wrote in message
oups.com...
Right on Jon.


See, there's the thing about cans of worms......once it's been opened, it
can be beastly difficult to get them wiggly little critters back in.

And so.......

Jon got it about as wrong as he possibly could have. Once the levies let go
(and probably even before) "the city" pretty much ceased to exist as any
kind of effective entity......let alone in the suddenly acquired role of a
first line of defense against something that it had undoubtedly never
prepared for and beyond a possibility of doubt was beyond its capacity even
under the best of circumstances. No electricity, no land-line phones, no
mobile phones....e.g. NO communications, no potable water....NO ****ING
STREETS! WHAT, exactly, could or should the city have done?

The state of Louisiana, on the other hand, presumably has considerably
greater available resources (even given its well documented history of pork
barrel politics, graft, cronyism, and all around corruption and waste) which
quite possibly could have been.....and, if so, most certainly SHOULD have
been.....brought to bear in a more timely fashion. However, the entire
coastline of the state got hit (some places harder than others, to be sure)
and it's safe to assume that its resources were stretched as well.

The Feds.......well, Katrina didn't just jump up out of the shrubbery and
say boo without any warning. There was no doubt that this was going to be a
bad one. There was time.....LOTS of time.....to prepare an appropriate
response. There are five uniformed services whose members are highly
trained and well equipped to respond to emergency situations with, among
other things, a rapid mobilization of personnel, equipment and supplies. In
addition, there is a whole (grossly bloated if history has anything at all
to teach us) federal agency devoted to nothing but responding to civil
emergencies. FEMA has by now had a pretty good deal of experience in
dealing with the devastation left in the aftermath of hurricanes in the
southeastern United States. Furthermore, the feds have a variety of
precedents for mobilizing various National Guard units in times of national
(and, yes, even regional) crisis.

What's happened in Louisiana in the past few days is yet another monumental
moral, economic, intellectual, legal and logistical ****up that should be
laid at the same morally, intellectually, legally, economically, and
militarily bankrupt doorstep as all the rest of the astounding and
unconscionable debacle that has been the last half decade. The address, in
case anyone should be inclined to deliver, is 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue,
Washington, D.C. I'll do you the courtesy of assuming you've got sufficient
native wit to look up the zip code for yourselves.

Wolfgang
and, as always, there's more.......LOTS more.

On 3 Sep 2005 00:27:37 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

(Jonathan Cook) wrote in news:df9jk9$mf1$1
:

riverman wrote:

I know that hindsight is 20-20

I don't care about left-right politics, but I certainly wouldn't
lay this at the feet of the feds. The first line is the city and
the state, and it appears they had no real plan at all, just
crossing their fingers and hoping it would never happen. A city
half below sea level should have been prepared for this for years...

Jon.

It has nothing to do with left-right politics, but this is what FEMA is
supposed to be covering. Even Bush is saying that the Fed's response is
less than acceptable.



I think the scope of this thing is beyond most of us .The logistics
alone are just huge.
I will say when all is said and done, blame, if any is required for
some reason, will be liberally spread around NO, the State Capital and
DC.

Count on Tim to cut to the party line when the Bushies once again **** into
the wind. None of the Wingnuts want to own up to the budget rip-offs,
corruption and mismanagement on their watch. Its just, . . . "now that I
stepped in the **** we all need to stick together". . . and "lets not play
the blame game." and "I stole it fair and square, so I want to keep it" and
"lets all pray together (that we don't get caught)."

Bull****. Adults own their mistakes. And thats one of the main reasons I
believe that right-wing politics is less of an adult belief set, and more of
a personality disorder.

Dave

"BJ Conner" wrote; "All those farmers who ship corn etc. out of New Orleans
could just as well truck it over to Baltimore or
somewhere."

Good news BJ the corn that is shipped out of New Orleans is actually not in
New Orleans but upriver. The grain elevators are all okay and not damaged.
I would be more worried about not getting coffee. The good news as far as
coffee is concern though the Port of Baton Rouge has a large facility and it
was not damaged.

Dominos sugar lost a facility on the intracoastal canal and Proctor and
Gamble lost a coffee plant.

Sarge

People have been looking for reading material in other threads, these two
are interesting but have little to do with fishing fly or otherwise. The
first is about the pumps in New ORleans and the second is the history of New
ORleans and the drainage system. The COEs been at 100 years.
http://www.slideruleera.net/NewOrleansPumps.pdf
http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/hi...nsDrainage.htm


"Sarge" wrote in message
...
"BJ Conner" wrote; "All those farmers who ship corn etc. out of New
Orleans
could just as well truck it over to Baltimore or
somewhere."

Good news BJ the corn that is shipped out of New Orleans is actually not
in
New Orleans but upriver. The grain elevators are all okay and not
damaged.
I would be more worried about not getting coffee. The good news as far as
coffee is concern though the Port of Baton Rouge has a large facility and
it
was not damaged.

Dominos sugar lost a facility on the intracoastal canal and Proctor and
Gamble lost a coffee plant.

Sarge

Sarge!
I expect I'm a day late and dollar short with this, but the word here
was that you are in that region, and I'm glad to see you posting. Hope
you weathered the storm alright.

--riverman

David Snedeker wrote:
Count on Tim to cut to the party line
snipped pure typical Dave S. bull****

I said nothing about who was right and wrong. There is no doubt this
wasn't handled right, and the buck stops at the President's door. There
needs to be a long hard look at what got screwed up and what can be done
to make it better the next time. It's obvious this country wasn't ready
for anything of this magnitude, and corrections must be made. But first
things first - EVERYONE needs to concentrate on helping those in need
now, and do the (sigh) postmortem later.
--
TL,
Tim
---------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj/

And when did he say this? After the 4th day, given that the first 3
days he was on vacation?

"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
...
Wolfgang wrote:

Once the levies let go
(and probably even before) "the city" pretty much ceased to exist as any
kind of effective entity

Of course. Levees letting go is hardly the time to start action, though.

You're right, of course, better to wait a few weeks.

By then you're already a day late and a dollar short.

Oh. I see. Well, I've got a dollar. To whom shall I send it?

WHAT, exactly, could or should the city have done?

Had a _plan_. If you read what I wrote, that's what I said.

Plans are good. Um.......well, if there's someone available to implement
them. But all the plans in the world don't do the city of New Orleans a
goddamn bit of good if there is no city of New Orleans. For the past
several days, THERE HAS BEEN NO ****ING CITY OF NEW ORLEANS!!! See what I
mean?

The state of Louisiana, on the other hand, presumably has considerably
...
and it's safe to assume that its resources were stretched as well.

Check a map and see what else is on their coastline.

No thanks. I don't particularly care what else is on their cosatline.

The Feds.......well, Katrina didn't just jump up out of the shrubbery and
say boo without any warning. There was no doubt that this was going to
be a
bad one. There was time.....LOTS of time.....to prepare an appropriate

EXACTLY!

Not that it really matters all that much, but do you have ANY idea of which
side of this "argument" you are on?

And it is NOT just the feds who should have had a plan.

True, true.......theoretically at least, just about anybody could benefit
from a plan. Why, heck, even YOU might.

I agree the
feds dropped _a_ ball, but I think a bigger one was dropped at the
city and state levels.

City? What city? State? What, Louisiana? O.k., I get it.......this is a
joke, right?

All three levels are guilty of mishandling this.

Levels? Hm......chutes and ladders? I LOVE that game!!

(So don't claim I'm letting the feds off the hook. I'm not.)

Never one to shrink from going out on a limb, I'm going to guess that they
don't much care.

But my stomach turns to see a mayor curse out the feds when his own
government did _nothing_ beforehand except "announce" an evacuation
that only the rich people could comply with.

And they should have..........what?

Yes, the COE is fed. Yes, they weren't getting funding to improve the
levees. But in the meantime, the city should have been handling the
condition it had. The city, in cooperation with the state, could have
had a plan in place that would have had every schoolbus in the state
in New Orleans by Saturday night when the mayor called for an evacuation
but didn't provide any resources to help half his population evacuate.

What......does New Mexico have some sort of prohibition against the import
of reality or something?

What, did he expect everyone to go find a bed and breakfast to stay
at for a month?

Well, it's not as if there's any shortage.......****, we've got hundreds of
B&Bs that would have been delighted to have the business. Too late now, of
course, Labor Day weekend and all that.......you know.

He and the state could have had a plan,

True, true.......theoretically at least, just about anybody could benefit
from a plan. Why, heck, even YOU might.

could have
commandeered every school in the state as a refugee camp and had every
schoolbus take the people out by Sunday evening.

Well, aside from the inevitable turf war consequent on a mayor's
comandeering of every school in the state, this wonderful plan also seems to
overlook a niggling detail known in the trade as "logistics". Yeah, maybe
Dick Daley the first might'a could'a done it.......but he ain't
there.......or anywhere else worth mentioning in the current context, for
that matter.

OF COURSE once it hit the city had no power to do anything.

City? What city?

The federal government can't save everyone from everything.

True enough. It can't, for instance (and despite its valiant efforts in the
past couple of decades), prevent the profligate bestowal of doctoral
degrees.

It can't go off preparing disaster plans for every city in America.

Not as problematic as it might appear at a glance. For example, there is
mounting evidence that several of those cities are NOT below sea level, NOT
in an area frequented by hurricanes, AND (strange but true) NOT built on the
delta of one of the world's greatest rivers. Not conslusive, I'll grant
you, but evidence is what it is.

The people there have to take some responsibility.

Hm......as should university faculty committees? O.k., point taken.

Call in the feds? You bet!

Pointless.......if the evidence (see above) is to be taken into
consideration.

But lay the problem at their feet after you've let the problem go
too far? I don't think so.

Um.......well......I've been awfully busy for the last week or so......what
with planning an invasion and all that.

The sad fact is the mayor will probably get re-elected as the
anchor-in-the-disaster you-tell-those-feds guy.

The sad fact is that people in America get re-elected. Assholes get elected
cuz assholes get to vote.

If there's a city to run...

There are lots of cities to run. But there is little evidence that anyone
has been much interested in doing so since the halcyon (more or less) days
of the Little Flower.

Jon.

Wofgang
well, hell, everybody else is doing it! :(