"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Nor do we spend enough time with diving females.

Well, sure, there's that. But your research doesn't seem to address this,
the much more interesting of the problems.

Danl

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:17:26 GMT, Tim Lysyk
wrote:

Peter Charles wrote:

"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...

Looking for photos of real caddis pupea of the more common genera like
Hydropsyche, Cheumatopsyche, and Rhyacophilia.


Search on "Sedge" pupae. that should turn up a bit more.

TL
MC



Thanks for the suggestions guys, however, I'm hoping to find
entomology sites rather than fly tying sites so I can find the
pictures of the actual bugs rather than somebody's idea of what the
fly should be.

try http://www.usask.ca/biology/skabugs/caddis/trichop.html . There is a
picture of a pupae on this page. Pictures of caddis puape are not easy
to come bu; there are a few in the aquatic insect texts I use. I think
the photo on the above link is pretty representative...they look lke
like fat larvae with stumpy wings anbd long legs.

Tim Lysyk


Thanks Tim. This page has one good picture of a pupa but they don't
identify it. I figure some combination of ginger and brown works for
most pupa except the black species.

Peter

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On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:36:32 GMT, "Thomas Littleton"
wrote:


"Peter Charles" wrote in message
.. .
.
Sure the larval flies will take fish but a dead drifted pupa, fished
at the right depth will take a helluva lot more if it's fished during
an emergence.

admitted, but has LaFontaine's sparkle pupae been improved upon??
The colors might be tinkered with a bit, but a lot of what a fish seems to
see of pupae is brightness and reflected light.

Nor do we spend enough time with diving females. My very first trout
was taken on an EHC when I was dragging it behind me as I waded
upstream. Hardly the romantic image of one's first trout, but an
object lesson that cadddis don't behave like mayflies. I've since
taken a lot of fish on diving caddis.

I'm convinced many,if not most, of the trout I've taken on traditional
winged wets we due to trout looking for diving female caddis.

. It's worth doing
the research.

It's damn near a religion to do so where I live.....the Tulpehocken is a
tail water, and as such, has a lot of different caddis of all sizes.
Imitation of them at several stages is a necessity to succeed much of the
season.

Last year, I put some effort into developing caddis wets with a bit of
success. It was enough to encourage further efforts into producing a
class of flies specifically targeting caddis emergence on either the
swung line or the sunk line. Hopefully they'll take a few fish this
year too.

Have I unloaded any Submergers on you?? If not, remind me at Penn's.
Or, as an old Jefferson Airplane song was titled, "Something of Value will
come to you Shortly"(or, something like that). At any rate, I want you to
give me an A/B trial with your technique versus your emerger and female
diver imitations. You might like them.

Tom



Nope, no submergers -- will run some trials if the Penns River Gods
smile on us.

I've fished winged wets and done OK on them but the fussiness of
getting good quill wings them have them survive the first fish, has
turned me off of the style. Still have some in my boxes that I dredge
out now and again.

Peter

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On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:22:19 GMT, "Larry L"
wrote:


"Peter Charles" wrote


Thanks for the suggestions guys, however, I'm hoping to find
entomology sites rather than fly tying sites so I can find the
pictures of the actual bugs rather than somebody's idea of what the
fly should be.


In my limited experience you are dead on track .... catching the real bug
and using that as a model is FAR more satisfying than imitating an imitation
.... but 99% of flies are developed the second way, varying existing
patterns without ever looking at a bug.

After your research, you'll likely end up with something similar to existing
flies but you'll fish it with much more confidence ... the key ingredient of
any pattern, imho.

I'm just started on my own selection of "copied from real models" patterns,
maybe 1/3 the bugs I fish over ... it is very worth the effort.

The first was a Trico spinner 10 years ago. After a long not very
successful day watching fish reject a store bought poly wing spinner on
Silver Creek I broke down, seined some bugs, got out the magnifier and ...
Whoa, Homer .. they don't look that much like the store bought pattern. I
dug through my stuff, tied up a couple different experiments and the next
day I hooked fish nearly at will, even broke one fish off then landed him
later with my new pattern still stuck in his jaw and got my fly back. I
got so damn arrogant that I stopped on Kilpatrick Bridge and told some guy
to pick out a fish and I'd catch it ... did catch the one he pointed to, too
G ( although I detected his "what as asshole" glance and have regretted my
arrogant display ever since then .... but that is what real models can do to
you :-)

I know it's Winter, but catching the bug is better than even a good picture


Ya, fun to do that eh? I had a gentleman on one nice Grand day, who
felt that it was necessary to give me detailed instructions on my dry
technique (or lack thereof). Anyway, the risers were mostly big creek
chubs in full maiting colours so I hung on a mini-brown instead and
after catching about a dozen browns in the space of about 15 minutes,
including the biggest fish in the pool that he had fished to
unsuccessfully, he eventually broke down and asked me what I was
using. Loved it!

Peter

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On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:10:34 -0800, "Danl"
wrote:


"Peter Charles" wrote in message
.. .

[snip]

Nor do we spend enough time with diving females.

Well, sure, there's that. But your research doesn't seem to address this,
the much more interesting of the problems.

Danl


Noted: Just a matter of finding the right pool, eh? :)


Peter

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"Peter Charles" wrote



Thanks Tim. This page has one good picture of a pupa but they don't
identify it. I figure some combination of ginger and brown works for
most pupa except the black species.



My experience, and I always feel compelled to point out that it's limited,
indicates that pale olive and a yellowish ginger produce best during
hydropsyche time. If you catch freshly emerged adults they tend towards
these colors ( sexes different colors? ) but most of what you'll snag from
streamside weeds will be brown bodied, they seem to dull up after a short
period.

Obviously, one of the biggest reasons for coming up with your own patterns
is to match LOCAL bugs better, so YMMV

You and Mike mention shrouded patterns. Mid-June the caddis some on strong
on the Firehole. Last year, a wide variety of circumstances, mainly a bad
knee, had me wanting to fish downstream on a swing. I loop dubbed a fat
pale green or pale ginger body of Antron blend and lightly brushed it to
make it rougher, applied a very sparse downwing style wing of similar
colored Antron yarn ( looped around thread for durability ) and combed it
out over the top of the body. This 'wing" then looks little like a wing,
it's very thin and reflective ... think negligee and you get the ideaG .
Next somes a couple turns of partridge. Now add two or three wood duck
fibers on top and trailing backwards, rather long, cover the tiedown area
with some muskrat ( I bought a whole skin, so muskrat finds it's way into a
lot of my ties ... hares ear might be better ) I had better luck with
some tied with a black bead, but unweighted produced well, too. Treat the
thing with watershed ... fish it down with a reach cast, rather like a
spring creek dry presentation ... maintain just enough tension to feel it
then as it gets to the end of available line, let it swing.

This pattern produced VERY well at times, and was nearly useless at others.
This leads me to believe that trout were taking it "for" something when they
ate it, rather than just being attracted and thinking " might taste ok" My
assumption is they ate it as a hydropsyche pupa, but who knows. Fresh flies
alway worked better than soggy ones, and two or three casts without a take
was reason to change, or maybe FrogFanny.

On the West coast a Bird's Nest treated with powdered floatant and fished
with splitshot is very popular and effective. The artist in me
appreciates this approach ... i.e. actually having real bubbles on the fly
.... over the shiny stuff that looks like bubbles approach .... a mixture of
the two might be the best, and that is kinda what I tried for, get bubbles
to cling to a fly with a sparse amount of shiny stuff in it.

I'm glad to hear Mike say he saw what LaFontaine reported ... my own caddis
emerger efforts, and I've gotten a couple 'famous' tiers to admit the same
of theirs, come from trying to imagine what a pupa would look like with
bubbles because "they" say the pupa have bubbles. Until I actually see it
myself, I'll still wonder if the sparkle isn't more attractor than
imitation, I guess

"Larry L" wrote in message
...

SNIP
I'm glad to hear Mike say he saw what LaFontaine reported ... my own
caddis
emerger efforts, and I've gotten a couple 'famous' tiers to admit the same
of theirs, come from trying to imagine what a pupa would look like with
bubbles because "they" say the pupa have bubbles. Until I actually see
it
myself, I'll still wonder if the sparkle isn't more attractor than
imitation, I guess


It is not particularly difficult to observe this. You need a tank, ( quite a
small one will do, even a large jar), some larvae, and patience! One can
see the effects quite easily.

One also does not have to dive, ( I have not been diving for years, I feel
too old for it, and my bones don´t like the cold anyway!) one may use a
periscope. These are easily built from plastic pipe. Square pipe, such as
is used for central heating convection, or cooker hoods etc is better than
round, it is easier to fit the mirrors. You still need patience of course,
and a good idea where the beasts are ascending! :)

The effect is not so much one of isolated bubbles, but of one large silvery
bubble, which reflects the surroundings, and the basic colour may shine
through somewhat. When I first read Fontaines´s findings, I was very
excited, pleased that his results so closely corresponded to mine, and
immediately tied up the patterns, but unfortunately, they did not work very
well for me. My own patterns were better. I have no idea why this should be
so.

Lastly, when the pupae are ascending, they do it quite quickly ( at least
the species I managed to observe did), and they also hatch amazingly
quickly. The trout still pick them off, but they have to be quick, which
often means fast slashing takes. This of course also depends on depth and
speed of flow.

Sometimes movement ( a lift!) helps, sometimes it does not seem too.

The "shrouded" patterns were my best bets in most cases, and usually mixed
light brown ( hares ear colour!), with darker "wings" etc. Often it is very
difficult to determine which species is hatching, but the shrouded silver
patterns tend to catch anyway. In my opinion, on most European streams, the
caddis is far more important than mayflies, and also has a much broader
hatch window. This may also be true of some American streams, but of course
I am only guessing that.

Indeed, were I limited in any way to patterns, I would feel quite confident
on practically any stream, with a range of midges, and caddis.

TL
MC

"Mike Connor" wrote



It is not particularly difficult to observe this. You need a tank, ( quite
a
small one will do, even a large jar), some larvae, and patience! One can
see the effects quite easily.


I've seen some video of the silver bubble taken in a tank. I always
wondered if an object lit from the side and photographed from the side would
look the same as one lit from above and observed from below ... closer to
trout's view. I guess I could try getting a tank, maybe I will. Most of
the fishing season I live in a travel trailer and an aquarium is out of the
question .... and I'm not sure how I'd cool and oxygenate a jar, either



The effect is not so much one of isolated bubbles, but of one large
silvery
bubble, which reflects the surroundings, and the basic colour may shine
through somewhat.

That was the impression I had ... rather like a waterboatman, which I have
seen


When I first read Fontaines´s findings, I was very
excited, pleased that his results so closely corresponded to mine, and
immediately tied up the patterns, but unfortunately, they did not work
very
well for me.

I've never had good success with any of his caddis patterns either, and I'll
admit that is one reason I'm glad to hear your observations match his. Two
of my life's passions, dog training and fly fishing, both have lots of
literature, lots of pretend science, and lots of misinformation, passed on
for generations in many cases. In the dog training area I personally have
known 10 or 12 published authors, and their dogs, and can testify that only
one of them could consistently train a hungry dog to eat. Some of
LaFontaines ( not to speak ill of the dead ) theory's, in several of his
books, seem better able to sell books than qualify as science


My own patterns were better. I have no idea why this should be
so.


I know .... as I posted earlier .... confidence is THE most important
material in any pattern



Indeed, were I limited in any way to patterns, I would feel quite
confident
on practically any stream, with a range of midges, and caddis.


The midges for sure ... my caddis knowledge and faith increases each season.
I have knee surgery soon and I'm hoping it will allow a little more variety
in the types of water I can painlessly fish. If so, I'm certain to spend
more time tossing caddis ties. BUT, and I'm sure you know this Mike, but
others may not ... 'soft' rivers like Silver Creek and the ranch section of
the HFork, famous for mayfly hatches, are often "tough" simply because the
anglers refuse to see the caddis everywhere ... a mistake trout don't make.

"Peter Charles" wrote

Looking for photos of real caddis pupea of the more common genera like


http://www.pbase.com/michellemahood/image/29614395

all of her photos are damn good

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:25:35 GMT, "Larry L"
wrote:


"Peter Charles" wrote

Looking for photos of real caddis pupea of the more common genera like


http://www.pbase.com/michellemahood/image/29614395

all of her photos are damn good



Yup. Some really nice shots -- thanks.

Peter

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