Ah, the light goes on...
 

rw wrote:

The regulation in Alaska is that the bead must be pegged to farther than
two inches above the hook.

All of this moral posturing (on my part and every body else's) may
be beside the point. My memory of casting into school of red salmon
was that it really didn't matter what you had on. With that many
salmon holding themselves head-upstream with their mouths open,
you were going to snag one in the mouth no matter what,
even with a bare hook.

Hunting big rainbows was a lot more fun.

Ah, the light goes on...
 

rw wrote in
m:

Scott Seidman wrote:

I'd have no problem with them if the bead were pegged right at the
hook. Even then, if I guided out of an Alaskan lodge, and the guide
was supposed to provide flies, I'd be very upset if that were the
only fly he had.

The regulation in Alaska is that the bead must be pegged to farther
than two inches above the hook.


.... and I don't understand why that would work any better than pegging it
right at the hook. If there is no difference, then why peg 3" away and not
at the hook, and if there is a difference, why isn't it because you're
lining the fish?

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Ah, the light goes on...
 

Scott Seidman wrote:
... and I don't understand why that would work any better than pegging it
right at the hook. If there is no difference, then why peg 3" away and not
at the hook, and if there is a difference, why isn't it because you're
lining the fish?

Not having even heard of this until a yesterday, I'm certainly no
expert; but given its hype as both mindless and deadly; I've been
trying to imagine the mechanics. I have to assume that if the pegged
bead is right at the hook, both the hook and the bead get spit out at
the same time. With a couple inches of mono in between, I can see the
mono snagging on the fish's teeth, guiding the hook into the outside of
the mouth, giving the illusion of a fair hookup. With more than two or
three inches in between, I'd expect there would be more injurious snags
farther back on the fish's body. No doubt a few fish escape either
way, so it's probably best if they don't receive a deadly, gaping wound
in the process.

Given that anybody using this technique is probably all about the meat,
not the sport, I'm not sure what difference that makes to them; but I
guess it means something to the Alaska wildlife folks.

Joe F.

Ah, the light goes on...
 

Scott Seidman wrote:
rw wrote in
m:


Scott Seidman wrote:

I'd have no problem with them if the bead were pegged right at the
hook. Even then, if I guided out of an Alaskan lodge, and the guide
was supposed to provide flies, I'd be very upset if that were the
only fly he had.

The regulation in Alaska is that the bead must be pegged to farther
than two inches above the hook.



... and I don't understand why that would work any better than pegging it
right at the hook. If there is no difference, then why peg 3" away and not
at the hook, and if there is a difference, why isn't it because you're
lining the fish?


The way i've heard it explained, is, if the bead is pegged away from the
hook, the fish gets hooked on the outside of the mouth. If it's pegged
closer, or on the hook, the bead is more likely to be swallowed, and
deep hook/injure the fish. I personally wouldn't know, because i've
never fished pegged beads....or any other hard plastic imitation.

The debate rages on. One thing to keep in mind. The "legal" way to fish
a pegged bead, shouldn't be lumped into the snaggers methods....but then
again, some think the legal method IS snagging. :-)

brians

Ah, the light goes on...
 

"rb608" wrote in news:1161981299.930650.227850
@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Given that anybody using this technique is probably all about the meat,
not the sport, ...


That's not true. I've spoken with at least three sportsmen locally who had
the method forced down their throats by a guide. One of them stuck to his
guns, and wouldn't fish that way.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Ah, the light goes on...
 

briansfly wrote:
If it's pegged
closer, or on the hook, the bead is more likely to be swallowed, and
deep hook/injure the fish.

Based on my experience w/ Great Lakes salmon, that's unlikely. I've
caught lots of salmon & steelhead on egg patterns tied right on the
hook and never once had a hookup deep in the mouth. On landing the
fish, the fly has always been in the upper or lower jaw. I don't know
how (or why) a salmon eats an egg, but in 12 years of these trips, I've
never caught one that swallowed the fly.

Joe F.

Ah, the light goes on...
 

"rb608" wrote in news:1161982371.414672.185480
@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

briansfly wrote:
If it's pegged
closer, or on the hook, the bead is more likely to be swallowed, and
deep hook/injure the fish.

Based on my experience w/ Great Lakes salmon, that's unlikely. I've
caught lots of salmon & steelhead on egg patterns tied right on the
hook and never once had a hookup deep in the mouth. On landing the
fish, the fly has always been in the upper or lower jaw. I don't know
how (or why) a salmon eats an egg, but in 12 years of these trips, I've
never caught one that swallowed the fly.

Joe F.



I really agree. I haven't had much trouble with deep hookups on migratory
trout or salmon, whether I'm using an egg pattern, big stonefly, or a wet
fly. Can't remember one incident. Some people will even tell you that the
salmon are not eating very much during the spawning run, and are striking
out of aggression.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Ah, the light goes on...
 

Scott Seidman wrote:
rw wrote in
m:


Scott Seidman wrote:

I'd have no problem with them if the bead were pegged right at the
hook. Even then, if I guided out of an Alaskan lodge, and the guide
was supposed to provide flies, I'd be very upset if that were the
only fly he had.

The regulation in Alaska is that the bead must be pegged to farther
than two inches above the hook.



... and I don't understand why that would work any better than pegging it
right at the hook. If there is no difference, then why peg 3" away and not
at the hook, and if there is a difference, why isn't it because you're
lining the fish?

I don't know the rationale for the regulation, but IMO pegging the bead
two inches above the hook is better than pegging it at the hook (or
using a conventional egg pattern). The hook sets are usually on the
outside of the mouth, and there's almost no chance the fish will swallow
the hook. Pegging farther than two inches probably results in more foul
hooks on the body. I've never tried it.

Call it snagging if you want. To me, it's using an imitation of a
natural food source, and it's no more harmful and no different in
principle than nymph fishing.



--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Ah, the light goes on...
 

rw wrote in
m:

Scott Seidman wrote:
rw wrote in
m:


Scott Seidman wrote:

I'd have no problem with them if the bead were pegged right at the
hook. Even then, if I guided out of an Alaskan lodge, and the guide
was supposed to provide flies, I'd be very upset if that were the
only fly he had.

The regulation in Alaska is that the bead must be pegged to farther
than two inches above the hook.



... and I don't understand why that would work any better than
pegging it right at the hook. If there is no difference, then why
peg 3" away and not at the hook, and if there is a difference, why
isn't it because you're lining the fish?

I don't know the rationale for the regulation, but IMO pegging the
bead two inches above the hook is better than pegging it at the hook
(or using a conventional egg pattern). The hook sets are usually on
the outside of the mouth, and there's almost no chance the fish will
swallow the hook. Pegging farther than two inches probably results in
more foul hooks on the body. I've never tried it.

Call it snagging if you want. To me, it's using an imitation of a
natural food source, and it's no more harmful and no different in
principle than nymph fishing.




New York defines "foul hooked" as "not hooked IN (emphasis added) the
mouth". The fish would be considered foul hooked, which means the fish must
be released. I don't think it would be considered snatching in NY, as "not
attracted by any bait or artificial lure" is part of the definition. So, I
don't think you'd get cited in NY for fishing like this. That said, I
think you're lining the fish. That's not against the regs here, but rigs
that are weighted below the hook are not legal on the tribs, specifically
because this is the only way the CO's can enforce no lining. So, the
spirit of the law is no lining, but this specific rig has not been
outlawed.

I don't know if its more harmful than nymph fishing, but its certainly
different in principle. I haven't ever fished a nymph with the intention
of hooking a fish on the outside of the mouth.

Deep hooking aside-- as I don't think I've ever deep hooked a salmon with
any fly-- I just don't see a reason for it, unless it's to make the fish
set the hook himself.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Ah, the light goes on...
 

rb608 wrote:
briansfly wrote:

If it's pegged
closer, or on the hook, the bead is more likely to be swallowed, and
deep hook/injure the fish.


Based on my experience w/ Great Lakes salmon, that's unlikely. I've
caught lots of salmon & steelhead on egg patterns tied right on the
hook and never once had a hookup deep in the mouth. On landing the
fish, the fly has always been in the upper or lower jaw. I don't know
how (or why) a salmon eats an egg, but in 12 years of these trips, I've
never caught one that swallowed the fly.

Joe F.


Since I have no experience with pegged, or other plastic beads(I have
used yarn glo bugs), I have to defer to you, and others I read. Here's
the other side of the argument. They say, in Alaska, deep hooking a fish
on an egg pattern isn't that uncommon. With pegged beads, the fish are
hooked on the outside of the mouth. They're talking about protecting
trout, not salmon.

I guess one can assume, trout in Alaska take egg patterns more readily,
simply because of the amount of eggs they see. One could also assume the
guides up in Alaska like pegging beads, because it's so effective for
their clients. Is it lining, or flossing fish..........I don't really
know. I guess technically you can say yes, but if it really keeps the
mortality rate down on pressured fish.......

brians