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wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...
Things were quieting down a lot here in the past few days. The airlines
had
resumed flying; a few with 'special schedules' that involved minimal
time
on
the ground, but they were flying. Shops are open, and I went out to
the
city center for dinner each of the last two nights, feeling the calm
returning. I had just started putting in internet time looking for
rental
cars in Wales and making housing arrangements for next week, as my plans
are
now to get out of here on Sunday. I *almost* posted online yesterday
that
all was well, and thanked everyone for your emails of concern and
encouragement.

However, this morning, another coup was attempted, and its all up in the
air
again as to whether or not the planes will fly. No one knows anything at
this moment.

I was awoken by a phone call from my boss at 4 am saying that there was
a
coup attempt going on, to stay indoors and to stay down. It was dead
silent
outside, the power was out, and I could see my neighbors (including my
bosses wife) in the yard talking, so I grabbed my go-bag and flashlight,
told them where I was going, and hoofed it through the woods on campus
down
to my girlfriend's house, as I knew she would be terrified. When I got
there, we quickly tossed together her go-bag, then nervously went back
to
sleep. Suddenly, the gunfire erupted outside the school again, along
with
a
few very long, loud blasts from a .50 cal. A few mortars went off, and
then
a tank let go with a BABOOOM!! No one reported hearing an explosion, or
the
whistle of the outgoing shell, but it was only about 50 meters from our
house and it knocked things off the dish rack and rattled the windows
and
doors. If you have never been near a tank firing, you're missing
something.

indeed, lived right off woodward ave, in detroit during the 67 race riots,
during which the national guard was brought in to aid in restoring peace. i
was eight years old at the time, and had full understanding of the
circumstances, as i lived in the inner city of detroit during a very
racially charged period of our history. having had difficult relationships
with my black neighbors- (and having suffered violence in the hands of some
many of whom were not happy with having white families in their midst), i
fully understood the dynamics of racial tension, and the history involved
that would create such an enviroment. i had more difficulty understanding
why people took issue with me personally, as i was not and am not racist -
although that is irrelevent to this post. anyway, i would watch the tanks
drive by my house, see them downtown, and come in at night when the curfew
whistle went off, and although i was witness to the tanks, helicopters, and
other implements used in "peace keeping missions", i never heard a tank
fired- thank god. anyway, that was enough for this eight year old- i can't
imagine being eight years old and living through what those children in the
middle east experience every day.


If you haven't been near one firing with incoming rounds coming in to a
position right near your house, you ain't missing anything!! A short
while
later, an APC with a roof-mounted 50 cal drove right past our house,
several
guards with AKs at the ready riding on top, and turned down towards the
city. I guess at that particular moment, with the tank shaking our
fillings,
the stress from the past week of uncertainty, and hearing the continued
gunfire around me was the worst time of the past few months. I was
pretty
spooked.

After that it got quiet, with sporadic gunfire farther and farther away,
and
then I started intercepting the UN announcements telling the residents
of
downtown to stay indoors and stay low. Eventually, those reports turned
to
an 'all-clear' and the word was that it was over by 10 am.

Anyway, the current word in the news is that at the time we got our
wakeup
calls at 4AM, the rebels (a band of about 20 palace guards) had taken
the
radio and TV tower, announced their coup, and turned off the city power.
Then the next half-hour of silence was them heading up to the palace.
They
got intercepted at the military camp right outside our school, so the
gunbattle we heard at dawn was the government troops surrounding the
rebel
band, and the tank fire and 50 cal fire was the gunbattle with the
rebels.
The APC that drove by was the rebel leader and about 8 comrades
escaping,
and the last we have heard is that they managed to get beyond the city,
out
by the airport (damn), and were being pursued in a rolling gunbattle.

At least the gunfight is going in the other direction, but this puts
everything back into uncertainty mode. I have a week before my course in
England starts, so I can wait for the flights to resume, but of course
I'd
rather be casting dries to seatrout in Wales than hiding out in my house
waiting to be hit by a stray round. My neighbor said he found some dirt
craters in his front yard from the gunfights, so we are definately in
the
line of fire now. If no other groups take advantage of this unrest, this
might turn out to be a one-time thing. Otherwise, its the slippery
descent
back into hell for Kinshasa, and I can't wait to get out of here for the
summer!

More if it develops. As it stands, all is calm again, there's no word on
flights, and I am definately

keeping my head DOWN!

jesus, that is just what i was going to say. didn't you say in an earlier
post that your girlfriend has a son? what's it like for him?

snakefiddler


--riverman

you're ****ed.............................

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snakefiddler wrote:

"Greg Pavlov" wrote
"snakefiddler" wrote:

as i was not and am not racist -

I have a very hard time believing that there
are more than a very, very few people who
are not, consciously or otherwise.

well, greg, if there is any question as to where *i* stand on the issue, we
can check with my former (second) husband, whom at last check was still
black ;-)

Doesn't respond much to Greg's thought, though, which I think doesn't have
a lot to do with where one "stands". In almost thirty years of living on
and off in Africa, I've known any number (few dozen?) clearly racist white
Americans and Europeans married to black Africans. Granted, the vast
majority of these have been men. On the other hand, of those who, I
believe, married interracially to somehow "show", at least in part, that
they *weren't* racist, the majority have been women.

A more interesting question is what makes a person *a racist*. If what
Greg meant is that everyone has or has had racist thoughts or reactions, I
think it's true. I think it's also true that most of folks' gut or
immediate reactions to situations with strong racial components tend to be
more or less "racist" (even if unexpressed, unacted-upon), and that all
this doesn't necessarily make the people themselves racists.

Don't know you or your ex, of course, but were I to "check" with him and
he said, "No, she's not a racist", I'd hear (again without knowing
anything else about either), "No, she's no more racist than I am."

JR

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Greg Pavlov wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:08:52 -0400, "snakefiddler"
wrote:


i had more difficulty understanding
why people took issue with me personally,
as i was not and am not racist -


I have a very hard time believing that there
are more than a very, very few people who
are not, consciously or otherwise.

I assume you aren't just talking about white people. :-)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

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"Greg Pavlov" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:08:52 -0400, "snakefiddler"
wrote:

i had more difficulty understanding
why people took issue with me personally,
as i was not and am not racist -

I have a very hard time believing that there
are more than a very, very few people who
are not, consciously or otherwise.

well, greg, if there is any question as to where *i* stand on the issue, we
can check with my former (second) husband, whom at last check was still
black ;-)

snake

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"snakefiddler" wrote in message
...

i agree. we all have racially related thoughts- whether they be negative
or
positive. people are bombarded with racial images, whether from the
media,
family, or otherwise, and certainly we make very specific associations
with
a group of people. as long as these impressions don't lead to negative
attitudes and behaviours, that is not necassarily a bad thing. there is
much to be enjoyed and embraced from other cultures. also inherent in
racism, i believe, is the ability to oppress a group of people. this can
occur on an individual basis, or on a larger scale, but it must occur to
be
called racism.


Slight nonsequitors, but a couple of stories I heard somewhere recently. The
first is real, I think the second one I came across as an anecdote.

Some friends of mine were telling me that, when their daughter was in 1st or
2nd grade, she went home with a classmate for a sleepover. When she came
home the next morning, she told her parents, in honest astonishment, that
"Missy's parents are black!!"

A kid came home from his new school, and was telling his parents about all
his new friends. It was a multiracial community, so the parents asked if his
new best friend Billy was black. He thought and said "I don't know. I'll
look tomorrow."

:-)
--riverman

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Greg Pavlov wrote:
On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:12:17 +0200, JR wrote:


A more interesting question is what makes a person *a racist*. If what
Greg meant is that everyone has or has had racist thoughts or reactions, I
think it's true. ....


That's pretty much it.

In that case, it's a very poor definition. Defining "racist" in a way
that includes nearly everyone removes any power from the word. It puts
Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond in the same category with Martin Luther
King, Jr.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

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"JR" wrote in message ...
snakefiddler wrote:

"Greg Pavlov" wrote
"snakefiddler" wrote:

as i was not and am not racist -

I have a very hard time believing that there
are more than a very, very few people who
are not, consciously or otherwise.

well, greg, if there is any question as to where *i* stand on the issue,
we
can check with my former (second) husband, whom at last check was still
black ;-)

Doesn't respond much to Greg's thought, though, which I think doesn't have
a lot to do with where one "stands". In almost thirty years of living on
and off in Africa, I've known any number (few dozen?) clearly racist white
Americans and Europeans married to black Africans. Granted, the vast
majority of these have been men. On the other hand, of those who, I
believe, married interracially to somehow "show", at least in part, that
they *weren't* racist, the majority have been women.

intersting- i would really like to see the dynamics involved in the behavior
of these couples that would lead you to that conclusion. i will say this,
which i can state from first hand experience, there are much easier ways for
a woman to "prove" she isn't racist, than by marrying a black man! i'm sure
i don't need to tell you that interracial relationships, marital or
otherwise, are a very difficult proposition. one must deal with family,
community and the world at large. the most basic things, like deciding
where to go out for dinner, or vacation, or what movie theatre to attend, or
even where to live, can take on new proportions. then there is the issue of
children, and deciding how one feels about subjecting them to the dynamics
involved in being part of an interracial family. i could go on, and on, but
i think you get my point- there *really* are much easier ways to prove
oneself as a non-racist.
there is also the believed stereotype of *successful* black men marrying
white women to prove themselves as worthy of a certain status. of the
several interracial couples i have known, none of them fit this catagory.
we all did it for love ;-)



A more interesting question is what makes a person *a racist*. If what
Greg meant is that everyone has or has had racist thoughts or reactions, I
think it's true. I think it's also true that most of folks' gut or
immediate reactions to situations with strong racial components tend to be
more or less "racist" (even if unexpressed, unacted-upon), and that all
this doesn't necessarily make the people themselves racists.

i agree. we all have racially related thoughts- whether they be negative or
positive. people are bombarded with racial images, whether from the media,
family, or otherwise, and certainly we make very specific associations with
a group of people. as long as these impressions don't lead to negative
attitudes and behaviours, that is not necassarily a bad thing. there is
much to be enjoyed and embraced from other cultures. also inherent in
racism, i believe, is the ability to oppress a group of people. this can
occur on an individual basis, or on a larger scale, but it must occur to be
called racism.


Don't know you or your ex, of course, but were I to "check" with him and
he said, "No, she's not a racist", I'd hear (again without knowing
anything else about either), "No, she's no more racist than I am."

well, that's an interesting statement...

snakefiddler

JR

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"riverman" wrote in message
...

"snakefiddler" wrote in message
...

i agree. we all have racially related thoughts- whether they be
negative
or
positive. people are bombarded with racial images, whether from the
media,
family, or otherwise, and certainly we make very specific associations
with
a group of people. as long as these impressions don't lead to negative
attitudes and behaviours, that is not necassarily a bad thing. there is
much to be enjoyed and embraced from other cultures. also inherent in
racism, i believe, is the ability to oppress a group of people. this
can
occur on an individual basis, or on a larger scale, but it must occur to
be
called racism.


Slight nonsequitors, but a couple of stories I heard somewhere recently.
The
first is real, I think the second one I came across as an anecdote.

Some friends of mine were telling me that, when their daughter was in 1st
or
2nd grade, she went home with a classmate for a sleepover. When she came
home the next morning, she told her parents, in honest astonishment, that
"Missy's parents are black!!"

very good - G





A kid came home from his new school, and was telling his parents about all
his new friends. It was a multiracial community, so the parents asked if
his
new best friend Billy was black. He thought and said "I don't know. I'll
look tomorrow."

that one gave me a good chuckle- most excellent.

snake

:-)
--riverman

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"Greg Pavlov" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:23:32 -0400, "snakefiddler"
wrote:

.... i'm sure
i don't need to tell you that interracial relationships,
marital or otherwise, are a very difficult proposition. ...

I see that among people that I know (from an
external & thus superficial view). A lot of
the same goes on for gay couples.


SO TRUE- there isn't a whole lot of difference in the issues that couples of
both "type" face. in fact, i think the unifying bond for the two lies in
the sexual phobias, and taboos that exist in our society relative to each.
however, people tend to have a lot less problem with white men/black women
than vice versa, and less with lesbians as opposed to gay men. so, the less
threatening a couple is, and the more fantasy inducing another is, the more
they are accepted.
just a little something for us all to think about, since we're on the
subject.

snake

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"Greg Pavlov" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:00:00 -0400, "snakefiddler"
wrote:


well, greg, if there is any question as to where *i* stand on the issue,
we
can check with my former (second) husband, whom at last check was still
black ;-)


Paradoxically, I don't think that that has much
to do with it, only that the degree is likely to
be less or it's subsumed or it's directed at other
targets.

I was not saying that I think that there is something
wrong with you, I was questioning your claim on the
grounds that just about no one, in my opinion, can
make it honestly.

well, so what you are saying is that we are all "racists", and the only
difference between us is a matter of "degree"? i think that is
disingenuous. the mere fact that i acknowledge the fact that willie mays is
black, and greg pavlov is white, can't possibly be equated with the fact
that the evil sonsofbitches who killed medgar evers did it because they were
white and he was black.

come on, all of us know, instinctively, who are "racists" and who are
not. same same as recognizing "pornography".

yfitons
wayno