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Steve Dufour
October 19th, 2003, 09:43 PM
Jewsweek.com


Fishing for answers

If you thought sturgeon were kosher, think again. If you thought
figuring out if a fish is kosher was easy, think even harder. Victor
Wishna does the research and tells you all about four sets of scales
and this ichthyological dilemma.

by Victor Wishna October 11, 2003



Yom Kippur hadn't even started, and already we were talking about food
-- specifically, what we would eat as soon as we could eat again. The
discussion drifted to the topic of smoked fish, when someone raised a
red herring. Or, rather, a sturgeon.

"You know, I saw something on the Internet that says sturgeon isn't
kosher," said a friend who keeps kosher and likes sturgeon.

Around our pre-Kol-Nidre dinner table, this elicited gasps from other
friends who keep kosher and like sturgeon. A debate ensued, first,
over the reliability of information found on the Internet and, then,
over what makes sturgeon kosher, and, eventually, the kosher-ness of
other seafood, such as monkfish (which prompted someone to make the
somewhat obvious joke that if it were kosher it would be called
"rabbifish"). But the sturgeon issue went unsettled.

A bit of personal disclosure: I am not that big a fan of the sturgeon.
I love lox enough to know that Nova is better, and if I'm feeling bold
I will dabble in a bit of whitefish salad, particularly after a long
fast. That's about it. However, I have always respected the reverence
that smoked fish commands in Jewish gastronomic tradition, and since
coming to New York, I have learned the strict hierarchy. Lox, Nova,
whitefish, sable -- these are all very nice, but for the true Jewish
brunch enthusiast, sturgeon swims above them all.

"I consider this the finest, most elegant of smoked fish," says Mark
Russ Federman, owner of Russ & Daughters, the preeminent Lower East
Side appetizing shop that was founded in 1914 by his grandfather (and
his mother and her sisters). Unlike salmon or trout roe, only sturgeon
eggs earn the distinctive title of "caviar." In the Russian Empire,
some Jewish communities would welcome conquerors like Peter the Great
by presenting him with a live sturgeon. A few Torah scholars (and the
occasional humorist) have theorized that the "big fish" which
swallowed Jonah -- whose story is read on Yom Kippur afternoon -- was,
in fact, a sturgeon.

So how could it be treif? For my friends who keep kosher and like
sturgeon, I tried to find out.

I started at the source: When it comes to sanctioning seafood,
Leviticus is pretty straightforward. "These you may eat of all that
live in water," begins Chapter 11, Verse 9. "Anything in water ...
that has fins and scales -- these you may eat. But anything ... that
has no fins and scales -- they are an abomination for you and an
abomination for you they shall remain."

Fins and scales. That seems clear enough, until you consider (and
believe me, I hadn't) that there are different types of scales -- and
I don't mean C-major or B-flat. According to the Union of Orthodox
Congregations, "of the four types of scales -- clenoid, cycloid,
ganoid, and placoid -- only clenoid and cycloid scales are valid
according to the Torah." Sharks, for example, are sheathed in hard,
platelike placoids, while ganoids are the thick, shiny scales you will
find on a sturgeon.

It doesn't end there. There are 24 different species of sturgeon, from
the Caspian Sea to the Great Lakes to any number of rivers and
streams. Some breeds have "kosher scales" as young fish, but lose them
later in life. This is good enough for many Conservative kashrut
authorities. And according to an online press release of the New York
State Department of Agriculture's Division of Kosher Law Enforcement
(yes, such an agency exists -- the purpose is to prevent labeling
fraud), sturgeon is perfectly OK, if not OU.

For those who trust the Internet, there is also a Web site dedicated
to the ichthyological dilemma entitled "Sturgeon: A controversial
fish" (www.bluethread.com/kashrut/sturgeon.html), which presents both
sides and then invites visitors to join an online discussion on the
topic.

With neither Yahweh nor Yahoo offering conclusive answers, I consulted
some higher authorities.

"It's a tough question, a shayla," expounded Gary Greengrass, who is
not a rabbi, but the hereditary heir of "Sturgeon King" Barney
Greengrass and owner of the hugely popular, 95-year-old Upper West
Side smoked-fish shop that bears his grandfather's name. The week
leading up to Yom Kippur is Greengrass' busiest. In just a couple
days, the store sells "hundreds and hundreds" of pounds of sturgeon --
at $48 per pound -- and ships it across the country, from the Deep
South to the Pacific Northwest. "It's funny, I was just talking to a
customer," Greengrass told me, "and he said an Orthodox rabbi was
ruling that swordfish and sturgeon are kosher because -- under a
microscope -- they can see scales. Well, I don't think swordfish is
kosher. Sturgeon, I think sometimes it can be."

A few blocks away at Murray's Sturgeon, another Upper West Side
institution, proprietor Ira Goller agreed there is little agreement.
"This has been an argument for eons and eons, and it comes up all the
time," he said, noting that he has plenty of kosher customers who
won't order sturgeon, and many others who simply don't care. When
asked about the different types of scales, he shrugged. "There are
also different types of kosher," he replied. "Sturgeon is a debatable
item, and always will be."

Perhaps. In the end, the closest I got to a real answer was back at
Russ & Daughters. Federman's nephew, Joshua Russ Tupper ? who left his
job as a chemical engineer to become the fourth generation of Russes
to mind the family store -- offered a simple, sensory-based
dispensation. When religious authorities can't agree, it comes down to
a matter of taste. "Basically, it's delicious," he said, the
sturgeon's shiny coat of scales glistening in the display case. "For
some people, that's enough to make it kosher."

For my friends who are more particular, I can only say this: Don't
distress.

There are lots of other fish in the sea.

BTMO
October 20th, 2003, 05:32 AM
"Steve Dufour" <> wrote

> Fishing for answers

<snip>

> There are lots of other fish in the sea.

I am not Jewish, and my rules for food are "If I swallow this animal, will
it stay down" but that post was fascinating, Steve.

Thanks for posting it!

Cheers,

Brenton the much better informed.

Musashi
October 20th, 2003, 04:22 PM
"Steve Dufour" > wrote in message
om...
> Jewsweek.com
>
>
> Fishing for answers
>
> If you thought sturgeon were kosher, think again. If you thought
> figuring out if a fish is kosher was easy, think even harder. Victor
> Wishna does the research and tells you all about four sets of scales
> and this ichthyological dilemma.
>
> by Victor Wishna October 11, 2003
>
<snip>

I have heard that the kosher laws perataining to foods had their basis in
knowledge of
sanitary and hygenic practices. I do not know whether this is true or not.
But it does make sense to me
that eating pork for example a few thousand years ago could indeed be high
risk. The same goes
for fish in a world of no refridgeration. I had always thought that a fish
with "no scales or fins" really
meant a fish that was obviously no longer fresh enough for consumption and
should be avoided.
If all this is true, I would think that modern refridgeration and freezing
techniques and air transport
makes such laws unnecessary today, unless one wanted to observe them solely
for religous practice.

cindys
October 20th, 2003, 05:00 PM
"Musashi" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Steve Dufour" > wrote in message
>
> I have heard that the kosher laws perataining to foods had their basis in
> knowledge of
> sanitary and hygenic practices. I do not know whether this is true or not.

It's not true. The Jewish dietary laws are considered "chukim" - laws for
which there is no explanation. In the torah, God teaches us that He is holy
and He wants us to be holy (to bring us closer to Him) and to this end, we
are only allowed to eat certain animals.


> But it does make sense to me
> that eating pork for example a few thousand years ago could indeed be high
> risk. The same goes
> for fish in a world of no refridgeration. I had always thought that a fish
> with "no scales or fins" really
> meant a fish that was obviously no longer fresh enough for consumption and
> should be avoided.
> If all this is true, I would think that modern refridgeration and freezing
> techniques and air transport
> makes such laws unnecessary today, unless one wanted to observe them
solely
> for religous practice.
>
Which is exactly the point. If the purpose of the laws were for hygiene and
sanitation, they would become obsolete with modern refrigeration, freezing
techniques, etc. This is the excuse many Jews to rationalize their failure
to follow the laws. However, hygiene is not and never has been the purpose
of the Jewish dietary laws. Jews believe that by keeping the dietary laws
(along with all the other laws of the torah), we are able to get closer to
and emulate God.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

David H. Lipman
October 20th, 2003, 09:19 PM
Splitting hairs...

It's a fish -- it's kosher. Good enough for me !

Dave

"Steve Dufour" > wrote in message
om...
| Jewsweek.com
|
|
| Fishing for answers
|
| If you thought sturgeon were kosher, think again. If you thought
| figuring out if a fish is kosher was easy, think even harder. Victor
| Wishna does the research and tells you all about four sets of scales
| and this ichthyological dilemma.
|
| by Victor Wishna October 11, 2003
|
|
|
| Yom Kippur hadn't even started, and already we were talking about food
| -- specifically, what we would eat as soon as we could eat again. The
| discussion drifted to the topic of smoked fish, when someone raised a
| red herring. Or, rather, a sturgeon.
|
| "You know, I saw something on the Internet that says sturgeon isn't
| kosher," said a friend who keeps kosher and likes sturgeon.
|
| Around our pre-Kol-Nidre dinner table, this elicited gasps from other
| friends who keep kosher and like sturgeon. A debate ensued, first,
| over the reliability of information found on the Internet and, then,
| over what makes sturgeon kosher, and, eventually, the kosher-ness of
| other seafood, such as monkfish (which prompted someone to make the
| somewhat obvious joke that if it were kosher it would be called
| "rabbifish"). But the sturgeon issue went unsettled.
|
| A bit of personal disclosure: I am not that big a fan of the sturgeon.
| I love lox enough to know that Nova is better, and if I'm feeling bold
| I will dabble in a bit of whitefish salad, particularly after a long
| fast. That's about it. However, I have always respected the reverence
| that smoked fish commands in Jewish gastronomic tradition, and since
| coming to New York, I have learned the strict hierarchy. Lox, Nova,
| whitefish, sable -- these are all very nice, but for the true Jewish
| brunch enthusiast, sturgeon swims above them all.
|
| "I consider this the finest, most elegant of smoked fish," says Mark
| Russ Federman, owner of Russ & Daughters, the preeminent Lower East
| Side appetizing shop that was founded in 1914 by his grandfather (and
| his mother and her sisters). Unlike salmon or trout roe, only sturgeon
| eggs earn the distinctive title of "caviar." In the Russian Empire,
| some Jewish communities would welcome conquerors like Peter the Great
| by presenting him with a live sturgeon. A few Torah scholars (and the
| occasional humorist) have theorized that the "big fish" which
| swallowed Jonah -- whose story is read on Yom Kippur afternoon -- was,
| in fact, a sturgeon.
|
| So how could it be treif? For my friends who keep kosher and like
| sturgeon, I tried to find out.
|
| I started at the source: When it comes to sanctioning seafood,
| Leviticus is pretty straightforward. "These you may eat of all that
| live in water," begins Chapter 11, Verse 9. "Anything in water ...
| that has fins and scales -- these you may eat. But anything ... that
| has no fins and scales -- they are an abomination for you and an
| abomination for you they shall remain."
|
| Fins and scales. That seems clear enough, until you consider (and
| believe me, I hadn't) that there are different types of scales -- and
| I don't mean C-major or B-flat. According to the Union of Orthodox
| Congregations, "of the four types of scales -- clenoid, cycloid,
| ganoid, and placoid -- only clenoid and cycloid scales are valid
| according to the Torah." Sharks, for example, are sheathed in hard,
| platelike placoids, while ganoids are the thick, shiny scales you will
| find on a sturgeon.
|
| It doesn't end there. There are 24 different species of sturgeon, from
| the Caspian Sea to the Great Lakes to any number of rivers and
| streams. Some breeds have "kosher scales" as young fish, but lose them
| later in life. This is good enough for many Conservative kashrut
| authorities. And according to an online press release of the New York
| State Department of Agriculture's Division of Kosher Law Enforcement
| (yes, such an agency exists -- the purpose is to prevent labeling
| fraud), sturgeon is perfectly OK, if not OU.
|
| For those who trust the Internet, there is also a Web site dedicated
| to the ichthyological dilemma entitled "Sturgeon: A controversial
| fish" (www.bluethread.com/kashrut/sturgeon.html), which presents both
| sides and then invites visitors to join an online discussion on the
| topic.
|
| With neither Yahweh nor Yahoo offering conclusive answers, I consulted
| some higher authorities.
|
| "It's a tough question, a shayla," expounded Gary Greengrass, who is
| not a rabbi, but the hereditary heir of "Sturgeon King" Barney
| Greengrass and owner of the hugely popular, 95-year-old Upper West
| Side smoked-fish shop that bears his grandfather's name. The week
| leading up to Yom Kippur is Greengrass' busiest. In just a couple
| days, the store sells "hundreds and hundreds" of pounds of sturgeon --
| at $48 per pound -- and ships it across the country, from the Deep
| South to the Pacific Northwest. "It's funny, I was just talking to a
| customer," Greengrass told me, "and he said an Orthodox rabbi was
| ruling that swordfish and sturgeon are kosher because -- under a
| microscope -- they can see scales. Well, I don't think swordfish is
| kosher. Sturgeon, I think sometimes it can be."
|
| A few blocks away at Murray's Sturgeon, another Upper West Side
| institution, proprietor Ira Goller agreed there is little agreement.
| "This has been an argument for eons and eons, and it comes up all the
| time," he said, noting that he has plenty of kosher customers who
| won't order sturgeon, and many others who simply don't care. When
| asked about the different types of scales, he shrugged. "There are
| also different types of kosher," he replied. "Sturgeon is a debatable
| item, and always will be."
|
| Perhaps. In the end, the closest I got to a real answer was back at
| Russ & Daughters. Federman's nephew, Joshua Russ Tupper ? who left his
| job as a chemical engineer to become the fourth generation of Russes
| to mind the family store -- offered a simple, sensory-based
| dispensation. When religious authorities can't agree, it comes down to
| a matter of taste. "Basically, it's delicious," he said, the
| sturgeon's shiny coat of scales glistening in the display case. "For
| some people, that's enough to make it kosher."
|
| For my friends who are more particular, I can only say this: Don't
| distress.
|
| There are lots of other fish in the sea.

Musashi
October 20th, 2003, 10:02 PM
"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Musashi" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> > "Steve Dufour" > wrote in message
> >
> > I have heard that the kosher laws perataining to foods had their basis
in
> > knowledge of
> > sanitary and hygenic practices. I do not know whether this is true or
not.
>
> It's not true. The Jewish dietary laws are considered "chukim" - laws for
> which there is no explanation. In the torah, God teaches us that He is
holy
> and He wants us to be holy (to bring us closer to Him) and to this end, we
> are only allowed to eat certain animals.
>
>
> > But it does make sense to me
> > that eating pork for example a few thousand years ago could indeed be
high
> > risk. The same goes
> > for fish in a world of no refridgeration. I had always thought that a
fish
> > with "no scales or fins" really
> > meant a fish that was obviously no longer fresh enough for consumption
and
> > should be avoided.
> > If all this is true, I would think that modern refridgeration and
freezing
> > techniques and air transport
> > makes such laws unnecessary today, unless one wanted to observe them
> solely
> > for religous practice.
> >
> Which is exactly the point. If the purpose of the laws were for hygiene
and
> sanitation, they would become obsolete with modern refrigeration, freezing
> techniques, etc. This is the excuse many Jews to rationalize their failure
> to follow the laws. However, hygiene is not and never has been the purpose
> of the Jewish dietary laws. Jews believe that by keeping the dietary laws
> (along with all the other laws of the torah), we are able to get closer to
> and emulate God.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
Thank you for that information. May I ask then from the religious point of
view
how do you deal with fish species that have scales too small to notice?
Rainbow trout, Mackeral come to mind as fish that clearly have small scales
but many people
don't bother scaling them.

Binyamin Dissen
October 20th, 2003, 10:28 PM
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:02:18 GMT "Musashi" > wrote:

[ snipped ]

:>Thank you for that information. May I ask then from the religious point of
:>view
:>how do you deal with fish species that have scales too small to notice?
:>Rainbow trout, Mackeral come to mind as fish that clearly have small scales
:>but many people
:>don't bother scaling them.

There is no requirement to scale a fish.

The presence of "scale and fin" is a technical requirement.

The Oral Law describes/defines what scales are.

As far as I recall, they have to be able to be easily removed to qualify. And
they have to be visible.

--
Binyamin Dissen >
http://www.dissensoftware.com

jack mehoff
October 22nd, 2003, 12:40 PM
It depends, what body part is being operated on ?