Fly-Tying with Sili Skin?

[Robert]

Last year I met this professional fly tyer. We were fishing in Oostvoorne
(Netherlands)on rainbow trout and he showed me some great new material. The
name is " Sili Skin " a new fly tying material from the U.S.A. It feels like
rubber comes in lots of different colours, when tied well looks like a fish
and best of all when you fish with a Sili Skin fly it swims like a fish.
Last year I could not find it anywhere on the web. Today I saw a fly on the
Orvis site made off Sili Skin. Salt Water fly Sili Skin
I found a website that sells this material:
Salt Water Edge

Is there anyone here who is tying with this material?
If you do please tell me more.

Tight Lines
Robert


--
Met de vriendelijke groeten
Robert

www.jiu-jitsu-rotterdam.nl

[Mike Connor]

"Robert" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

<SNIP>
> Is there anyone here who is tying with this material?
> If you do please tell me more.
>
> Tight Lines
> Robert
>

I have used it. The correct name is Sili skin

If you want more information look here;
http://www.google.de/search?q=sili+skin+flies&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=de&meta=

TL
MC

[Robert]

Hi Mike,



Do you personally like this material?

Did you have any success catching fish with Sili scin flys?

Is this stuff easy to use?



Thank you again for answering my Sili scin questions.

I cannot find it here in Holland so I have to buy it online somewhere...



Tight Lines
Robert


"Mike Connor" > schreef in bericht
...
>
> "Robert" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
>
> <SNIP>
> > Is there anyone here who is tying with this material?
> > If you do please tell me more.
> >
> > Tight Lines
> > Robert
> >
>
> I have used it. The correct name is Sili skin
>
> If you want more information look here;
>
http://www.google.de/search?q=sili+skin+flies&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=de&meta=
>
> TL
> MC
>
>

[Mike Connor]

"Robert" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> Hi Mike,
>
>
>
> Do you personally like this material?
>
> Did you have any success catching fish with Sili scin flys?
>
> Is this stuff easy to use?
>
>
>
> Thank you again for answering my Sili scin questions.
>
> I cannot find it here in Holland so I have to buy it online somewhere...
>
>
>
> Tight Lines
> Robert
>
>

Hi Robert,

I was given a few pieces to try, along with a few sample flies. It looks
very attractive, and it is relatively easy to use. The flies I was given
were not much use in my opinion, as although they closely resembled some
baitfish, they had no movement whatsoever. I would not use them for
fishing, and I would not tie any flies similar to them, as I would be most
unlikely to catch anything on them, except perhaps under certain very
specific conditions.

The guy who invented this stuff, Mr.Chocklett, if I recall correctly, did so
with the specific intention of imitating some jerk baits which were popular
for bass. Jerk baits also have no built in movement as such, they are
basically just solid lures which are jerked. The jerking is basically what
triggers the fish to strike, not the lure.

I prefer flies that give the illusion of life, even when moved slowly and
naturally. By this, I mean they should behave naturally in the water, as
much like the real thing as possible. A lump of basically rigid plastic,
irrespective of what it is called, what it looks like, or the hype
surrounding it, will simply not do that.

In my opinion you would be better served spending your money on something
else. This stuff is most unlikely to bring you the success you obviously
expect of it. It is not cheap either.

Get some arctic fox, and tie up some lures with that. Have a look at these
lures for instance; http://www.sexyloops.com/connorsmetre/saltfly7.shtml
they have all caught good seatrout and other fish. They are designed to be
mobile and lifelike in the water, and they work.

Despite the claims being made for this stuff, it is just another material
which somebody has invented or discovered, and wants to earn money by
selling. There is nothing magical about it, and there is no way a lump of
dead and lifeless plastic is going to be better than a well designed and
tied hair, fur, or other mobile fish imitation. Indeed I doubt it would even
outfish a standard woolly bugger under practically any given conditions.

I wont be buying any of it anyway.

Sorry if this is disappointing for you, but I can see no point in
prevaricating.

TL
MC

[Stephen Welsh]

"Robert" > wrote in
:

>
> Last year I met this professional fly tyer. We were fishing in
> Oostvoorne (Netherlands)on rainbow trout and he showed me some great
> new material. The name is " Sili Skin "

Wasn't Theo was it?

http://www.fish4ituk.co.uk/feature/theo/theo.htm

http://www.elbi.nl/theo%20oostvoorne%20en.htm

I came across the above link accidentally a few weeks ago
see if you can get some 'eelskin' instead/as well.

:-)

Steve

[Robert]

"Stephen Welsh" > schreef in bericht
. 1.4...
> "Robert" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > Last year I met this professional fly tyer. We were fishing in
> > Oostvoorne (Netherlands)on rainbow trout and he showed me some great
> > new material. The name is " Sili Skin "
>
> Wasn't Theo was it?
>
> http://www.fish4ituk.co.uk/feature/theo/theo.htm
>
> http://www.elbi.nl/theo%20oostvoorne%20en.htm
>
> I came across the above link accidentally a few weeks ago
> see if you can get some 'eelskin' instead/as well.
>
> :-)
>
> Steve
Hi Steve

Yeah it was him, nice guy I couldn't remember his name.

We where there fishing next to him like the story he described. He was
catching big rainbow trout's (all 60+) one after another (+-7).We didn't
catch anything compare to him, my buddy didn't catch a fish and I just
managed to catch one small rainbow-trout.

The flies Theo Bakelaar made of Sili skin looked like real fish and in the
water they behaved like swimming fish. Amazing........~...~...~..


Tight Lines
Robert

[Hans van der Stroom]

"Robert" > schreef in bericht
...
>
> I cannot find it here in Holland so I have to buy it online somewhere...
>
> Tight Lines
> Robert

Try Rothfusz in Delft - I bought some there today, so I'm sure he's selling
it. Wouldn't be too much of a problem for him to order special colours, etc.

Hans

[Hans van der Stroom]

"Robert" > schreef in bericht
...
> Last year I met this professional fly tyer. We were fishing in Oostvoorne
> (Netherlands)on rainbow trout and he showed me some great new material.
The
> name is " Sili Skin " a new fly tying material from the U.S.A. It feels
like
> rubber comes in lots of different colours, when tied well looks like a
fish
> and best of all when you fish with a Sili Skin fly it swims like a fish.
> Last year I could not find it anywhere on the web. Today I saw a fly on
the
> Orvis site made off Sili Skin. Salt Water fly Sili Skin
> I found a website that sells this material:
> Salt Water Edge
>
> Is there anyone here who is tying with this material?
> If you do please tell me more.
>
> Tight Lines
> Robert

Only question that remains from a purists point of view is:
Is this actually flytying or rather some kind of folding prefab materials
around a hookshank? I did some experiments with the stuff this afternoon.
Which made me think that the "flies" I have seen could actually better be
made by the manufacturers of twistertails and other rubbery creatures.

So IMHO this material brings us more or less to questions like:
"what is the essence of tying flies?". What are the limits (when do we stop
calling it flytying and start naming it "producing bait"?

[Robert]

Hi Hans,
Thank you for your response,
Maybe we can call it fly folding.
Was the Sili skin material easy to use? Do you like it?
How much did you pay for one bag?

Tight lines!
Robert

"Hans van der Stroom" > schreef in bericht
...
>
> "Robert" > schreef in bericht
> ...
> > Last year I met this professional fly tyer. We were fishing in
Oostvoorne
> > (Netherlands)on rainbow trout and he showed me some great new material.
> The
> > name is " Sili Skin " a new fly tying material from the U.S.A. It feels
> like
> > rubber comes in lots of different colours, when tied well looks like a
> fish
> > and best of all when you fish with a Sili Skin fly it swims like a fish.
> > Last year I could not find it anywhere on the web. Today I saw a fly on
> the
> > Orvis site made off Sili Skin. Salt Water fly Sili Skin
> > I found a website that sells this material:
> > Salt Water Edge
> >
> > Is there anyone here who is tying with this material?
> > If you do please tell me more.
> >
> > Tight Lines
> > Robert
>
> Only question that remains from a purists point of view is:
> Is this actually flytying or rather some kind of folding prefab
materials
> around a hookshank? I did some experiments with the stuff this afternoon.
> Which made me think that the "flies" I have seen could actually better be
> made by the manufacturers of twistertails and other rubbery creatures.
>
> So IMHO this material brings us more or less to questions like:
> "what is the essence of tying flies?". What are the limits (when do we
stop
> calling it flytying and start naming it "producing bait"?
>
>

[Robert]

Thank you very much Mike for your complete answer.

I understand it's not the magical wonder stuff every fish wants to jump on
but I am intrigued by the possibilities of this material.

I will take your advice and get some Artic fox to tie some nice sea trout
flies.



Thanks again

Robert


"Mike Connor" > schreef in bericht
...
>
> "Robert" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> >
> >
> > Do you personally like this material?
> >
> > Did you have any success catching fish with Sili scin flys?
> >
> > Is this stuff easy to use?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you again for answering my Sili scin questions.
> >
> > I cannot find it here in Holland so I have to buy it online somewhere...
> >
> >
> >
> > Tight Lines
> > Robert
> >
> >
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> I was given a few pieces to try, along with a few sample flies. It looks
> very attractive, and it is relatively easy to use. The flies I was given
> were not much use in my opinion, as although they closely resembled some
> baitfish, they had no movement whatsoever. I would not use them for
> fishing, and I would not tie any flies similar to them, as I would be most
> unlikely to catch anything on them, except perhaps under certain very
> specific conditions.
>
> The guy who invented this stuff, Mr.Chocklett, if I recall correctly, did
so
> with the specific intention of imitating some jerk baits which were
popular
> for bass. Jerk baits also have no built in movement as such, they are
> basically just solid lures which are jerked. The jerking is basically
what
> triggers the fish to strike, not the lure.
>
> I prefer flies that give the illusion of life, even when moved slowly and
> naturally. By this, I mean they should behave naturally in the water, as
> much like the real thing as possible. A lump of basically rigid plastic,
> irrespective of what it is called, what it looks like, or the hype
> surrounding it, will simply not do that.
>
> In my opinion you would be better served spending your money on something
> else. This stuff is most unlikely to bring you the success you obviously
> expect of it. It is not cheap either.
>
> Get some arctic fox, and tie up some lures with that. Have a look at these
> lures for instance; http://www.sexyloops.com/connorsmetre/saltfly7.shtml
> they have all caught good seatrout and other fish. They are designed to be
> mobile and lifelike in the water, and they work.
>
> Despite the claims being made for this stuff, it is just another material
> which somebody has invented or discovered, and wants to earn money by
> selling. There is nothing magical about it, and there is no way a lump of
> dead and lifeless plastic is going to be better than a well designed and
> tied hair, fur, or other mobile fish imitation. Indeed I doubt it would
even
> outfish a standard woolly bugger under practically any given conditions.
>
> I wont be buying any of it anyway.
>
> Sorry if this is disappointing for you, but I can see no point in
> prevaricating.
>
> TL
> MC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Hans van der Stroom]

"Robert" > schreef in bericht
...
> Hi Hans,
> Thank you for your response,
> Maybe we can call it fly folding.
> Was the Sili skin material easy to use? Do you like it?
> How much did you pay for one bag?
>
> Tight lines!
> Robert

Might be folding, but the "flies" looked good. Materials made it possible to
come up with very interesting imitations for small baitfish, fry and crabs.
Have to experiment for further use. The sleeves are sold for Euro 8,90 by
Rothfusz in Delft - which is where I live, so if you like I can send some
over when you're far away.
It's kinda sticky business working with Sili Skin, but you get used to it!

Greetings,
Hans

[Salmo Bytes]

"Hans van der Stroom" > wrote in message >...

> Is this actually flytying?
> what is the essence of tying flies?
> What are the limits?
> when do we stop calling it flytying and start naming it producing bait?


If working with Silli Skin *was* suddenly decalared as
lure making, would you still continue to experiment with it?
....lure-making one moment, fly tying the next?

Is it the label or the activity that matters most?
Why does it matter anyway?

[Mike Connor]

"Salmo Bytes" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
<SNIP>

> If working with Silli Skin *was* suddenly decalared as
> lure making, would you still continue to experiment with it?
> ...lure-making one moment, fly tying the next?
>
> Is it the label or the activity that matters most?
> Why does it matter anyway?

I have no objections to using practically anything at all for making flies.
However, it has to work properly, and produce something effective. Nowadays
there is a steady flood of "new" materials, mostly synthetics onto the
fly-dressing market. These also tend to be quite expensive. Not many are
really as effective as is often claimed. Even minor variations of some
materials are sold under completely new and different names, which also
makes it difficult to obtain what one wants.

Especially when tying large flies for predators like pike, or for many
seafish, fairly large amounts of such material are also required. This makes
these flies very expensive indeed.

When one finds something useful and effective, then of course use it.

Lastly, flies and lures are really nothing more than artificial bait anyway.

TL
MC

[Robert]

Hello Hans

I am living close to Rotterdam. I am planning to visit Rothfusz in Delft
maybe next week-end. I have never been there before, always nice to visit a
new fishing store, find new materials and thinking about new flies to make
with them.

Thanks for the offer anyway and the information you provided.



Happy Tying

Robert





"Hans van der Stroom" > schreef in bericht
...
>
> "Robert" > schreef in bericht
> ...
> > Hi Hans,
> > Thank you for your response,
> > Maybe we can call it fly folding.
> > Was the Sili skin material easy to use? Do you like it?
> > How much did you pay for one bag?
> >
> > Tight lines!
> > Robert
>
> Might be folding, but the "flies" looked good. Materials made it possible
to
> come up with very interesting imitations for small baitfish, fry and
crabs.
> Have to experiment for further use. The sleeves are sold for Euro 8,90 by
> Rothfusz in Delft - which is where I live, so if you like I can send some
> over when you're far away.
> It's kinda sticky business working with Sili Skin, but you get used to it!
>
> Greetings,
> Hans
>
>

[John Lindsey]

Salmo said:
> If working with Silli Skin *was* suddenly decalared as
> lure making, would you still continue to experiment with it?
> ...lure-making one moment, fly tying the next?

Good question. My cork popping bug has 17 steps. Fourteen are woodworking,
sanding, painting, etc. and only three are what would be considered
classical "fly tying". I guess I could more properly be called a custom
lure maker instead of fly tyer.
>
> Is it the label or the activity that matters most?
> Why does it matter anyway?

It doesn't matter to me. I mind-meld with fly tiers of all species. About
the only place I see "lure makers": are at the big fishing shows. These
"lure makers" are bending wire and making buzz baits and talking about bait,
beer and bullets and I sure don't want to be confused as a member of that
group! LOL

Good luck!
John

[Salmo Bytes]

"John Lindsey" > wrote in message >...
> Salmo said:
> > If working with Silli Skin *was* suddenly decalared as
> > lure making, would you still continue to experiment with it?
> > ...lure-making one moment, fly tying the next?
>
>
> It doesn't matter to me. I mind-meld with fly tiers of all species. About
> the only place I see "lure makers": are at the big fishing shows. These
> "lure makers" are bending wire and making buzz baits and talking about bait,
> beer and bullets and I sure don't want to be confused as a member of that
> group! LOL

What were there: 40 posts in the recent Watusi Worms thread
and 20 or so in the sili skin thread, all revolving around
questions about "what is ...and what isn't...fly fishing...and
why does it matter anyway?"

John's post is the most telling, I think:
There is, in the end, nothing particularly troubling about
creating fish-bitables made with lure-like materials.
It is the tribal association with Bubba that causes distress.

Fly fishing *is* a thinking man's sport. To play our game
there is a long learning curve that includes tricky casting
techniques, entimology, complex fly tying procedures,
fish behavior and the reading of 4 or 5 centuries of literature.

To be Bubba all you need is to buy a spinning rod and to
remember the importance of keeping a beer in fron to you.

It isn't lure technology that causes such widespread disomfort,
it's Bubba. I get it now.

=================================
Now that I think about it,
maybe that's why I'm so comfortable with flyrod lures.

I'm a white collar "software engineer" now. But I did
spend almost 20 years in the buidling trades: talking
about elk hunting, football and eating *&^%$ at ten
o'clock coffee break. There's a lot about that life
I still miss.....pounding nails when it's 20 below zero
I don't miss....but there is a lot I do.

[Ken Fortenberry]

Salmo Bytes wrote:
> <bull**** snipped>
> It isn't lure technology that causes such widespread disomfort,
> it's Bubba. I get it now.

If you want to claim the moral high ground because everyone
here doesn't define a fly the same way you do, you're more
than welcome to it. But it smells a whole lot like reverse
snobbery to me.

--
Ken Fortenberry

[Mike Connor]

"Salmo Bytes" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
<SNIP>
I still occasionally fish with worms, or worse! Simply because I enjoy it.
As soon as you start imagining that fly fishing is somehow superior, or
anything else is inferior, then you have lost touch with reality.

It is only fishing with artificial bait.

Of course one should enjoy it, but pontificating about the ethics and morals
of it, is just silly.

TL
MC

[Stephen Welsh]

(Salmo Bytes) wrote in
om:

>
> What were there: 40 posts in the recent Watusi Worms thread
> and 20 or so in the sili skin thread, all revolving around
> questions about "what is ...and what isn't...fly fishing...and
> why does it matter anyway?"
>
> John's post is the most telling, I think:
> There is, in the end, nothing particularly troubling about
> creating fish-bitables made with lure-like materials.
> It is the tribal association with Bubba that causes distress.

No...its using a lure designed to promote an aggressive
response rather than a feeding response. Woolly buggers,
streamers can also fall into that category for some.

>
> Fly fishing *is* a thinking man's sport. To play our game
> there is a long learning curve that includes tricky casting
> techniques, entimology, complex fly tying procedures,
> fish behavior and the reading of 4 or 5 centuries of literature.
>

Not so. Fishing (of any type) can be as simple or as complex as
the angler wishes to make it. There is no need to learn entomology
in fresh or _sal****er_, or paw over "Masters of the Game" or
"The Boke of St Albans" to become a proficient fly flicker.
( Certainly lure making extends back to at least Cotton/Walton and
yet it is not required reading for a lure caster ?! Appalling! ;-)
Indeed, I don't think you necessarily have to be a good caster to
be a good angler (though it helps). Certainly tying is not a pre-
requisite.

> To be Bubba all you need is to buy a spinning rod and to
> remember the importance of keeping a beer in fron to you.

Hoons wield the fly too you know ... its a state of mind (hooning)
not the fishing equipment.

[rest snipped]


Steve

[Chas Wade]

"Mike Connor" > wrote:
>Of course one should enjoy it, but pontificating about the ethics and
>morals
>of it, is just silly.
>
Well said Mike, but those bait slinging Neanderthals won't understand.

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

[Hooked]

"Salmo Bytes" > wrote in message
om...
>
> (snip)
>
> To be Bubba all you need is to buy a spinning rod and to
> remember the importance of keeping a beer in fron to you.
>


Correction.

No self respecting "Bubba" is going to be caught dead with a pansy-assed
spinning rod. It's a baitcaster (and not one of them bitch-ass cry-baby
anti-backlash models either) or nothing. Except when you start talking
catfishing, then it's a trot line or grab 'em with your bare hands right
oughta their hidey holes along the bank of the river.

And it just ain't any ol' beer either. "Better be Pabst Blue Ribbon or you
ain't a goin' fishin' with me."

[Hooked]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> I still occasionally fish with worms, or worse! Simply because I enjoy
it.
> As soon as you start imagining that fly fishing is somehow superior, or
> anything else is inferior, then you have lost touch with reality.
>
> It is only fishing with artificial bait.
>
> Of course one should enjoy it, but pontificating about the ethics and
morals
> of it, is just silly.
>


I would have to agree with you Mike. The only reason I took up fly fishing
is because it's just another way to enjoy the sport of fishing.

[Salmo Bytes]

Ken Fortenberry > wrote in message >...
> Salmo Bytes wrote:
> > <bull**** snipped>
> > It isn't lure technology that causes such widespread disomfort,
> > it's Bubba. I get it now.
>
> If you want to claim the moral high ground because everyone
> here doesn't define a fly the same way you do, you're more
> than welcome to it. But it smells a whole lot like reverse
> snobbery to me.

Hey Ken:

You've been gunning for me ever since I jumped
all over you. (you told the Florida fishning guide
he was a slimey ****ing spammer and I ......well,
it's over now. He was a self promoter, but I thought
he might also have a lot to offer: like weekly Redfish
reports, sage sal****er advice, etc....and you sent
him permanently packing)

Anyway, let's call it even. I got my pound of flesh and so did you.

Reverse snobbery?
Maybe, but I'm not sure what that that means,
nor what you're trying to say.

Moral high ground? Me?
You gotta be kidding!

[Ken Fortenberry]

Salmo Bytes wrote:
> Ken Fortenberry wrote:
>
>>If you want to claim the moral high ground because everyone
>>here doesn't define a fly the same way you do, you're more
>>than welcome to it. But it smells a whole lot like reverse
>>snobbery to me.
>
> Hey Ken:
>
> You've been gunning for me ever since I jumped
> all over you. (you told the Florida fishning guide
> he was a slimey ****ing spammer and I ......well,
> it's over now. He was a self promoter, but I thought
> he might also have a lot to offer: like weekly Redfish
> reports, sage sal****er advice, etc....and you sent
> him permanently packing)

Don't take it personally, Sandy. Yes, I sent a SPAMmer permanently
packing, that's what I do, if I can. If you expected anything else
I suggest you change your expectations.

> Anyway, let's call it even. I got my pound of flesh and so did you.

In this world, just when you're trying to think of yourself as
memorable, there's always someone who forgets they've met you.
-- John Irving

--
Ken Fortenberry