1001 U.P. Black Fly Questions
 

Scott Seidman wrote:
"Tom Nakashima" wrote in
:


"Scott Seidman" wrote in message
.4...
wrote in news:1150736918.703332.76190
@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

For black flies, I tend not to count on any of the repellants. Even
with the repellents, things can get pretty darn miserable. I travel
with a headnet, just in case, and if I knew I was heading into
trouble, I'd pick up one of those bug jackets, and maybe even bring a
lightweight cotton glove or something.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Scott,
Is that just with black flies or all flies, including mosquitoes?
Is there something about bug repellants that you know of that isn't
given in the MSDS data?
Reason for asking I'll be in Alaska the first two weeks of July.
-tom



Nothing really beyond the ken, but black flies seem to be able to simply
ignore repellents when they want to, and then life can get real miserable
real fast. See http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2167.html and look
at the prevention section.

I know you like traveling ultra light, but if the area you're heading
into has a reputation of black fly activity in early July, you might want
to pick up a head net. If the flys are really bad, buy more than one,
and gouge your travel companions on the price! You might also do up your
travel clothes with Permethrin-- that's most conveniently done in
advance. I've had some success with treating a bandana with Permethrin
and wearing around my neck. Wrist bands might help too. One treatment
lasts about two weeks-- longer if you keep it in a plastic baggy.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Of course you are aware that Permethrin is a rather potent nerotoxin
right? Google it and be afraid, be very afraid. :-)

vis. *...
The insecticide permethrin (in the synthetic pyrethroid family) is
widely used on cotton, wheat, corn, alfalfa, and other crops. In
addition, over 100 million applications are made annually in and around
U.S. homes.

Permethrin, like all synthetic pyrethroids, is a neurotoxin. Symptoms
include tremors, incoordination, elevated body temperature, increased
aggressive behavior, and disruption of learning. Laboratory tests
suggest that permethrin is more acutely toxic to children than to
adults. ...*

david N.

1001 U.P. Black Fly Questions
 

David wrote:

Of course you are aware that Permethrin is a rather potent nerotoxin
right? Google it and be afraid, be very afraid. :-)

vis. *...
The insecticide permethrin (in the synthetic pyrethroid family) is
widely used on cotton, wheat, corn, alfalfa, and other crops. In
addition, over 100 million applications are made annually in and around
U.S. homes.

Permethrin, like all synthetic pyrethroids, is a neurotoxin. Symptoms
include tremors, incoordination, elevated body temperature, increased
aggressive behavior, and disruption of learning. Laboratory tests
suggest that permethrin is more acutely toxic to children than to
adults. ...*

david N.


Actually, permethrin is generally considered a relatively low toxicity
insecticide. It has pretty low toxicity both through oral and dermal
routes. You would have to have an awful lot applied to you before you
showed any symptoms. Mammals can metabolize it pretty rapidly. It is
registered and safe to use on a variety of mammals. It can have
detrimental effects in aquatic systems, however. See the fact sheet at

http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/permethr.htm

Tim Lysyk

1001 U.P. Black Fly Questions
 

Charlie Choc wrote:
On 19 Jun 2006 20:42:01 GMT, Scott Seidman wrote:


I've had some success with treating a bandana with Permethrin
and wearing around my neck. Wrist bands might help too. One treatment
lasts about two weeks-- longer if you keep it in a plastic baggy.


I treat my hats, and that seems to help some as well.

Has anyone had experience with the Orvis (or any brand) "Bug-off
jackets? I always carry a headnet in my tackle bag but am reluctant to
spend the bucks on the jacket.

Frank Sr.
....so far, bug free this year

1001 U.P. Black Fly Questions
 

"Daniel-San" wrote in
.com:

I tried Picaridin
(Cutter Advanced) last year on a moderatly skeeter/fly infested trip,
but frankly, was not all that impressed with it.


I had a good time with it, but I was using Cutter Advanced Sport, which is
higher concentration.


--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

1001 U.P. Black Fly Questions
 

"David" wrote in news:1150766614.261306.12340
@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Permethrin, like all synthetic pyrethroids, is a neurotoxin.

Its fine when used as directed as an insect repellent. In this mode,
permethrin is applied to clothing and allowed to dry before wearing it.
--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

1001 U.P. Black Fly Questions
 

Scott Seidman wrote:
"David" wrote in news:1150766614.261306.12340
@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Permethrin, like all synthetic pyrethroids, is a neurotoxin.

Its fine when used as directed as an insect repellent. In this mode,
permethrin is applied to clothing and allowed to dry before wearing it.
--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

I know sorta but it is still a neurotoxin and it's not recommended for
use on small children, pregnent or lactating women. Now I'm none of the
preceding but it is still a neurotoxin bub :-) DEET works for me on
black flies w/nets etc, chiggers, and the other biting insects w/ the
only side effect that it's not good on your plastic worms. shrug From
my experience Permethrin is not as effective as DEET.

Tom try this experiment while in the U.P: use DEET on one side of your
body arms hands face etc and that other stuff on the other. Report
back please.

david N.

1001 U.P. Black Fly Questions
 

"David" wrote in news:1150834962.086062.80580
@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

I know sorta but it is still a neurotoxin and it's not recommended for
use on small children, pregnent or lactating women


Permethrin is used on hundreds of children every day to kill lice, and as
a directly applied liquid solution. I suspect BuzzOff is some kind of
bound permethrin-- actually, having checked the EPA registration they
boast about I *know* buzzoff is permethrin, but still have no clue as to
any special binding or carrier. BuzzOff has a children's line. The CDC
*recommends* permethrin for childrens' clothing

http://www.cdc.gov/NCIDOD/DVBID/west..._repellent.htm

From the same page
"Q. Can insect repellents be used by pregnant or nursing women?
A. Other than the routine precautions noted earlier, EPA does not
recommend any additional precautions for using registered repellents on
pregnant or lactating women. Consult your health care provider if you
have questions."

--so at least the CDC says the EPA says that permethrin (as is any
registered repellent) is OK for use on children, as well as pregnant and
lactating women, when used as directed.

From the EPA: "Pyrethroids can be used for public health mosquito control
programs without posing unreasonable risks to human health when applied
according to the label. Pyrethroids are considered to pose slight risks
of acute toxicity to humans, but at high doses, pyrethroids can affect
the nervous system."

Because of huge public health risk from the world's deadliest insect,
there have been tons of studies. There are arguments about the relative
efficacy of DEET vs permethrin, but it is almost universally agreed that
permethrin does a bang-up job of preventing bites through clothes, works
better on ticks, and in conjuction with DEET provides nearly 99.9%
protection from mosquito bites-- much better than DEET alone.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

1001 U.P. Black Fly Questions
 

"David" wrote in message
ps.com...


Tom try this experiment while in the U.P: use DEET on one side of your
body arms hands face etc and that other stuff on the other. Report
back please.
david N.


Think it's already been done:
http://www.geocities.com/snazzyandco/Half_face_boy.jpg
-tom

1001 U.P. Black Fly Questions
 

Thank you all for the responses. Sounds like Permathrin (which I hadn't
even heard of previously) is worth a try, and I'll definitely invest in
a headnet. The daily DEET shower goes without saying I suppose.

Much thanks. I'll report back on what works best and what doesn't.

Justin

1001 U.P. Black Fly Questions
 

wrote in message
ups.com...
I posted some questions here a few years back before my first trip to
the Yoop and got some helpful advice (a grateful tip of the cap to Mr.
Wolfgang) on streams around the Kenton area. Planning a return trip in
a couple weeks and I'm hoping I can score some insights on a different
topic this time: Black flies. Our last trip was in late summer/early
fall, so these pests weren't really an issue. But with the return trip
scheduled for the first week of July, I'm a little worried this time
around.

First, is it completely nuts to fish up there this time of year?

It's completely nuts to fish up there any time of the year. Stay away!


While I'm at it, I'll push my luck with a bonus question as well: Any
Kenton-area streams fish better than others this time of year?

See above comment.

Wisconsin has some nice lakes. Try them instead.

Good luck.