Soft Hackle

[Big Dale]

At last Saturday's meeting of the Roadkill Roundtable, Fred was tying some size
14 yellow soft hackles consisting of yellow Pearsalls silk threat, one turn of
partridge, and a tungston bead. Seemed like a good thing to try to me. I know
he plans on attending the FFF Conclave in West Yellowstone in August and will
probably use it in that area and I have had good luck fishing Partridge and
Yellows during pale morning dun hatches in that area. Has anyone else tried
this?

Big Dale

[Larry L]

I've never fished it with the bead ... but it's a favorite of mine
unencumbered by one


"Big Dale" > wrote in message
...
> At last Saturday's meeting of the Roadkill Roundtable, Fred was tying some
size
> 14 yellow soft hackles consisting of yellow Pearsalls silk threat, one
turn of
> partridge, and a tungston bead. Seemed like a good thing to try to me. I
know
> he plans on attending the FFF Conclave in West Yellowstone in August and
will
> probably use it in that area and I have had good luck fishing Partridge
and
> Yellows during pale morning dun hatches in that area. Has anyone else
tried
> this?
>
> Big Dale

[Willi]

Big Dale wrote:

> At last Saturday's meeting of the Roadkill Roundtable, Fred was tying some size
> 14 yellow soft hackles consisting of yellow Pearsalls silk threat, one turn of
> partridge, and a tungston bead. Seemed like a good thing to try to me. I know
> he plans on attending the FFF Conclave in West Yellowstone in August and will
> probably use it in that area and I have had good luck fishing Partridge and
> Yellows during pale morning dun hatches in that area. Has anyone else tried
> this?
>
> Big Dale

For me, the addition of a beadhead to a soft hackle just seems out of
place. I did well on our PMD's with a soft hackle last Summer. Ours are
pretty tiny and light. I used cream color thread and tied it in 18's and
20's. I use SH's both pre hatch and as emergers during hatches for both
Mayfly and Caddis hatches.

Willi

[Stan Gula]

Willi wrote:
>
>
> Big Dale wrote:
>
>> At last Saturday's meeting of the Roadkill Roundtable, Fred was tying
>> some size
>> 14 yellow soft hackles consisting of yellow Pearsalls silk threat, one
>> turn of
>> partridge, and a tungston bead. Seemed like a good thing to try to
>> me. I know
>> he plans on attending the FFF Conclave in West Yellowstone in August
>> and will
>> probably use it in that area and I have had good luck fishing
>> Partridge and
>> Yellows during pale morning dun hatches in that area. Has anyone else
>> tried
>> this?
>>
>> Big Dale
>
>
> For me, the addition of a beadhead to a soft hackle just seems out of
> place. I did well on our PMD's with a soft hackle last Summer. Ours are
> pretty tiny and light. I used cream color thread and tied it in 18's and
> 20's. I use SH's both pre hatch and as emergers during hatches for both
> Mayfly and Caddis hatches.
>
> Willi
>
>

A post from Big Dale is usually not about small stream trout centric.
You need to consider this in terms of pond fishing for bluegills.

[Larry L]

"Willi" > wrote

>
> For me, the addition of a beadhead to a soft hackle just seems out of
> place.

I have the same reaction ... however I sometimes fish SHs with split shot
.... so I guess I'm hypocritical

The pattern Dale describes fishes well ( I use the Pearsall silk, mainly to
be old fashioned and romantic<g>, and gray feather, maybe a mallard
houlder ) fished as an emerger type fly, in or just below the film

The PMD nymphs ( my own observations and what I've read ) don't start to
show much yellow until they are at the film ... deeper, I'd bet that a PT
bodied or redbrown SH would fish better ... during a hatch Maybe after the
hatch period the yellow would work as a drowned dun, ?

Try a PT body, yellow fur ( I actually use a variety of things including
some very bright yellow sparkly crap I bought on a whim ) thorax and gray
feather ... near the film .... I've had it work well when more intricate
emerger ties didn't ... and you can crank them out at a very fast rate when
tying

[Willi]

Larry L wrote:

> "Willi" > wrote
>
>
>>For me, the addition of a beadhead to a soft hackle just seems out of
>>place.
>
>
> I have the same reaction ... however I sometimes fish SHs with split shot
> ... so I guess I'm hypocritical


Me too, and I also thin wire instead of thread for the body, in a
variety of colors to provide a bit of weight.


>
> The pattern Dale describes fishes well ( I use the Pearsall silk, mainly to
> be old fashioned and romantic<g>, and gray feather, maybe a mallard
> houlder ) fished as an emerger type fly, in or just below the film
>
> The PMD nymphs ( my own observations and what I've read ) don't start to
> show much yellow until they are at the film ... deeper, I'd bet that a PT
> bodied or redbrown SH would fish better ... during a hatch Maybe after the
> hatch period the yellow would work as a drowned dun, ?
>
> Try a PT body, yellow fur ( I actually use a variety of things including
> some very bright yellow sparkly crap I bought on a whim ) thorax and gray
> feather ... near the film .... I've had it work well when more intricate
> emerger ties didn't ... and you can crank them out at a very fast rate when
> tying
>
>

I think that the reason that a soft hackle will often out fish a more
complicated tie is that the fancier ties tend to end up over dressed in
comparison to the natural. I think this is especially true with hatches
of smaller Mayflies. S,all Mayflies are very wispy, fragile creatures. A
thread bodied SH provides a thin, sparse profile that matches the
natural much more closely in terms of size. The hackle provides some
motion without being over done. Nice subtle tie.



Willi

[Larry L]

"Willi" > wrote

<good stuff>

probably impossible to be too sparse with a small mayfly pattern .... I know
that, but I still have to fight myself to keep from taking one more turn of
hackle, or using 3 barbs of PT for the body when 2 will cover the hook, and
a little thinner .... wonder if that desire to put on more is a human trait
or a learned, cultural, American apple pie "bigger and more is better"
thing pounded into my subconscious by the ad agencies ?? <G>

[Willi]

Larry L wrote:
> "Willi" > wrote
>
> <good stuff>
>
> probably impossible to be too sparse with a small mayfly pattern .... I know
> that, but I still have to fight myself to keep from taking one more turn of
> hackle, or using 3 barbs of PT for the body when 2 will cover the hook, and
> a little thinner .... wonder if that desire to put on more is a human trait
> or a learned, cultural, American apple pie "bigger and more is better"
> thing pounded into my subconscious by the ad agencies ?? <G>
>
>


I wondered about the same thing as I have the same problem. I KNOW
sparser is better, but for some reason a little more looks better even
though I know it's not.

Willi

[Bill Mason]

"Willi" > wrote in message
...
> ... I used cream color thread and tied it in 18's and
> 20's. I use SH's both pre hatch and as emergers during hatches for both
> Mayfly and Caddis hatches.
>

Any chance that I could convince you to post a photo of the fly? I *know*
that sparse is often better, but I suffer from the "too much dressing"
syndrome, and I'd like to have a look at what you're tying. Thanks!

Cheers,
Bill

[Willi]

Bill Mason wrote:

> "Willi" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>... I used cream color thread and tied it in 18's and
>>20's. I use SH's both pre hatch and as emergers during hatches for both
>>Mayfly and Caddis hatches.
>>
>
>
> Any chance that I could convince you to post a photo of the fly? I *know*
> that sparse is often better, but I suffer from the "too much dressing"
> syndrome, and I'd like to have a look at what you're tying. Thanks!

I'll try and find one and scan it.

Willi

[Mike Connor]

> Bill Mason wrote:
>
> > Any chance that I could convince you to post a photo of the fly? I
*know*
> > that sparse is often better, but I suffer from the "too much dressing"
> > syndrome, and I'd like to have a look at what you're tying. Thanks!

This has always been a problem for fly-dressers. The temptation to put too
much hackle on a spider because it "looks better" is very widespread. For
most soft hackles, 6 to 12 strands of fibre are all that is required.
Putting more on makes them much less effective.

You can see some good examples here;
http://www.danica.com/flytier/steps/poe/poe.htm

http://www.danica.com/flytier/hverhaar/soft_hackle_gnat.htm

http://www.danica.com/flytier/hweilenmann/march_brown_spider.htm

http://www.danica.com/flytier/hweilenmann/partridge_orange_spider.htm

http://www.danica.com/flytier/bobpetti/p_yellow.htm

http://www.danica.com/flytier/tdidas/hare_hen_pheasant.htm

http://www.danica.com/flytier/bobpetti/s&p.htm

TL
MC

[Bill Mason]

"Willi" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'll try and find one and scan it.
>

Thanks Willi. I appreciate it.

Cheers,
Bill

[Bill Mason]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
> You can see some good examples here;
> http://www.danica.com/flytier/steps/poe/poe.htm etc.
>

Thanks for the links Mike. By comparison my soft hackles look more like
tumbleweeds, and I think it's time to tone them down a bit. At least my
supply of materials should last longer...

Cheers,
Bill

[Mike Connor]

"Bill Mason" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
>
> "Mike Connor" > wrote in message
> ...
> > You can see some good examples here;
> > http://www.danica.com/flytier/steps/poe/poe.htm etc.
> >
>
> Thanks for the links Mike. By comparison my soft hackles look more like
> tumbleweeds, and I think it's time to tone them down a bit. At least my
> supply of materials should last longer...
>
> Cheers,
> Bill
>
>

It can be very hard to do. The temptation to "gild the lily" is often
almost overwhelming. Some of the old fly-dressers used flies with only
three or four fibres as hackle, six was the maximum, ( this is what the real
insects have anyway!!), and they did very great execution.

Sometimes, our impressions simply do not gel with reality. It is very hard
to accept this.

In actual fact, some of my old mentors would have considered the flies at
the links I gave to be hopelessly overhackled!

TL
MC

[Hooked]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> You can see some good examples here;
>
> http://www.danica.com/flytier/bobpetti/s&p.htm
>


Mike,

I have a starling skin and would like to tie some of these SH you led me to
here. What size hooks should I consider using for a SH using the starling?

[Mike Connor]

"Hooked" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
>
> "Mike Connor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > You can see some good examples here;
> >
> > http://www.danica.com/flytier/bobpetti/s&p.htm
> >
>
>
> Mike,
>
> I have a starling skin and would like to tie some of these SH you led me
to
> here. What size hooks should I consider using for a SH using the starling?
>
>

I would very rarely go above a size 12 for spiders, and down to 18. Most
starling skins will give you this range, although the small feathers are at
a premium. The best feathers are the metallic feathers ( green and blue
sheen on a slate grey, nearly black hackle) from an adult male starling in
winter plumage. These feathers look almost exactly like small cockerel
feathers, and usually have a light fawn to brown tip. The tip is not used.
The feathers are soft and mobile of course.

Most English dressers use 14 and 16 hooks. The best hooks are short shank
straight eyed fine wire hooks. They look more aesthetically pleasing, and
fish better as well. I use "Drennan Carbon Specimen" hooks for all my
spiders. Of course you can use any hook you like.

Many skins on sale are from females, young birds, etc etc. These will
still work for many patterns, but are nowhere near as good. For info on
this, look here;

http://pw.osc.edu/~jill/hackles.html

There are hundreds of hackles on a good starling skin.

You can simply tie a collar or shoulder hackle as normal, but for best
results, palmer the hackle along the front third of the hook, and rib with
the same colour tying thread as the body. Keep the flies sparse. With brown
thread, this then equates to Stewart´s spider . You can find some info and
samples here;

http://people.cornell.edu/pages/emt3/

http://www.snipeandpurple.co.uk/page_5.htm

http://www.sexyloops.com/flytying/northcountrywets1.shtml

http://homepages.which.net/~james.smith10/

I don´t think any of my stuff on spiders is still on the web anywhere, but
if you need more info etc, then drop me a mail.

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

You can get the hooks here if you need them;
http://www.fishing-tackle-online.co.uk/z_Drennan_Carbon_Specimen_Hooks.html

They are also absolutely first class dry fly hooks.

Don´t pay more than 0.9 UK pounds for a packet of ten. There are some quite
ridiculous prices floating around for these hooks.

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

This by the way, is an example of a very poor skin, and is fairly typical of
a lot of stuff on sale;
http://www.rockymountainflies.com/images/97.jpg

It is quite obviously a young bird, with very few good or even usable
hackles. It is possible to dress flies with these feathers, and some few
patterns do indeed call for feathers from young birds, but mostly, such
flies will prove disappointing in use.

This is not to say that this company will be selling skins like that, it may
be the only picture of a starling skin they have.

However this may be, it is worthwhile trying to find a good skin. The
metallic iridescent hackles from an adult cock bird are much more effective.

TL
MC

[Hooked]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
> This by the way, is an example of a very poor skin, and is fairly typical
of
> a lot of stuff on sale;
> http://www.rockymountainflies.com/images/97.jpg
>
> It is quite obviously a young bird, with very few good or even usable
> hackles. It is possible to dress flies with these feathers, and some few
> patterns do indeed call for feathers from young birds, but mostly, such
> flies will prove disappointing in use.
>
> This is not to say that this company will be selling skins like that, it
may
> be the only picture of a starling skin they have.
>
> However this may be, it is worthwhile trying to find a good skin. The
> metallic iridescent hackles from an adult cock bird are much more
effective.


The starling skin I have has quite a few iridescent hackles on it. The only
thing is, when I pull one from the center of the back, and wrap it around my
hackle gauge, it shows about a size 16 hook. There are some larger hackles
farther up and to the sides of the skin that might be a size 12. Most, if
not all of these hackles are black with an iridescent green or purple with
tan colored tips. The hackles around the neck seem too small to use,
although they might size out to a 20-16. And all of them would be hard
pressed to make 2 wraps around the shank of a bare hook.

[Mike Connor]

"Hooked" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
>
> The starling skin I have has quite a few iridescent hackles on it. The
only
> thing is, when I pull one from the center of the back, and wrap it around
my
> hackle gauge, it shows about a size 16 hook. There are some larger hackles
> farther up and to the sides of the skin that might be a size 12. Most, if
> not all of these hackles are black with an iridescent green or purple with
> tan colored tips. The hackles around the neck seem too small to use,
> although they might size out to a 20-16. And all of them would be hard
> pressed to make 2 wraps around the shank of a bare hook.
>
>

The colours are right, but it sounds like you have a young bird skin, a
female, or one in which the bird was not in full plumage. Although two
turns is enough for collar hackles, you really need a couple more for the
Stewart style flies. There is not much you can do about it really. The
hackles from younger birds are also very fragile and can be frustrating to
tie with.

This is unfortunately a very common problem, as these birds are not selected
for their feathers, but are the result of relatively indiscriminate killing,
as they are major pests in many places. Normally, if you get a good skin,
you can use virtually every feather on the bird.

I can easily palmer a whole size fourteen hook from the throat feathers on
the skins I have.

Can´t be of much help to you there I´m afraid. If the feathers really are
too short, the only solution is to obtain another skin.

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

This is one reason many people give up on such spiders, which is a shame, as
they are quite deadly. Although there is plenty of information about cock
and hen hackles floating around, there is actually very little about some
other materials. Starling being a case in point.

Old time dressers selected their feathers and furs very carefully indeed for
spiders, and some materials were very highly prized. This is also why some
of the flies tied with them were so effective. Using anything else also
results in a inferior fly. There are no substitutes for many of these
hackles either. Using soft hen hackles is not the same at all. Apart from
which, it grieves me more than somewhat that people think soft hackles are
"generic" patterns, This is not the case, most were originally tied to
represent specific insects, and this they did, far better than some of the
"modern" stuff.

However this may be, it does not matter really, only to those who care, and
is none of my affair in any case.

TL
MC

[Willi]

Mike Connor wrote:

> This is one reason many people give up on such spiders, which is a shame, as
> they are quite deadly. Although there is plenty of information about cock
> and hen hackles floating around, there is actually very little about some
> other materials. Starling being a case in point.

In the States, the Hungarian Partridge is the standard for soft hackles.
They are very useful but aren't suited to tying smaller flies. However,
there are many species of grouse, partridge, and quail that are hunted
across the Country and they provide some great soft hackle, hackles.
These can provide a range of feathers sizes and a wide range of colors.


>
> Old time dressers selected their feathers and furs very carefully indeed for
> spiders, and some materials were very highly prized. This is also why some
> of the flies tied with them were so effective. Using anything else also
> results in a inferior fly. There are no substitutes for many of these
> hackles either. Using soft hen hackles is not the same at all.


I agree a soft hackle tied with a hen hackle is very different.


Apart from
> which, it grieves me more than somewhat that people think soft hackles are
> "generic" patterns, This is not the case, most were originally tied to
> represent specific insects, and this they did, far better than some of the
> "modern" stuff.



Although these ties may have originated to represent specific insects,
these insects were English insects which are going to differ from those
in the US. Here in the US, these original patterns function more as a
"generic" pattern. I think of soft hackles as a style of fly. They can
be tied and used effectively as "generic" attractor patterns and can
also be modified to be very effective for fishing specific hatches.
They're definitely an under used fly in the US.


Willi

[Mike McGuire]

Willi wrote:
>
>
> ...
> Although these ties may have originated to represent specific insects,
> these insects were English insects which are going to differ from those
> in the US. Here in the US, these original patterns function more as a
> "generic" pattern. I think of soft hackles as a style of fly. They can
> be tied and used effectively as "generic" attractor patterns and can
> also be modified to be very effective for fishing specific hatches.
> They're definitely an under used fly in the US.
>
>
> Willi
>
Willi

there has been serious work done here on imitative soft hackles. See
Sylvester Nemes' book "Soft Hackled Fly Imitations". Unfortunately I
don't know of anyone who has followed up much it, at least in print.

One comment I'll make on overdressed soft hackles is that they don't
tend to stay that way in use, they wear down, but when the fish are on
them, I have seen them keep working all the way down to that last fiber.

Mike

[Hooked]

"Mike Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> The colours are right, but it sounds like you have a young bird skin, a
> female, or one in which the bird was not in full plumage. Although two
> turns is enough for collar hackles, you really need a couple more for the
> Stewart style flies. There is not much you can do about it really. The
> hackles from younger birds are also very fragile and can be frustrating to
> tie with.
>
> This is unfortunately a very common problem, as these birds are not
selected
> for their feathers, but are the result of relatively indiscriminate
killing,
> as they are major pests in many places. Normally, if you get a good skin,
> you can use virtually every feather on the bird.
>
> I can easily palmer a whole size fourteen hook from the throat feathers
on
> the skins I have.
>
> Can´t be of much help to you there I´m afraid. If the feathers really are
> too short, the only solution is to obtain another skin.
>

I tried tying a SH with a starling hackle from the skin that I have, using
the smallest hook I have, a size 14.

These hackles are way too small for that. Maybe a size 20 or smaller. If I
get to the store any time soon, I'll pick up some size 20 hooks and try
tying one with these small hackles. (Like I'm even going to be able to see a
size 20 hook. :-) )

If anything, they may make halfway decent eyes for very small streamers.
That tan spot on the ends may just work. Almost, but not anywhere near
looking like, a jungle cock eye.

[Mike Connor]

"Hooked" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
<SNIP>
> I tried tying a SH with a starling hackle from the skin that I have, using
> the smallest hook I have, a size 14.
>
> These hackles are way too small for that. Maybe a size 20 or smaller. If I
> get to the store any time soon, I'll pick up some size 20 hooks and try
> tying one with these small hackles. (Like I'm even going to be able to see
a
> size 20 hook. :-) )
>
> If anything, they may make halfway decent eyes for very small streamers.
> That tan spot on the ends may just work. Almost, but not anywhere near
> looking like, a jungle cock eye.
>
>

Well, you definitely got a bad skin. The small soft hackles can also be
deadly, but I never go below an 18. I have tried smaller ones, years ago,
but I did not land many reasonable sized fish on them, I had problems even
getting tippet through the eyes, so I gave up using them. I don´t like using
very fine tippet anyway.

You can make a jungle cock substitute using starling hackles, They were
quite popular for a while. One merely paints the correct coloured dots on
the feather.

TL
MC