Floating materials

[Peter Charles]

Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
quill bodies -- but anything else?

dubbing
ribbing
wing materials (other than the above)

etc.

I'm looking at tying up a class of emerger and the above (except the
quills) aren't an option as the flies will be #16 and smaller. When
you reduce the foam size to fit this size of fly, it doesn't float (I
know, I've tried). Quill bodies work to a point. I won't be using
any hackles so that isn't an option.

Ideas?

[Ernie]

CDC
Ernie

"Peter Charles" > wrote in message
om...
> Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float
without the
> aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair,
wound
> quill bodies -- but anything else?
>
> dubbing
> ribbing
> wing materials (other than the above)
>
> etc.
>
> I'm looking at tying up a class of emerger and the above
(except the
> quills) aren't an option as the flies will be #16 and smaller.
When
> you reduce the foam size to fit this size of fly, it doesn't
float (I
> know, I've tried). Quill bodies work to a point. I won't be
using
> any hackles so that isn't an option.
>
> Ideas?

[Larry L]

"Peter Charles" > wrote
>
> I'm looking at tying up a class of emerger and the above (except the
> quills) aren't an option as the flies will be #16 and smaller. When
> you reduce the foam size to fit this size of fly, it doesn't float

try cutting down the dense popper foam sold for making bluegill type flies,

IME, expecting the materials to do both halves of the "emerger" job ...i.e.
half the fly float, half sink ... is expecting too much in small sizes

you CAN design flies that will do this until the first fish, but after some
slime, you will be dependant on using floatant ( often floatant on the
leader near the fly is the best 'answer') The best "prototypes" for
emergers in small sizes I know of are ... Lasher's Raccoon, Lasher's Foam
Midge Emerger, and Rene Harrop's transitional dun series.

The Raccoon uses deer hair and works great, the Foam emerger uses the denser
foam I mention above and works "ok' in small sizes, but you will need
floatant on both flies .... the Harrop pattern(s) for transitional periods
all use CDC and you will need to apply Frog's Fanny after catching fish and
do so carefully to keep from floating the part that is supposed to sink.

If I had to use only one approach, it would be the CDC, because I think the
natural movement it yields is as important as "float" in most cases

[Mike Connor]

"Peter Charles" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
> Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
> aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
> quill bodies -- but anything else?
>
> dubbing
> ribbing
> wing materials (other than the above)
>
> etc.
>
> I'm looking at tying up a class of emerger and the above (except the
> quills) aren't an option as the flies will be #16 and smaller. When
> you reduce the foam size to fit this size of fly, it doesn't float (I
> know, I've tried). Quill bodies work to a point. I won't be using
> any hackles so that isn't an option.
>
> Ideas?

In that size range, CDC is one other material which comes readily to mind.
Of course, once it gets thoroughly wet, it will also sink.

I can not see that quill bodies will float without floatant. Some with a
fair pith content might, but on all my quill bodied flies, I have to use
floatant. It can also be quite difficult finding the right quills for small
flies.

Natural duck feathers, with a high oil content will float for quite a while,
but this eventually washes off as well.

Cork works, and so does kapok. Neither needs floatant. The kapok is I
believe now commercially available as dubbing. It floats forever, even when
soaked. In very small sizes, the positive buoyancy may however still not be
enough to keep a fly afloat, especially an emerger, which is partially
submerged. Much the same applies to cork.

My own approach to this, ( although I have never used very small flies
anyway, eighteen is the smallest I go, and that only very rarely. I have
tied quite a few, but never found them very effective where I normally
fished), is to grease the tippet up, so that the fly stays in the surface
film.

I would try the kapok, maybe as thoraces etc, and with a polyprop body
dubbing etc. This might work, although I see problems getting the fly to
hang "in" the film, as opposed to floatin "on " it. You would have to
experiment with it.

One thing which I once thought of, but never actually tried, was using small
hollow beads. ( Same principle as the beads in plastic fly lines, which give
the positive buoyancy, but larger of course) Some hollow plastic beads would
be good in the right size. You could also use pieces of flyline. This
works when used on larger flies. I just use white, and colour it up with a
marker. You can wind it, or use it longitudinally. Although this again
might be a problem on very small flies.

TL
MC

[Stephen Welsh]

(Peter Charles) wrote in
om:

> Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
> aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
> quill bodies -- but anything else?
>
> dubbing
> ribbing
> wing materials (other than the above)
>
> etc.
>
> I'm looking at tying up a class of emerger and the above (except the
> quills) aren't an option as the flies will be #16 and smaller. When
> you reduce the foam size to fit this size of fly, it doesn't float (I
> know, I've tried). Quill bodies work to a point. I won't be using
> any hackles so that isn't an option.
>
> Ideas?

Polystyrene ball/s in a some sort of sheath?
and there is one polysomething (propylene? poly yarn?) winging material
supposedly with a postive bouyancy - don't use it myself.
Others mentioned CDC - this would probably the way I'd head using a hump
of it over the thorax to trap some air between it and the thorax.


Steve

[Willi]

Peter Charles wrote:

> Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
> aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
> quill bodies -- but anything else?
>
> dubbing
> ribbing
> wing materials (other than the above)
>
> etc.
>
> I'm looking at tying up a class of emerger and the above (except the
> quills) aren't an option as the flies will be #16 and smaller. When
> you reduce the foam size to fit this size of fly, it doesn't float (I
> know, I've tried). Quill bodies work to a point. I won't be using
> any hackles so that isn't an option.
>
> Ideas?

Like Ernie and Mike said, CDC. I tie alot of CDC flies in smaller sizes.
Frog's Fanny keeps them floating. Snowshoe hare's hair is another good
material that takes more abuse than CDC.

I've experimented with alot of different stuff trying to get a small fly
to ride in the surface/hang from it instead of on it or below it,
without any consistent success. Like you said foam and other things that
work with larger flies don't cut it with the smaller stuff.

The best I've come up with for a small fly that hangs in the film is to
tie a wing of snowshoe or cdc that leans forward over the eye at about
135 degree angle from the hook shank. I use either a quill or thread
body with a small dubbed thorax just behind the wing. They float "right"
some of the time but will catch fish no matter. I tie them on Tiemco
2488's and on standard dry hooks. The fly does well on the BWO's I fish
alot here in CO, even on flat water. These are size 20 and 18. I also
have some decent success with them in smaller sizes when fish are taking
midge emergers. Like Mike, I also usually grease my leader.


Let us know if you come up with anything.

Willi

[Stan Gula]

"Peter Charles" > wrote in message
om...
> Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
> aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
> quill bodies -- but anything else?

Snowshoe hare feet.

[Tom Littleton]

Peter asks:
>
>Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
>aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
>quill bodies -- but anything else?

snowshoe rabbit foot hairs.

>I'm looking at tying up a class of emerger and the above (except the
>quills) aren't an option as the flies will be #16 and smaller. When
>you reduce the foam size to fit this size of fly, it doesn't float (I
>know, I've tried). Quill bodies work to a point. I won't be using
>any hackles so that isn't an option.

chop the foot hairs off foot, mix them in a blender/coffee grinder, then lash
onto wing area of the little flies like you would a spinner wing, but post the
clumps upright with a couple wraps of thread around the hair. The resulting
clump of hair is locked in well, and can be clipped down to a very small size
as a wing bud or whatever. The resulting emerger will float pretty well, for a
long time.
Tom

[Mike Connor]

"Peter Charles" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
> Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
> aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
> quill bodies -- but anything else?
>
> dubbing
> ribbing
> wing materials (other than the above)
>
> etc.
>
> I'm looking at tying up a class of emerger and the above (except the
> quills) aren't an option as the flies will be #16 and smaller. When
> you reduce the foam size to fit this size of fly, it doesn't float (I
> know, I've tried). Quill bodies work to a point. I won't be using
> any hackles so that isn't an option.
>
> Ideas?

In that size range, CDC is one other material which comes readily to mind.
Of course, once it gets thoroughly wet, it will also sink.

I can not see that quill bodies will float without floatant. Some with a
fair pith content might, but on all my quill bodied flies, I have to use
floatant. It can also be quite difficult finding the right quills for small
flies.

Natural duck feathers, with a high oil content will float for quite a while,
but this eventually washes off as well.

Cork works, and so does kapok. Neither needs floatant. The kapok is I
believe now commercially available as dubbing. It floats forever, even when
soaked. In very small sizes, the positive buoyancy may however still not be
enough to keep a fly afloat, especially an emerger, which is partially
submerged. Much the same applies to cork.

My own approach to this, ( although I have never used very small flies
anyway, eighteen is the smallest I go, and that only very rarely. I have
tied quite a few, but never found them very effective where I normally
fished), is to grease the tippet up, so that the fly stays in the surface
film.

I would try the kapok, maybe as thoraces etc, and with a polyprop body
dubbing etc. This might work, although I see problems getting the fly to
hang "in" the film, as opposed to floatin "on " it. You would have to
experiment with it.

One thing which I once thought of, but never actually tried, was using small
hollow beads. ( Same principle as the beads in plastic fly lines, which give
the positive buoyancy, but larger of course) Some hollow plastic beads would
be good in the right size. You could also use pieces of flyline. This
works when used on larger flies. I just use white, and colour it up with a
marker. You can wind it, or use it longitudinally. Although this again
might be a problem on very small flies.

TL
MC

[Larry]

Snowshoe Rabbit Foot Hair
CDC
Polystyrene (in nylon netting)
Kapok
Certain Poly yarns
Elk and Caribou
Porcupine Quills

Peter Charles wrote:
> Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
> aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
> quill bodies -- but anything else?

[Peter Charles]

"Stan Gula" > wrote in message >...
> "Peter Charles" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
> > aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
> > quill bodies -- but anything else?
>
> Snowshoe hare feet.

I forgot to put CDC on the list but I didn't think about snowshoe
hare. I have some kicking around and I'll give it a try.

The idea is to produce a fly that is just barely buoyant and support
it with a greased leader if necessary.

[Dave LaCourse]

Peter writes:

>The idea is to produce a fly that is just barely buoyant and support
>it with a greased leader if necessary.

Have you thought of a para nymph. There are some examples in Dan Bailey
catalog. Basicly a nymph (emerger) with a parachute connected to it with a
cord (tippet?) about 3 - 6 inches long. I tried it in September on the Rapid
and it worked well A bitch to cast, however.
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Dave LaCourse]

Forgot to add:

You can use either spun deer hair, foam, or a hackle tied parachute style to
keep it afloat. I only had two that I tied before going and didn't have my kit
with me. I lost both of them to fish.
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Ernie]

Polarbear hair
Ernie

"Larry" > wrote in message
om...
> Snowshoe Rabbit Foot Hair
> CDC
> Polystyrene (in nylon netting)
> Kapok
> Certain Poly yarns
> Elk and Caribou
> Porcupine Quills
>
> Peter Charles wrote:
> > Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float
without the
> > aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair,
wound
> > quill bodies -- but anything else?
>

[Jim (Bear) Peterson]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:21:45 GMT, Larry > wrote:

>Snowshoe Rabbit Foot Hair
>CDC
>Polystyrene (in nylon netting)
>Kapok
>Certain Poly yarns
>Elk and Caribou
>Porcupine Quills
>
>Peter Charles wrote:
>> Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
>> aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
>> quill bodies -- but anything else?

I make small poppers using balsa bodies about the dia. of a kitchen
match stick I've made them as small as a size 18,, not hard to make
either, just get a balsa dowel of the right dia. at any model buider's
supply shop and shape with sandpaper to the shape you want with a
small groove on the bottom just shallower than the hook shank, epoxy
in place and overwrap with thread to lock. Same technique should float
your emerger.


Bear
send any e-mail to
but first me remove OLD from this yahoo addy,

please check out my better half's on-line projects
www.amazon.com/shops/inland_canal_general_store
www.cafeshops.com/everythinggoes
www.keen.com/Dawn+777

[Mike Connor]

"Peter Charles" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
m...
<SNIP>
Sorry about the multiple postings. I am having trouble with news servers.

I still don´t know whethet you got my second post. Can´t see it anywhere, so
here it is again.

Knew I had seen it somewhere;
http://www.mustad.no/flytying/fly_of_the_month/kap_em_0302.html

http://www.rainbowfly.co.kr/shops/description.php3?II=214

http://goldenruleflyshop.com/dubbing2.html

The stuff I used came from a lifejacket, and it floats better than cork.
Much easier to work with as well.

TL
MC

[Scott Seidman]

(Peter Charles) wrote in
om:

> Ideas?
>
>

Ice??

[Scott Seidman]

"Stan Gula" > wrote in
:

> "Peter Charles" > wrote in message
> om...
>> Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
>> aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
>> quill bodies -- but anything else?
>
> Snowshoe hare feet.
>
>

Fine point. Stuff is tough, don't have to baby in on-stream, and I've
never seen a drowned snowshoe hare.

Scott

[Charlie Choc]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:54:34 +0100, "Mike Connor"
> wrote:

>The stuff I used came from a lifejacket, and it floats better than cork.
>Much easier to work with as well.
>
Kapok?
--
Charlie...

[Mike Connor]

"Charlie Choc" > schrieb im
Newsbeitrag ...
> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:54:34 +0100, "Mike Connor"
> > wrote:
>
> >The stuff I used came from a lifejacket, and it floats better than cork.
> >Much easier to work with as well.
> >
> Kapok?
> --
> Charlie...

Indeed ! :)

TL
MC

[Peter Charles]

(Tom Littleton) wrote in message >...
> Peter asks:
> >
> >Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
> >aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
> >quill bodies -- but anything else?
>
> snowshoe rabbit foot hairs.
>
> >I'm looking at tying up a class of emerger and the above (except the
> >quills) aren't an option as the flies will be #16 and smaller. When
> >you reduce the foam size to fit this size of fly, it doesn't float (I
> >know, I've tried). Quill bodies work to a point. I won't be using
> >any hackles so that isn't an option.
>
> chop the foot hairs off foot, mix them in a blender/coffee grinder, then lash
> onto wing area of the little flies like you would a spinner wing, but post the
> clumps upright with a couple wraps of thread around the hair. The resulting
> clump of hair is locked in well, and can be clipped down to a very small size
> as a wing bud or whatever. The resulting emerger will float pretty well, for a
> long time.
> Tom

Tom

I take it this is just a brief introduction to the coffee grinder so
as to leave hairs that are long enough to serve as wings -- correct?
I was tying on polypro then folding forward, tieing off, then folding
underneath for legs. I can do the same with the snowshoe hair, as
long as I get the length right. I have some with an amber & white
colouration that'll work fine. I'm using a Fine & Dry dubbing that's
not supposed to change colour when wet but it's applied so thinly that
the wet thread underneath shows through. I'll have to go to white
thread to prevent the colour change.

It's a caddis emerger pattern, BTW.

[Peter Charles]

Scott Seidman > wrote in message >...
> (Peter Charles) wrote in
> om:
>
> > Ideas?
> >
> >
>
> Ice??

never in my scotch

[Peter Charles]

Larry > wrote in message >...
> Snowshoe Rabbit Foot Hair
> CDC
> Polystyrene (in nylon netting)
> Kapok
> Certain Poly yarns
> Elk and Caribou
> Porcupine Quills
>
> Peter Charles wrote:
> > Looking to try and compile a list of materials that float without the
> > aid of floatant. Obviously, float foam, bucktail, deer hair, wound
> > quill bodies -- but anything else?

The trick will be to find stuff like these hairs or quills in the
right colours that are supple enough to wind on a size #20.

Anybody tried anything synthetic coloured ribbing that floats?

[Peter Charles]

(Dave LaCourse) wrote in message >...
> Forgot to add:
>
> You can use either spun deer hair, foam, or a hackle tied parachute style to
> keep it afloat. I only had two that I tied before going and didn't have my kit
> with me. I lost both of them to fish.
> Dave
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html


I'm after a certain appearance with this emerger that precludes the
use of hackle or hair, unless I can wind the hair as a body (like a
quill body) and still have it retain its buoyancy.

Some caddis start their emergence lower in the water column so my
current pattern will probably be OK for that application, but I'm
after one that'll ride just contacting the meniscus. I don't care
about visibility as I'll be fishing it on a short line and I'll see
the take.

Alternately, if I can't get this to work, I'll tie in a CDC loop to
mimic the insect leaving the shuck and tie it as a "stuck shuck
schmuck".

[Dave LaCourse]

Peter writes:

>"stuck shuck
>schmuck".

And there's your name for it!

We still on in May? You going to Penns?
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Flyline]

Try wrapping the body with a turkey biot with a small foam ball at the
thorax!


--
flyline

"Work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do, and Play consists of
whatever a body is not obliged to do." - Mark Twain


"Peter Charles" > wrote in message
om...
> (Dave LaCourse) wrote in message
>...
> > Forgot to add:
> >
> > You can use either spun deer hair, foam, or a hackle tied parachute
style to
> > keep it afloat. I only had two that I tied before going and didn't have
my kit
> > with me. I lost both of them to fish.
> > Dave
> >
> > http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
>
>
> I'm after a certain appearance with this emerger that precludes the
> use of hackle or hair, unless I can wind the hair as a body (like a
> quill body) and still have it retain its buoyancy.
>
> Some caddis start their emergence lower in the water column so my
> current pattern will probably be OK for that application, but I'm
> after one that'll ride just contacting the meniscus. I don't care
> about visibility as I'll be fishing it on a short line and I'll see
> the take.
>
> Alternately, if I can't get this to work, I'll tie in a CDC loop to
> mimic the insect leaving the shuck and tie it as a "stuck shuck
> schmuck".

[Tom Littleton]

Peter asks:
> take it this is just a brief introduction to the coffee grinder so
>as to leave hairs that are long enough to serve as wings -- correct?

yes, but you can get away with a couple good pulses on the thing to prepare a
hair mix that works on small flies. What you are essentially doing is mixing up
the hair so that when you pick out a clump to work with, some tips and some
butts point in each direction(is that clear, written, it sounds murky?).

>It's a caddis emerger pattern, BTW.
>
for a small caddis emerger, you can just tie in a small clump of hair, sparse
in nature, and take the part in front of the tie in point a pull back and tie
down. You now have a stubby little wing, with a bit of density for the size
involved, and it will not sink unless you are in real turbulent conditions or
put weight on the leader. The latter option will cause wing to collect air
bubbles, which can make for very effective imitative properties!
Tom

[Peter Charles]

(Dave LaCourse) wrote in message >...
> Peter writes:
>
> >"stuck shuck
> >schmuck".
>
> And there's your name for it!
>
> We still on in May? You going to Penns?
> Dave
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

May is out as there's too many things in that month already (read --
our steelhead trip, Penns + Jo wants two patios, a garden, and a
flower box made). But I may be good for Maine in September.

[Dave LaCourse]

Peter:

>our steelhead trip, Penns + Jo wants two patios, a garden, and a
>flower box made). But I may be good for Maine in September.

I don't remember the float trip dates. Hope Suzie can make it in September.
Jo will be there.
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Hooked]

"Scott Seidman" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
>
> and I've
> never seen a drowned snowshoe hare.
>


And how many drowned rabbits have you seen, that you can compare to drowned
snowshoes?

[Hooked]

"Scott Seidman" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
>
> Ice??
>

Ice flies?

Like those used for bluegills and perch in winter?

[Peter Charles]

(Dave LaCourse) wrote in message >...
> Peter:
>
> >our steelhead trip, Penns + Jo wants two patios, a garden, and a
> >flower box made). But I may be good for Maine in September.
>
> I don't remember the float trip dates. Hope Suzie can make it in September.
> Jo will be there.
> Dave
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

I'm in Montreal for the week. When I get back, I'll check dates with
John -- early May is best for the Southampton area.

Peter