Fore!
 

wrote:
Willi wrote:
wrote:
Willi wrote:

wrote:

Wet golf with living biological golf balls has officially come to
colorado. Needless to say I'l not be sending my dues to the Colorado
Troutmasters or was that Tournaments Unlimited this year.

How any organization can simultaneously promote flyfishing competition
while pretending to understand the word "wild" (and even emblazen this
word on license plate bling) is entirely beyond my capacity to
understand. There are so many things wrong with this it's not even
funny. I wonder how they would feel about paint ball hunting deer? I'd
sure like to have a conversation with someone trying to explain the
difference to me.

http://www.nationalflyfishingchampio...ion_rules.html

Which is in direct conflict with the rules of fishing in Colorado which
prohibit contests on moving water (see paragraph 8).

http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...shbrochure.pdf

Eventually all things merge in to one and a golf match runs through it.


TBone



Fishing contests like this are CLEARLY in violation of the 2006 Colorado
DOW regulations. I emailed several people at Colorado TU, and the
Colorado DOW. I'll be interested to see what, if any, response I get.

PS How's the competition Bass fishing going Tim? Got any holes in one?

Willi


FWIW - I talked with a gentleman today who was fishing the Platte
during the contest. In the morning he was told by one judge that there
would be a contest but who was otherwise polite but pretty much told
them to scat. Later on as more judges arrived they became more and more
rude. They were surly and intimidating. The regulation is also clear on
this...on still waters, where approval for a contest has been granted,
fishing MUST stay open to the public during the contest.

Next year I'm rocking the ****ers.

TBone



"I appreciate your concerns, and will try to respond briefly to them.

First, with regard to fishing regulations, the actual DOW regulations
limit fishing contests using marked/tagged fish; we coordinated with DOW
to ensure that the National Fly Fishing Championships were consistent
with their regulations and indeed had DOW represented on the event
steering committee to ensure communication and compliance. The event
was strictly catch-and-release, and public anglers were not excluded
from the areas used (all of the areas we used for venues had that as a
requirement). The event did not violate any DOW regulations.

[bone] Well, I'd have to disagree. Public anglers that went there to
catch a few trout in what relative solitude they can find were
'practically' excluded by this event. That the CDOW supports this now
is a pretty dramatic shift in policy. That the 'real' regs aren't
printed just ****ES ME OFF. As far as I'm concerned, if we don't give a
rip about the accuracy of the regs, the statewide bag and possession
limit is still 8.

The more general question - why would TU be involved in this - the
answer is three-fold. First, is educational value. The event provided
a forum from which we could build greater awareness about fly fishing
and conservation.

[bone] This is the worst point. To use a competitive event, with the
likes of Jack "A cash flow runs through it and Jackson Hole flyfishing
retailer" Dennis, as anything resembling the intrinsic soul of
flyfishing is not an education I want conducted on public waters. They
can hold this thing on a private pond if they want.

For example, as part of the competition we had
stringent gear-cleaning protocols in place to ensure that exotic species
like mud snails and whirling disease were not spread; this was included

[bone] BFD. It's the law.

in some print and TV coverage of the event and will help raise angler
awareness about what they as individuals can do to follow this example.

[bone] It will also bring more people transferring more mud snails.

The event also included a Conservation Symposium with displays and
speakers from various agencies, conservation groups, etc. - creating a
platform for public education on those issues.

[bone] You do not need a fishing competition as a draw. Just get some
chicks in daisy duke shorts and Dale Jr. jerseys.

Second, is volunteer recruitment.

[bone] Seems like these guys have a problem at HQ. This is a simple
marketing program that does not need to be paid for by making a slut
out of the noble pastime of hunting for fish.

The event drew in around 100 volunteers, many of whom had
not been active volunteers in the past but plan to be involved in the
future. Third, is fundraising. While this year's event will have a
very modest net, it has the potential to raise significant dollars for
conservation. For example, the Jackson Hole One-Fly event raises
$300,000 per year for conservation, and while we aren't expecting to
reach that level we should be able to raise significant dollars for
conservation.

[bone] Be real. The revenue from the flyfishing industry is huge. The
sales tax from the town of Basalt rivals the ski town of Snowmass
Village. See how many of these guys will drive down next weekend just
to hand out pamphlets.

The participants in this event were class individuals with a real
dedication to fly fishing and to conservation. It was an amateur,
Olympic-style event with no money on the line, only pride and the
opportunity to represent the U.S. at the World Championships later this
summer. If your concept of competitive fishing is based on what you see
with things like professional bass fishing, this event is nothing like
that.

[bone] Oh, it has plenty of similarities. Do you really think that you
are 'superior' to the bass sportsman? That kind of grosses me out.

Certainly events like this aren't for everyone, but it is not
contrary to our mission for conserving, protecting, and restoring
Colorado's trout habitats.

[bone] Respectfully disagree. Teaching people that fishing for a living
animal competively is at about the same moral high ground as competive
paint ball hunting for deer.

I hope this helps answer some of your questions, and thank you for
taking the time to write."

[bone] Well, the response you got was better than mine!

I re wrote him quoting the following part of the regs from printed
version we get with our licenses and the downloadable one from the DOW
website.:

"Fishing contests not permitted on streams, rivers, other flowing water
or Gold Medal Water. Contests for trout are permitted only on waters
with more than 200 surface acres and managed as a catchable fishery. All
regulations apply. Public fishing areas must stay open to free public
fishing regardless of contest fee or other charges. Commercial and
private lakes licensed by DOW are exempt."

This is part of what one guy from CO TU emailed me back:

"On the regulations - the description in the regulations brochure does
not match the actual regulations themselves (see DOW website:
http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...390/0/Ch01.pdf)

-the actual regulation adopted by the Colorado Wildlife Commission reads:"

So the webpage he sent me has regs concerning contests that are
different from what was published in our printed regs and the
downloadable one on their website! Note the date it was changed,
probably close to when they applied.

[bone] Nope. The minute I read this, I recall that this is what I was
told when I moaned about the Lyons event either a year ago or two.

Still sucks though.

I also wrote to the members of the Wildlife Commission.

Willi

This is the letter I wrote to the division. Comments? I'll let you know
the response, if any.

Bone

Dear Sir,

I complained to the division 3 years ago about a competitive flyfishing
event on the St. Vrain near the town of Lyons being in direct violation
of section 8 of the colorado fishing regulations. At that time, I was
told that there was a discrepency between the 'real' regulations and
the 'printed' version.

Just recently I complained about the International Fly Fishing
competition on the So. Platte and was told the exact same thing.

Since I view the regulations as the law and now I am told that they are
not, please understand that, as far as I'm concerned the state wide bag
limit is 20 trout and the regulations are printed in error.

Is this an OK assumption or can you tell me why you maintain two
different sets of regulations?

Thank you,

Fore!
 

wrote:


This is the letter I wrote to the division. Comments? I'll let you know
the response, if any.

Bone

Dear Sir,

I complained to the division 3 years ago about a competitive flyfishing
event on the St. Vrain near the town of Lyons being in direct violation
of section 8 of the colorado fishing regulations. At that time, I was
told that there was a discrepency between the 'real' regulations and
the 'printed' version.

Just recently I complained about the International Fly Fishing
competition on the So. Platte and was told the exact same thing.

Since I view the regulations as the law and now I am told that they are
not, please understand that, as far as I'm concerned the state wide bag
limit is 20 trout and the regulations are printed in error.

Is this an OK assumption or can you tell me why you maintain two
different sets of regulations?

Thank you,

Well, there, that should fix everything.

Wolfgang

Fore!
 

Wolfgang wrote:
wrote:


This is the letter I wrote to the division. Comments? I'll let you know
the response, if any.

Bone

Dear Sir,

I complained to the division 3 years ago about a competitive flyfishing
event on the St. Vrain near the town of Lyons being in direct violation
of section 8 of the colorado fishing regulations. At that time, I was
told that there was a discrepency between the 'real' regulations and
the 'printed' version.

Just recently I complained about the International Fly Fishing
competition on the So. Platte and was told the exact same thing.

Since I view the regulations as the law and now I am told that they are
not, please understand that, as far as I'm concerned the state wide bag
limit is 20 trout and the regulations are printed in error.

Is this an OK assumption or can you tell me why you maintain two
different sets of regulations?

Thank you,

Well, there, that should fix everything.

Wolfgang

Mr. Seibeneich,

I noticed that you spend a great deal of your time making smart assed
replies to most everyone's posts relating to fly fishing and that I can
not find a single non-smart assed reply from you in dozens and dozens
of recent entries. You seem to make claims to being a very literate
person and sophisticated author of smart assed replies but I'm curious
if you can organize your thoughts in a coherent fashion as to actually
'contribute' to a debate or discussion on subjects related to this
group.

Therefore I would like to ask a sincere question: Will you please post
your rationale on the differences between competitive fly fishing as a
way to promote angler education and competitive paint ball hunting for
deer to teach hunters the ethics of that sport, or, perhaps you could
wax eloquently on why it is important for the regulations printed in a
state fishing regulation to accurately reflect the laws of the
controlling division.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply,

Your pal,

Halfordian Golfer
A Cash Flow Runs Through It

Fore!
 

In article .com,
says...

Therefore I would like to ask a sincere question: Will you please post
your rationale on the differences between competitive fly fishing as a
way to promote angler education and competitive paint ball hunting for
deer to teach hunters the ethics of that sport, or, perhaps you could
wax eloquently on why it is important for the regulations printed in a
state fishing regulation to accurately reflect the laws of the
controlling division.

Oh oh, dibs on the paint ball hunting for deer.

I love catch-n-release hunting for deer (actually I prefer
elk, but why quibble). It's a great why to appreciate
nature and improve your stalking skills without getting
blood on my luxury SUV leather seats. Sure it scares the
crap out of them, but that's better than getting a hook...
err I mean bullet between their cute little furry ears.

Welcome back princess. ;-)
- Ken

Fore!
 

wrote:

Mr. Seibeneich,

I noticed that you spend a great deal of your time making smart assed
replies to most everyone's posts relating to fly fishing and that I can
not find a single non-smart assed reply from you in dozens and dozens
of recent entries. You seem to make claims to being a very literate
person and sophisticated author of smart assed replies but I'm curious
if you can organize your thoughts in a coherent fashion as to actually
'contribute' to a debate or discussion on subjects related to this
group.

Therefore I would like to ask a sincere question: Will you please post
your rationale on the differences between competitive fly fishing as a
way to promote angler education and competitive paint ball hunting for
deer to teach hunters the ethics of that sport, or, perhaps you could
wax eloquently on why it is important for the regulations printed in a
state fishing regulation to accurately reflect the laws of the
controlling division.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply,

Your pal,

Halfordian Golfer
A Cash Flow Runs Through It

You misspelled Siebeneich. And you're going to have to learn to do
your one trick MUCH better if you really want me to take you seriously.
In fact, you're going to have to go a great deal further than
that......you're going to have to behave like a sane adult.

Good luck, Bozo.

Wolfgang

Fore!
 

On 14 Jun 2006 19:44:24 -0700, wrote:
[snipped]

In TU's response to Willi, the author, in justification for a
competitive fly fishing competition said, and I quote:

"The event provided a forum from which we could build greater awareness
about fly fishing and conservation. For example, as part of the
competition we had stringent gear-cleaning protocols in place to ensure
that exotic species like mud snails and whirling disease were not
spread;"

Yet the organizers of this event decided the best place to hold it
would be in Boulder Colorado:

http://www.nationalflyfishingchampio...modations.html

Ironically, Boulder Colorado is one of the few places where there is a
NZ mud snail closure in Colorado.

http://www.anstaskforce.gov/hyannis/...Draft_4-06.pdf

In fact, the Boulder Outlook Hotel is a 7 minute drive from the only
enforced fishing closure in Colorado:

http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...ulderCreek.pdf

Then, from that 'base camp' the fishermen went off to the So. Platte,
Waterton, Clear Lake, the Big Thompson and finally Lily Lake in Rocky
Mountain National Park.

Let that sink in a minute. Imagine organizing a flyfishing event aimed
at the education of people for the purpose of preventing the spreading
a pathogen, right in the center of the worst area of the infestation
and then having them travel to pristine, unaffected, waters.

Further, when I asked TU about this I received a terse response, and I
quote:

"You are so poorly informed about this activity a response is not worth
my time. Since the DOW, USFS, and numerious public and private
conservation groups were actively involved and supported this activity
your complaint will not get too far."

I might be picking nits, but this response, from a national
conservation organization, suggesting that someone is 'too misinformed
to be worthy of informing' seems hardly in keeping with an 'education'
ideal of that organization. Lest you think this is the reponse of a
harassing or accusational tone on my part, I present it below my
signature, which is,

Your pal,

Halfordian Golfer
"It is impossible to catch and release a wild trout"

Dear Sir,

It came to my attention that your organization is promoting competetive
fishing on moving waters in the state of Colorado where this is
expressly prohibited. In addition to being morally repugnant this is in
clear violation of standards for harassment of wildlife as well as
willful wasting of game meat as some percentage of mortality is
inevitible. I'd like to understand your position on this so that I can
act accordingly. I have already registered a stern complaint with the
CDOW. If you assume the position that this is 'educational' then I have
to ask what is being taught? Unlimited pure catch and release is as
greedy as the worst poacher in my estimation and closer to a 'trophy'
hunting model than the angler that catches a brace to consume but then
quits. I am old enough to remember when the quality of the angling
experience had to do with fishing in solitude for a wild animal and was
not measured by social rewards and crowds on a stream.

Sincerely,

[deleted]


Not that it matters much, but I totally agree with you on this one, Tim.

/daytripper

Fore!
 

On 14 Jun 2006 19:44:24 -0700, wrote:


Further, when I asked TU

You (and Willi) seem to naively assume that TU (nationals) is now
anything more than a bunch of fundraising whores currently spreading
their legs for Troutbucks. What they once were is long lost, and while
a few local chapters might actually _do_ something, TU as a national
organization is no better than the NRA, the Red Cross, or any other
for-profit business run under the guise of a non-profit group, and done
so without the expenses, such as taxes, and headaches of other
businesses. Why anyone supports or cares about the ****ers is less of a
mystery as much as a source of sad bemusement, and can be attributed to
little more what those supporters imagine is the cache of having a
silly-assed sticker on their silly-assed yuppiemobile. If you actually
support _real_ conservation, as opposed to self-centered "conservation,"
you are at odds with TU nationals.

HTH,
R

Fore!
 

wrote in message
...

Why anyone supports or cares about the ****ers is less of a
mystery as much as a source of sad bemusement, and can be attributed to
little more what those supporters imagine is the cache of having a
silly-assed sticker on their silly-assed yuppiemobile. If you actually
support _real_ conservation, as opposed to self-centered "conservation,"
you are at odds with TU nationals.

You're entitled to your opinion. While I agree that some things like the
issue Tim is disdaining are rather, to be polite-foolish; TU as a whole is
promoting and funding signficant research, habitat protection, and
attempting to help find consensus amond disparate groups to further
conservation causes as they apply to fresh cold water salmonid species.

I used to wonder where Tim's disdain for TU came from until I came across
some Colorado TU groups. I'll admit to them feeding a bad caricature IMO.
But until something better comes along thats the national group trout
fisherman to work with.

Besides I happen to like my TU sticker and License plate frame on my yuppie
mobile.

Wayne
How come when a TU member drives it, its a yuppiemobile, when you drive it,
its a suburban btw?

Fore!
 

Fore!
 

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:57:19 -0400, "Wayne Knight"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .

Why anyone supports or cares about the ****ers is less of a
mystery as much as a source of sad bemusement, and can be attributed to
little more what those supporters imagine is the cache of having a
silly-assed sticker on their silly-assed yuppiemobile. If you actually
support _real_ conservation, as opposed to self-centered "conservation,"
you are at odds with TU nationals.

You're entitled to your opinion. While I agree that some things like the
issue Tim is disdaining are rather, to be polite-foolish; TU as a whole is
promoting and funding signficant research, habitat protection, and
attempting to help find consensus amond disparate groups to further
conservation causes as they apply to fresh cold water salmonid species.

If they are so wonderful, why do they get a pass when they are taking a
dump on Colorado, its regs, and the people who supposedly own the land?
"TU as a whole?" Please. TU IS a hole.

I used to wonder where Tim's disdain for TU came from until I came across
some Colorado TU groups. I'll admit to them feeding a bad caricature IMO.
But until something better comes along thats the national group trout
fisherman to work with.

If the water is in some form of danger, it ought to be closed to fishing
and other forms of public access. TU wants to "conserve" for its own
interests, just like the NRA wants to support gun rights for its own
interests. The largest TU chapter in US is (or was) in
Austin-****in-Texas, long known and respected as a premiere trout
fishing destination. And yeah, before anyone goes there, they do dump
truckloads of trout into the Guadalupe, but that don't make it a trout
stream...the Peabodys have ducks, but AFAIK, no DU chapters...

Besides I happen to like my TU sticker and License plate frame on my yuppie
mobile.

Wayne
How come when a TU member drives it, its a yuppiemobile, when you drive it,
its a suburban btw?

I use Suburbans, trucks, and such for their utility value alone, I don't
"drive" one as a car, and none has a bumper sticker pimping anything,
nor do I trade them in on new models every coupla-three years. Ever
tried to pull and launch a large boat, pull a cargo/cattle/horse
trailer, or haul a flatbed loaded with a tractor down a wet dirt road,
or similar with a Prius or whatever the ecoyuppiemobiles are called?

TC,
R