Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

"Tom Littleton" wrote in message
...

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
Tom, the housing market is down because there is no money. And the
housing **** hit the fan in 2006.

no, you are wrong. The housing market is returning to sanity, after a
grossly inflated bubble.

And the bubble was because of LIAR and not down and easy credit loans.
Loans only made because F&F said they would cover them. Same thing happened
in the dot.bomb Easy money, low margins and everyone thinking the stock
could only go up. Stock for a company with no income, and a website, etc.
Did made Clinton look good. Lots of money coming in from the option taxes
and last conservative Republicans that held spending in check for at least 2
years. Allowed lot of surplus money. Unfortunately that surplus was
committed to long term spending and when the surplus vaporized, we had bills
to pay and no money.

We need a Stimulus package, not a trillion pounds of pork. Look at JFK for
how he jump started the economy.

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
m...

"Tom Littleton" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
m...
How about government cutting the excess spending?

what, exactly, do you consider 'excess' spending?? Hell,
the vast majority of the budget is for defense spending and established
programs such as Medicare, Social Security
and the like.



Lots of the liquidity problems are the Government(s) excess borrowing.
Takes lots of loan money for private people and business out of
circulation.

um, not really, but I am not going to waste 3 pages explaining it to you.
Look it up.
Finally, do you(and others) understand: the principle behind an 'economic
stimulus' is SPENDING by the government. Now, you can choose to disagree
with the principle or theory behind that, but that is what it is.
As for jeff's concerns, I share them, but realize that we are facing a
situation far more dire than jacking up a federal deficit. Layoff levels
of 1/2 million souls per month will lead to a commercial collapse(and
thus commercial real estate/commercial loan collapse) that, if nothing
else, will make folks forget about the housing loan mess pretty quick, as
there is far more dubious paper out there on commercial real estate than
there was on housing, I suspect. If something doesn't stabilize both
employment levels and public confidence, and very quickly, an ugly
downturn could easily become something much worse, IMO.
Tom


A stimulus bill should not cause more problems for us and our children and
grandchildren than not doing as much. Temporary government jobs will just
postpone the recession, layoffs until the trillion bucks is spent. We had
a bailout bill passed by a Democrat controlled Congress with Republican
votes also, and look what that has done. Stimulated $18 billion in bonus
money and not stimulus or bailout. I do not want the same thing with the
next ill conceived bill. Rushed out of Congress with a few people in the
corner writing it. Look at the "Stimulus" spending. Most is not a
stimulus, but future pork. Give a forgiveness of taxes up to $3000 credit
on a mortgage, and most in trouble paying for the house will be able to
keep the house. Buy up 50% of the bad mortgages and will stop a lot of the
real estate problems and would cost a hell of a lot less than $800
billion. And we as a people need to feel some pain. We as a country have
been living on borrowed money for too long. Just like the dot.com boom,
greed has ruled. Houses are no where worth what they have sold for in the
last 10 years. My daughters condo in a beach area of SoCal bought for
$400k 7 years ago, was selling for $900k after 6 years. Lots of fraud in
the mortgage world. Not all in the banks side. Cases of people buying a
house for $200k, selling it to a friend of family member a year later for
$400k, and a 3rd F or F buying it for $700k a year later and then
defaulting on the loan. Nice profit of $500k split 3 ways in 2 years.
Good income, eh? Everybody wants the "Stimulus" bill to erase all pain,
give back all investment losses and pay for their house and gas bill.
Sounds like this is what you want. What are you going to tell your
grandchildren when they asked why did you take all our money to pay for
your excesses. Stimulus does not mean we have to bankrupt the country in
3 years. I have not seen a lot of smart in the current packages.


Seems as if the non partisan Congressional Budget Office thinks somewhat
like me.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ver-long-haul/

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:
I have seen no leadership from the messiah. ...
You should have your eyes checked.

Good eyes.

But you still can't see.

Try removing those ideological blinkers and the ignorance tinted
sunglasses.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Where is the leadership? Not on this stimulus. Seems as if his most
ethical administration and no lobbyists leadership is false. I am hoping he
succeeds in office. But I do not agree with all his socialist leanings, but
I want the country to be better in 4 years. But I have not seen any real
leadership so far. I have a feeling he is going to be like Clinton and see
which way the winds blow before making pronouncements. I would rather see a
Harry S Truman "the buck stops here" leadership. Making hard decisions even
when the his majority of followers disagree. You are the one blinded by
ideology.

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

Calif Bill wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:
I have seen no leadership from the messiah. ...
You should have your eyes checked.
Good eyes.
But you still can't see.

Try removing those ideological blinkers and the ignorance tinted
sunglasses.

Where is the leadership? Not on this stimulus. Seems as if his most
ethical administration and no lobbyists leadership is false. I am hoping he
succeeds in office. But I do not agree with all his socialist leanings, but
I want the country to be better in 4 years. But I have not seen any real
leadership so far. I have a feeling he is going to be like Clinton and see
which way the winds blow before making pronouncements. I would rather see a
Harry S Truman "the buck stops here" leadership. Making hard decisions even
when the his majority of followers disagree. You are the one blinded by
ideology.

If you haven't seen any leadership out of the White House over the
last two weeks it's because you don't *want* to see any leadership.

This stimulus bill and the TARP are the biggest spending bills ever
in the history of the planet, most Americans oppose them and Obama
is going to get it passed and signed in under a month. That, Mr. Bill,
is leadership.

Obama took personal responsibility for the failed Daschle nomination.
That, Mr. Bill, is "the buck stops here" leadership.

You appear to want Obama to abandon his principles, **** off the left
and do the things *you* think are right before you'll give him any
credit for leadership. That, Mr. Bill, is blind ideology.

It's only been two weeks, get back to me in two years Mr. Bill.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

Calif Bill wrote:
Seems as if the non partisan Congressional Budget Office thinks somewhat
like me.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ver-long-haul/

LOL !! Seems to me the right-wing fascist rag "Washington Times" thinks
somewhat like you. You should actually read the CBO report for yourself
instead of believing the nonsense spewed by that "newspaper".

--
Ken Fortenberry

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
This stimulus bill and the TARP are the biggest spending bills ever
in the history of the planet, most Americans oppose them and Obama
is going to get it passed and signed in under a month. That, Mr. Bill,
is leadership.

Obama took personal responsibility for the failed Daschle nomination.
That, Mr. Bill, is "the buck stops here" leadership.

You appear to want Obama to abandon his principles, **** off the left
and do the things *you* think are right before you'll give him any
credit for leadership. That, Mr. Bill, is blind ideology.

It's only been two weeks, get back to me in two years Mr. Bill.

agreed, largely, Ken. I do wish he would get out and push hard to restore
the 46 Billion that was to go to the States, much of it for education. That
money would impact jobs, immediately, and prevent taxes and fees from rising
in states which are facing huge revenue shortfalls. In fact, that part that
the Republicans campaigned to cut might have had as much immediate
stimulatory impact as anything in the bill. $16 Billion was for school
construction projects currently on hold(hence, 'shovel ready', if one wishes
to use that detestable term).
Also, I give Calif.Bill credit for one part of his argument, the
observations on PERSONAL sacrifice and responsibility. I note that Louie
chose not to respond on that matter, when I brought up the BMW driving food
bank patrons. A great deal of this problem was brought on by the conduct of
the citizenry, and a bit of sacrifice by us all will be needed to get out of
this problem. And yes, part of that, far down the road, should the economy
stabilize, is an increase in taxation to help restore some fiscal sanity to
the government. Obama and his team are well aware that we are nowhere near
the point where that is an issue to deal with, and hence(Louie, are you
reading?) they plan NO TAX INCREASES for the forseeable future. Except for
Dave LaCourse and his immediate family, which will be a rider that Barney
Frank plans to attach to the Conference Committee bill.g
Tom
Tom

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

Tom Littleton wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
This stimulus bill and the TARP are the biggest spending bills ever
in the history of the planet, most Americans oppose them and Obama
is going to get it passed and signed in under a month. That, Mr. Bill,
is leadership.

Obama took personal responsibility for the failed Daschle nomination.
That, Mr. Bill, is "the buck stops here" leadership.

You appear to want Obama to abandon his principles, **** off the left
and do the things *you* think are right before you'll give him any
credit for leadership. That, Mr. Bill, is blind ideology.

It's only been two weeks, get back to me in two years Mr. Bill.

agreed, largely, Ken. I do wish he would get out and push hard to restore
the 46 Billion that was to go to the States, much of it for education. That
money would impact jobs, immediately, and prevent taxes and fees from rising
in states which are facing huge revenue shortfalls. In fact, that part that
the Republicans campaigned to cut might have had as much immediate
stimulatory impact as anything in the bill. $16 Billion was for school
construction projects currently on hold(hence, 'shovel ready', if one wishes
to use that detestable term).

The House - Senate reconciliation process ought to be interesting. Pelosi
was alleged to have told Obama, “I don’t mind you driving the bus over me,
but I don’t appreciate your backing it up and running over me again and
again.”
I'm hoping Obama will get over this bi-partisan crap and tell the GOP to
go straight to hell.

Also, I give Calif.Bill credit for one part of his argument, the
observations on PERSONAL sacrifice and responsibility. I note that Louie
chose not to respond on that matter, when I brought up the BMW driving food
bank patrons. A great deal of this problem was brought on by the conduct of
the citizenry, and a bit of sacrifice by us all will be needed to get out of
this problem.

We're all going to have to sacrifice but I don't buy into the notion
that this economic catastrophe can be attributed to the citizenry.
That sounds like George Will pontificating from on high and it's just
flat out wrong. This catastrophe was caused by a lack of regulatory
oversight. It wasn't the poor schmuck who bought more home than he
could afford, it was the bankers who called that 'C' rated mortgage
a 'AAA' rated mortgage and the so-called regulators who let them get
away with it that are at the bottom of this pyramid. Take thousands
of such mortgages, bundled them up, sell them as if they're 'AAA' nine
or ten times, leverage them some hundred fold as derivatives and then
stand back and watch Lehman Bros. bite the dust. Don't blame this on
the citizenry.

And yes, part of that, far down the road, should the economy
stabilize, is an increase in taxation to help restore some fiscal sanity to
the government. Obama and his team are well aware that we are nowhere near
the point where that is an issue to deal with, and hence(Louie, are you
reading?) they plan NO TAX INCREASES for the forseeable future. Except for
Dave LaCourse and his immediate family, which will be a rider that Barney
Frank plans to attach to the Conference Committee bill.g

Poor Louie, that damn Barney Frank really has it in for him. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

Calif Bill wrote:
"Tom Littleton" wrote:
"Calif Bill" wrote:
I have seen no leadership from the messiah. He is supporting the bill as
it came out of the House. very little stimulation and gobs of cost.

actually, exactly wrong, Bill. Obama is quietly supporting the version
that is being re-written in the Senate, and urging the House to go along
without re-tinkering with it.
And, based on the economics experts, the balance of the Senate compromise
fit the mold of what is needed. The only questions seemingly remaining
a 1) will this approach work, or be timely enough and 2) is it large
enough? Many feel, given the current rate of job loss and business losses,
a package of double this size is needed.

Obama has changed his support to the new bill. Just going along with the
flow. Where is some leadership.

Obama came out strongly in opposition to the "Buy American" provisions
in the stimulus bill. That is leadership, Mr. Bill.

A package double this may be needed. But
not with the hurryup writing of this bill. This bill is a clusterf&&k in
regards to anybody really understanding the bill and what we really need.

The thing is, we're in uncharted territory here. The economies of the
world have never been so interconnected and the scale of the catastrophe
has never been this enormous. *NOBODY* knows, for sure, what to do or
what we really need.

That's why the spitball throwers like you and the ideologues of the GOP
are sitting in the catbird seat right now. We all know that there will
be missteps, mistakes and outright failures in trying to address this
catastrophe. So the GOP washes their hands of the whole deal, nitpicks
each and every misstep and says, "See, we told you so. We should have
followed the GOP plan."

Resodding the Mall is not something needed for a stimulus, as well as a lot
of other pet projects inserted. The last $850 Billion Bailout was written
with the same haste and look how it turned out.

OK genius, how did it turn out ? Tell us what the current state of the
economy would look like if we hadn't put the first half of that bailout
into the financial institutions. And then look into your crystal ball
and tell us what Geithner is going to announce about the second half on
Tuesday.

And that was a Democrat
controlled Congress also, so do not try to blame Bush for the failure.

Congress gave the Bush administration (read Paulson) pretty much carte
blanche on distributing the first half of TARP. If it failed, and you
have no way of knowing whether it did or not, then it is certainly the
fault of the Bush administration.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

On Sun, 08 Feb 2009 13:39:26 GMT, "Tom Littleton"
wrote:

Also, I give Calif.Bill credit for one part of his argument, the
observations on PERSONAL sacrifice and responsibility. I note that Louie
chose not to respond on that matter, when I brought up the BMW driving food
bank patrons. A great deal of this problem was brought on by the conduct of
the citizenry, and a bit of sacrifice by us all will be needed to get out of
this problem.

Horse caca. The couple with the BMW lost their jobs. Perhaps they
too couldn't afford a BMW, like the homes sold to thousands that
couldn't afford it, via F and F. Remember how excited you were when
you bought your first home? The loan officer at the bank went over
everything about your income and how you could pay for it. And, it
turned out he was right. When F and F got involved with loans they
KNEW the people could not repay, THEY - F and F - were irresponsible.
I agree if the folks borring the money had any modicum of common sense
they wouldn't have entered into the contract. But F and F wanted to
loan them the money, did, and billions have been lost because of it.

The couple with the BMW, Cambodian imigrants, btw, will probably sell
the BMW, or at least they should if they are relying on others to feed
them. They seemed like respectable, honest, hard working people who
are just caught up in the present economical problems.

BTW, today's economy is nowhere near as bad as it was in the lat 70s
when we had double digit inflation, unemployment, and interest rates.
Are you old enough to remember those horrible years under Carter? We
got through those years without trillion dollar "stimulus" packages.

Dave

Willie and Wesley and the boys...
 

On Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:25:29 -0600, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

We're all going to have to sacrifice but I don't buy into the notion
that this economic catastrophe can be attributed to the citizenry.
That sounds like George Will pontificating from on high and it's just
flat out wrong. This catastrophe was caused by a lack of regulatory
oversight. It wasn't the poor schmuck who bought more home than he
could afford, it was the bankers who called that 'C' rated mortgage
a 'AAA' rated mortgage and the so-called regulators who let them get
away with it that are at the bottom of this pyramid. Take thousands
of such mortgages, bundled them up, sell them as if they're 'AAA' nine
or ten times, leverage them some hundred fold as derivatives and then
stand back and watch Lehman Bros. bite the dust. Don't blame this on
the citizenry.

Exactamundo. And the failure of F and F can be attributed to those
who had oversight on them, namely Barney, Dodd, Obama, et al. I can
still see the clip of Barney in 2006 saying, "There is nothing wrong
with F and F. They are doing well." Horse caca!

Dave