No fish
 

Crusades, inquisition, "the troubles"...

Religion has enough heros of their own.
Frank Reid

No fish
 

Bob Blean wrote:
Todd wrote:
I did not mean to imply that only Christian religious beliefs
were valid. I do think it is a good thing to bring your
moral values to the arena of ideas, where ever you get them
from.

I am glad to hear you say that. Unfortunately some mean exactly that --
which is why I got so disturbed by the religious questioning of
political candidates in that last election. It appeared to me that a
candidate had little chance to get elected unless the candidate was
willing to profess a strong belief in a Christian God. That is not the
way things should be.

I found all the manure that got flung about over that one governor
being a Mormon to be a uncalled for as well. He actually followed
the moral code he professed. I liked that.

-T

No fish
 

On Sep 16, 3:35*pm, Todd wrote:
Bob Blean wrote:
Todd wrote:
* I did not mean to imply that only Christian religious beliefs
* were valid. *I do think it is a good thing to bring your
* moral values to the arena of ideas, where ever you get them
* from.

I am glad to hear you say that. *Unfortunately some mean exactly that --
which is why I got so disturbed by the religious questioning of
political candidates in that last election. *It appeared to me that a
candidate had little chance to get elected unless the candidate was
willing to profess a strong belief in a Christian God. *That is not the
way things should be.

I found all the manure that got flung about over that one governor
being a Mormon to be a uncalled for as well. *He actually followed
the moral code he professed.

Ted Bundy, the Duvaliers, Bill Clinton, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin,
Ronald Reagan, Mao Tsedong, Jeffrey Dahmer, Caligula, Pol Pot, Richard
Daley, Ferdinand Marcos, Benito Mussolini, George Bush and Idi Amin
all followed the moral codes they professed.

I liked that.

Ooh....ooh.....surprise!

Imbecile

Pig.

g.

No fish
 

On Sep 16, 12:20*pm, Todd wrote:
Conan The Librarian wrote:
On Sep 15, 2:17 pm, Todd wrote:

I keep thinking about your letter. *All of the things you
list above can be traced back to someone's religious values.
Typically the ten commandments. *Atheist's values float, so
they do not apply here.

* *Nonsense. *Atheists' and agnostics' values are as central to their
lives as any of your supposedly god-given commandments.

* *In fact, those of us who don't believe in your god adhere to our
values not out of fear of some eternal damnation or fear of a holy
smiting, but because we understand that ideals such a "do unto
others", "don't steal", "don't kill", etc. are essential to living a
decent life and helping ensure that our society is one worth living
in.

* * * Chuck Vance

Hi Chuck,

Man left to his own devices will eventually find the correct path.
I do believe that was Robes Pierre. Look what it
has brought on us: Hitler and his merry band of socialists ~25
million murders, the Soviets socialists ~ 70 million murders,
Chinese socialists ~50 million, and on and on. *Osama can only
dream of such numbers.

Please "share" my values and not theirs (I don't mean to imply
you do not).

Pig.

Liar.

Filth.

g.

No fish
 

On Sep 16, 12:20*pm, Todd wrote:

Man left to his own devices will eventually find the correct path.
I do believe that was Robes Pierre. Look what it
has brought on us: Hitler and his merry band of socialists ~25

First of all, Hitler was not a socialist, he was a fascist. I know
right-wingers (especially your false idol, Rush) are trying to re-
write history and have us believe that Hitler was somehow a left-
winger, but it doesn't fly. They try to tell us he was socialist
because the party's name had National Socialist in it, but that's no
more the case than the old East Germany being democratic because it
had the word Democrat in its party name, or China being a republic
because it has the name "People's Republic".

I don't expect this will do any good, but I'd suggest you read up
on the Social Democrats in Germany in the 1920-30s, and compare and
contrast them to Hitler's National Socialist movement. The first
people Hitler went after were socialists, communists and other left-
wing types.

million murders, the Soviets socialists ~ 70 million murders,
Chinese socialists ~50 million, and on and on. *Osama can only
dream of such numbers.

Er, I hate to break it to you, but Osama's whole campaign is based
on religion. As were the Crusades and the Inquisition.

Please "share" my values and not theirs (I don't mean to imply
you do not).

My values say that it is wrong to murder, whether it's in the name
of your god or your government or your country.


Chuck Vance

No fish
 

Conan The Librarian wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:20 pm, Todd wrote:

Man left to his own devices will eventually find the correct path.
I do believe that was Robes Pierre. Look what it
has brought on us: Hitler and his merry band of socialists ~25

First of all, Hitler was not a socialist, he was a fascist. I know
right-wingers (especially your false idol, Rush) are trying to re-
write history and have us believe that Hitler was somehow a left-
winger, but it doesn't fly. They try to tell us he was socialist
because the party's name had National Socialist in it, but that's no
more the case than the old East Germany being democratic because it
had the word Democrat in its party name, or China being a republic
because it has the name "People's Republic".

Hi Chuck,

Watch the name calling. You can not convince me by insulting me.
It is also ill mannered.

The NAZI's were both socialist and fascist. Here is a good reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...rkers%27_Party

The part about them taking over charity and handling it by
the state is the same thing the Soviets did.

I don't expect this will do any good, but I'd suggest you read up
on the Social Democrats in Germany in the 1920-30s, and compare and
contrast them to Hitler's National Socialist movement. The first
people Hitler went after were socialists, communists and other left-
wing types.

You are correct, Hitler ate his competition. This is what happens
when you get to pick and choose your morality. The Soviets and
the NAZI's got along fine, dividing up Poland and all, until
Hitler attacked them. Britain had a hell of a time
getting support for the war out of their socialists
until that attack.

To argue over what flavor of socialist the NAZI were is to
miss my point. When you get to pick and choose what your
morality is, man's inhumanity to man can be a thing to
behold.

Add up all the number up you can find of all the stupid
things you can think of on all the world's religions
and you will not even scratch the surface of what
any one these above mentioned socialists perpetrated.

What morality did the Soviets use that allowed them
to murder 40 million Ukrainians with a forced famine?
The Soviets picked and choose their morality. Hint:
good = serves the cause (revolutionary); bad = oppose
the cause (counter revolutionary)

To get folk to following along with them to perpetrate
such inhumanity required the Soviets wipe out those
with built in moral restrains. (Oooops! Missed a few!)

Can you imagine standing guard over wheat field and
shotting anyone who tried find any leftover kernels
of wheat to feed themselves? Again, picking
and choosing one morality.

Trust me on this, all the stupid things religious
people have done over the years can not match this.

million murders, the Soviets socialists ~ 70 million murders,
Chinese socialists ~50 million, and on and on. Osama can only
dream of such numbers.

Er, I hate to break it to you, but Osama's whole campaign is based
on religion. As were the Crusades and the Inquisition.

You really do not see a difference Osama and the rest of
religious people? You would not step foot in a charity
hospital because of the Crusades? Do you discount any
and all of the good works Muslins have done because
of Osama?

Look for the good around you that religious people
have done. Hell, I am speaking to you respectfully
and you call me names.

Please "share" my values and not theirs (I don't mean to imply
you do not).

My values say that it is wrong to murder, whether it's in the name
of your god or your government or your country.

And you share these values with me why? Good that you do. Where did
you get them from? Somewhere along the line, you got them from
a religious value.

In a free society, that the majority of us (believes of one
stripe or another), come to the table with pre-built
moral restraints, allows us all to be governed with far
less imposed restraint by government. Makes us a freer
country. (I do believe the atheist Thomas Paine also made
this point, but I can not find the reference.)

And, dude, be respectful of others beliefs and opinions.
You are a fisherman, which by definition, means you
are suppose to be a "nice guy".

-T

No fish
 

On Sep 17, 12:22*pm, Todd wrote:

Conan The Librarian wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:20 pm, Todd wrote:

Man left to his own devices will eventually find the correct path.
I do believe that was Robes Pierre. Look what it
has brought on us: Hitler and his merry band of socialists ~25

* *First of all, Hitler was not a socialist, he was a fascist. *I know
right-wingers (especially your false idol, Rush) are trying to re-
write history and have us believe that Hitler was somehow a left-
winger, but it doesn't fly. *They try to tell us he was socialist
because the party's name had National Socialist in it, but that's no
more the case than the old East Germany being democratic because it
had the word Democrat in its party name, or China being a republic
because it has the name "People's Republic".

Hi Chuck,

Watch the name calling. *You can not convince me by insulting me.
It is also ill mannered.

Where did I call you names?

The NAZI's were both socialist and fascist. * Here is a good reference:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...rkers%27_Party

Actually, you might want to read your own source. They
specifically say they drew elements from the right, and opposed both
the Communists and Socialists.

The part about them taking over charity and handling it by
the state is the same thing the Soviets did.

Sure there are some elements that are similar, mostly relating to
control. But the ideology is not a socialistic one.

* *I don't expect this will do any good, but I'd suggest you read up
on the Social Democrats in Germany in the 1920-30s, and compare and
contrast them to Hitler's National Socialist movement. *The first
people Hitler went after were socialists, communists and other left-
wing types.

You are correct, Hitler ate his competition. *This is what happens
when you get to pick and choose your morality. *The Soviets and
the NAZI's got along fine, dividing up Poland and all, until
Hitler attacked them. *Britain had a hell of a time
getting support for the war out of their socialists
until that attack.

To argue over what flavor of socialist the NAZI were is to
miss my point. *When you get to pick and choose what your
morality is, man's inhumanity to man can be a thing to
behold.

Add up all the number up you can find of all the stupid
things you can think of on all the world's religions
and you will not even scratch the surface of what
any one these above mentioned socialists perpetrated.

What morality did the Soviets use that allowed them
to murder 40 million Ukrainians with a forced famine?
The Soviets picked and choose their morality. *Hint:
good = serves the cause (revolutionary); bad = oppose
the cause (counter revolutionary)

To get folk to following along with them to perpetrate
such inhumanity required the Soviets wipe out those
with built in moral restrains. *(Oooops! Missed a few!)

Can you imagine standing guard over wheat field and
shotting anyone who tried find any leftover kernels
of wheat to feed themselves? *Again, picking
and choosing one morality.

Actually, all the things you describe very closely approach the
blind devotion and zeal shown by many religious people. Mindless
devotion to any cause is dangerous.

* *Er, I hate to break it to you, but Osama's whole campaign is based
on religion. *As were the Crusades and the Inquisition.

You really do not see a difference Osama and the rest of
religious people? *You would not step foot in a charity
hospital because of the Crusades? *Do you discount any
and all of the good works Muslins have done because
of Osama?

Look for the good around you that religious people
have done. *Hell, I am speaking to you respectfully
and you call me names.

Please "share" my values and not theirs (I don't mean to imply
you do not).

* *My values say that it is wrong to murder, whether it's in the name
of your god or your government or your country.

And you share these values with me why? *Good that you do. Where did
you get them from? *Somewhere along the line, you got them from
a religious value.

It's mighty presumptuous of you to assume so. Both of my parents
were agnostic. They didn't teach me to believe in a god, but they
taught me to value and respect others as I do myself.

In a free society, that the majority of us (believes of one
stripe or another), come to the table with pre-built
moral restraints, allows us all to be governed with far
less imposed restraint by government. *Makes us a freer
country. *(I do believe the atheist Thomas Paine also made
this point, but I can not find the reference.)

And, dude, be respectful of others beliefs and opinions.
You are a fisherman, which by definition, means you
are suppose to be a "nice guy".

-T

No fish
 

Conan The Librarian wrote:
On Sep 17, 12:22 pm, Todd wrote:

Watch the name calling. You can not convince me by insulting me.
It is also ill mannered.
Where did I call you names?

"I know right-wingers (especially your false idol, Rush)"
Mild name calling, but still name calling. If you meant
that affectionately, then I do apologize. My liberal
friend calls me a "right wing nut". It means he
loves me. I tell his dog to pee on him. It means I
also love him too.

Actually, all the things you describe very closely approach the
blind devotion and zeal shown by many religious people. Mindless
devotion to any cause is dangerous.

Depends on what their devotion is to. Mindless devotion to being
nice to other people: don't see the problem. Some people
react rather badly to others being nice to them.

It's mighty presumptuous of you to assume so. Both of my parents
were agnostic. They didn't teach me to believe in a god, but they
taught me to value and respect others as I do myself.

Keep going back. They got it from somewhere. For instance:
"they taught me to value and respect others as I do myself"
would be traced back to Jesus' teaching: whatsoever you would
have others do unto you, do unto them. Other religions
have similar teaching. So keep digging.

-T

No fish
 

In message
,
Giles writes
On Sep 16, 3:35*pm, Todd wrote:
Bob Blean wrote:
Todd wrote:
* I did not mean to imply that only Christian religious beliefs
* were valid. *I do think it is a good thing to bring your
* moral values to the arena of ideas, where ever you get them
* from.

I am glad to hear you say that. *Unfortunately some mean exactly that --
which is why I got so disturbed by the religious questioning of
political candidates in that last election. *It appeared to me that a
candidate had little chance to get elected unless the candidate was
willing to profess a strong belief in a Christian God. *That is not the
way things should be.

I found all the manure that got flung about over that one governor
being a Mormon to be a uncalled for as well. *He actually followed
the moral code he professed.

Ted Bundy, the Duvaliers, Bill Clinton, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin,
Ronald Reagan, Mao Tsedong, Jeffrey Dahmer, Caligula, Pol Pot, Richard
Daley, Ferdinand Marcos, Benito Mussolini, George Bush and Idi Amin
all followed the moral codes they professed.

I liked that.

Ooh....ooh.....surprise!

Imbecile

Pig.

g.

While you guys are still chewing the fat, I went fishing yesterday -
only the second time this year. It was to a small put and take fishery
fishing for stocked Rainbow trout.

Fishing with a stiff NE wind blowing from behind me, I managed to bag 4
Rainbows the largest was just over 4 lbs and the total bag weighed 15
lbs.

They were caught on a small (by our standards Montana nymph.)

Sorry to interrupt - carry on arguing.
--
Bill Grey

No fish
 

On 17-Sep-2009, Bill Grey wrote:

While you guys are still chewing the fat, I went fishing yesterday -
only the second time this year. It was to a small put and take fishery
fishing for stocked Rainbow trout.

Fishing with a stiff NE wind blowing from behind me, I managed to bag 4
Rainbows the largest was just over 4 lbs and the total bag weighed 15
lbs.

They were caught on a small (by our standards Montana nymph.)

Sorry to interrupt - carry on arguing.

Great post and sounds like a good time fishing - Far better than arguing

Thanks
Fred