Watusi Worms

[Salmo Bytes]

No photos yet.
Photos will happen this comming weekend, or soon
thereafter.

And this is a *troll* question, of sorts.
But I am curious about the answers.

What I'm about to describe will generate
(at least a few) "this isn't fly fishing"
comments which, in fact, may well be true.
But if the following isn't fly fishing,
what is it? That's the question.

=====Watusi Worms=======
CA glue (aka super glue) doesn't adhere
well to most plastics. The key word here
is most. CA glue does adhere very well to
the soft flexible plastic rubber worms
and Mr Twister tails are made from. CA
glue also adheres well to any hard plastic
that has been scored (scratched) with sandy paper.
So here's the deal:

Buy a bag of Mr Twister Tails or Berkeley Power Baits.
Use a razor blade to slice the front end off
the twister body, at a flat downward slant,
approximately 30-40 degrees off horizontal.

Cut a square of clear mylar sheeting. Scuff it
up with sandpaper. Glue the Twister tail to
the flat mylar with ZapAGap.

Flatten a non-lead split shot with pliers.
Glue it to the flat mylar, just below
the worm body. Use a dremel tool and a 1/32"
drill bit to bore a hole in the middle of
the flattened split shot.

Use scissors to trim the mylar to the shape
of a crankbait diving bill.

Thread leader through the whole in the bill.
Snell the leader to a straight eye grasshopper hook.
Put a small barrel swivel at the other end of
the tippet. Tie the barrel to your leader.

Now you have a soft plasctic Mr Twister tail
that is no heavier than a lead wrapped #4
Woolly Bugger. So you can cast it with a fly rod.
When you retrieve it, it dives and wiggles
frantically. This fly or lure--whatever it is--
is way too light to cast with a spinning rod.
In fact, in the spin fishing context, it's almost
worthless, because it is too light.

So what is it?
Should it be banned at "fly fishing only" sites.
If so, what's the definition of fly fishing,
so the authorities can enforce the rules?

[Stephen Welsh]

(Salmo Bytes) wrote in
om:

> So what is it?

A lot of trouble to build.
;-)

> Should it be banned at "fly fishing only" sites.

Do you mean 'waters' or 'sites' as in www?

> If so, what's the definition of fly fishing,
> so the authorities can enforce the rules?
>

My definition: an articifial lure cast and delivered by
the weight of the line ... OOWV.
By my definition, short-line nymphing, bow and arrow
casting is not fly-fishing, and casting a Rapala on a 12wt is.
Using the same nymphs presented with an overhead cast
is fly-fishing. Is using a spin-fly line and an unweighted
nymph flyfishing? By my definition yes.
Holes can be found in any definition if you poke around enough.

If you're referring to some web-site chatboard nobbling
discussion of your lure - well the owner of the site
pretty much has 'authority' to do what he or she pleases.

Context?

Steve

[Gene Cottrell]

It's not a fly. We all know what a fly is and is not. It's kind of like
pornography - I can't give you a specific definition, but I know it when I
see it.

Gene

"Salmo Bytes" > wrote in message
om...
> No photos yet.
> Photos will happen this comming weekend, or soon
> thereafter.
>
> And this is a *troll* question, of sorts.
> But I am curious about the answers.
>
> What I'm about to describe will generate
> (at least a few) "this isn't fly fishing"
> comments which, in fact, may well be true.
> But if the following isn't fly fishing,
> what is it? That's the question.
>
> =====Watusi Worms=======
> CA glue (aka super glue) doesn't adhere
> well to most plastics. The key word here
> is most. CA glue does adhere very well to
> the soft flexible plastic rubber worms
> and Mr Twister tails are made from. CA
> glue also adheres well to any hard plastic
> that has been scored (scratched) with sandy paper.
> So here's the deal:
>
> Buy a bag of Mr Twister Tails or Berkeley Power Baits.
> Use a razor blade to slice the front end off
> the twister body, at a flat downward slant,
> approximately 30-40 degrees off horizontal.
>
> Cut a square of clear mylar sheeting. Scuff it
> up with sandpaper. Glue the Twister tail to
> the flat mylar with ZapAGap.
>
> Flatten a non-lead split shot with pliers.
> Glue it to the flat mylar, just below
> the worm body. Use a dremel tool and a 1/32"
> drill bit to bore a hole in the middle of
> the flattened split shot.
>
> Use scissors to trim the mylar to the shape
> of a crankbait diving bill.
>
> Thread leader through the whole in the bill.
> Snell the leader to a straight eye grasshopper hook.
> Put a small barrel swivel at the other end of
> the tippet. Tie the barrel to your leader.
>
> Now you have a soft plasctic Mr Twister tail
> that is no heavier than a lead wrapped #4
> Woolly Bugger. So you can cast it with a fly rod.
> When you retrieve it, it dives and wiggles
> frantically. This fly or lure--whatever it is--
> is way too light to cast with a spinning rod.
> In fact, in the spin fishing context, it's almost
> worthless, because it is too light.
>
> So what is it?
> Should it be banned at "fly fishing only" sites.
> If so, what's the definition of fly fishing,
> so the authorities can enforce the rules?

[Salmo Bytes]

Stephen Welsh > wrote:

> My definition: an articifial lure cast and delivered by
> the weight of the line

Good definition. I like it.

> Do you mean 'waters' or 'sites' as in www?

waters...not sites.
If they're going to have "fly fishing only" waters,
then they probably need a definition of fly fishing.
So I was fishing for a definition.

[Salmo Bytes]

http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/01-Wigglers/Watusi_Worms/Watusi_Worms.html

[Hooked]

"Salmo Bytes" > wrote in message
om...
>
http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/01-Wigglers/Watusi_Worms/Watusi_Worms.html


That's not a fly. That's a lure. And you could cast that with a spinning rod
if you had the right rod. It would need to have a light tip section. Would
also help if you use light line.

[John Lindsey]

Thanks for sharing!
Good luck!
John
"Salmo Bytes" > wrote in message
om...
> No photos yet.
> Photos will happen this comming weekend, or soon
> thereafter.
>
> And this is a *troll* question, of sorts.
> But I am curious about the answers.
>
> What I'm about to describe will generate
> (at least a few) "this isn't fly fishing"
> comments which, in fact, may well be true.
> But if the following isn't fly fishing,
> what is it? That's the question.
>
> =====Watusi Worms=======
> CA glue (aka super glue) doesn't adhere
> well to most plastics. The key word here
> is most. CA glue does adhere very well to
> the soft flexible plastic rubber worms
> and Mr Twister tails are made from. CA
> glue also adheres well to any hard plastic
> that has been scored (scratched) with sandy paper.
> So here's the deal:
>
> Buy a bag of Mr Twister Tails or Berkeley Power Baits.
> Use a razor blade to slice the front end off
> the twister body, at a flat downward slant,
> approximately 30-40 degrees off horizontal.
>
> Cut a square of clear mylar sheeting. Scuff it
> up with sandpaper. Glue the Twister tail to
> the flat mylar with ZapAGap.
>
> Flatten a non-lead split shot with pliers.
> Glue it to the flat mylar, just below
> the worm body. Use a dremel tool and a 1/32"
> drill bit to bore a hole in the middle of
> the flattened split shot.
>
> Use scissors to trim the mylar to the shape
> of a crankbait diving bill.
>
> Thread leader through the whole in the bill.
> Snell the leader to a straight eye grasshopper hook.
> Put a small barrel swivel at the other end of
> the tippet. Tie the barrel to your leader.
>
> Now you have a soft plasctic Mr Twister tail
> that is no heavier than a lead wrapped #4
> Woolly Bugger. So you can cast it with a fly rod.
> When you retrieve it, it dives and wiggles
> frantically. This fly or lure--whatever it is--
> is way too light to cast with a spinning rod.
> In fact, in the spin fishing context, it's almost
> worthless, because it is too light.
>
> So what is it?
> Should it be banned at "fly fishing only" sites.
> If so, what's the definition of fly fishing,
> so the authorities can enforce the rules?

[Scott Seidman]

"Hooked" > wrote in
:

> "Salmo Bytes" > wrote in message
> om...
>>
> http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/01-W
> igglers/Watusi_Worms/Watusi_Worms.html
>
>
> That's not a fly. That's a lure. And you could cast that with a
> spinning rod if you had the right rod. It would need to have a light
> tip section. Would also help if you use light line.
>
>

Agreed. That's worth a citation if you fish it in a fly fishing only area
in NY

Scott

[Douglas Campbell]

Where can one buy clear mylar sheeting?

I see no sense in distinguishing between fly fishing only and artificial
lures only if the weight and hooks restrictions are the same.

Doug Campbell

Salmo Bytes wrote:

>Cut a square of clear mylar sheeting. Scuff it
>up with sandpaper. Glue the Twister tail to
>the flat mylar with ZapAGap.
>
>
>
>So what is it?
>Should it be banned at "fly fishing only" sites.
>If so, what's the definition of fly fishing,
>so the authorities can enforce the rules?
>
>

[Stan Gula]

"Scott Seidman" > wrote in message
. 1.17...
> >
> > That's not a fly. That's a lure. And you could cast that with a
> > spinning rod if you had the right rod. It would need to have a light
> > tip section. Would also help if you use light line.
> >
> Agreed. That's worth a citation if you fish it in a fly fishing only area
> in NY
>

How does NY define 'fly'? And how do they define 'fly fishing'? Strangely,
Massachusetts has two flyfishing-only areas, but the F&W Abstracts (and all
regs published on their web site) do not define flyfishing or fly. Your
question motivated me to ask the head of F&W enforcement (I figure the guy
who can bust you is the guy you should listen to). I'll let you know what I
find out.

I would call Sandy's plastic worm a 'fly' and have used similar lures for
bass and bluegill fishing (on open regulation ponds). My definition of a
fly, which I've stated before, is anything light enough to cast effectively
on fly gear (I'm not going to define that...), not made out of living or
recently living animals (like a dead shiner). Of course, what I think
doesn't matter - the regulations matter, and thus my inquiry. I've seen
some bizarre regulations (to me, obviously, and not the people who wrote
them) in Maine. We were flyfishing on a 'flyfishing-only' lake, and some
local people thought fishing from a float tube was trolling (which is
outside the definition) because we weren't anchored. We *were* 'casting and
retrieving in the usual manner' which is how flyfishing is defined.

[Big Dale]

Tom Nixon would have got the biggest grin on his face if he had seen some of
Sandy's creations. Then he would have tied one on his old fly rod and caught
the biggest bass caught in the lake that day with one of them.

Big Dale

[Scott Seidman]

(Big Dale) wrote in
:

> Tom Nixon would have got the biggest grin on his face if he had seen
> some of Sandy's creations. Then he would have tied one on his old fly
> rod and caught the biggest bass caught in the lake that day with one
> of them.
>
> Big Dale
>

Can catch some pretty big fish with garden hackle too, but that doesn't
make it a fly.

Scott

[Salmo Bytes]

"Gene Cottrell" > wrote in message >...
> It's not a fly. We all know what a fly is and is not. It's kind of like
> pornography - I can't give you a specific definition, but I know it when I
> see it.
>

I don't necessarily disagree.
I have a vague sense of what a fly is, and a vague
sense that what I've made is a "fly rod lure,"
whatever that means.

Yellowstone Park has several waters that have been
designated "fly fishing only." I stopped in at the
ranger headquarters in Mammoth Hot springs (several
years ago) and asked "how do I know what fly fishing
is? How do I know whether I'm breaking the rules or not?"

The ranger said this question had come up numerous
times, and after much debate, they settled on
"not bait fishing" as their working definition
of fly fishing.

Other waters I've heard about mention diving lips
as off limits, but for some reason that prohibition
doesn't apply to Dahlberg Divers. I'm not really
taking a position here. In my home waters (Yellowstone
Park and southwest Montana) I can fish with any not-bait
thing I want. So it's a non issue for me.

But it is an interesting subject.

[Ken Fortenberry]

Salmo Bytes wrote:
> ...
> And this is a *troll* question, of sorts.
> But I am curious about the answers.
> ...
> So what is it?
> Should it be banned at "fly fishing only" sites.
> If so, what's the definition of fly fishing,
> so the authorities can enforce the rules?

If you want to call it a fly, that's fine with me. You could
call it a ice cream cone for all I care, but it's not a fly
in my book and flinging it isn't fly fishing.

Just Googling around I found the following definition from the
state of Pennsylvania:


Fishing may be done with artificial flies and streamers constructed of natural
or synthetic materials, so long as all flies are constructed in a normal fashion
on a single hook with components wound on or about the hook. Specifically
prohibited is the use of molded facsimiles or replicas of insects, earthworms,
fish eggs, fish or any invertebrate or vertebrate either singly or in
combination with the other materials. Also prohibited are other lures commonly
described as spinners, spoons, or plugs made of metals, plastic, wood, rubber or
like substances or a combination thereof.

So, if that "fly fishing only" regulation is still valid, using a
Watusi Worm in Pennsylvania "fly fishing only" water would be
illegal.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Dave LaCourse]

Stan Gula writes:

> We were flyfishing on a 'flyfishing-only' lake, and some
>local people thought fishing from a float tube was trolling (which is
>outside the definition) because we weren't anchored. We *were* 'casting and
>retrieving in the usual manner' which is how flyfishing is defined.

You can not troll in fly fishing only waters in Maine, but constantly casting
like you did, it NOT considered trolling, regardless your "vessel".

Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Stan Gula]

"Dave LaCourse" > wrote in message
...
> Stan Gula writes:
>
> > We were flyfishing on a 'flyfishing-only' lake, and some
> >local people thought fishing from a float tube was trolling (which is
> >outside the definition) because we weren't anchored. We *were* 'casting
and
> >retrieving in the usual manner' which is how flyfishing is defined.
>
> You can not troll in fly fishing only waters in Maine, but constantly
casting
> like you did, it NOT considered trolling, regardless your "vessel".

I totally agree, but the angry group at the boat launch when we were leaving
did not.

[JR]

Stan Gula wrote:

> I've seen
> some bizarre regulations (to me, obviously, and not the people who wrote
> them) in Maine. We were flyfishing on a 'flyfishing-only' lake, and some
> local people thought fishing from a float tube was trolling (which is
> outside the definition) because we weren't anchored. We *were* 'casting and
> retrieving in the usual manner' which is how flyfishing is defined.

That's a shame. "Wind drifting", watching the scenery and the the sky,
with the fly trailing, is one of the very most relaxing and pleasing
forms of fishing a fly. I figure if you cast once every half hour, it's
fly fishing.

JR

[Big Dale]

Scott wrote:>Can catch some pretty big fish with garden hackle too, but that
doesn't
>make it a fly.
>

You seem to have a pretty narrow idea of what a fly is. You need to be open to
ideas and flies that have been around and catching fish on fly rods for over
50 years.

Big Dale

[Stan Gula]

<hooked wrote>
> >> > That's not a fly. That's a lure. And you could cast that with a
> >> > spinning rod if you had the right rod. It would need to have a
> >> > light tip section. Would also help if you use light line.
> >> >
<scott wrote>
> >> Agreed. That's worth a citation if you fish it in a fly fishing only
> >> area in NY
> >>
<stan wrote>
> > How does NY define 'fly'? And how do they define 'fly fishing'?
> > Strangely, Massachusetts has two flyfishing-only areas, but the F&W
> > Abstracts (and all regs published on their web site) do not define
> > flyfishing or fly. Your question motivated me to ask the head of F&W
> > enforcement (I figure the guy who can bust you is the guy you should
> > listen to). I'll let you know what I find out.
> >
> > I would call Sandy's plastic worm a 'fly' and have used similar lures
> > for bass and bluegill fishing (on open regulation ponds). My
> > definition of a fly, which I've stated before, is anything light
> > enough to cast effectively on fly gear (I'm not going to define
> > that...), not made out of living or recently living animals (like a
> > dead shiner). Of course, what I think doesn't matter - the
> > regulations matter, and thus my inquiry. I've seen some bizarre
> > regulations (to me, obviously, and not the people who wrote them) in
> > Maine. We were flyfishing on a 'flyfishing-only' lake, and some local
> > people thought fishing from a float tube was trolling (which is
> > outside the definition) because we weren't anchored. We *were*
> > 'casting and retrieving in the usual manner' which is how flyfishing
> > is defined.
> >
<and scott wrote>
> NY is a little loose. The regs define artificial fly as "Artificial Fly
> means a hook with no more than two points dressed with feathers, hair,
> thread, tinsel or any similar material to which no hooks, spinners,
> spoons or similar devices have been added."
>
> Is a Mr Twister a "similar material"?? A fine question, and the answer
> is probably "what does Mr. CO think?" and that's probably got more to do
> with the attitude of the angler he's talking to at the moment than what's
> on the end of the line. Of course, a disagreement with a CO can be
> resolved in a court, but is it worth a day in court just to use a fly
> that might not be a fly? I'm anxious to find out what your F&W guy says.

I just heard back from Major Roger Arduini, Mass. F&W Inland Enforcement
Bureau Chief, that we only define fly fishing, and not fly. Fly fishing is:
"use of a conventional fly rod and fly line". Both of the flyfishing-only
areas are also C&R, artificial lure only, so you can use anything on your
fly line except live or dead bait.

Sandy's worm (and my own Mr Twister experiments) can be legally used in
flyfishing-only water.

[Rob S.]

"Hooked" > wrote in message >...
> "Salmo Bytes" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/01-Wigglers/Watusi_Worms/Watusi_Worms.html
>
>
> That's not a fly. That's a lure. And you could cast that with a spinning rod
> if you had the right rod. It would need to have a light tip section. Would
> also help if you use light line.

I agree on this being a lure, but what is your definition of a fly?

I believe most streamers in use today are more properly called lures, are they not?

[Rob S.]

(Salmo Bytes) wrote in message >...
[snip]
>
> Yellowstone Park has several waters that have been
> designated "fly fishing only." I stopped in at the
> ranger headquarters in Mammoth Hot springs (several
> years ago) and asked "how do I know what fly fishing
> is? How do I know whether I'm breaking the rules or not?"
>
> The ranger said this question had come up numerous
> times, and after much debate, they settled on
> "not bait fishing" as their working definition
> of fly fishing.
>
[snip]

in NJ, there are only 2 flyfishing only sections of water that
I'm aware of, both on the same river.

The NJ regs specify that it must be flyfishing gear,
and go on to describe the type of reel and line, specifically excluding
fixed spool spinning reels as well as line made up of only monofilament
and related lines, as well as specifying
no bait, scent etc. I do not believe the regs specify the type of lure
or fly in these waters.

So, your twister tail, jig/lure/fly would be perfectly acceptable.

[Dave LaCourse]

Rob S.

>>
>>
>> That's not a fly. That's a lure. And you could cast that with a spinning
>rod
>> if you had the right rod. It would need to have a light tip section. Would
>> also help if you use light line.
>
>I agree on this being a lure, but what is your definition of a fly?
>
>I believe most streamers in use today are more properly called lures, are
>they not?
>

All flies are lures. All lures are not flies.
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Gene Cottrell]

NJ does define a fly as this:
"Only artificial flies are allowed, which are expressly limited to dry
flies, wet flies, bucktails, nymphs and streamers. Expressly prohibited are
metal, plastic, or wooden lures, plugs, spinners attached or any multiple
hooked device."

If you can call the described lure a dry fly, wet fly, bucktail, nymph or
streamer, then you have a better imagination than I do.

Gene


"Rob S." > wrote in message
om...
> in NJ, there are only 2 flyfishing only sections of water that
> I'm aware of, both on the same river.
>
> The NJ regs specify that it must be flyfishing gear,
> and go on to describe the type of reel and line, specifically excluding
> fixed spool spinning reels as well as line made up of only monofilament
> and related lines, as well as specifying
> no bait, scent etc. I do not believe the regs specify the type of lure
> or fly in these waters.
>
> So, your twister tail, jig/lure/fly would be perfectly acceptable.

[Hooked]

"Gene Cottrell" > wrote in message
...
> NJ does define a fly as this:
> "Only artificial flies are allowed, which are expressly limited to dry
> flies, wet flies, bucktails, nymphs and streamers. Expressly prohibited
are
> metal, plastic, or wooden lures, plugs, spinners attached or any multiple
> hooked device."
>
> If you can call the described lure a dry fly, wet fly, bucktail, nymph or
> streamer, then you have a better imagination than I do.
>
> Gene


Does the State of New Jersey allow the use of poppers as flies? They could
use plastic or wood (balsa) in their construction.

[Hooked]

"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> snip< We were flyfishing on a 'flyfishing-only' lake, and some
> local people thought fishing from a float tube was trolling (which is
> outside the definition) because we weren't anchored. We *were* 'casting
and
> retrieving in the usual manner' which is how flyfishing is defined.
>
>

I have done that many times while just drifting along. Even right in front
of the game warden here in WI, and nothing was said because I was casting
and immediately retrieving. Which is how this law is defined here in the
Badger State.

[Hooked]

"Rob S." > wrote in message
om...
>
> I agree on this being a lure, but what is your definition of a fly?
>
> I believe most streamers in use today are more properly called lures, are
they not?


If I tie some hair and feathers to a hook, it's a fly. If I glue (or tie)
some plastic to a hook, it's a lure.

Your question should have asked about poppers, not streamers. There you have
both feathers and plastic tied (or glued) to a hook.

[Hooked]

"Douglas Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
>Where can one buy clear mylar sheeting?
>
> I see no sense in distinguishing between fly fishing only and artificial
> lures only if the weight and hooks restrictions are the same.
>
> Doug Campbell


Try a hobby shop.

Maybe a hardware shop.

And maybe even a fly shop.

[Hooked]

"Ken Fortenberry" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Fishing may be done with artificial flies and streamers constructed of
natural
> or synthetic materials, so long as all flies are constructed in a normal
fashion
> on a single hook with components wound on or about the hook. Specifically
> prohibited is the use of molded facsimiles or replicas of insects,
earthworms,
> fish eggs, fish or any invertebrate or vertebrate either singly or in
> combination with the other materials. Also prohibited are other lures
commonly
> described as spinners, spoons, or plugs made of metals, plastic, wood,
rubber or
> like substances or a combination thereof.
>


I guess if I wanted to fish one of my hot glue eggs, I better tie some
marabou on for imitating the milt.

[Salmo Bytes]

Douglas Campbell > wrote in message >...
> Where can one buy clear mylar sheeting?
>

You can get mylar sheeting at drafting supplies stores
blueprint shops and/or art supplies stores.

[-- Rob]

>If you can call the described lure a dry fly, wet fly, bucktail, nymph or
>streamer, then you have a better imagination than I do.
>
>Gene
>

Gene,

Thanks for the correction, but yes, if I was on flyfishing water I would argue
that was a nymph or streamer. And I don't think I'd get written up at all as
long as I was using fly gear.

But that's me...I'm not saying you're wrong :)

-- Rob

[Gene Cottrell]

By the law, what you have is a plastic lure (mylar and a plastic worm) which
is specifically prohibited. Whether you would get written up is another
thing. About 20 years ago, I got into it with a guy in the "Orange Pit"
pool on the "Musky". He was using chunks of foam automobile seat stuffing,
which he just threaded on the hook. He was trying to imitate bread.

For those not familiar with the "Orange Pit" - it was a little restaurant
that had a good pool on the no-kill section behind it and customers used to
come out to watch the fishermen. They would throw pieces of bread from
their sandwiches into the water and the fish would go crazy - big ones too!
Those fish were extremely selective, but a tossed piece of bread wouldn't
last 2 seconds. Alas, this stretch is no longer a no-kill section. I was
there a couple of years ago and there was a huge sulfur hatch and the only
thing rising was chubbs. 30 years ago, it was an amazing place. Right along
busy US46 with the Dairy Queen pool, the Texaco Pool, the Car Wash pool, and
the Power Line pool. Some pretty good hatches, considering the run-off from
all the pavement along it's route. The good part was, I could get to it
real quick when I got home from work at 6:30PM and catch the evening hatches
and then get a DQ on my way home after dark.

Gene

"-- Rob" > wrote in message
...
> >If you can call the described lure a dry fly, wet fly, bucktail, nymph or
> >streamer, then you have a better imagination than I do.
> >
> >Gene
> >
>
> Gene,
>
> Thanks for the correction, but yes, if I was on flyfishing water I would
argue
> that was a nymph or streamer. And I don't think I'd get written up at all
as
> long as I was using fly gear.
>
> But that's me...I'm not saying you're wrong :)
>
> -- Rob

[daytripper]

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:53:04 GMT, "Hooked" > wrote:

>"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> snip< We were flyfishing on a 'flyfishing-only' lake, and some
>> local people thought fishing from a float tube was trolling (which is
>> outside the definition) because we weren't anchored. We *were* 'casting
>and
>> retrieving in the usual manner' which is how flyfishing is defined.
>>
>>
>
>I have done that many times while just drifting along. Even right in front
>of the game warden here in WI, and nothing was said because I was casting
>and immediately retrieving. Which is how this law is defined here in the
>Badger State.

In Maine the *convention* is you have to pull up and recast before your boat
has traveled three lengths of itsownself. I've never looked for an actual
regulation covering this, however, but the folks at Kenebago Lake have a real
nice telescope to make sure the patrons don't violate the convention...

/daytripper

[Stan Gula]

"Gene Cottrell" > wrote in message
...
> By the law, what you have is a plastic lure (mylar and a plastic worm)
which
> is specifically prohibited.

That depends on where you are, of course. I have no idea where Interstate
46 is, or the Dairy Queen pool, etc., so I have to assume you're right about
your local regs. Sandy's Watusi Worm is perfectly legal where I live
(Massachusetts), even though it would be frowned upon by some. The problem
with these flyfishing-only regs that try to define 'fly' is: I can probably
come up with something that would be legal but could be contested, and
probably also something illegal that would probably pass. I don't
understand why the 'fly' is such a big deal. Single hook, barbless I can
understand, but restrictions on materials seems open to misinterpretation by
all sides.

[Hooked]

"Gene Cottrell" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>Right along
> busy US46 with the Dairy Queen pool, the Texaco Pool, the Car Wash pool,
and
> the Power Line pool.


The names of all those pools, makes me think of all the SUV's and trucks
driving around named after our National Parks. Sequoia, Sedona, Tacoma,
Navajo, Cheyenne, Durango, Kahuna, Rainier, Santa Fe, Sonoma, Tahoe,
Yukon...

Kind of makes me sick of the idea of naming these over polluting gas
guzzlers after our most sacred of sanctities.

But then again, it's almost like naming the sports stadiums too. Miller
Park, Qualcomm Stadium, 3-Com Park, Bank One Ball Park, Cinergy Field, Coors
Field, Minute Maid Park, Tropicana Field, US Cellular Field...

Although I would think us fishermen are a lot more resourceful and these
names you provided are named such because they are near the local Dairy
Queen, the Texaco Station and the car wash. Not like the corporations to
name a section of river after themselves.

At least not yet. Give them another year of republican control of our
government and it may become mandatory.

[Hooked]

"daytripper" > wrote in message
...
>
> In Maine the *convention* is you have to pull up and recast before your
boat
> has traveled three lengths of itsownself. I've never looked for an actual
> regulation covering this, however, but the folks at Kenebago Lake have a
real
> nice telescope to make sure the patrons don't violate the convention...
>
> /daytripper

Must be a real bitch using a float tube that's what, 3' in circumference?
Make a long cast and you're **** out of luck!!

Come to think of it, you can use a motor here in WI so long as you cast and
immediately retrieve.

You can drift fish legally anywhere here.

It's only called trolling if the boat is being powered by gas/electric
motor, rowing or by sail.

Just having the boat drifting along in the current or by wind against the
hull is quite legal.

[daytripper]

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 07:59:02 GMT, "Hooked" > wrote:

>"daytripper" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> In Maine the *convention* is you have to pull up and recast before your
>boat
>> has traveled three lengths of itsownself. I've never looked for an actual
>> regulation covering this, however, but the folks at Kenebago Lake have a
>real
>> nice telescope to make sure the patrons don't violate the convention...
>>
>> /daytripper
>
>Must be a real bitch using a float tube that's what, 3' in circumference?
>Make a long cast and you're **** out of luck!!
>
>Come to think of it, you can use a motor here in WI so long as you cast and
>immediately retrieve.
>
>You can drift fish legally anywhere here.
>
>It's only called trolling if the boat is being powered by gas/electric
>motor, rowing or by sail.
>
>Just having the boat drifting along in the current or by wind against the
>hull is quite legal.

So all we have to do is move Maine a thousand miles west ;-)

[-- Rob]

>By the law, what you have is a plastic lure (mylar and a plastic worm) which
>is specifically prohibited.

Gene,

I think that's why the other state Fish & Game folks quoted said "not bait".
Once you start down this line of reasoning, you can argue against many types of
flies, for example some stone fly imitations posted as "fly" patterns (the
ultra realistic kinds which are all "plastic lures"). Indeed, it's a fly, but
the synthetics nowadays do not allow such distinctions as you are adamantly
stating.
The law would have to be worded very specifically and specifying "plastic lure"
is not sufficient for today's products.

That was my only point, and really agree with the spirit of what you're saying.
I'm only playing "devil's advocate" so to speak.

Interesting stuff about the Orange Pit and all. Alas I wasn't fishing for trout
back then...

-- Rob

[Hooked]

"daytripper" > wrote in message
...
>
> So all we have to do is move Maine a thousand miles west ;-)

Yeah.

I guess.

But it'll still be called Wisconsin.

[daytripper]

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:46:41 GMT, "Hooked" > wrote:

>"daytripper" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> So all we have to do is move Maine a thousand miles west ;-)
>
>Yeah.
>
>I guess.
>
>But it'll still be called Wisconsin.

Oh, ****! We can't be having that, can we.

/daytripper ("Oh gee. Maine moved in. There goes the State..." ;-)

[Bob Sheedy]

Reminds me of a "fly" I used to tie for trollers who wanted to catch a trout
and couldn't get them to take a "twister tail" without a few feathers on the
head. Found that the Tullis Wigglebug worked better, emulaing a flat fish.
Then it passed to simple bloodworm imitations fished under a small bobber. A
few of the guys eventually became bonafide flyfishers. It's all in the
transition. Stuff that wiggles is effective.

Bob S

--
Bob Sheedy
www.mwflyfishing.net
Author: Lake Fly Fishing Strategies
Bob Sheedy's Top Fifty Stillwater Fly Patterns
"Salmo Bytes" > wrote in message
om...
> No photos yet.
> Photos will happen this comming weekend, or soon
> thereafter.
>
> And this is a *troll* question, of sorts.
> But I am curious about the answers.
>
> What I'm about to describe will generate
> (at least a few) "this isn't fly fishing"
> comments which, in fact, may well be true.
> But if the following isn't fly fishing,
> what is it? That's the question.
>
> =====Watusi Worms=======
> CA glue (aka super glue) doesn't adhere
> well to most plastics. The key word here
> is most. CA glue does adhere very well to
> the soft flexible plastic rubber worms
> and Mr Twister tails are made from. CA
> glue also adheres well to any hard plastic
> that has been scored (scratched) with sandy paper.
> So here's the deal:
>
> Buy a bag of Mr Twister Tails or Berkeley Power Baits.
> Use a razor blade to slice the front end off
> the twister body, at a flat downward slant,
> approximately 30-40 degrees off horizontal.
>
> Cut a square of clear mylar sheeting. Scuff it
> up with sandpaper. Glue the Twister tail to
> the flat mylar with ZapAGap.
>
> Flatten a non-lead split shot with pliers.
> Glue it to the flat mylar, just below
> the worm body. Use a dremel tool and a 1/32"
> drill bit to bore a hole in the middle of
> the flattened split shot.
>
> Use scissors to trim the mylar to the shape
> of a crankbait diving bill.
>
> Thread leader through the whole in the bill.
> Snell the leader to a straight eye grasshopper hook.
> Put a small barrel swivel at the other end of
> the tippet. Tie the barrel to your leader.
>
> Now you have a soft plasctic Mr Twister tail
> that is no heavier than a lead wrapped #4
> Woolly Bugger. So you can cast it with a fly rod.
> When you retrieve it, it dives and wiggles
> frantically. This fly or lure--whatever it is--
> is way too light to cast with a spinning rod.
> In fact, in the spin fishing context, it's almost
> worthless, because it is too light.
>
> So what is it?
> Should it be banned at "fly fishing only" sites.
> If so, what's the definition of fly fishing,
> so the authorities can enforce the rules?

[B J Conner]

That would get you a citation in Oregon. Here's the definition from the
ODFG regulations.

"Artifactual Fly: A fly is a hook, dressed with conventional fly tying
materials. The affixed material many be natural or synthetic. Tied in
conjunction with other materials, the following items may be part of the
fly: wire (lead other metal) used for weighing the fly, dumbbell eyes or
beads (metal, glass or plastic). A fly is not a hook to which sinkers.,
molded weights, spinners, spoons of similar attractors are attached."
I have heard of people being busted for using MR Twisters in the Norht
Umpqua.



"Salmo Bytes" > wrote in message
om...
> No photos yet.
> Photos will happen this comming weekend, or soon
> thereafter.
>
> And this is a *troll* question, of sorts.
> But I am curious about the answers.
>
> What I'm about to describe will generate
> (at least a few) "this isn't fly fishing"
> comments which, in fact, may well be true.
> But if the following isn't fly fishing,
> what is it? That's the question.
>
> =====Watusi Worms=======
> CA glue (aka super glue) doesn't adhere
> well to most plastics. The key word here
> is most. CA glue does adhere very well to
> the soft flexible plastic rubber worms
> and Mr Twister tails are made from. CA
> glue also adheres well to any hard plastic
> that has been scored (scratched) with sandy paper.
> So here's the deal:
>
> Buy a bag of Mr Twister Tails or Berkeley Power Baits.
> Use a razor blade to slice the front end off
> the twister body, at a flat downward slant,
> approximately 30-40 degrees off horizontal.
>
> Cut a square of clear mylar sheeting. Scuff it
> up with sandpaper. Glue the Twister tail to
> the flat mylar with ZapAGap.
>
> Flatten a non-lead split shot with pliers.
> Glue it to the flat mylar, just below
> the worm body. Use a dremel tool and a 1/32"
> drill bit to bore a hole in the middle of
> the flattened split shot.
>
> Use scissors to trim the mylar to the shape
> of a crankbait diving bill.
>
> Thread leader through the whole in the bill.
> Snell the leader to a straight eye grasshopper hook.
> Put a small barrel swivel at the other end of
> the tippet. Tie the barrel to your leader.
>
> Now you have a soft plasctic Mr Twister tail
> that is no heavier than a lead wrapped #4
> Woolly Bugger. So you can cast it with a fly rod.
> When you retrieve it, it dives and wiggles
> frantically. This fly or lure--whatever it is--
> is way too light to cast with a spinning rod.
> In fact, in the spin fishing context, it's almost
> worthless, because it is too light.
>
> So what is it?
> Should it be banned at "fly fishing only" sites.
> If so, what's the definition of fly fishing,
> so the authorities can enforce the rules?

[JR]

B J Conner wrote:
>
> That would get you a citation in Oregon. Here's the definition from the
> ODFG regulations.
>
> "Artifactual Fly: A fly is a hook, dressed with conventional fly tying
> materials. The affixed material many be natural or synthetic. Tied in
> conjunction with other materials, the following items may be part of the
> fly: wire (lead other metal) used for weighing the fly, dumbbell eyes or
> beads (metal, glass or plastic). A fly is not a hook to which sinkers.,
> molded weights, spinners, spoons of similar attractors are attached."
> I have heard of people being busted for using MR Twisters in the Norht
> Umpqua.

And yet on the N. Umpqua "fly only" water, you can fish your fly under a
bubble, using spinning gear. What a world!

JR

[Salmo Bytes]

(Salmo Bytes) wrote in message >...
> No photos yet.
> Photos will happen this comming weekend, or soon
> thereafter.
>
> And this is a *troll* question, of sorts.
> But I am curious about the answers.
>
> What I'm about to describe will generate
> (at least a few) "this isn't fly fishing"
> comments which, in fact, may well be true.
> But if the following isn't fly fishing,
> what is it? That's the question.
>
>http://montana-riverboats.com/static_pages/Flies/Sandy_Pittendrigh/01-Wigglers/Watusi_Worms/Watusi_Worms.html

Well I got a lot of interesting answers.
My personal view is that it's almost impossible and silly anway--to
try to write any rigidly defined, pigeon hole definition of a fly.
Synthetic
materials and the growning influence of sal****er fly fishing will
continue
to blur the lines between fly and lure.

But this thread did remind me that local conditions vary, and
regulations
should be decided by the folks who fish there. I wouldn't want to be
the one
to tell the North Umpqua community, for instance, that they had to let
the
seething masses of spin fishermen up above the Glide narrows.

I'll fish my fly rod lures where they are legal, and keep my mouth
shut where they aren't.

[Gene Cottrell]

I haven't fished in Maine for about 20 years, but back then you were not
allowed to "troll", as you state, but you also could not have any weight
whatsoever associated with the fly or line. That meant, no split shot and
absolutely no weighted flies. Sinking lines were allowed, however. When I
went to Grants Camps and wanted to fish the lake with a streamer or nymph, I
had to use a sinking line and wait a loooooong time before I began a
retrieve. Caught some nice brookies that way, though. I preferred fishing
for landlocks in the river though.

Gene

"daytripper" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:53:04 GMT, "Hooked" > wrote:
>
> >"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>
> >> snip< We were flyfishing on a 'flyfishing-only' lake, and some
> >> local people thought fishing from a float tube was trolling (which is
> >> outside the definition) because we weren't anchored. We *were*
'casting
> >and
> >> retrieving in the usual manner' which is how flyfishing is defined.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I have done that many times while just drifting along. Even right in
front
> >of the game warden here in WI, and nothing was said because I was casting
> >and immediately retrieving. Which is how this law is defined here in the
> >Badger State.
>
> In Maine the *convention* is you have to pull up and recast before your
boat
> has traveled three lengths of itsownself. I've never looked for an actual
> regulation covering this, however, but the folks at Kenebago Lake have a
real
> nice telescope to make sure the patrons don't violate the convention...
>
> /daytripper

[Hooked]

"Gene Cottrell" > wrote in message
...
> I haven't fished in Maine for about 20 years, but back then you were not
> allowed to "troll", as you state, but you also could not have any weight
> whatsoever associated with the fly or line. That meant, no split shot and
> absolutely no weighted flies. Sinking lines were allowed, however. When I
> went to Grants Camps and wanted to fish the lake with a streamer or nymph,
I
> had to use a sinking line and wait a loooooong time before I began a
> retrieve. Caught some nice brookies that way, though. I preferred fishing
> for landlocks in the river though.
>


Weren't the Rangeley (i.e. Carrie Stevens streamer patterns) style flies
designed in Maine for use in trolling for landlocked salmon?

[Stan Gula]

Hooked wrote:
<stuff about Maine flyfishing regs snipped>>
>
> Weren't the Rangeley (i.e. Carrie Stevens streamer patterns) style flies
> designed in Maine for use in trolling for landlocked salmon?
>

Yes, but they were also used for casting. Regulations vary from lake to
lake.

[Hooked]

"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > Weren't the Rangeley (i.e. Carrie Stevens streamer patterns) style flies
> > designed in Maine for use in trolling for landlocked salmon?
> >
>
> Yes, but they were also used for casting. Regulations vary from lake to
> lake.

Thanks for straightening that out for me. I was beginning to wonder.

[Gene Cottrell]

Regulations do vary from lake to lake. I've done most of my fishing in
Maine in the small ponds in the area of Jackman and Rockwood. In most of
those ponds the regulations say "Flyfishing Only" which, in Maine, means no
trolling, weighted flies or splitshot. (or at least meant that 20 years ago)


"Stan Gula" > wrote in message
...
> Hooked wrote:
> <stuff about Maine flyfishing regs snipped>>
> >
> > Weren't the Rangeley (i.e. Carrie Stevens streamer patterns) style flies
> > designed in Maine for use in trolling for landlocked salmon?
> >
>
> Yes, but they were also used for casting. Regulations vary from lake to
> lake.