Catch and Release Hurts our Quality of Life
 

On Mar 8, 9:38 am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
[snip]
So, the bass will remain in the Rapid, thanks to some damn fool that
was thinking of his stomach and trophy wall.

Socratic debate...

1) The bass eat a lot of baby brook trout in the Rapid River.
2) Yes, Plato. Plus they are aggressive and compete for the brook
trout for food. It is hard for the brook trout.
3) That is true Socrates. It makes sense that we should let people
fish and harvest the bass, but we must protect the brook trout.
4) Plato, you are right. But, if the bass did NOT remain in the Rapid,
if somehow they were gone tomorrow, could we harvest some brook trout
from the Rapid, assuming that the surplus would be returned, the
competition removed and that some harvest would be beneficial to the
yield of the river and the quality and average size and health of the
fish?
5) ?

Your pal,

TBone

Catch and Release Hurts our Quality of Life
 

Looks fine to me, Tim.

Good luck.

Dave

Catch and Release Hurts our Quality of Life
 

On Mar 8, 10:17 am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 09:08:25 -0800 (PST), Halfordian Golfer

wrote:
Thanks for the discussion. The Rapid River seems like a wonderful and
beautiful place. I'd love to catch a 3# brookie there with you Dave,
and eat a damned bass with you afterwards. I suspect we agree on more
than meets the eye.

Call me. I'm in the book. First three days at Lakewood Camps on me.

Dave

Thank you, that would be awesome. Perhaps the fall...

TBone

Catch and Release Hurts our Quality of Life
 

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 09:19:13 -0800 (PST), Halfordian Golfer
wrote:

Socratic debate...

1) The bass eat a lot of baby brook trout in the Rapid River.
2) Yes, Plato. Plus they are aggressive and compete for the brook
trout for food. It is hard for the brook trout.
3) That is true Socrates. It makes sense that we should let people
fish and harvest the bass, but we must protect the brook trout.
4) Plato, you are right. But, if the bass did NOT remain in the Rapid,
if somehow they were gone tomorrow, could we harvest some brook trout
from the Rapid, assuming that the surplus would be returned, the
competition removed and that some harvest would be beneficial to the
yield of the river and the quality and average size and health of the
fish?
5) ?

Hey, Soco and Plato, this is Sisyphus. When the bass became apparent
in the Rapid, fishermen started to kill them *regardless* their size.
Most of the ones I have seen are very small, but I am sure there are
bigger ones in the river. There is signage all over the river to kill
the bass when you catch one. Kill, kill, kill the bass. However,
this is only a "feel good" regulation. No matter how many you kill,
they will continue to survive. They are a rugged fish, not like the
brook trout.

You know, the original Sisyphus was condemned to pushing a rock up a
mountain only to have it roll all the way down where he would push it
back up the mountain only to have it roll down............

This modern day Sisyphus is condemned to forever explaining to Soco
and Plata that catch and release works when applied to a certain
species like a native brook trout whose existence is threatened. Woe
is poor Sisyphus.

Dave aka Pirate aka Bottom Dweller aka Asshole aka Fat Fool aka Jerk
nka Sisyphus

d;o)

Catch and Release Hurts our Quality of Life
 

On Mar 8, 10:13 am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
[snip]
Have you not read what I have been writing, Tim? I *lived* the
transition from catch and kill (one brookie/day/person) People would
flock to the river on week-ends hoping to catch a 15 inch brook trout
to eat.
....
THAT is what almost killed the river. Will you not listen? People
were taking the breeding stock, the big healthy fish. They left
nothing but little trout. If the bass had come up river 15 years ago,
they would have decimated an unhealthy river. PURE c&r brought the
river back. It is less crowded now and the mortality rate is as close
to zero as it will ever be.

Understood.

What do you believe would have happened if the regulations were
changed such that the minimum size limit was 22" and you could only
keep one?

What is generally attributed to the demise of the Rapid RIver brook
trout is the smallmouth bass introduction 20 yrs ago in Umbagogg
lake.
No it is not. The Rapid River is now *living* with smallmouth bass.
While they are a problem, an unsolvable problem I might add, they are
not big enough to take a 5 pound brook trout or salmon. I have yet to
catch a smallmouth in the river, but I landed many brook trout and
salmon in the 3 to 5 pound range. Two pounders are common enough not
to even mention.
I've already addressed this, Tim. The brook trout are *thriving* in
the Rapid as I type inspite of the smallmouths. They are thriving
because the c&KILL regs were changed to pure c&RELEASE. Let me
emphasis that for you. PURE CATCH AND RELEASE HAS BROUGHT THE RIVER
BACK.
(snip)

The brook trout are thriving under the current regs which protect them
but allow harvesting bass. You can not subtract that from the
equation, can you? I mean, it's the way it is.

If bass were protected and brook trout were not...what would the
predictable outcome be?

What of these landlocked salmon? They sound delicious!

Best,

Halfordian Golfer

Catch and Release Hurts our Quality of Life
 

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 09:25:27 -0800 (PST), Halfordian Golfer
wrote:

Thank you, that would be awesome. Perhaps the fall...

Season ends on the Rapid the last day of September. Other rivers are
open until the end of October.

Dave

Catch and Release Hurts our Quality of Life
 

On Mar 7, 6:35 pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
[snip]

Ken, you said,

A few dead fish do not matter one whit to me

While I do not believe mortality alone is a litmus of ethicity, this
stark and wanton disregard for killing wildlife solely for your
pleasure shocked even me.

It spanks of no conscience.

A few years ago fishing on the flat tops, a small fish of about 5
inches took my fly and I accidentally pulled him into a side-pocket
where he escaped under a crack. The side pocket would dry up in a day
or two, it was more like a rain basin. I took off my vest and set down
my rod and tried in vain to free him back to the main river.
Incidental and unavoidable? Certainly. Doesn't mean I'll ever, ever
not respect that this was a wild animal that I killed for no good
reason.

Your pal,

Halfordian Golfer

Catch and Release Hurts our Quality of Life
 

On Mar 8, 10:41 am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 09:25:27 -0800 (PST), Halfordian Golfer

wrote:
Thank you, that would be awesome. Perhaps the fall...

Season ends on the Rapid the last day of September. Other rivers are
open until the end of October.

Dave

Makes sense, protects the spawn. When is the best? I'd imagine
september? Right now?

TBone

Catch and Release Hurts our Quality of Life
 

Hi Willi,

Emailed you privately, that is very sad. Are there any holding waters
or pools that the fish survived in?

Regarding your statement about the tedium of this subject, I'll offer
no apology. It is on topic and very interesting, anything but tedium,
for me. I learn something new or have an insight every single time.
That said, I would humbly suggest that it is I that suffers the worst
of it, but I try to persist diligently, politely and respectfully as
possible. Given the nature of this discussion, I have to. I learned
that a long, long time ago. On anything that is even remotey off
topic, I try very hard to remember the "obligatory AF" to keep it
informative.

Yet, I have to say that, more than anything, this discussion degrades
the closer we get to the truth and it is incredibly frustrating for
me. Please consider, I would like to start a reasonable Socratic
Debate on a subject. To do that we need to agree on a fundamental
truth, assert it and than try to answer follow-on questions.


The problem is that nothing NEW is introduced into the discussion. The
problem between your position and mine is that we only share some of
these so called "fundamental truths".

PS There are a series of newer C&R studies done in YNP that show MUCH
less mortality from C&R fishing than the older studies due to, I
believe, improved methodology where the study itself didn't contribute
to the mortality. I'm not sure if these are on the internet.



And, while these discussions might be tedium, I can tell you that they
have, at times, been incredibly rewarding. Having the opportunity to
get a chance to fish with you is one of the more valuable ones.

At least for me, a C&R thread had nothing to do with this.

Willi

Catch and Release Hurts our Quality of Life
 

And, while these discussions might be tedium, I can tell you that they
have, at times, been incredibly rewarding. Having the opportunity to
get a chance to fish with you is one of the more valuable ones.
At least for me, a C&R thread had nothing to do with this.
Willi

Not so sure.

"Eventually all things merge in to one and a river runs through it..."

Your pal,

Halfordian Golfer