Mexican Clave, anyone?
 

Jonathan Cook wrote:
Would I rather read of another meth lab bust down here than
read that the problem is being ignored? You bet.

OK so far,

Would I
rather be inconvenienced by having to ask for Sudafed at a
pharmacy counter than having it available in bulk to meth
producers? You bet.

I strongly disgaree with that. "In Bulk" is one thing, a 100 pack is quite
another. FWIW I can buy 100 packs of pseudoephedrine on-line - and the
vendor is smart enough to limit me to 2 bottles at a time. I figure a store
that runs on a computer based scanner equipped register system, that uses
the little RFID tags in the boxes to discourage shoplifting, can likewise
limit purchases easily to a bottle or two. My problem is that I have to ask
at the pharmacist counter - and he goes home at 8PM. If I get an allergy
attack and have serious congestion after 8, well, that sucks for me, doesn't
it. This has happened to me *twice* this year so far.

Here's a partial ingredient list for a meth recipe:
# 1 Bottle of Rubbing Alchohol.
# 1 Gallon Muriatic Acid ( Used for cleaning concrete)
# 1 Gallon of Coleman's Fuel
# 1 Gallon of Acetone
# 1 Pack of Coffee Filters
# 4 Bottles Iodine Tincture 2% (don't get the declorized it won't work)
# 2 Bottles of Hydrogen peroxide
# 1 Can Red Devils Lye
# 4 Boxes Book Matches (try to get the ones with brown/red striker pads)
# lithium batteries

****, how come none of this is behind the counter? Because that would be
*stupid* and just inconvenience the legitimate users?

And while I'm on a rant, why the **** can't I go into a drugstore and buy
insulin syringes in the wonderful States of Alaska, California, Connecticut,
Delaware, Illinois, Maine, Mass, Nevada, New Hampshire, New York, New
Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island? I'm *not* willing to suffer a little
inconvenience in order to make sure heroin abusers can't get easy access to
clean needles so I'm thinking seriously about moving away from New England.

--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps

Mexican Clave, anyone?
 

"Stan Gula" wrote in message
And while I'm on a rant, why the **** can't I go into a drugstore and buy
insulin syringes in the wonderful States of Alaska, California,
Connecticut,
Delaware, Illinois, Maine, Mass, Nevada, New Hampshire, New York, New
Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island? I'm *not* willing to suffer a little
inconvenience in order to make sure heroin abusers can't get easy access
to
clean needles so I'm thinking seriously about moving away from New
England.

When I first acquired livestock and found that I was actually responsible
for giving them various injections and immunizations, I was a bit surprised
to find I could simply purchase all the sterile syringes I wanted from the
farm supply store (not to mention various antibiotics & other stuff I'd need
a prescription for if it was for a human.)

Joe F.

Mexican Clave, anyone?
 

"rb608" wrote in message
news:XGx6g.15045$O_6.6288@trnddc08...
"Stan Gula" wrote in message
And while I'm on a rant, why the **** can't I go into a drugstore and buy
insulin syringes in the wonderful States of Alaska, California,
Connecticut,
Delaware, Illinois, Maine, Mass, Nevada, New Hampshire, New York, New
Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island? I'm *not* willing to suffer a little
inconvenience in order to make sure heroin abusers can't get easy access
to
clean needles so I'm thinking seriously about moving away from New
England.

When I first acquired livestock and found that I was actually responsible
for giving them various injections and immunizations, I was a bit
surprised to find I could simply purchase all the sterile syringes I
wanted from the farm supply store (not to mention various antibiotics &
other stuff I'd need a prescription for if it was for a human.)

Meanwhile, what is quite possibly the largest drug cartel in the world
(Coca-Cola and PepsiCo combined) does a brisk business in your children's
schools......with the blessings (and financial support) of the school
district, local, state, and national governments, and (MUCH more often than
not) parents. :)

Wolfgang

Mexican Clave, anyone?
 

Jonathan Cook wrote:

Conan The Librarian wrote:

You're not familiar with the phrase "War on Drugs"?

Familiarity implies knowing what it means? That's another
assumption. And I'm still not responsible for those ;-)

Would I rather read of another meth lab bust down here than
read that the problem is being ignored? You bet. Would I
rather be inconvenienced by having to ask for Sudafed at a
pharmacy counter than having it available in bulk to meth
producers? You bet. I can't watch Frontline on PBS and conclude
that society would benefit by allowing people a free choice
to legally make and use meth if they want to.

Errr ... did you realize that the reason these drug labs spring up
is because the drug is illegal in the first place?

I use "War on (Some) Drugs" to more accurately describe what it is.
Alcohol, tobacco, other chemicals aren't included even though their
effects are at least as bad as some of the ones that are currently illegal.

I suspected that's what you meant by "some" but I still don't
know what all is meant by a "war" on drugs. Do we shoot on sight
any drug we come across? (Yes I'm being ridiculous but the
phrase under question is so broad I find it impossible to declare
that I support it or don't support it.)

Then you should talk to the government entities who came up with the
ridiculous phrase in the first place. One thing is certain: This
so-called war has created whole "criminal" class of people who are
jailed for nothing more than choosing recreational drugs that aren't in
favor with the government.

I am in favor of keeping illegal drugs illegal.

And I am in favor of stopping throwing money at a failed program
that is doomed by its very nature.

I don't see how our two statements are opposed to each other.
I'm all for abandoning expensive, ineffective programs...

Then you should be in favor of legalizing drugs.

So how successful do you think Prohibition was? What sort of
problems do you see associated with it? Would you be in favor of
re-instituting it?


Chuck Vance

Mexican Clave, anyone?
 

On 5/4/06 11:33 AM, in article , "Conan The
Librarian" wrote:

it's just about what the word
irony means.

Uh oh. I'm staying the heck out of this one... :-(

Bill

Mexican Clave, anyone?
 

"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
...
Wolfgang wrote:

[something]

OBROFF: rise, drift with the current, inspecting what is
floating by, refuse it as a poorly tied imitation. You must
be borrowing flies from Tom ;-)

Must be nice to live in a world in which it is sufficient to pretend to give
a **** about one thing or another every once in a while.

Wolfgang

Mexican Clave, anyone?
 

Jonathan Cook wrote:

Conan The Librarian wrote:

Errr ... did you realize that the reason these drug labs spring up
is because the drug is illegal in the first place?

So if it is legal, no one will be making it?

Some will probably still make it, just like I suppose some folks
still make moonshine. But, I suspect that most users would be more than
happy to buy the stuff over-the-counter, thus eliminating much of the
black market.

Less demand, less profitability = fewer meth labs.

IMO (yes, IMO), society would be absolutely irresponsible if
it made legal a substance that spikes brain dopamine levels
10 times what an orgasm does, that destroys the brain, rots your
skin and teeth, and I'm sure a bunch of other side effects.

I have to admit to mixed emotions about the legalization of meth in
particular, as I think it's a horrible drug. But, to be consistent, I
would have to advocate for its legalization too.

I guess if I was the Drug Czar (gawd what is it with the stupid
terminology associated with this stuff?), I'd propose a series of
smaller steps, like legalizing natural drugs like pot, peyote and
psilocybin first. See how things go with those, and then move on to
other drugs.

Then you should talk to the government entities who came up with the
ridiculous phrase in the first place.

Umm, I'm not the one who brought it up.

Well, no, and I didn't say you did. I use the phrase the War on
Drugs because it has been the standard phrase used by the various
government entities involved in legislating against drugs.

jailed for nothing more than choosing recreational drugs that aren't in
favor with the government.

IMO (yes, IMO), just because society has made a choice to make
some substances legal that can be abused in the "recreational drug"
style, it doesn't follow that society is best served by then
making all such substances legal.

And plenty of drug users are in jail for other crimes, such as
theft, that they commit as a consequence of their addiction. I
don't see such effects diminishing if the drugs are legal, and I'm
sure you're not going to then propose that theft be made legal.
(No I don't believe that making a drug legal will suddenly mean
that people stick within their budget to buy it.)

But it would drive the prices down, which would go a long way
towards eliminating the black market that exists. That black market
puts otherwise law-abiding citizens in contact with folks who may really
be criminals (the ones who are hoping to capitalize on illegal
substances).

Yes, some folks will still spend beyond their means, and commit
crimes to support their habits. But I believe the vast majority will
simply stop at the local drugstore on the way home and pick up a pack of
Panama Reds as part of their regular recreational budget.

Again, using that shining example of government stupidity,
Prohibition, the very act of arbitrarily outlawing a substance that
millions use for recreation creates a whole underworld of related crime
that is eliminated when the black market is gone.

Then there's the matter of the likelihood of getting black market
drugs that have been adulterated with who-knows-what in an effort to
maximize profits for the dealer.

I'm all for abandoning expensive, ineffective programs...

Then you should be in favor of legalizing drugs.

Sorry, but we just see differently on that. I don't see at all
why your statement logically follows mine. You are free to believe
it.

So you don't think the money currently spent to send folks to jail
for recreational drug use (and the associated bureaucracy) is wasteful?
You don't think that money could be better spent on jailing people who
are killing, stealing and such?

I make no apologies for not being a libertarian. I am not. I
believe individuals have rights and I believe they also have
responsiblities to society, and I believe society has responsibilities
to individuals as well. I don't believe humans as a whole are
well equiped to make responsible choices when confronted with a
drug such as meth -- I include myself in there, I can honestly
say that but for the grace of God there go I -- and I believe
society is not well served by making such drugs legal. You are
free to believe differently.

I don't classify myself as a libertarian, though there are some
areas where I agree with them. I respect your opinion, but I guess I
have a little more faith in people's abilities to make choices for
themselves.

Or put another way, if they're stupid enough to ruin their lives
with [insert *any* self-destructive behavior here], I don't see how it's
the government's business to try to prevent them from doing that.
*Educate* them on the potential dangers, and do so in a rational way,
rather than the current scare tactics approach.

Yes I understand the societyal hypocrisy with alcohol. But I
disagree that it is as strong as some believe. Plenty of
alcoholic beverages are consumed not for the purpose of altering
one's mental state but simply for the taste. That is not true
of other drugs. Illegal drugs have _one_ purpose. And frankly,
yes, I think distilled alcohol was a technological innovation
that stretched the bounds of human ability for responsible
choices. Fermented drink has been around for thousands of years
and while yes it can be abused it also has been very useful in
supplying potable drinking supplies. But now we are so advanced
we can create drugs that are way beyond any form of alcohol in
terms of its physical effect. We humans are too frail to be faced
with such drugs every time we walk down an aisle in Walgreens...

Again, I guess I have more faith in human nature than you. We make
choices every day about what to do and what not to do. It's all part of
being a responsible human being. I just don't believe it's the
goverment's job to do it for us, and I'm tired of seeing money thrown at
something that *creates* crminals out of otherwise law-abiding citizens.


Chuck Vance

Mexican Clave, anyone?
 

"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
...
Conan The Librarian wrote:

Errr ... did you realize that the reason these drug labs spring up
is because the drug is illegal in the first place?

So if it is legal, no one will be making it?

Yeah, just like beer.

IMO (yes, IMO), society would be absolutely irresponsible if
it made legal a substance that spikes brain dopamine levels
10 times what an orgasm does, that destroys the brain, rots your
skin and teeth, and I'm sure a bunch of other side effects.

A modern post-industrial society cannot stop (or even seriously dent)
illegal drug use. It CAN exercise some degree of control over substances
that are produced and distributed legally. It enjoys no such control over
proscribed substances. It must choose whether it will go one way or the
other. We see the consequences of choosing to abdicate control.

Then you should talk to the government entities who came up with the
ridiculous phrase in the first place.

Umm, I'm not the one who brought it up.

jailed for nothing more than choosing recreational drugs that aren't in
favor with the government.

IMO (yes, IMO), just because society has made a choice to make
some substances legal that can be abused in the "recreational drug"
style, it doesn't follow that society is best served by then
making all such substances legal.

Illegality is not a natural default state. Societies choose whether or not
to make something illegal.

And plenty of drug users are in jail for other crimes, such as
theft, that they commit as a consequence of their addiction. I
don't see such effects diminishing if the drugs are legal, and I'm
sure you're not going to then propose that theft be made legal.
(No I don't believe that making a drug legal will suddenly mean
that people stick within their budget to buy it.)

At the moment, very few people need to resort to theft in order to get their
next fix of caffeine. Make caffeine illegal and watch what happens to the
price.

I'm all for abandoning expensive, ineffective programs...

Then you should be in favor of legalizing drugs.

Sorry, but we just see differently on that. I don't see at all
why your statement logically follows mine. You are free to believe
it.

I make no apologies for not being a libertarian.

See, there's your problem. You live in a world filled with buzz-words,
catch phrases, canned opinions, facile labels, glib half-truths and
thoughtless action.

What the hell do libertarians (or any other flavor or nitwits, for that
matter) have to do with any of this?

Does thinking cause you actual physical pain.....or is it just a vague sort
of queasiness? In either case, there are drugs that will help.

I am not. I
believe individuals have rights and I believe they also have
responsiblities to society, and I believe society has responsibilities
to individuals as well.

Examine the evidence. Do it honestly, and you will find that you really
don't believe any of that **** at all.

I don't believe humans as a whole are
well equiped to make responsible choices when confronted with a
drug such as meth -- I include myself in there, I can honestly
say that but for the grace of God there go I -- and I believe
society is not well served by making such drugs legal.

One can hardly argue with you assessment of your own deficiencies, but that
leaves one with a natural skepticism concerning your ability to judge others
correctly.

You are free to believe differently.

We would quite possibly have guessed that eventually.

Yes I understand the societyal hypocrisy with alcohol. But I
disagree that it is as strong as some believe. Plenty of
alcoholic beverages are consumed not for the purpose of altering
one's mental state but simply for the taste.

Horse****, pure and simple.

That is not true
of other drugs. Illegal drugs have _one_ purpose.

Again, as wrong as it could possibly be. All recreational drugs have
multiple purposes. Not that it makes any difference. Fetching a buzz needs
no justification.

And frankly,
yes, I think distilled alcohol was a technological innovation
that stretched the bounds of human ability for responsible
choices.

Abject nonsense. I have it on good authority that "Plenty of alcoholic
beverages are consumed not for the purpose of altering one's mental state
but simply for the taste." What's irresponsible about taste?

Fermented drink has been around for thousands of years
and while yes it can be abused it also has been very useful in
supplying potable drinking supplies.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz.

But now we are so advanced
we can create drugs that are way beyond any form of alcohol in
terms of its physical effect.

Bull****. Ethanol is an extremely potent intoxicant. Any drug can be used
responsibly. Any drug can be abused. Alcohol has always been.....and
continues to be.....responsible for more crime and other irresponsible
behavior than all others combined.

We humans are too frail to be faced
with such drugs every time we walk down an aisle in Walgreens...

You should meet more humans.

Wolfgang

Mexican Clave, anyone?
 

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

Must be nice to live in a world in which it is sufficient to pretend to
give a **** about one thing or another every once in a while.

Wolfgang


Irony meter

\..............!/

Mexican Clave, anyone?
 

"Tom Littleton" wrote in message
news:aQb6g.13715$Un3.4781@trnddc05...

"Stan Gula" wrote in message

half a gram of
coke, a couple of Ecstasy pills, several doses of LSD, a few marijuana
joints, a spoonful of heroin, 5 grams of opium and more than 2 pounds of
peyote, the hallucinogenic cactus."

Almost enough for a 4 hour Dead concert back in the day.
--
Stan Gula

a little light on the weed, but the 2 lbs of peyote might make one forget
the oversight........
Tom


****, if thats buttons that would equal at least a small herd of the White
Totonka, or so Im told.

Dave