Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

Tom Littleton wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
Supply-side
economics is, was, and always will be wrongheaded. Anyone who can't see
that by now is just plain blinded by ideology and ignorance.

snip
... All of
this lack of regulation, lack of oversight and unbridled greed can rightly
be seen as the true legacy of Ronald Reagan.

Exactly right. When Reaganomics reached its pinnacle the economy went
predictably into the crapper. There's a reason a prominent Republican
dubbed it "voodoo economics".

Obama has his hands full, that's for sure.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

On Sat, 07 Feb 2009 19:23:32 -0600, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Obama has his hands full, that's for sure.

Right, and Pelosi and Reid are getting their pockets full.

Dave

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
Tom, the housing market is down because there is no money. And the
housing **** hit the fan in 2006.

no, you are wrong. The housing market is returning to sanity, after a
grossly inflated bubble.
Well, hell, Tom, our wealth is *always* on paper, even if we have
invested in nothing but gold or silver. Now, if you had that gold or
silver in your position, that would be different. Like I said, my
wealth reached its zenith in 2006. My house has lost value (thanks,
Barney), the stock market hasn't been very good, and people started
losing their houses a year after they were given unbelievable loans by
Freddie and Fannie.
once again, your lack of insight into reality is astounding.

Your net worth is only relevant if you intend on selling everything off.
Otherwise, it is just an exercise in paper calculations. The old adage of
selling when you can get the best price comes in here. Also, you assume a
certain wealth during a bubble and you make a serious mistake.
Let's go back, if you will to that couple you cited, driving a BMW and going
to a food pantry now. They are example #1 of the personal irresponsibility
that is significantly to blame in this mess. They THOUGHT they could afford
a beemer, but if they couldn't afford ****ing food after a financial
setback(whether job loss, health issue, whatever), they really couldn't.
But, I'll bet they thought they deserved one. Now, they are taking food from
the truly destitute and deserve to be slapped. Why the hell don't they sell
the car and buy their own damned food?
I do not advocate doing nothing. I say solve
the problem from whence it came - MONEY. If a new mortgage with the
same rate but over a longer period was given to the folks that Freddie
and Fannie snagged, this wouldn't have happened. Give those folks the
money to save their homes.

as I tried to point out, this clearly wouldn't work. Many lived over their
heads, and can't be saved that way. Their houses are not worth the mortgage
amount or anything close to it.

Their taxes will go up. That is a given, regardless what you say.
They went up during Clinton and they laid off people. They HIRED
people five or so years ago.
as I asked elsewhere, where do you find a tax increase? I only see a 250
Billion dollar lowering of taxation, in the current proposal. Oh, I get it,
since the GOP has you scared into thinking that ALL Democrats will raise
taxes, you are stupid enough to believe it?
But, making MONEY available to small business entrepreneurs, to other
businesses that have laid off people, to allow the working class to
keep more of the money they earn so that they can *spend* it, or save
it will help us recover.

no, it won't. NO businessperson worth **** is going to expand during a
severe economic slowdown. Maybe you know folks stupid enough to hire workers
they don't need, but I suspect that isn't a norm.
Again, horse caca. The problem started when no oversight by Barney
and Dodd on Freddie and Fannie.

what a load of crap. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. All
you can do is blame two guys who came into power after the horse had left
the freaking barn.


They were making loans that the
people couldn't pay back,

Oh, and others weren't?? Greed started us down this path, and Barney Frank
and Chris Dodd(while hardly a great help in the process) clearly weren't the
ones who sold a boatload of bum paper to unsuspecting investors to avoid the
normal responsible lending practices. And, Fannie and Freddie got in on that
game late, they hardly started the practice. None of that **** would have
happened with any real oversight. But, your fine friends in the GOP made
good and certain that almost all banking oversight and investment regulation
was null and void.
Tom

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

On Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:04:30 -0500, Dave LaCourse
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2009 19:23:32 -0600, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Obama has his hands full, that's for sure.

Right, and Pelosi and Reid are getting their pockets full.

Dave


To mix a metaphor and end this thread for me,
youse guys have drank the koolaid, hook, line and sinker. Hey that
should be an OBROFF.

Davey

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

"Tom Littleton" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
m...
I have seen no leadership from the messiah. He is supporting the bill as
it came out of the House. very little stimulation and gobs of cost.

actually, exactly wrong, Bill. Obama is quietly supporting the version
that is being re-written in the Senate, and urging the House to go along
without re-tinkering with it.
And, based on the economics experts, the balance of the Senate compromise
fit the mold of what is needed. The only questions seemingly remaining
a 1) will this approach work, or be timely enough and 2) is it large
enough? Many feel, given the current rate of job loss and business losses,
a package of double this size is needed.
Tom


Obama has changed his support to the new bill. Just going along with the
flow. Where is some leadership. A package double this may be needed. But
not with the hurryup writing of this bill. This bill is a clusterf&&k in
regards to anybody really understanding the bill and what we really need.
Resodding the Mall is not something needed for a stimulus, as well as a lot
of other pet projects inserted. The last $850 Billion Bailout was written
with the same haste and look how it turned out. And that was a Democrat
controlled Congress also, so do not try to blame Bush for the failure. Put
the blame where it belongs. Congress! BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE!

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
Tom Littleton wrote:
... As for any stimulus package, you are going to be able to point to
various projects as pork, but certainly, the final bill looks like it
will attempt to address housing, try to stimulate job growth and also
keep a lot of businesses afloat. Whether it will work, or be enough, or
in time, is a guess at best.

It's a given in our political system that all spending bills
come out of the House. The stimulus package was put together
by House Dems. Now it moves to the Senate where they will
translate it from the crayon to an actual typewritten package.
If Obama is half the leader I believe him to be the final
version will make sense.

I have seen no leadership from the messiah. ...

You should have your eyes checked.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Good eyes.

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

Calif Bill wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:
I have seen no leadership from the messiah. ...
You should have your eyes checked.

Good eyes.

But you still can't see.

Try removing those ideological blinkers and the ignorance tinted
sunglasses.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

"Tom Littleton" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
m...
How about government cutting the excess spending?

what, exactly, do you consider 'excess' spending?? Hell,
the vast majority of the budget is for defense spending and established
programs such as Medicare, Social Security
and the like.



Lots of the liquidity problems are the Government(s) excess borrowing.
Takes lots of loan money for private people and business out of
circulation.

um, not really, but I am not going to waste 3 pages explaining it to you.
Look it up.
Finally, do you(and others) understand: the principle behind an 'economic
stimulus' is SPENDING by the government. Now, you can choose to disagree
with the principle or theory behind that, but that is what it is.
As for jeff's concerns, I share them, but realize that we are facing a
situation far more dire than jacking up a federal deficit. Layoff levels
of 1/2 million souls per month will lead to a commercial collapse(and thus
commercial real estate/commercial loan collapse) that, if nothing else,
will make folks forget about the housing loan mess pretty quick, as there
is far more dubious paper out there on commercial real estate than there
was on housing, I suspect. If something doesn't stabilize both employment
levels and public confidence, and very quickly, an ugly downturn could
easily become something much worse, IMO.
Tom


A stimulus bill should not cause more problems for us and our children and
grandchildren than not doing as much. Temporary government jobs will just
postpone the recession, layoffs until the trillion bucks is spent. We had a
bailout bill passed by a Democrat controlled Congress with Republican votes
also, and look what that has done. Stimulated $18 billion in bonus money
and not stimulus or bailout. I do not want the same thing with the next ill
conceived bill. Rushed out of Congress with a few people in the corner
writing it. Look at the "Stimulus" spending. Most is not a stimulus, but
future pork. Give a forgiveness of taxes up to $3000 credit on a mortgage,
and most in trouble paying for the house will be able to keep the house.
Buy up 50% of the bad mortgages and will stop a lot of the real estate
problems and would cost a hell of a lot less than $800 billion. And we as a
people need to feel some pain. We as a country have been living on borrowed
money for too long. Just like the dot.com boom, greed has ruled. Houses
are no where worth what they have sold for in the last 10 years. My
daughters condo in a beach area of SoCal bought for $400k 7 years ago, was
selling for $900k after 6 years. Lots of fraud in the mortgage world. Not
all in the banks side. Cases of people buying a house for $200k, selling it
to a friend of family member a year later for $400k, and a 3rd F or F buying
it for $700k a year later and then defaulting on the loan. Nice profit of
$500k split 3 ways in 2 years. Good income, eh? Everybody wants the
"Stimulus" bill to erase all pain, give back all investment losses and pay
for their house and gas bill. Sounds like this is what you want. What are
you going to tell your grandchildren when they asked why did you take all
our money to pay for your excesses. Stimulus does not mean we have to
bankrupt the country in 3 years. I have not seen a lot of smart in the
current packages.

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
I fully admit to being a partisan Democrat. What's ridiculous
to me is the partisans who deny that they're partisan.

Seems like the partisan's here see no evil, hear no evil from their side
of the aisle. ...

I've already suggested that you get your eyes checked, apparently
you're going to need a hearing test too. But you're right in that
I don't see or hear any "evil" connected with Daschle. He made a
very understandable error, reported it to the IRS and paid up in
full. Like I said, no harm, no foul as far as I'm concerned. But
having said that, he did have to withdraw from consideration and
he did so with grace and class. And I'm still not seeing or hearing
any "evil".

I am a registered Democrat and did not vote for Bush or Kerry or Gore.
They are all so bad I voted Libertarian. ...

In other words you'd rather sit on the sidelines and throw spitballs
at the players on the field instead of doing your civic duty.

And what we have for a stimulus bill is mostly pork. Extreme pork. A 900
page bill that no one that is voting on it has read, or understands.
That will not stimulate and will cost my great grandchildren gobs of
money for the sins of my generation and childrens generation.

If we don't pass a stimulus bill in a damn big hurry your great
grandkids won't have to worry about paying down the gobs of money
because they won't have any money. Yeah, it's *that* bad.

--
Ken Fortenberry

What stimulus? Most is pork. Pure, unadulterated lard. Most of the
spending is not now, but years from now. Mob museums? Resod the mall?
These are stimulus? Sitting on the sidelines throwing spitballs. Nope,
voting for the pieces of **** the 2 major parties have run for the last few
cycles, is supporting running pieces of ****. Maybe if a majority of the
voters picked a Libertarian or Green Party candidate, etc. maybe the 2 major
parties would get back in line. I look at both the Dems and Repubs as close
to the Whigs in effectiveness. And both should go the same way.

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

"Tom Littleton" wrote in message
...

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
? Supply-side
economics is, was, and always will be wrongheaded. Anyone who can't see
that by now is just plain blinded by ideology and ignorance.

it goes deeper than even that, Ken. Breaking the hold on some folks of the
Cult of Reagan will be slow process. Ronnie Raygun made his terms a
success by preaching a sermon of self-centered greed (of which
trickle-down economics plays a part) that led the nation down a very wrong
path. It sells, in large part, because it appeals to the human nature in
many, if not most of us. Yet, while guys like David blame the unravelling
of the economy on Dodd and Frank wanting folks to be able to buy houses,
the ability of the underfunded to purchase a home was directly a result of
an unregulated market in mortgage securities, which freed lenders from
having to actually worry about repayment, once they stuck some other poor
suckers(like, say, pensioners and municipalities) with the IOU. As RDean
himself has pointed out, this same set of principles(or lack thereof) has
caused the oddball fluctuation of oil prices, due to an unregulated
commodities market. All of this lack of regulation, lack of oversight and
unbridled greed can rightly be seen as the true legacy of Ronald Reagan.
Tom


If you are blaming the banks for working the rules as written where they
write a mortgage, take their juice and pass off the loan, you better be
prepared to blame your worshiped Clinton. Franklin D. Raines is the one who
pushed that and he as head of Fannie Mae should have gone to jail for lies
about the profit and safety of FM while he was pocketing nearly a $100
million in bonus money. I bet you take all the deductions allowed on your
1040 also. Some one going to give you a bunch of money you take it. I
guess the financial health of the country is not a important as overpaid
college staff.