I suspected they were not. I have never been sure of Ole and Lena
however?
Wolfgang wrote:
"BJ Conner" wrote in message
oups.com...
This month is the 100 th anniversary of the US Forest Service.

There was a "National Geographic Radio Expeditions" piece about a research
project under the auspices of the USFS on public radio this morning.....to
be continued tomorrow.

http://www.npr.org/templates/topics/...topicId=3D1023

Neither Teddy Roosevelt or Gifford Pinchot is from Wisconsin.

Somewhat surprisingly, perhaps, lots of people are not from Wisconsin.
Rabindranath Tagore and Dag Hammarskj=F6ld, for example, come readily to =
mind.
=20
Wolfgang
and don't even get me started on the maoris! :(

"BJ Conner" wrote in message
oups.com...

I suspected they were not. I have never been sure of Ole and Lena
however?

Minnesota, if memory serves.

Wolfgang
cyli?

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Wolfgang.

As I'm sure you know, there are all sorts of problems with the notion of
"national character," not the least of which is that insofar as any such can
be reliably identified at all, they are subject to change over time.

Yes, but very slowly (as brought about by, say, the Industrial
Revolution) or rapidly, in the case of a cataclysm, such as losing a
war.

You may recall Ruth Benedict's _The Chrysanthemyum and the Sword_, a
study of Japanese national character done during WW II. I believe it
was done at the request of the military, to help plan strategy.

After VJ Day MacArthur was given the job of changing the Japanese
national character, and did he ever!

Recently the telly has shown WW II-era pictures of Okinawan
civilians jumping off cliffs to avoid captur by American troops. I
can't imagine them doing it today! Nor young men flying Kamikaze
missions, or even wives toddling along a respectful ten feet behind
their husbands.

Wolfgang
who would bet a shiny new nickel that the identities of muir, leopold and
nelson are a complete mystery to most of the state's residents.

I'm not foolish enough to take that bet! I know I'd lose.

vince

On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:17:47 -0500, "Wolfgang"
wrote:


"BJ Conner" wrote in message
roups.com...

I suspected they were not. I have never been sure of Ole and Lena
however?

Minnesota, if memory serves.

Wolfgang
cyli?

Ole and Lena dey be from Minnesodah, yah. Ole's friend, Sven, he be
from heare, too.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the thoughtful response, Wolfgang.

As I'm sure you know, there are all sorts of problems with the notion of
"national character," not the least of which is that insofar as any such
can
be reliably identified at all, they are subject to change over time.

Yes, but very slowly (as brought about by, say, the Industrial
Revolution) or rapidly, in the case of a cataclysm, such as losing a
war.

You may recall Ruth Benedict's _The Chrysanthemyum and the Sword_, a
study of Japanese national character done during WW II. I believe it
was done at the request of the military, to help plan strategy.

After VJ Day MacArthur was given the job of changing the Japanese
national character, and did he ever!

Recently the telly has shown WW II-era pictures of Okinawan
civilians jumping off cliffs to avoid captur by American troops. I
can't imagine them doing it today! Nor young men flying Kamikaze
missions, or even wives toddling along a respectful ten feet behind
their husbands.

It's been a long time since I read Benedict's book......'76-'77 was the year
of anthropology and paleontology for me.....Boas, Mead, Montagu, Dart,
Chagnon, Leakey, etc......a trip down memory lane. :)

Even more interesting than her analysis of Japanese national character
(still controversial, but highly respected nevertheless), I think, is
Benedict herself as a harbinger of great changes to come in American
culture. It was quite a step forward for a woman to be entrusted with the
critically important task of assessing such a formidable enemy as the
Japanese in WWII.

Wolfgang
who would bet a shiny new nickel that the identities of muir, leopold and
nelson are a complete mystery to most of the state's residents.

I'm not foolish enough to take that bet! I know I'd lose.

vince

Rats!

Wolfgang

It's been a long time since I read Benedict's book......'76-'77 was the year
of anthropology and paleontology for me.....Boas, Mead, Montagu, Dart,
Chagnon, Leakey, etc......a trip down memory lane. :)

I've read a little by or about most of those--just for fun-- except
Dart. Never encountered him.

Napoleon Chagnon was on the faculty here at PSU for some years--1960s
- '70s. Used to come to our TGIF beer parties at a local pub but
never brought his own cigarets. What a cheap *******! But his films
of the Yanamomo are terrific!

Years later I read in the Washington Post that he was in serious
trouble for some kind of hanky-panky he had pulled but I can't
remember the details. Somehow it didn't surprise me.

I enjoyed Benedict's Patterns of Culture and a couple of Mead's books
but the anthropologists I found most interesting are Robert Redfield,
V. Gordon Childe and Karl Polanyi--though I'm not sure whether Polanyi
was an anthropologist or economist. His work overlapped both
disciplines.

vince

"vincent p. norris" wrote:

Napoleon Chagnon was on the faculty here at PSU for some years--1960s
- '70s. Used to come to our TGIF beer parties at a local pub but
never brought his own cigarets. What a cheap *******! But his films
of the Yanamomo are terrific!

You should count your blessing, Vince. Could have been a lot worse:

"The Yanomamo are quite sociable with their tobacco. When someone removes
a wad and lays it down for a second, another might snatch it up and suck
on it until the owner wants it back. The borrower may be a child, a buddy,
a wife, a stranger, or, if willing, an anthropologist."
[attributed to Chagnon http://ethnobotany.yage.net/article1.html ]

:)

Sorry we missed you the last day of the clave.

JR

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

//snip//
After VJ Day MacArthur was given the job of changing the Japanese
national character, and did he ever!

Recently the telly has shown WW II-era pictures of Okinawan
civilians jumping off cliffs to avoid captur by American troops. I
can't imagine them doing it today! Nor young men flying Kamikaze
missions, or even wives toddling along a respectful ten feet behind
their husbands.

It's been a long time since I read Benedict's book......'76-'77 was the
year of anthropology and paleontology for me.....Boas, Mead, Montagu,
Dart, Chagnon, Leakey, etc......a trip down memory lane. :)

Even more interesting than her analysis of Japanese national character
(still controversial, but highly respected nevertheless), I think, is
Benedict herself as a harbinger of great changes to come in American
culture. It was quite a step forward for a woman to be entrusted with the
critically important task of assessing such a formidable enemy as the
Japanese in WWII.


I bought Ruth Benedict's book (I have it on the same shelf with Chagnon's
book about the Yanomamo) when I went to Japan with the Navy in 1970.
Remarkably insightful book, and I still read portions of it from time to
time. 1970 was my year to read about Japan (Lady Murasaki, Kawabata,
Mishima, Reischauer, etc.) Combined they gave a pretty good insight into
Japanese national character, which Americans seldom understand. (Actually, I
don't think many Americans understand our own national character.)

It's unfortunate that Benedict's book seems to have been about the last
analysis of "national character" that got much attention from U.S.
policy-makers before taking on the job of running another country.

Bob

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
It's been a long time since I read Benedict's book......'76-'77 was the
year
of anthropology and paleontology for me.....Boas, Mead, Montagu, Dart,
Chagnon, Leakey, etc......a trip down memory lane. :)

I've read a little by or about most of those--just for fun-- except
Dart. Never encountered him.

Dart was one of the premier early twentieth century anthropologists, famous
chiefly for his discovery of the celebrated "Taung" child in 1924. I don't
know if any of his works are still in print, but older copies shouldn't be
hard to find. Some of his stuff may be in the public domain by now, and
thus available for free on line.

Napoleon Chagnon was on the faculty here at PSU for some years--1960s
- '70s. Used to come to our TGIF beer parties at a local pub but
never brought his own cigarets. What a cheap *******! But his films
of the Yanamomo are terrific!

Years later I read in the Washington Post that he was in serious
trouble for some kind of hanky-panky he had pulled but I can't
remember the details. Somehow it didn't surprise me.

Chagnon was (and presumably still is) at the center of the biggest ****storm
ever to hit anthropology. It all started with his study of the Yanomami
Indians and the subsequent publication of his enthnography, "Yanomamo: The
Fierce People." The book was hugely popular....the first to outsell
Margaret Mead's "Coming of Age in Samoa," and was a mainstay of college
introductory anthro courses, including the one I took in about 1976, for
decades. There were rumblings from skeptical colleagues from the beginning,
and they got continually louder and more strident as time passed, but the
excrement REALLY hit the air circulating device with the publication of
Patrick Tierney's "Darkness in El Dorado: How Scientists and Journalists
Devastated the Amazon" in 2000. The short version.....

Tierney (as well as many others) accused Chagnon (as well as many others) of
just about every possible ethical breach, sin, misdemeanor and felony
possible in their dealings with and exploitation of the Yanomami.....all
ostensibly in the name of science but, according to their critics, really in
pursuit of their own nefarious agendas. "Darkness in El Dorado" with its
references to the careless spread of disease, murder, economic exploitation,
incitement to war, sexual misconduct, illicit relationships with corrupt
govermental agencies, gangsters, gold miners and other ne'er-do-wells,
conflicts with missionaries, internecine strife among the princciple
anthropologists, etc., reads like some sort of demented acid-induced latter
day "Heart of Darkness."

Chagnon was a protégé of James Neel who in turn was (if memory serves) a
student of Claude Levi-Strauss. It seems that all three had some very
strong ideas concerning the salutary role of violence in human reproductive
success. At the heart of the accusations against Chagnon and Neel is the
widespread belief that they were more than willing to do whatever was
necessary to ensure that an already notoriously violent people would behave
in such a manner as to corroborate their claims and validate their theories.

Needless to say, Tierney doesn't lack critics of his own, but he also has a
lot of support from other heavyweights in the anthro business.

If you're interested, a Google search on Chagnon, Neel (who died recently, I
believe), Jacques Lizot (a French anthropologist and Chagnon rival working
in the same area at the same time.....and a serious whack-job if Tierney is
to be believed), Tierney, and Terence Turner (another major Chagnon critic)
should turn up millions of hits. Good luck! :)

I enjoyed Benedict's Patterns of Culture and a couple of Mead's books
but the anthropologists I found most interesting are Robert Redfield,
V. Gordon Childe and Karl Polanyi--though I'm not sure whether Polanyi
was an anthropologist or economist. His work overlapped both
disciplines.

I'm not familiar with Redfield, Childe or Polanyi. I'll keep an eye out for
them......I still have a bit of uncovered floor space somewhere. :(

Wolfgang

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 20:08:22 -0700, JR wrote:

"vincent p. norris" wrote:

Napoleon Chagnon was on the faculty here at PSU for some years--1960s
- '70s. Used to come to our TGIF beer parties at a local pub but
never brought his own cigarets. What a cheap *******! But his films
of the Yanamomo are terrific!
Thanks for the quotation (yech!) and the kind thought, JR. I, too,
regret missing you guys for a last day of fishing and perhaps a few
good stories later.

vince