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Salmo Bytes
December 19th, 2003, 04:12 PM
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Channel_Flies/Abstract.html


I posted a link to html descriptions of the 'ParaNormal_Caddis'
the other day. The ParaNormal Caddis is a tubefly dryfly built with
a novel technique (the tube itself consists of thread wraps and glue,
formed around a temporary, removable TEFLON tube).

But any dry fly (any wet fly too, for that matter) can be built this
way. So I started a new webpage hierarcy, titled "Channel Flies"
at the (above) link. I'll be adding and elaborating on those pages
as the winter tying season progresses.

In short, Channel Fly dry flies are easy to tie, they float better
(because the hook is not integral--it can be smaller, and also
because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
in it). Better yet, Channel Flies come back to you, like homeing
pigeons, when you break off.
......IE, when you snag the hook and break off, you do lose the bare
hook,
but you often get the fly back again.

Sierra fisher
December 19th, 2003, 05:00 PM
I am not sure that you are on firm ground when you say that the fly floats
better becasue the hook is below water. Part of the fly floats better, but
the total effect may be worse. The hook would float better if it too were
caught up in the surface tension; the surface tension would keep the hook
from hanging on the other part of the fly. Once the hook breaks below the
surface, the total weight of the hook is trying to pull down the other part
of the fly.


"Salmo Bytes" > wrote in message
om...
>
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/Channel_Flies/Abstract.html
>
>
> I posted a link to html descriptions of the 'ParaNormal_Caddis'
> the other day. The ParaNormal Caddis is a tubefly dryfly built with
> a novel technique (the tube itself consists of thread wraps and glue,
> formed around a temporary, removable TEFLON tube).
>
> But any dry fly (any wet fly too, for that matter) can be built this
> way. So I started a new webpage hierarcy, titled "Channel Flies"
> at the (above) link. I'll be adding and elaborating on those pages
> as the winter tying season progresses.
>
> In short, Channel Fly dry flies are easy to tie, they float better
> (because the hook is not integral--it can be smaller, and also
> because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
> in it). Better yet, Channel Flies come back to you, like homeing
> pigeons, when you break off.
> .....IE, when you snag the hook and break off, you do lose the bare
> hook,
> but you often get the fly back again.


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Sandy Pittendrigh
December 19th, 2003, 05:22 PM
You raise a legitimate hypothetical question.
But I'm not speculating. I fished these flies this
summer. It was my experience that they floated better.

It was also very cool to get them back after snagging them
on weeds and branches. You don't get to retrieve every
one. But you do get a lot of snagged flies back you'd
never see again if they were attached rigidly to the hook.

vincent p. norris
December 20th, 2003, 02:16 AM
>In short, Channel Fly dry flies.... float better....
>because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
>in it).

I don't get it. Can you explain why that enables the fly to float
better? Isn't the hook just as heavy when below the surface tension
as when in it?

vince

Wolfgang
December 20th, 2003, 04:23 AM
"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >In short, Channel Fly dry flies.... float better....
> >because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
> >in it).
>
> I don't get it. Can you explain why that enables the fly to float
> better? Isn't the hook just as heavy when below the surface tension
> as when in it?

Sniff.....sniff.....sniff.....aaahhhh, MENISCUS! :)

Wolfgang

Chas Wade
December 20th, 2003, 06:51 AM
vincent p. norris > wrote:
>>In short, Channel Fly dry flies.... float better....
>>because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
>>in it).
>
>I don't get it. Can you explain why that enables the fly to float
>better? Isn't the hook just as heavy when below the surface tension
>as when in it?
>
>vince

I have to poke in a bit of practical stuff, even though I don't have
direct experience _yet_ with this great idea. For 1, the hook is
actually lighter underwater than above because of the water displaced.
I don't think that's too significant. The real point is the one he
made, you can use a light weight small short hook on a larger fly. A
short #14 hook can be dangling from the tail of a #8 yellow sally.
That's significant in flotation, and it's kinder to the little fish you
sometimes catch on big flies.

Chas
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Sierra fisher
December 20th, 2003, 07:49 AM
there is something wrong with the Chas Wade reply, it won't download.. Re
your question; surface tension will cause items heavier than water to float.
An example for children is to put a metal pin flat on top the water. If it
doesn't break the surface tension, it will float. If you put it point
first, it sinks...The surface tension will bear part of the weight of the
item.


"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >In short, Channel Fly dry flies.... float better....
> >because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
> >in it).
>
> I don't get it. Can you explain why that enables the fly to float
> better? Isn't the hook just as heavy when below the surface tension
> as when in it?
>
> vince


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Chas Wade
December 20th, 2003, 08:53 AM
"Sierra fisher" > wrote:
>there is something wrong with the Chas Wade reply, it won't download..
>

I hope that's all that's wrong with it. Anybody else have trouble?

Chas
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Salmo Bytes
December 20th, 2003, 03:44 PM
vincent p. norris > wrote in message >...
> >In short, Channel Fly dry flies.... float better....
> >because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
> >in it).
>
> I don't get it. Can you explain why that enables the fly to float
> better? Isn't the hook just as heavy when below the surface tension
> as when in it?
>
> vince

Now that I think about it, I *was* speculating about cause and effect.
I fished ParaNormal Mayflies on DePuy spring creek this summer,
and also on the Missouri. I fished the caddis flies here there and everywhere.

It was my impression they were champion floaters.
Why? I can only guess.

One point is clear: when you break off, you get the fly back....most
of the time, anyway. I love it: break off, take two or three
strategic steps, wait 2-3 seconds, reach down and viola, you
got your fly back. That's like magic.

Sierra fisher
December 20th, 2003, 06:37 PM
I am not arguing with you observation tht it floats better, only your
explanation of it. It could be as Chas speculates, the smaller hook.
However if you use a small hook on a large fly, you loose the 'Keel effect";
you need some weight to right the fly if it lands sideways or upside down.
That is a big problem in tying stimulators on 200R's; often the wing is
heavier than the hook so it floats sideways.


"Salmo Bytes" > wrote in message
om...
> vincent p. norris > wrote in message
>...
> > >In short, Channel Fly dry flies.... float better....
> > >because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
> > >in it).
> >
> > I don't get it. Can you explain why that enables the fly to float
> > better? Isn't the hook just as heavy when below the surface tension
> > as when in it?
> >
> > vince
>
> Now that I think about it, I *was* speculating about cause and effect.
> I fished ParaNormal Mayflies on DePuy spring creek this summer,
> and also on the Missouri. I fished the caddis flies here there and
everywhere.
>
> It was my impression they were champion floaters.
> Why? I can only guess.
>
> One point is clear: when you break off, you get the fly back....most
> of the time, anyway. I love it: break off, take two or three
> strategic steps, wait 2-3 seconds, reach down and viola, you
> got your fly back. That's like magic.


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Stephen Welsh
December 20th, 2003, 10:59 PM
Chas Wade > wrote in news:MdTEb.601612
$Tr4.1575539@attbi_s03:

> "Sierra fisher" > wrote:
>>there is something wrong with the Chas Wade reply, it won't download..
>>
>
> I hope that's all that's wrong with it. Anybody else have trouble?
>

Nope.

I think the point you and Sandy make about the small hook is correct.

Even if the gape of a larger hook is still required it can be a 2X short
saving shank mass.


Steve (Yes ...and I too am getting a whiff of meniscous .... ;)

Big Dale
December 20th, 2003, 11:19 PM
vince wrote:>>In short, Channel Fly dry flies.... float better....
>>because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
>>in it).
>
>I don't get it. Can you explain why that enables the fly to float
>better? Isn't the hook just as heavy when below the surface tension
>as when in it?
>
I don't know how to explain it either, but I learned several years ago to
listen to what Sandy says. His teflon tube tip for using zap-a-gap has saved me
a bunch of problems thru the years.

Big Dale

jack schmitt KQ4C
December 21st, 2003, 01:42 AM
Big Dale wrote:
>
> vince wrote:>>In short, Channel Fly dry flies.... float better....
> >>because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
> >>in it).
> >
> >I don't get it. Can you explain why that enables the fly to float
> >better? Isn't the hook just as heavy when below the surface tension
> >as when in it?
> >
> I don't know how to explain it either, but I learned several years ago to
> listen to what Sandy says. His teflon tube tip for using zap-a-gap has saved me
> a bunch of problems thru the years.
>
> Big Dale

I have a question: Where do you find the teflon tubes??

Big Dale
December 21st, 2003, 09:38 AM
Jack wrote:>I have a question: Where do you find the teflon tubes??
>

I found some teflon tubing at an electronics supply store where they sell a
bunch of stuff for working on computers.

Happy Holidays.

Big Dale

jack schmitt KQ4C
December 21st, 2003, 04:47 PM
Big Dale wrote:
>
> Jack wrote:>I have a question: Where do you find the teflon tubes??
> >
>
> I found some teflon tubing at an electronics supply store where they sell a
> bunch of stuff for working on computers.
>
> Happy Holidays.
>
> Big Dale

Thanks BD. Do you still have that Vanderbilt jersey???

Happy Holiday and TL.

Jack.

Big Dale
December 21st, 2003, 05:59 PM
Jack wrote:>Thanks BD. Do you still have that Vanderbilt jersey???
>

That was a gift for my friend Raymond and he was wearing it when I stopped by
his house the other day.

Big Dale

vincent p. norris
December 22nd, 2003, 02:15 AM
>vincent p. norris > wrote:
>>>In short, Channel Fly dry flies.... float better....
>>>because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
>>>in it).
>>
>>I don't get it. Can you explain why that enables the fly to float
>>better? Isn't the hook just as heavy when below the surface tension
>>as when in it?
>>
> For 1, the hook is actually lighter underwater than above because of the water displaced.

Yes, I understand that.

> The real point is the one he made, you can use a light weight small short hook on a larger fly. A
>short #14 hook can be dangling from the tail of a #8 yellow sally. That's significant in flotation,
>and it's kinder to the little fish you sometimes catch on big flies.

Yes, I understand that, too.

What I don't understand, and asked about, is this:

>>>In short, Channel Fly dry flies.... float better....
>>>because the hook dangles below the surface tension, rather than
>>>in it).

That's the part I don't understand.

vince

vincent p. norris
December 22nd, 2003, 02:19 AM
>there is something wrong with the Chas Wade reply, it won't download.

It downloaded OK for me.

> Re your question; surface tension will cause items heavier than water to float.

I know. But that's not what he said. He said the fly will float
better if the fly is *below* the surface tension than, where that
benefit doesn't exist.

vince

Chas Wade
December 23rd, 2003, 02:58 AM
vincent p. norris > wrote:
>>there is something wrong with the Chas Wade reply, it won't download.
>
>It downloaded OK for me.
>
>> Re your question; surface tension will cause items heavier than
>>water to float.
>
>I know. But that's not what he said. He said the fly will float
>better if the fly is *below* the surface tension than, where that
>benefit doesn't exist.
>
This is one of those times when you need to read between the lines,
recognize that the original comment wasn't meticulously edited for
publication, and read what he meant instead of pushing a silly
semantics argument.

While you're at it, don't misquote him. He said the hook was below the
surface tension, not the fly was below the surface tension. If you
just remove the word tension you have what he meant, and aafcps there
is no confusion left.

Chas
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Salmo Bytes
December 23rd, 2003, 10:14 PM
> Someone said:

> I know. But that's not what he said. He said the fly will float
> better if the fly is *below* the surface tension than, where that
> benefit doesn't exist.

The argument I was trying to make (which may or may not hold water)
was that it's better for the hook to be completely above
or completely below the surface...but not half in half out.

Most dry flies float because of the interaction between hackle
fibers and surface tension. But the hook itself usually punctures the
surface tension, which is exactly where and how a dry fly
suddenly becomes a wet fly. In other words I think you get a better
float when you have an extra small hook that is completely below the surface,
campared to a larger hook that breaks through the surface tension.

I do know that Channel Flies are very good floaters. Mabye it's
because of the (above) analysis, maybe not. Why *is* interesting
....but it's not the important part of the message.