Yesterday Afternoon
 

rw wrote in message thlink.net...

If they're gray, why are they called "olives"? THAT'S confusing.

FFmen are nothing if not imaginative and poetic...the wings aren't
blue, either. Who wants to fish with a "grey-winged grey"? :-)

Jon.

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Wayne Harrison wrote:

if you tell him i posted this story, i will have to kill you; unless, of
course, you do, and he gets to me first. and then
anger. he stopped fishing, and yelled over at me, "what in the **** are you
using?" i responded, "oh, just something that my book suggested---haven't
you noticed the paraleptophebias?" he kept that big ol ****eatin grin on
his face all the way across the creek, and was still smiling as he tore my
rod from my hands and gave me his. i just tied on another adams, and we
headed upstream together.


These stories you guys tell of PJ from time to time ARE entertaining. I
especially like how you're able to portray him as such an endearing fellow!

Willi

Yesterday Afternoon
 

rw wrote:
Willi wrote:


My suggestion would be for example: a size 20 gray winged gray bodied
Mayfly.


If they're gray, why are they called "olives"? THAT'S confusing.



Yeah I agree. At least locally most of the bodies are much more gray
than olive. Sometimes they are completely gray and sometimes they have a
bit of olive in them. IMO, (because of the name I think) most
commercially tied flies are too olive in color. If you use the complete
common name, blue wing olives, it gets even more confusing. Some of the
ties for BWO's I've seen actually use blue hackle, blue wings and a
bright olive body. They'll probably catch some fish but don't look
anything like the flies I see.

Willi

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Willi" wrote

I disagree. I think that Latin just needlessly complicates things and
MANY of our aquatic insect species aren't even identified and named.

snip
My suggestion would be for example: a size 20 gray winged gray bodied
Mayfly.


that is a fine suggestion .... it's not the Latin or "science" that I
advocate... it's useful information

When I do know the species involved, I find I like to use the Latin. I'm
sure this is partly "snob", partly because I tend more towards "hatch
matcher" fishing and places when it tends to matter more ( presentation
still most important, of course ) and partly just personal quirk. But,
"callibaetis" ( a bug I fish in many locations Calif to Wyoming ) tells me a
lot more than "size 16 tan mayfly" and in 3 less words G. It tells me
lots about the nymph, dun, and spinner, likely hatch time, and type of
location on the stream, and it tells me that a parachute Adams will likely
work or a hares ear nymph, and it tells me what to try to get more accurate
if those patterns are rejected.

However, of course, if I don't know the species named, or just as
importantly, only know the name for purposes of sounding impressive ( like
computer knowledge ... I can say "bios" and sometimes do to sound cool, but
I don't have a friggin clue what it means ;) and not really anything about
the bug .... then "size 16 olive body dark gray wing" says FAR more than
Ephemerella Madeupus in usable information.

On reflection, I guess that I have to admit that DESCRIPTIONS are likely to
be far more useful for more people, more often, than the Latin. But,
"common names" often suck and "Blue Winged Olive" is one that sucks harder
than most ... since it's used world wide to name many different mayflies,
with very different habits and habitat preferences, a huge range of sizes,
and most of them aren't olive or have blue wings G

I guess in many cases I'm wrong about common names too ...."mother's day
caddis" for instance is one I've only heard used to refer to Brachycentrus
....therefore the common name is just as useful and more pleasant and
"romantic" than the Latin ( I think romance is important ... there is very
little romance in "drowning a worm," lots in "fishing the Mother's Day
Caddis" ... romance is part of FF's image/ fact / magic )

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Wayne Harrison wrote:

"Jeff Miller" wrote


one of the best examples i remember was the salmon fishing on the rapid
about 3 or 4 years ago when peter charles and daytripper and 3 or 4
others tied up some 24s and 26s to imitate the tiny little nit the fish
were gorging on - i called it a peter's nit. no one identified the bug
as a chironomid, ephemerella, or whatever latin identifier they probably
knew. instead, it was "looks like a 24 or 26, dark body, black, with a
wing". they went back to the cabins, tied some tiny flies they thought
would do the trick, and we had a fishin fiesta. that was fun.


good point, and one that we in the hatch challenged southern
appalachians often disregard.

if you tell him i posted this story, i will have to kill you; unless, of
course, you do, and he gets to me first. anyway, me and pj were fishing on
snowbird one time in the early 90's during the ncaa tournament (the heels
lost to kansas in the final four), and we slogged for a couple hours,
catching nothing, fishing royal wulffs and yellow humpies, our favored
patterns during the year past. i had bought a streamside insect identifier
from orvis, and jim razzed my ass incessantly about being a dillettante. i
became bored/tired, and just sat down on a rock, watching him continue to do
a perfectly fine imitation of a 40 horse evinrude, relentlessly moving
upstream. i began to notice the growing presence of a small mayfly coming
off the water. i was initially stunned, since the sight of any bug other
than a dark caddis that time of year was very unusual. i managed to grab
one without totally smushing it, and put my little book to work. long story
short, i was in the midst of a hatch of paraleptophebia ------ (i can't
recall the last part--maybe adoptiva), which the book suggested was a
"little blue dun". i searched my box, and tied on a 16 adams parachute, the
closest i could come to "matching the hatch". it will come as no surprise
that i caught back up with jim, and began to slay the browns in front of his
ever widening eyes. his initial frustration turned to panic, and then
anger. he stopped fishing, and yelled over at me, "what in the **** are you
using?" i responded, "oh, just something that my book suggested---haven't
you noticed the paraleptophebias?" he kept that big ol ****eatin grin on
his face all the way across the creek, and was still smiling as he tore my
rod from my hands and gave me his. i just tied on another adams, and we
headed upstream together.

since then, i have been a firm believer in "matching the hatch", even in
our sterile waters.

yfitons
wayno


Any snipage would be wrong. The above stuff is why I keep hangin' around
this place.

Thanks guys,

Russell

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Willi wrote:



rw wrote:

Willi wrote:


My suggestion would be for example: a size 20 gray winged gray bodied
Mayfly.



If they're gray, why are they called "olives"? THAT'S confusing.



Yeah I agree. At least locally most of the bodies are much more gray
than olive. Sometimes they are completely gray and sometimes they have a
bit of olive in them. IMO, (because of the name I think) most
commercially tied flies are too olive in color. If you use the complete
common name, blue wing olives, it gets even more confusing. Some of the
ties for BWO's I've seen actually use blue hackle, blue wings and a
bright olive body. They'll probably catch some fish but don't look
anything like the flies I see.



Doesn't it depend on if your talking about green olives or ripe olives? :-)

Russell

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:Cvxcc.12811$pM1.735@lakeread06...


...i have a real fondness for fellas like
warren, makela, walt, pj, wayno, you, wolfgang, etc. who probably
know
the scientific details...

Not guilty and falsely accused, counselor. I can correctly paste the
Latin binomials on exactly two bugs......one of them because I think
it's a good idea to know the name of anything that looks big enough to
hurt me, and the other because I've never heard it referred to by any
other name.

That said, I agree that there is no good practical reason to make a
fetish of learning all of the bugs' true names (and it's probably bad
juju anyway), but some of us do derive some satisfaction from that
sort of things for various more esoteric reasons. I've always been in
love with trees. I've forgotten a lot in the last twenty years, but I
used to know the Latin binomials for virtually all of the native
species as well as a few dozen more or less common introduced species
in this area. It never did me any earthly good whatsoever beyond
boring companions nearly to death with a never ending string of what
they doubtless considered pretentious gibberish.......reason enough,
in my book. :)

Wolfgang

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Wolfgang" wrote

one of them because I think
it's a good idea to know the name of anything that looks big enough to
hurt me,

snip
That said, I agree that there is no good practical reason to make a
fetish of learning all of the bugs' true names (and it's probably bad
juju anyway), but some of us do derive some satisfaction from that
sort of things for various more esoteric reasons.

If I tell you that the lake 2 miles from here has a Hexagenia limbata hatch
and the bass feed on the nymphs and somewhat on the duns .... does that
prepare a mid-westerner to fish that activity better than "big yellow may"

Do you have a pretty damn good idea what nymph and dun patterns would likely
work? What size "big" is? What time of day to be there? What bottom type
the bug prefers and thus can limit your search to those types?

I agree that to a large extent that the Latin is often the opposite of
valuable, since it DEcreases real communication ( and bores others and makes
one appear snobby ;-) unless both parties have real knowledge linked to
those Latin words. And I agree that a lot of the value lies simply in the
"more esoteric reasons" But, I think they is good practical reason ....
at times, anyway .... to learn more about the bugs and their names,
especially if one wants to communicate with others on the subject.

Um, I just flashed on a thought

I can barely walk many days and just had my knee "imaged." When the
radiologist sends his report to the Dr that will suggest "cut or no cut" I'd
FAR prefer that he send that report in the scientific language that he and
the doc both use exactly the same than to say " the guy's got a bum knee"
scientific accuracy in wording, and Latin namimg, has advantages G

Taxonomy is the first science and the study of most fields starts with
learning the language of that field. In my case, learning more about the
bugs, including latin names, increases my fun and enjoyment. If that isn't
the case for others than they shouldn't do so

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Russell wrote:

Doesn't it depend on if your talking about green olives or ripe olives? :-)

Right. The nymphs are totally different from the spinners.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Mark Tinsky" wrote


Thanx for the useful info I ll be using it on the Missouri any day.



Post a report. I've only been to the Missouri one trip for 4 or 5 days and
plan to get back there. The more info I can get on the place the better.
It and the Big Horn are both places I think I could learn to love, but both
of them are a LOT of miles past a LOT of good fishin' holes when one is
coming from Arnoldifornica

( although I'm one of those guys that sometimes fails to catch many fish
because of info-overload ... I get sidetracked and stop fishing to 'just
look' pretty often ... but catching fish really isn't my main reason for
fishing, most days .... honest ;-)