheap. The fact that they must be
sharpened is an understatement. That paint has to be cleaned off first, then
they have to be re-honed to be of any real use. The wire doesn't seem to be
of a good quality either.

But then, $10 for 100 hooks compared to $7 for 25 TMC's...

As for the Alec Jackson hooks, which are a bit more pricey than the TMC's, I
like the bend of the hook which makes an eye pleasing tie. More so than the
regular salmon hooks made by TMC. It just looks nicer. Of course I think
they are better hooks than the TMC's. I just can't afford to tie a fly on
them only to lose them due to snags, big fish break-offs and the tree gods.

[ArnSaga]

<< Stan Gula" >><BR><BR>
<< However. as you say, I haven't had problems with TMC hooks snapping off when
I mash the barb - nor any other brand. >><BR><BR>
I have had packs of Mustad hooks which seemed to be tempered differently and in
which one point in perhaps ten would break when I mashed the barb. And more in
Partridge, one pack of K12 whatevers that every point broke no matter how I
mashed the barb. Not a statistical analysis of any value, just experience.
And I like the K12 shape so I keep using them.
GKT

[[email protected]]

I recently saw a comment that when you want to mash down the barb your
pliers should be inline with the hook and not acroos the bard. FWIW

Dave


On 06 Dec 2003 14:34:49 GMT, (ArnSaga) wrote:

><< Stan Gula" >><BR><BR>
><< However. as you say, I haven't had problems with TMC hooks snapping off when
>I mash the barb - nor any other brand. >><BR><BR>
>I have had packs of Mustad hooks which seemed to be tempered differently and in
>which one point in perhaps ten would break when I mashed the barb. And more in
>Partridge, one pack of K12 whatevers that every point broke no matter how I
>mashed the barb. Not a statistical analysis of any value, just experience.
>And I like the K12 shape so I keep using them.
>GKT

[Hooked]

> wrote in message
...
> I recently saw a comment that when you want to mash down the barb your
> pliers should be inline with the hook and not acroos the bard. FWIW
>
> Dave
>
>

Personally, I think that is an easier way to break the point. I put my
pliers across the hook, use the tips of the pliers and gently squeeze to
mash the barb down.

I guess the magic work there is "gently." If you don't be careful with
either method, you'll be buying a lot more hooks than you intended to.

[Wolfgang]

"Hooked" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > I recently saw a comment that when you want to mash down the barb your
> > pliers should be inline with the hook and not acroos the bard. FWIW
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
>
> Personally, I think that is an easier way to break the point. I put my
> pliers across the hook, use the tips of the pliers and gently squeeze to
> mash the barb down.
>
> I guess the magic work there is "gently." If you don't be careful with
> either method, you'll be buying a lot more hooks than you intended to.

It also helps to use the right tool for the job. I've had to use a hemostat
in the stream from time to time.....next to worthless. Needle nosed pliers
are the best, but not just any old needle nosed pliers, either. The
smaller, consistent with enough strength to do the job and survive, the
better. Find a pair with jaws small enough that no part touches the point
on the smallest hooks you want to mash.....if you touch the point, you stand
a good chance of breaking it off and, at the very least, you will blunt it.
Equally important is getting pliers with smooth jaws.....no grooves. It's
virtually impossible to get consistent results when you can't be certain
whether the barb is resting on a ridge or a groove. It's very easy to
damage hooks if grooves are not perfectly aligned with the axis of the wire.
And the grooves on pliers jaws are often deep enough that they are
absolutely useless on micro-barbs on very small hooks; you can close the
jaws completely without touching the barb at all on some of the smallest
hooks.

Wolfgang

[ArnSaga]

<< >><BR><BR>
<< recently saw a comment that when you want to mash down the barb your
pliers should be inline with the hook and not acroos the bard. FWIW

Dave >><BR><BR>
I mash a lot of barbs in a year. My Regal vise does the best job. Smooth
jawed needle nose pliers are second best for me. And, some packages of Mustad
seem to be more likely to break at the tip than others. Many Mustad styles
also have longer hook points beyond the barb than do equivalent styles from
other manufacturers. And some Mustad hooks have larger barbs than most
equivalent styles from other manufacturers. I can't evaluate the tempering
process by looking at a Tiemco vs. Mustad hook.
GKT

[Hooked]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> It also helps to use the right tool for the job. I've had to use a
hemostat
> in the stream from time to time.....next to worthless. Needle nosed
pliers
> are the best, but not just any old needle nosed pliers, either. The
> smaller, consistent with enough strength to do the job and survive, the
> better. Find a pair with jaws small enough that no part touches the point
> on the smallest hooks you want to mash.....if you touch the point, you
stand
> a good chance of breaking it off and, at the very least, you will blunt
it.
> Equally important is getting pliers with smooth jaws.....no grooves. It's
> virtually impossible to get consistent results when you can't be certain
> whether the barb is resting on a ridge or a groove. It's very easy to
> damage hooks if grooves are not perfectly aligned with the axis of the
wire.
> And the grooves on pliers jaws are often deep enough that they are
> absolutely useless on micro-barbs on very small hooks; you can close the
> jaws completely without touching the barb at all on some of the smallest
> hooks.
>
> Wolfgang
>
>

I don't like using my hemostats for mashing down the barbs, but if I find
myself on the water with a hook that has a barb, and I want to remove the
barb, I will use them. Fortunately, I haven't broken a hook point yet using
them. I don't like using hemostats for removing hooks either. Only if I
can't get to it with my fingers. Or if that fish has some big teeth, like a
pike.

I picked up a pair of smooth jawed pliers at "The Flyfishers" that I keep on
my tying desk. (Someday I'll have to get another pair for my vest.) I
probably should debarb all my hooks prior to tying, but some flies I like to
keep the barb on. If I find that I keep losing too many fish with the
barbless hooks, I'll switch to a fly that hasn't been debarbed. I'll try to
bend the barb down some to try to keep the fish on a little longer, but
still make it easier to remove the hook from the fishes jaw. Easier than a
hook with a full barb anyway.

[George Cleveland]

On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:15:02 -0600, "Hooked" > wrote:

>"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> It also helps to use the right tool for the job. I've had to use a
>hemostat
>> in the stream from time to time.....next to worthless. Needle nosed
>pliers
>> are the best, but not just any old needle nosed pliers, either.
>>
>> Wolfgang
>>
>>
.. . I'll try to
>bend the barb down some to try to keep the fish on a little longer, but
>still make it easier to remove the hook from the fishes jaw. Easier than a
>hook with a full barb anyway.
>
>
Since both of you fellow Badgers are posting on this thread, I was
wondering if either of you knew the legal definition of a barbless hook in
Wisconsin. I remember reading about the test out in Pennnsylvania being
whether the hooks barb would snag a nylon stocking. When I tried that with
my ostensibly debarbed flies, none passed. Yikes! Any local knowledge?

g.c.

[daytripper]

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 03:35:29 GMT, (George
Cleveland) wrote:
> Since both of you fellow Badgers are posting on this thread, I was
>wondering if either of you knew the legal definition of a barbless hook in
>Wisconsin. I remember reading about the test out in Pennnsylvania being
>whether the hooks barb would snag a nylon stocking. When I tried that with
>my ostensibly debarbed flies, none passed. Yikes! Any local knowledge?

"Badgers?!? We don't need no stinking badgers!"

;-)

[Hooked]

"George Cleveland" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >
> Since both of you fellow Badgers are posting on this thread, I was
> wondering if either of you knew the legal definition of a barbless hook in
> Wisconsin. I remember reading about the test out in Pennnsylvania being
> whether the hooks barb would snag a nylon stocking. When I tried that with
> my ostensibly debarbed flies, none passed. Yikes! Any local knowledge?
>
> g.c.

I really couldn't tell you. I asked at the flyshop once, and was told that a
mashed barb was ok. Of course, this answer didn't come from a DNR warden.
Call the DNR office in Wausau at 715-359-4522. They could tell you for sure.
Since I don't really fish for trout on barbless only waters, I just debarb
my hooks out of a courtesy to the fish. Plus the fact that I hate trying to
remove a hook that has a large barb on it from the fish. Can be a real pain
in the ass sometimes.

[Wolfgang]

"George Cleveland" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:15:02 -0600, "Hooked" > wrote:

> Since both of you fellow Badgers are posting on this thread, I was
> wondering if either of you knew the legal definition of a barbless hook in
> Wisconsin. I remember reading about the test out in Pennnsylvania being
> whether the hooks barb would snag a nylon stocking. When I tried that with
> my ostensibly debarbed flies, none passed. Yikes! Any local knowledge?

No idea. It's never come up. Come to think of it, I'm not sure that I've
fished anywhere in WI where barbless hooks are required.......have I?

Wolfgang

[Hooked]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> No idea. It's never come up. Come to think of it, I'm not sure that I've
> fished anywhere in WI where barbless hooks are required.......have I?
>
> Wolfgang
>
>

Isn't the early trout season barbless hooks only?

I know there's been talk about it.

I found this earlier. Didn't read much of it though. It mentions barbless
hooks.

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/water/fhp/fish/pubs/trout.pdf

[George Cleveland]

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 01:45:56 -0600, "Hooked" > wrote:

>"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> No idea. It's never come up. Come to think of it, I'm not sure that I've
>> fished anywhere in WI where barbless hooks are required.......have I?
>>
>> Wolfgang
>>
>>
>
>Isn't the early trout season barbless hooks only?
>
>I know there's been talk about it.
>
>I found this earlier. Didn't read much of it though. It mentions barbless
>hooks.
>
>http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/water/fhp/fish/pubs/trout.pdf
>
>
The early season is barbless only IIRC.


g.c.

Who came this close to posting "braless" instead of barbless. Probably not
a good thing to post here at 5am.

[Wolfgang]

"George Cleveland" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 01:45:56 -0600, "Hooked" > wrote:
>
> >"Wolfgang" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>
> >> No idea. It's never come up. Come to think of it, I'm not sure that
I've
> >> fished anywhere in WI where barbless hooks are required.......have I?
> >>
> >> Wolfgang
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Isn't the early trout season barbless hooks only?
> >
> >I know there's been talk about it.
> >
> >I found this earlier. Didn't read much of it though. It mentions barbless
> >hooks.
> >
> >http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/water/fhp/fish/pubs/trout.pdf
> >
> >
> The early season is barbless only IIRC.

Oh yeah, no wonder it sounded familiar. So, I guess I have fished where
barbless hooks are required..

> g.c.
>
> Who came this close to posting "braless" instead of barbless. Probably not
> a good thing to post here at 5am.

We must be using the same spellchecker.....that's what mine thought I meant,
too. :)

Wolfgang

[George Cleveland]

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:36:07 -0600, "Wolfgang" > wrote:

>
>"George Cleveland" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 01:45:56 -0600, "Hooked" > wrote:
>>

>Oh yeah, no wonder it sounded familiar. So, I guess I have fished where
>barbless hooks are required..
>
>> g.c.
>>
>> Who came this close to posting "braless" instead of barbless. Probably not
>> a good thing to post here at 5am.
>
>We must be using the same spellchecker.....that's what mine thought I meant,
>too. :)
>
>Wolfgang
>
>
My spellchecker is a 1974 Edition Merriam-Webster. It kicks ass, man!

g.c.

[-- Rob]

>The TMC200R looks similar except for the finish. The Partridge hook might
>hold up better in salt water (according to that web page). You should be
>able to find a dealer for the Partridge hooks by searching on
>www.google.com. Note that Partridge makes another hook, the K12ST that is
>identical except for the gray finish.

thanks was wondering about diffs.

also got a lead to check out a daiichi 1270.

-- Rob

-- so much fishing, so little time --
--please remuv the 'NOWAY2it' from my email addy to email me--

[Scott Seidman]

"Wolfgang" > wrote in
:

>
> "Hooked" > wrote in message
> ...
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > I recently saw a comment that when you want to mash down the barb
>> > your pliers should be inline with the hook and not acroos the bard.
>> > FWIW
>> >
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Personally, I think that is an easier way to break the point. I put
>> my pliers across the hook, use the tips of the pliers and gently
>> squeeze to mash the barb down.
>>
>> I guess the magic work there is "gently." If you don't be careful
>> with either method, you'll be buying a lot more hooks than you
>> intended to.
>
> It also helps to use the right tool for the job. I've had to use a
> hemostat in the stream from time to time.....next to worthless.
> Needle nosed pliers are the best, but not just any old needle nosed
> pliers, either. The smaller, consistent with enough strength to do
> the job and survive, the better. Find a pair with jaws small enough
> that no part touches the point on the smallest hooks you want to
> mash.....if you touch the point, you stand a good chance of breaking
> it off and, at the very least, you will blunt it. Equally important is
> getting pliers with smooth jaws.....no grooves. It's virtually
> impossible to get consistent results when you can't be certain whether
> the barb is resting on a ridge or a groove. It's very easy to damage
> hooks if grooves are not perfectly aligned with the axis of the wire.
> And the grooves on pliers jaws are often deep enough that they are
> absolutely useless on micro-barbs on very small hooks; you can close
> the jaws completely without touching the barb at all on some of the
> smallest hooks.
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
>

I have a pair of beefy smooth-jawed hemostats from Orvis that do the job
quite well. I was sold on the smooth-jawed needlenose myself, and still
use them at home, but on the stream these hemostats work nicely.

I found out about them when I was going to teach some kids at a picnic to
fish on a bluegill pond. I stopped at the Orvis to pick up some small
poppers, and I asked the guy at the store to mash the barbs, because I
didn't want to risk forgetting later.

With all the tools he had available behind the counter, he reached for
these hemostats. I tried it, and liked it.

Scott

[Scott Seidman]

(George Cleveland) wrote in
:

> Since both of you fellow Badgers are posting on this thread, I was
> wondering if either of you knew the legal definition of a barbless
> hook in Wisconsin. I remember reading about the test out in
> Pennnsylvania being whether the hooks barb would snag a nylon
> stocking. When I tried that with my ostensibly debarbed flies, none
> passed. Yikes! Any local knowledge?
>
> g.c.
>

Can't offer any advice, as my mind is now intently concentrating on the
image of a Conservation Officer removing undergarments in order to test my
hook.

Scott

[Sierra fisher]

Some game wardens, CA in particular, use the following test. They stick
the hook through the sleeve of their shirt. If it comes out without
sticking, it is barbless. My personal opinion is that this test is too
rigorous. Only a hook with its barb filed off would pass this time after
time.

I collapse the barb with the jaws of my vise before I tie them. Then if the
hook should break, I haven't wasted any time tying a fly. Some older hooks
with large barbs require needle nosed pliers.




"Scott Seidman" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
> (George Cleveland) wrote in
> :
>
> > Since both of you fellow Badgers are posting on this thread, I was
> > wondering if either of you knew the legal definition of a barbless
> > hook in Wisconsin. I remember reading about the test out in
> > Pennnsylvania being whether the hooks barb would snag a nylon
> > stocking. When I tried that with my ostensibly debarbed flies, none
> > passed. Yikes! Any local knowledge?
> >
> > g.c.
> >
>
> Can't offer any advice, as my mind is now intently concentrating on the
> image of a Conservation Officer removing undergarments in order to test my
> hook.
>
> Scott


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Norman Greenwood]

In England many fisheries are now insisting on the use of barbed hooks
on their waters.
Customers have played their fish so hard that they have done more
damage without a
barb than is done with one!
Mayby the barbless hook brigade should think again as these people
provide the fish
for customers to catch on a commercial basis and have decided that
barbless fishing
does more damage!.

--
A Yorkshire Lad

Remove spam filter to reply

[Lat705]

Did not know there was a corelation between the time a fish is played and the
existence of a barb on the hook.

Lou T

[Lat705]

Finaly thought I'd reply to this thread as it looks like the popul;ar thing to
do. I have broken hook points under only two conditions. In the first, there
is a deep barb that is cut about half way into the hook cross section. In the
second case, I've extended the jaws of the pinching device (pliers, hemostats,
vise jaws, etc) onto the BEND of the hook. On all hooks without the "deep"
barb, I've had no breakage problem as longf qas I am carefull to keep mthe jaws
on the straight portion of the hook.


Lou T

[daytripper]

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:07:50 +0000 (UTC), "Norman Greenwood"
> directed all his mental energy into gifting
the world with:

>In England many fisheries are now insisting on the use of barbed hooks
>on their waters.
>Customers have played their fish so hard that they have done more
>damage without a barb than is done with one!
>Mayby the barbless hook brigade should think again as these people
>provide the fish for customers to catch on a commercial basis and have decided that
>barbless fishing does more damage!.

Read that gibberish to yourself and then tell us how it makes any sense.

If you dare.

/daytripper ("Well? We're waiting!?!" ;-)

[Ken Fortenberry]

daytripper wrote:
> "Norman Greenwood" wrote:
>> ...
>>barbless fishing does more damage!.
>
> Read that gibberish to yourself and then tell us how it makes any sense.
> ...

Could be the guy has a point. If all you're doing is playing with the
fish, strictly catch-and-release in other words, it wouldn't surprise
me if an endless succession of barbless hooks did more damage to the
fish than an endless succession of barbed ones.

The theory being that the barbed hook stays in one place while the
barbless hook rolls around and around.

I've seen some obscene grotesqueries at the Kiddy Hole on the San Juan,
fish with mouths the sight of which makes you want to puke.

Could be the guy has a point.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[daytripper]

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 02:25:31 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
> wrote:

>daytripper wrote:
>> "Norman Greenwood" wrote:
>>> ...
>>>barbless fishing does more damage!.
>>
>> Read that gibberish to yourself and then tell us how it makes any sense.
>> ...
>
>Could be the guy has a point. If all you're doing is playing with the
>fish, strictly catch-and-release in other words, it wouldn't surprise
>me if an endless succession of barbless hooks did more damage to the
>fish than an endless succession of barbed ones.
>
>The theory being that the barbed hook stays in one place while the
>barbless hook rolls around and around.
>
>I've seen some obscene grotesqueries at the Kiddy Hole on the San Juan,
>fish with mouths the sight of which makes you want to puke.
>
>Could be the guy has a point.

Obscene grotesqueries happen, barbed or barbless, but primarily through
thoughtless handling of the catch after the fact, not during the fight.

I've seen way WAY more mishandled fish that were stuck with a barbed hook than
barbless, including the occasional brutal scene that inspired a whole lot of
me mouthing off immediately thereafter. I've given some of my best fishing
buddies a hard time over the struggle to unhook a barbed fly.

Barbs are senseless for C&R, period.

It is inconceivable to me that a barbless hook "jumps around" within the mouth
of a fish played even modestly well. I've never seen any evidence of that
phenomenon, ever. But then I can count the number of fish that I've visibly
injured (what other metric can one use?) in a few decades of flyfishing on one
single hand. I don't think it takes a miracle or a genius for that, just
simple common sense from choice of flies to the release.

Finally, I truly believe that most peeps fishing barbless will take
intrinsically better care of the catch...

/daytripper (who has witnessed barbed lip-rippers, never barbless ones...)

[Stephen Welsh]

Let me just finish what

Norman Greenwood wrote in part:
> these people
> provide the fish
> for customers to catch on a commercial basis and have decided that
> barbless fishing
> does more damage

to the turnover of customers in a given day and the catchability of
the fish.

The same reason why some fisheries don't allow C&R.

*ka-ching*

Steve

[Hooked]

"Lat705" > wrote in message
...
>
> On all hooks without the "deep"
> barb, I've had no breakage problem as long as I am carefull to keep the
jaws
> on the straight portion of the hook.
>
>
> Lou T

Exactly what I meant by being careful.

Thanks for the helpful explanation.

[Hooked]

"Scott Seidman" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
>
> With all the tools he had available behind the counter, he reached for
> these hemostats. I tried it, and liked it.
>
> Scott

Let me guess...

They weren't made in Pakistan.

[Hooked]

"daytripper" > wrote in message
...
>
> Obscene grotesqueries happen, barbed or barbless, but primarily through
> thoughtless handling of the catch after the fact, not during the fight.
>
> I've seen way WAY more mishandled fish that were stuck with a barbed hook
than
> barbless, including the occasional brutal scene that inspired a whole lot
of
> me mouthing off immediately thereafter. I've given some of my best fishing
> buddies a hard time over the struggle to unhook a barbed fly.
>
> Barbs are senseless for C&R, period.
>
> It is inconceivable to me that a barbless hook "jumps around" within the
mouth
> of a fish played even modestly well. I've never seen any evidence of that
> phenomenon, ever. But then I can count the number of fish that I've
visibly
> injured (what other metric can one use?) in a few decades of flyfishing on
one
> single hand. I don't think it takes a miracle or a genius for that, just
> simple common sense from choice of flies to the release.
>
> Finally, I truly believe that most peeps fishing barbless will take
> intrinsically better care of the catch...
>
> /daytripper (who has witnessed barbed lip-rippers, never barbless ones...)

Of course, there have been studies done that would suggest that playing a
fish to exhaustion, and then releasing said fish, could be more detrimental
to the fish than just playing bubba and hauling that fish in like using a
baitcaster and 30# line.

Let's face it. When going barbless, we all go a little easier when playing a
fish so it doesn't come unglued from the hook. If we had a barb and cared
less about it, we just muscle the fish in.

It's the thought of playing that fish too much that worries some.

[Tim J.]

"Hooked" > wrote in message
...
> "daytripper" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Obscene grotesqueries happen, barbed or barbless, but primarily through
> > thoughtless handling of the catch after the fact, not during the fight.
> >
> > I've seen way WAY more mishandled fish that were stuck with a barbed hook
> than
> > barbless, including the occasional brutal scene that inspired a whole lot
> of
> > me mouthing off immediately thereafter. I've given some of my best fishing
> > buddies a hard time over the struggle to unhook a barbed fly.
> >
> > Barbs are senseless for C&R, period.
> >
> > It is inconceivable to me that a barbless hook "jumps around" within the
> mouth
> > of a fish played even modestly well. I've never seen any evidence of that
> > phenomenon, ever. But then I can count the number of fish that I've
> visibly
> > injured (what other metric can one use?) in a few decades of flyfishing on
> one
> > single hand. I don't think it takes a miracle or a genius for that, just
> > simple common sense from choice of flies to the release.
> >
> > Finally, I truly believe that most peeps fishing barbless will take
> > intrinsically better care of the catch...
> >
> > /daytripper (who has witnessed barbed lip-rippers, never barbless ones...)
>
> Of course, there have been studies done that would suggest that playing a
> fish to exhaustion, and then releasing said fish, could be more detrimental
> to the fish than just playing bubba and hauling that fish in like using a
> baitcaster and 30# line.
>
> Let's face it. When going barbless, we all go a little easier when playing a
> fish so it doesn't come unglued from the hook. If we had a barb and cared
> less about it, we just muscle the fish in.
>
> It's the thought of playing that fish too much that worries some.

I find it just the opposite. Barbless hooks require constant pressure to stay
set, so I fight the fish a little stronger and retrieve a little faster. Some
slack on a barbed hook doesn't really matter once it's set, but a barbless will
be shaken off really quickly. Playing a fish to exhaustion is usually the result
of poor tippet size selection.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

[Lat705]

Forget the fish. Barbless hooks are easier to get out of ME.

[Nicholas Kingston]

or overall tackle thats too light (rod, line etc) of which tippet and
associated hook size is the symptom


"Tim J." > wrote in message
news:4AiBb.346129$ao4.1159891@attbi_s51...
>
> "Hooked" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "daytripper" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Obscene grotesqueries happen, barbed or barbless, but primarily
through
> > > thoughtless handling of the catch after the fact, not during the
fight.
> > >
> > > I've seen way WAY more mishandled fish that were stuck with a barbed
hook
> > than
> > > barbless, including the occasional brutal scene that inspired a whole
lot
> > of
> > > me mouthing off immediately thereafter. I've given some of my best
fishing
> > > buddies a hard time over the struggle to unhook a barbed fly.
> > >
> > > Barbs are senseless for C&R, period.
> > >
> > > It is inconceivable to me that a barbless hook "jumps around" within
the
> > mouth
> > > of a fish played even modestly well. I've never seen any evidence of
that
> > > phenomenon, ever. But then I can count the number of fish that I've
> > visibly
> > > injured (what other metric can one use?) in a few decades of
flyfishing on
> > one
> > > single hand. I don't think it takes a miracle or a genius for that,
just
> > > simple common sense from choice of flies to the release.
> > >
> > > Finally, I truly believe that most peeps fishing barbless will take
> > > intrinsically better care of the catch...
> > >
> > > /daytripper (who has witnessed barbed lip-rippers, never barbless
ones...)
> >
> > Of course, there have been studies done that would suggest that playing
a
> > fish to exhaustion, and then releasing said fish, could be more
detrimental
> > to the fish than just playing bubba and hauling that fish in like using
a
> > baitcaster and 30# line.
> >
> > Let's face it. When going barbless, we all go a little easier when
playing a
> > fish so it doesn't come unglued from the hook. If we had a barb and
cared
> > less about it, we just muscle the fish in.
> >
> > It's the thought of playing that fish too much that worries some.
>
> I find it just the opposite. Barbless hooks require constant pressure to
stay
> set, so I fight the fish a little stronger and retrieve a little faster.
Some
> slack on a barbed hook doesn't really matter once it's set, but a barbless
will
> be shaken off really quickly. Playing a fish to exhaustion is usually the
result
> of poor tippet size selection.
> --
> TL,
> Tim
> http://css.sbcma.com/timj
>
>

[Tim J.]

"Lat705" wrote...
> Forget the fish. Barbless hooks are easier to get out of ME.

Good point. I once fished all day with a guy that got a barbed hook stuck in his
forearm early in the day. He was pretty grumpy (and that was BEFORE the hook
incident.) :) Names have been omitted to protect ME.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

[daytripper]

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 23:54:45 GMT, "Tim J." >
wrote:

>
>"Lat705" wrote...
>> Forget the fish. Barbless hooks are easier to get out of ME.
>
>Good point. I once fished all day with a guy that got a barbed hook stuck in his
>forearm early in the day. He was pretty grumpy (and that was BEFORE the hook
>incident.) :) Names have been omitted to protect ME.

Before I switched to barbless flies I'd been stuck enough times you'd think
I'd have switched sooner. Especially the episode with the 2/0 stainless popper
stuck between my shoulder blades...

I had missed the reference to the put'n'take operation in the OP's post. It
certainly colors <cough> the original posit...

/daytripper

[Norman Greenwood]

Re.My apologies for the original posting under this heading on many
English Fisheries reverting
back to barbed hooks. Maybe I should have given it another heading,
but it seemed more to the point
than some of the replies to this heading.

It must be obvious to any reasonable fisherman that these are "Put and
Take" and / or
"Take Some" and return the rest fisheries.

If their commercial experience after years of barbed hook fishing
followed by years of barbless
hook fishing has concluded that barbed hook fishing, by the average
fisherman using their waters
costs them less in fish replacements.Then so be it the £ or $ rules.

If this is the case and they obviously think it is, then there seems
no point in getting ones nickers
in a twist when getting ones tights off, to check if there is a barb
prick on a hook, because if there is it could
do less damage to the fish!

Much better then to let the fishermen have there own choice, taking
into consideration all circumstances
prevailing at the time.

Keep smiling

--
A Yorkshire Lad

Remove spam filter to reply

[Chas Wade]

"Hooked" > wrote:
>Let's face it. When going barbless, we all go a little easier when
>playing a
>fish so it doesn't come unglued from the hook. If we had a barb and
>cared
>less about it, we just muscle the fish in.

This is nonsense. The "we all" you're referring to doesn't include me
or any of the people I've fished with.

If there were a difference it would be just the opposite. If it's
barbless, you need to maintain pressure to avoid having the hook slip
out. If it has a barb that's less important. There's no way that the
presence or absence of a barb makes the hook more likely to pull out
due to excessive pressure. It's just as easy to muscle the fish
without a barb.

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

[just al]

KISS. Keep it simple s... follow Gula's advice.
"Reed Waters" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I am just getting started at this and I am overwhelmed at the varieties of
> hooks. Is there a basic hook assortment available somewhere? If not, what
> are a half-dozen or so hooks for dry, wet, nymphs and streamers that I can
> get.
>
>

[Stan Gula]

just al wrote:
> KISS. Keep it simple s... follow Gula's advice.
> "Reed Waters" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>I am just getting started at this and I am overwhelmed at the varieties of
>>hooks. Is there a basic hook assortment available somewhere? If not, what
>>are a half-dozen or so hooks for dry, wet, nymphs and streamers that I can
>>get.
>>

Al, I know you're kind of new around here, and I appreciate the mention
and all, but you might want to check the date on posts before replying.
That's a pretty old one, and the original poster is probably long gone.

--Stan