Tow Vehicle Features Needs and Wants

[Chuck Coger]

I am going to take some of my free time and really rate a few of the tow
vehicles available on the market today. I am going down to the dealer and
see if they will let me test drive a few with my boat on the back.

Before I get too far though I wanted some input from the group on exactly
what you look for in a tow vehicle. Once I get a good list I will work on
getting them rated in order of importance via a poll.

So what are they in these catagories?

#Necessary Features

#Wanted Features

#Dream Features (future developments or recomendations)

Once I get this done we can post it on the ROFB faq page as well.


---
Chuck Coger
http://www.fishin-pro.com

[John Kerr]

I want all the guages to read the same whether I have the boat behind me
or not. I want it to pull my boat up a gravel launch ramp wihout "sand
blasting" my boat with gravel. When I have to "panic" stop for any
reason, I don't want to have to stop and think, "I have a boat behind
me" first. I want my preventitive maintenance to be within 90% of what
it would be without the "tow" time. But first and foremost....I want
people to stop and say...."Nice Truck"! <big grin>

Oh....I drive a Ford...and love it! <g>

JK

[Jerry \NervisRek\ Barton]

If you decide on a Ford,and need and "X" plan (Friends & Neighbors)
discount number, let me know and I'll get you one. Saves you about 4%
less than employees "A" plan. Always ask a sales person what the
discount will do for you.
--
Jerry Barton
www.jerrys-world.com

"Chuck Coger" > wrote in message
. com...
> I am going to take some of my free time and really rate a few of the
tow
> vehicles available on the market today. I am going down to the
dealer and
> see if they will let me test drive a few with my boat on the back.
>
> Before I get too far though I wanted some input from the group on
exactly
> what you look for in a tow vehicle. Once I get a good list I will
work on
> getting them rated in order of importance via a poll.
>
> So what are they in these catagories?
>
> #Necessary Features
>
> #Wanted Features
>
> #Dream Features (future developments or recomendations)
>
> Once I get this done we can post it on the ROFB faq page as well.
>
>
> ---
> Chuck Coger
> http://www.fishin-pro.com
>
>

[Charles B. Summers]

Not... "Hey, that thing gotta hemi?"

"Sweet..."

"John Kerr" > wrote in message
...
> But first and foremost....I want
> people to stop and say...."Nice Truck"! <big grin>
>
> Oh....I drive a Ford...and love it! <g>
>
> JK
>

I'm a Ford man myself! Gotta love em.

[Eric Ryder]

"Chuck Coger" > wrote in message
. com...
> I am going to take some of my free time and really rate a few of the tow
> vehicles available on the market today. I am going down to the dealer and
> see if they will let me test drive a few with my boat on the back.
>
> Before I get too far though I wanted some input from the group on exactly
> what you look for in a tow vehicle. Once I get a good list I will work on
> getting them rated in order of importance via a poll.
>
> So what are they in these catagories?
>
> #Necessary Features
>
> #Wanted Features
>
> #Dream Features (future developments or recomendations)
>
> Once I get this done we can post it on the ROFB faq page as well.
>
>
> ---
> Chuck Coger
> http://www.fishin-pro.com
>
>

I got most of these when I ordered the present one to yank my 18' glass
boat, none are optional:

Big V-8 (next one's diesel)
auto trans w/ cooler
5000# rated hitch - I have the swing/extend tube for it, handy item for
gravel drives.
long wheelbase - this extended cab, shortbox Chebby is way safer than the
old Bronco ever was
4WD, fairly aggressive LT tires
heavy duty mudflaps
accessory rear lights
I recently fished the wiring for inertial brake controller and for trailer
brakes - next time I'll get it built in.

[Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers]

"Chuck Coger" > wrote in message
. com...
> I am going to take some of my free time and really rate a few of the tow
> vehicles available on the market today. I am going down to the dealer and
> see if they will let me test drive a few with my boat on the back.
>
> Before I get too far though I wanted some input from the group on exactly
> what you look for in a tow vehicle. Once I get a good list I will work on
> getting them rated in order of importance via a poll.
>
> So what are they in these catagories?
>
> #Necessary Features

***Adequate power and torgue (300 hp, 500 lb/ft torque), Auto transmission with cooler, ability to
seat 4 adults comfortably, decent fuel economy, 4 wheel drive, some cargo carrying capacity, cruise
control, decent stereo, power mirrors, a good brushguard and great looks.
>
> #Wanted Features

***All of the above plus, 4 wheel steering, seat covers that are water/stain proof, more cab room,
remote starting, rear window defroster, heated side mirrors.
>
> #Dream Features (future developments or recomendations)

***All I want is a Chevy Suburban with a Duramax Diesel/Allison transmission, well then as long as
we're dreaming, lets add a HyperTech Power Chip, Exhaust Braking, 4" performance exhaust, K&N Air
Flow system, 3" lift kit, 36" Off-Road tires, a "Deer Proof" brush guard with integrated winch, then
camoflague the whole thing!!! :) I'm not asking for much, am I?
--
Steve
OutdoorFrontiers
http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
http://www.herefishyfishy.com

>
> Once I get this done we can post it on the ROFB faq page as well.
>
>
> ---
> Chuck Coger
> http://www.fishin-pro.com
>
>

[Charles B. Summers]

What?? No Flow Master Exhaust or winch? LOL


"Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers" > wrote in message
...
>
> > #Dream Features (future developments or recomendations)
>
> ***All I want is a Chevy Suburban with a Duramax Diesel/Allison
transmission, well then as long as
> we're dreaming, lets add a HyperTech Power Chip, Exhaust Braking, 4"
performance exhaust, K&N Air
> Flow system, 3" lift kit, 36" Off-Road tires, a "Deer Proof" brush guard
with integrated winch, then
> camoflague the whole thing!!! :) I'm not asking for much, am I?
> --
> Steve
> OutdoorFrontiers
> http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
> G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
> http://www.herefishyfishy.com
>
> >
> > Once I get this done we can post it on the ROFB faq page as well.
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Chuck Coger
> > http://www.fishin-pro.com
> >
> >
>
>

[Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers]

"Charles B. Summers" (Comcast)> wrote in message
...
> What?? No Flow Master Exhaust or winch? LOL

Charles! Read through the Dream Features again.......
--
Steve
OutdoorFrontiers
http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
http://www.herefishyfishy.com

>
>
> "Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > #Dream Features (future developments or recomendations)
> >
> > ***All I want is a Chevy Suburban with a Duramax Diesel/Allison
> transmission, well then as long as
> > we're dreaming, lets add a HyperTech Power Chip, Exhaust Braking, 4"
> performance exhaust, K&N Air
> > Flow system, 3" lift kit, 36" Off-Road tires, a "Deer Proof" brush guard
> with integrated winch, then
> > camoflague the whole thing!!! :) I'm not asking for much, am I?
> > --
> > Steve
> > OutdoorFrontiers
> > http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
> > G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
> > http://www.herefishyfishy.com
> >
> > >
> > > Once I get this done we can post it on the ROFB faq page as well.
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Chuck Coger
> > > http://www.fishin-pro.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Charles B. Summers]

Opps....


"Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Charles B. Summers" (Comcast)> wrote in
message
> ...
> > What?? No Flow Master Exhaust or winch? LOL
>
> Charles! Read through the Dream Features again.......
> --
> Steve
> OutdoorFrontiers
> http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
> G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
> http://www.herefishyfishy.com
>
> >
> >
> > "Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > #Dream Features (future developments or recomendations)
> > >
> > > ***All I want is a Chevy Suburban with a Duramax Diesel/Allison
> > transmission, well then as long as
> > > we're dreaming, lets add a HyperTech Power Chip, Exhaust Braking, 4"
> > performance exhaust, K&N Air
> > > Flow system, 3" lift kit, 36" Off-Road tires, a "Deer Proof" brush
guard
> > with integrated winch, then
> > > camoflague the whole thing!!! :) I'm not asking for much, am I?
> > > --
> > > Steve
> > > OutdoorFrontiers
> > > http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
> > > G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
> > > http://www.herefishyfishy.com
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Once I get this done we can post it on the ROFB faq page as well.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Chuck Coger
> > > > http://www.fishin-pro.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Rich Conley]

Just kinda curious as to why you guys all suggest automatic transmissions.

(Our current tow vehicle is a Ford Econoline 350 Diesel Van. Its a stick.)

"Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers" wrote:

> "Chuck Coger" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > I am going to take some of my free time and really rate a few of the tow
> > vehicles available on the market today. I am going down to the dealer and
> > see if they will let me test drive a few with my boat on the back.
> >
> > Before I get too far though I wanted some input from the group on exactly
> > what you look for in a tow vehicle. Once I get a good list I will work on
> > getting them rated in order of importance via a poll.
> >
> > So what are they in these catagories?
> >
> > #Necessary Features
>
> ***Adequate power and torgue (300 hp, 500 lb/ft torque), Auto transmission with cooler, ability to
> seat 4 adults comfortably, decent fuel economy, 4 wheel drive, some cargo carrying capacity, cruise
> control, decent stereo, power mirrors, a good brushguard and great looks.
> >
> > #Wanted Features
>
> ***All of the above plus, 4 wheel steering, seat covers that are water/stain proof, more cab room,
> remote starting, rear window defroster, heated side mirrors.
> >
> > #Dream Features (future developments or recomendations)
>
> ***All I want is a Chevy Suburban with a Duramax Diesel/Allison transmission, well then as long as
> we're dreaming, lets add a HyperTech Power Chip, Exhaust Braking, 4" performance exhaust, K&N Air
> Flow system, 3" lift kit, 36" Off-Road tires, a "Deer Proof" brush guard with integrated winch, then
> camoflague the whole thing!!! :) I'm not asking for much, am I?
> --
> Steve
> OutdoorFrontiers
> http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
> G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
> http://www.herefishyfishy.com
>
> >
> > Once I get this done we can post it on the ROFB faq page as well.
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Chuck Coger
> > http://www.fishin-pro.com
> >
> >

[Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers]

"Rich Conley" > wrote in message
.. .
> Just kinda curious as to why you guys all suggest automatic transmissions.
>
> (Our current tow vehicle is a Ford Econoline 350 Diesel Van. Its a stick.)

It used to be that automatic transmissions couldn't handle the added stress of towing and that
standard transmissions were recommended for that task. Now, transmission technology has improved
and they are able to tow without difficulty.

I think the major reason that "everyone" recommends automatic transmissions is they're "easy". No
more drifting backwards on steep landings, no more smell of burnt clutch, engine revving and the
whole works lurching up the ramp. People have gotten used to driving automatic transmission
equipped vehicles and have forgotten how to drive a standard transmission (for the most part).

I've had both types of transmission and successfully towed boats. It is considerably easier to
apply the power to the drive wheels with an automatic, just press on the gas pedal harder. And I've
gotten lazier in my old age as well. I like simply socking it in drive and taking off... :)
--
Steve
OutdoorFrontiers
http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
http://www.herefishyfishy.com

[Rich Conley]

well..that makes sense....

(from the kid who has 200K miles on his CLUTCH.)

RichZ wrote:

> Rich wrote:
> > Just kinda curious as to why you guys all suggest automatic transmissions.
> >
> The vehicle manufacturers all recommend autos for towing. I guess they are
> afraid that no-one knows how to drive a standard anymore? I've had one tow
> vehicle with an automatic in the past 35 years. That was stolen after 2
> years, and I couldn't wait to replace it with a standard.
>
> RichZ©
> www.richz.com/fishing

[Andrew Kidd]

"Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rich Conley" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Just kinda curious as to why you guys all suggest automatic
transmissions.
> >
> > (Our current tow vehicle is a Ford Econoline 350 Diesel Van. Its a
stick.)
>
> It used to be that automatic transmissions couldn't handle the added
stress of towing and that
> standard transmissions were recommended for that task. Now, transmission
technology has improved
> and they are able to tow without difficulty.
>
> I think the major reason that "everyone" recommends automatic
transmissions is they're "easy". No
> more drifting backwards on steep landings, no more smell of burnt clutch,
engine revving and the
> whole works lurching up the ramp. People have gotten used to driving
automatic transmission
> equipped vehicles and have forgotten how to drive a standard transmission
(for the most part).
>
> I've had both types of transmission and successfully towed boats. It is
considerably easier to
> apply the power to the drive wheels with an automatic, just press on the
gas pedal harder. And I've
> gotten lazier in my old age as well. I like simply socking it in drive
and taking off... :)


Right with you on that one Steve... I've used both, and have definitely
gotten spoiled by the automatic. That uphill take-off from the algae cover
ramps is all the convincing I need. I haven't forgotten how to drive one,
but I sure as hell don't want another one. IMO, I can't imagine a reason
why someone would still want a manual transmission, except maybe being
stubborn and stuck in their past ways, or they don't want the spouse driving
their truck. As you've mentioned, current technology has made the need for
them practically obsolete, not to mention making them a tougher sale when
you're ready to move into a new vehicle...
--
Andrew Kidd
http://www.amiasoft.com/ - Software for the rest of us!
http://www.rofb.net/ - ROFB Newsgroup Home

[Charles B. Summers]

I bought a Ranger a few years back with a standard transmission, just so my
wife wouldn't want to drive it! You must have been through the same, since
you figured that out.

I can't keep her out of the Ranger I have now... with an automatic.


"Andrew Kidd" > wrote in message
news:wwbvb.259042$Tr4.806683@attbi_s03...

<snip>
> IMO, I can't imagine a reason
> why someone would still want a manual transmission, except maybe being
> stubborn and stuck in their past ways, or they don't want the spouse
driving
> their truck.
> --
> Andrew Kidd
> http://www.amiasoft.com/ - Software for the rest of us!
> http://www.rofb.net/ - ROFB Newsgroup Home
>
>

[Andrew Kidd]

Nahhh, haven't been there...but I might have thought about it before... :-)
--
Andrew Kidd
http://www.amiasoft.com/ - Software for the rest of us!
http://www.rofb.net/ - ROFB Newsgroup Home


"Charles B. Summers" (Comcast)> wrote in
message ...
> I bought a Ranger a few years back with a standard transmission, just so
my
> wife wouldn't want to drive it! You must have been through the same, since
> you figured that out.
>
> I can't keep her out of the Ranger I have now... with an automatic.
>
>
> "Andrew Kidd" > wrote in message
> news:wwbvb.259042$Tr4.806683@attbi_s03...
>
> <snip>
> > IMO, I can't imagine a reason
> > why someone would still want a manual transmission, except maybe being
> > stubborn and stuck in their past ways, or they don't want the spouse
> driving
> > their truck.
> > --
> > Andrew Kidd
> > http://www.amiasoft.com/ - Software for the rest of us!
> > http://www.rofb.net/ - ROFB Newsgroup Home
> >
> >
>
>

[RichZ]

My wife has never driven a vehicle with an automatic, other than the GMC I
had that was stolen.

I live in very hilly country, and have no desire to drive an auto. Shifting
and using the clutch has been 2nd nature to me for 40 some years. and I've
never had to put a clutch in any of the vehicles I've towed with.

RichZ©
www.richz.com/fishing

[Andrew Kidd]

"RichZ" > wrote in message
...
> My wife has never driven a vehicle with an automatic, other than the GMC I
> had that was stolen.
>
> I live in very hilly country, and have no desire to drive an auto.
Shifting
> and using the clutch has been 2nd nature to me for 40 some years. and I've
> never had to put a clutch in any of the vehicles I've towed with.


So is it safe to say we know which side of my suggested scenarios you sit
on?

>>IMO, I can't imagine a reason why someone would still want a manual
>> transmission, except maybe being stubborn and stuck in their past ways,
>> or they don't want the spouse driving their truck.

:-) Just having a little fun, Rich...needed a release after the screwed up
week I've had so far...and there's still Friday to contend with! Man I hope
that the weather holds until this weekend...
--
Andrew Kidd
http://www.amiasoft.com/ - Software for the rest of us!
http://www.rofb.net/ - ROFB Newsgroup Home

[RichZ]

Andrew wrote:
> So is it safe to say we know which side of my suggested scenarios you sit
> on?
>
Absolutely. Why change something that ain't broken?

RichZ©
www.richz.com/fishing

[RichZ]

And tradin-n value doesn't enter my equation, because I never trade a
vehicle in. I tend to drive them till they are pretty much dead. My wife's
no driving the '92 blazer I got when my '89 Jimmy was stolen. She sold the
'85 (280K miles) for 300 bucks. Maybe she'd have gotten $350 if it was an
automatic?<G>


RichZ©
www.richz.com/fishing

[Nikolay]

That's your European root, Mr.Z! ;-) :-)

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, RichZ wrote:

> My wife has never driven a vehicle with an automatic, other than the GMC =
I
> had that was stolen.
>
> I live in very hilly country, and have no desire to drive an auto. Shifti=
ng
> and using the clutch has been 2nd nature to me for 40 some years. and I'v=
e
> never had to put a clutch in any of the vehicles I've towed with.
>
> RichZ=A9
> www.richz.com/fishing
>
>

[AJH]

Rich, guys like you are the reason car salesman are starving..<g> I am
driving a 1993 Dodge Dakota with 166,000 plus miles..





I fish therefore I lie

[Huck Palmatier]

....with the arthritis I've got in my left knee, I'll never have another
standard transmission. City driving used to kill me. said Huck

[Calif Bill]

In 1968 I bought my first tow vehicle with an automatic. Loved not having
to clutch for 20 miles of stop and go traffic. Towed a race car and leaving
Laguna Seca raceway after the race, meant very tired leg by the time we got
through the Hwy101 bottlenecks. Tow with an automatic 99 Expedition and
looking at new Duramax of Ford 6.0L trucks. Will still go with the
automatic. Have owned stickshifts in the intervening years, but the tow
vehicles have remained automatics.
Bill

"RichZ" > wrote in message
...
> My wife has never driven a vehicle with an automatic, other than the GMC I
> had that was stolen.
>
> I live in very hilly country, and have no desire to drive an auto.
Shifting
> and using the clutch has been 2nd nature to me for 40 some years. and I've
> never had to put a clutch in any of the vehicles I've towed with.
>
> RichZ©
> www.richz.com/fishing
>

[AJH]

Stick shifts: one foot on the gas and brake, the other on the clutch and
a hand on the emergency brake, welcome to 2003..





I fish therefore I lie

[Rich Conley]

Andrew Kidd wrote:

> "Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Rich Conley" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > > Just kinda curious as to why you guys all suggest automatic
> transmissions.
> > >
> > > (Our current tow vehicle is a Ford Econoline 350 Diesel Van. Its a
> stick.)
> >
> > It used to be that automatic transmissions couldn't handle the added
> stress of towing and that
> > standard transmissions were recommended for that task. Now, transmission
> technology has improved
> > and they are able to tow without difficulty.
> >
> > I think the major reason that "everyone" recommends automatic
> transmissions is they're "easy". No
> > more drifting backwards on steep landings, no more smell of burnt clutch,
> engine revving and the
> > whole works lurching up the ramp. People have gotten used to driving
> automatic transmission
> > equipped vehicles and have forgotten how to drive a standard transmission
> (for the most part).
> >
> > I've had both types of transmission and successfully towed boats. It is
> considerably easier to
> > apply the power to the drive wheels with an automatic, just press on the
> gas pedal harder. And I've
> > gotten lazier in my old age as well. I like simply socking it in drive
> and taking off... :)
>
> Right with you on that one Steve... I've used both, and have definitely
> gotten spoiled by the automatic. That uphill take-off from the algae cover
> ramps is all the convincing I need. I haven't forgotten how to drive one,
> but I sure as hell don't want another one. IMO, I can't imagine a reason
> why someone would still want a manual transmission, except maybe being
> stubborn and stuck in their past ways, or they don't want the spouse driving
> their truck. As you've mentioned, current technology has made the need for
> them practically obsolete, not to mention making them a tougher sale when
> you're ready to move into a new vehicle...
> --
> Andrew Kidd
> http://www.amiasoft.com/ - Software for the rest of us!
> http://www.rofb.net/ - ROFB Newsgroup Home

One of the major reasons I drive a stick is this: My brother and I both have the
same car. His is an auto, mine is a stick. I get 30 mpg, he gets 22. Mine is
faster than his, and I can hold a turn better because I can downshift.

Rich

[Rich Conley]

haha. I hear you there....
Got a 93 plymouth duster with 220K,
88 Econoline 350 with almost 300K.

AJH wrote:

> Rich, guys like you are the reason car salesman are starving..<g> I am
> driving a 1993 Dodge Dakota with 166,000 plus miles..
>
> I fish therefore I lie

[Andrew Kidd]

"Rich Conley" > wrote in message
.. .
> One of the major reasons I drive a stick is this: My brother and I both
have the
> same car. His is an auto, mine is a stick. I get 30 mpg, he gets 22. Mine
is
> faster than his, and I can hold a turn better because I can downshift.
>
> Rich
>

Hi Rich,
I'm curious. We're talking tow vehicles here...how fast do you take a
turn while towing your boat? :-)

Seriously though, do you and your brother have the same driving habits?
That could account for a lot of the difference. You downshift into a stop,
he just brakes into it. When do each of you let up on the gas? How fast do
you take off out of the hole at a stop light, etc etc etc...
I won't deny that a stick might get better gas mileage then an auto, but
I would need hard data to prove it's that big of a gap without some
differences in the way you both drive...

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/gasmileage/

Above link shows some interesting gas mileage comparisons. It surprising
the spread of mileages over the range of vehicle, engine and transmission
types. Especially when you look at the 4wd suv's and standard pick-ups.

Some more interesting stuff can be read at:

http://money.cnn.com/2002/12/17/pf/autos/shift_wars/

....with an equally interesting opposing viewpoint...

--
Andrew Kidd
http://www.amiasoft.com/ - Software for the rest of us!
http://www.rofb.net/ - ROFB Newsgroup Home

[Rich Conley]

Yeah..got a little off topic with the normal cars, but even when I drive his
car, I get worse than in mine....

What I want to see more of, and I think will be the best of both worlds when
they get em working correctly, is those 1-speed cone driven transmissions...just
seems like a really good idea to me... you can keep the engine in its power band
100% of the time.

Thats what I want. A big slider on the console, that I can slide as I
accelerate, and change the gear ratio.

Andrew Kidd wrote:

> "Rich Conley" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > One of the major reasons I drive a stick is this: My brother and I both
> have the
> > same car. His is an auto, mine is a stick. I get 30 mpg, he gets 22. Mine
> is
> > faster than his, and I can hold a turn better because I can downshift.
> >
> > Rich
> >
>
> Hi Rich,
> I'm curious. We're talking tow vehicles here...how fast do you take a
> turn while towing your boat? :-)
>
> Seriously though, do you and your brother have the same driving habits?
> That could account for a lot of the difference. You downshift into a stop,
> he just brakes into it. When do each of you let up on the gas? How fast do
> you take off out of the hole at a stop light, etc etc etc...
> I won't deny that a stick might get better gas mileage then an auto, but
> I would need hard data to prove it's that big of a gap without some
> differences in the way you both drive...
>
> http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/gasmileage/
>
> Above link shows some interesting gas mileage comparisons. It surprising
> the spread of mileages over the range of vehicle, engine and transmission
> types. Especially when you look at the 4wd suv's and standard pick-ups.
>
> Some more interesting stuff can be read at:
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2002/12/17/pf/autos/shift_wars/
>
> ...with an equally interesting opposing viewpoint...
>
> --
> Andrew Kidd
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