anti-clave
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
//snip// Noland is worth fishing if you don't mind smallish fish and a
very nice but somewhat long day hike. Forney is pretty much a
wash for fishing. For some reason that creek has never really
recovered from the deforestation and the sections you can reach
on a reasonable round-trip day hike from the Road to Nowhere are
pretty much a perennial ugly, muddy mess.



Thanks for the advice. I drove up the road weekend-before-last and there
were horse trailers and lots of cars, so I figure you're right. It's a
little too easy to get to. But it does look look like it would be
interesting to get a pack rod and a pack and plenty of Power Bars and just
start walking. One of these days when I get a little younger . . .
Bob

anti-clave
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
//snip// Noland is worth fishing if you don't mind smallish fish and a
very nice but somewhat long day hike. Forney is pretty much a
wash for fishing. For some reason that creek has never really
recovered from the deforestation and the sections you can reach
on a reasonable round-trip day hike from the Road to Nowhere are
pretty much a perennial ugly, muddy mess.



Thanks for the advice. I drove up the road weekend-before-last and there
were horse trailers and lots of cars, so I figure you're right. It's a
little too easy to get to. But it does look look like it would be
interesting to get a pack rod and a pack and plenty of Power Bars and just
start walking. One of these days when I get a little younger . . .
Bob

anti-clave
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
//snip// Noland is worth fishing if you don't mind smallish fish and a
very nice but somewhat long day hike. Forney is pretty much a
wash for fishing. For some reason that creek has never really
recovered from the deforestation and the sections you can reach
on a reasonable round-trip day hike from the Road to Nowhere are
pretty much a perennial ugly, muddy mess.



Thanks for the advice. I drove up the road weekend-before-last and there
were horse trailers and lots of cars, so I figure you're right. It's a
little too easy to get to. But it does look look like it would be
interesting to get a pack rod and a pack and plenty of Power Bars and just
start walking. One of these days when I get a little younger . . .
Bob

anti-clave
 

"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

//snip// not a good idea. heavily fished, and not that good water in
the first
place.

better that you go up ...... creek, or hike a little ways up eagle to
eeklaneetee.

Understood. I'd like to see the old copper mines up on Eagle too. Did you
know that Cities Service Company retained mining rights there up until well
into the 80s? Gold and Copper.

If GWB had been in charge they'd have restarted and expanded the mining
operation and the Road to Nowhere would be for access to the mine . . .
Bob

anti-clave
 

"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

//snip// not a good idea. heavily fished, and not that good water in
the first
place.

better that you go up ...... creek, or hike a little ways up eagle to
eeklaneetee.

Understood. I'd like to see the old copper mines up on Eagle too. Did you
know that Cities Service Company retained mining rights there up until well
into the 80s? Gold and Copper.

If GWB had been in charge they'd have restarted and expanded the mining
operation and the Road to Nowhere would be for access to the mine . . .
Bob

anti-clave
 

"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

//snip// not a good idea. heavily fished, and not that good water in
the first
place.

better that you go up ...... creek, or hike a little ways up eagle to
eeklaneetee.

Understood. I'd like to see the old copper mines up on Eagle too. Did you
know that Cities Service Company retained mining rights there up until well
into the 80s? Gold and Copper.

If GWB had been in charge they'd have restarted and expanded the mining
operation and the Road to Nowhere would be for access to the mine . . .
Bob

anti-clave
 

"snakefiddler" wrote

REPEATED STUFF SNIPPED

sorry about the message being sent twice- my server told me it didn't send
the first one, so i re-typed another, and when i sent it, the first one
got
sent along with it- arggghhh

snake


not to worry, darlin. wolfgang usually needs at least one repeat
message to fully comprehend...or should that be comprendo...or capische...

the boy is *so* cosmopolitan...

yfitp
wayno

anti-clave
 

"snakefiddler" wrote

REPEATED STUFF SNIPPED

sorry about the message being sent twice- my server told me it didn't send
the first one, so i re-typed another, and when i sent it, the first one
got
sent along with it- arggghhh

snake


not to worry, darlin. wolfgang usually needs at least one repeat
message to fully comprehend...or should that be comprendo...or capische...

the boy is *so* cosmopolitan...

yfitp
wayno

anti-clave
 

"snakefiddler" wrote

REPEATED STUFF SNIPPED

sorry about the message being sent twice- my server told me it didn't send
the first one, so i re-typed another, and when i sent it, the first one
got
sent along with it- arggghhh

snake


not to worry, darlin. wolfgang usually needs at least one repeat
message to fully comprehend...or should that be comprendo...or capische...

the boy is *so* cosmopolitan...

yfitp
wayno

anti-clave
 

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:WpA1d.45842$wu.27509@okepread04...
bob - i'm bringing my bay boat as an experiment. if the lake is high
enough, i'm hoping to check out chambers and forney where they enter the
lake - i've never been there. a hike up hazel is a definite plan... we
also need to do that snowbird thing. but, as rachel will be along, i
won't be overnighting.

noland is easy access and has a good trail - similar to the one along
hazel. i've been about 3 miles up it. i caught small rainbows when i
fished it. i also caught a hornets' nest... g i liked the hike. though
easy to access because of the paved road and parking lot, i only saw one
other person fishing in the lower stretch. i've heard some of the big fish
move up from the lake and ramble about in the lower stretches in the
fall...


If you can take an extra rider, and are planning such voyages between
October 10 - 16, count me in. My wish list includes Eagle, Chambers, Hazel,
Snowbird, Santeetlah, Nantahala (good when you absolutely, positively HAVE
to catch a fish), Kimsey Creek, and Buck Creek.

I know it's true that fish move from the lake into the streams in the fall.
Just a matter of getting there fustest with the mostest. Or something like
that.

Bob

anti-clave
 

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:WpA1d.45842$wu.27509@okepread04...
bob - i'm bringing my bay boat as an experiment. if the lake is high
enough, i'm hoping to check out chambers and forney where they enter the
lake - i've never been there. a hike up hazel is a definite plan... we
also need to do that snowbird thing. but, as rachel will be along, i
won't be overnighting.

noland is easy access and has a good trail - similar to the one along
hazel. i've been about 3 miles up it. i caught small rainbows when i
fished it. i also caught a hornets' nest... g i liked the hike. though
easy to access because of the paved road and parking lot, i only saw one
other person fishing in the lower stretch. i've heard some of the big fish
move up from the lake and ramble about in the lower stretches in the
fall...


If you can take an extra rider, and are planning such voyages between
October 10 - 16, count me in. My wish list includes Eagle, Chambers, Hazel,
Snowbird, Santeetlah, Nantahala (good when you absolutely, positively HAVE
to catch a fish), Kimsey Creek, and Buck Creek.

I know it's true that fish move from the lake into the streams in the fall.
Just a matter of getting there fustest with the mostest. Or something like
that.

Bob

anti-clave
 

"Bob Patton" rwpmailatcharterdotnet wrote in message
...
"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

//snip// not a good idea. heavily fished, and not that good water in
the first
place.

better that you go up ...... creek, or hike a little ways up eagle to
eeklaneetee.

Understood. I'd like to see the old copper mines up on Eagle too.

at the risk of appearing to be maudlin, i would love to take a slow trip
up eagle and fish eeklaneetlee. we (me and pj and darris) have often talked
of taking a day hike up that far. but the thought of doing without whisky
or vodka for more than twelve hours is a monumental task.

perhaps we can arrange for suitable ...logistics...

yfitons
wayno

anti-clave
 

"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

//snip// would expect to be high water. snakiest lookin' place i've ever
seen. but
i haven't actually seen a snake in three trips. :)


Slip-slidin' down a bank into the upper Nantahala (above Nantahala Lake) I
grabbed at a limb to break my slide. It was sort of soft and moved when I
grabbed it. Neither the snake nor I ever knew exactly what the other looked
like.

Bob

anti-clave
 

"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

//snip// would expect to be high water. snakiest lookin' place i've ever
seen. but
i haven't actually seen a snake in three trips. :)


Slip-slidin' down a bank into the upper Nantahala (above Nantahala Lake) I
grabbed at a limb to break my slide. It was sort of soft and moved when I
grabbed it. Neither the snake nor I ever knew exactly what the other looked
like.

Bob

anti-clave
 

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

//snip//
I'm in. It was touch and go for a while there......Becky and her brother
had me talked into going to Montreal instead.....big city
lights.....restaurants......foreign culture.....Culture.......what the
hell,
thinks I, I've always wanted to see France. But then there's the passport
thingy and financing, etc. So it looks like Graham county after
all.......foreign culture......Culture........

Wolfgang
swimmin' pools......movie stars.......


I went to Canada a few months ago - surprising how easy it was to get into
BC and how hard it was to get back into WA. Got bawled out by a border guard
for not having my passport, and of course SWMBO had to go into a long
explanation of how I lost it on the plane and so on, the detail of which
explanation the constabulary did not appreciate as much as SWMBO did. A
royal PITA.

How can you ask for more culture than Graham county? You got the marvelous
language, the Norfolk Southern trestle at Almond, well-stocked grocery
stores, and Snyder's Store.

Just ask for a pied a terre in Robbinsville that you can use for a menage a
deux and see what happens!

Bob

anti-clave
 

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

//snip//
I'm in. It was touch and go for a while there......Becky and her brother
had me talked into going to Montreal instead.....big city
lights.....restaurants......foreign culture.....Culture.......what the
hell,
thinks I, I've always wanted to see France. But then there's the passport
thingy and financing, etc. So it looks like Graham county after
all.......foreign culture......Culture........

Wolfgang
swimmin' pools......movie stars.......


I went to Canada a few months ago - surprising how easy it was to get into
BC and how hard it was to get back into WA. Got bawled out by a border guard
for not having my passport, and of course SWMBO had to go into a long
explanation of how I lost it on the plane and so on, the detail of which
explanation the constabulary did not appreciate as much as SWMBO did. A
royal PITA.

How can you ask for more culture than Graham county? You got the marvelous
language, the Norfolk Southern trestle at Almond, well-stocked grocery
stores, and Snyder's Store.

Just ask for a pied a terre in Robbinsville that you can use for a menage a
deux and see what happens!

Bob

anti-clave
 

"snakefiddler" wrote in message
...

//snip//
won't bother you. i always look for snakes when i am hiking/fishing.
//snip//

So do lots of guys in this vicinity . . .

anti-clave
 

"snakefiddler" wrote in message
...

//snip//
won't bother you. i always look for snakes when i am hiking/fishing.
//snip//

So do lots of guys in this vicinity . . .

anti-clave
 

"snakefiddler" wrote in message
...

//snip//
won't bother you. i always look for snakes when i am hiking/fishing.
//snip//

So do lots of guys in this vicinity . . .

anti-clave
 

"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

"snakefiddler" wrote

REPEATED STUFF SNIPPED

sorry about the message being sent twice- my server told me it didn't
send
the first one, so i re-typed another, and when i sent it, the first one
got
sent along with it- arggghhh

snake


not to worry, darlin. wolfgang usually needs at least one repeat
message to fully comprehend...or should that be comprendo...or capische...

the boy is *so* cosmopolitan...

yfitp
wayno


well, uncle wayno, it can happen to the best of us sometimes ;-)
yfitm
jen

anti-clave
 

"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

"snakefiddler" wrote

REPEATED STUFF SNIPPED

sorry about the message being sent twice- my server told me it didn't
send
the first one, so i re-typed another, and when i sent it, the first one
got
sent along with it- arggghhh

snake


not to worry, darlin. wolfgang usually needs at least one repeat
message to fully comprehend...or should that be comprendo...or capische...

the boy is *so* cosmopolitan...

yfitp
wayno


well, uncle wayno, it can happen to the best of us sometimes ;-)
yfitm
jen

anti-clave
 

"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

"Bob Patton" rwpmailatcharterdotnet wrote in message
...
"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

//snip// not a good idea. heavily fished, and not that good water
in
the first
place.

better that you go up ...... creek, or hike a little ways up eagle
to
eeklaneetee.

Understood. I'd like to see the old copper mines up on Eagle too.

at the risk of appearing to be maudlin, i would love to take a slow
trip
up eagle and fish eeklaneetlee. we (me and pj and darris) have often
talked
of taking a day hike up that far. but the thought of doing without whisky
or vodka for more than twelve hours is a monumental task.

perhaps we can arrange for suitable ...logistics...

yfitons
wayno

Hm......what's twelve hours worth of the water of life in grams?

Wolfgang
he of the strong enough back.

anti-clave
 

"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

"Bob Patton" rwpmailatcharterdotnet wrote in message
...
"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
om...

//snip// not a good idea. heavily fished, and not that good water
in
the first
place.

better that you go up ...... creek, or hike a little ways up eagle
to
eeklaneetee.

Understood. I'd like to see the old copper mines up on Eagle too.

at the risk of appearing to be maudlin, i would love to take a slow
trip
up eagle and fish eeklaneetlee. we (me and pj and darris) have often
talked
of taking a day hike up that far. but the thought of doing without whisky
or vodka for more than twelve hours is a monumental task.

perhaps we can arrange for suitable ...logistics...

yfitons
wayno

Hm......what's twelve hours worth of the water of life in grams?

Wolfgang
he of the strong enough back.

anti-clave
 

"Bob Patton" rwpmailatcharterdotnet wrote in message
...
"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

//snip//
I'm in. It was touch and go for a while there......Becky and her
brother
had me talked into going to Montreal instead.....big city
lights.....restaurants......foreign culture.....Culture.......what the
hell,
thinks I, I've always wanted to see France. But then there's the
passport
thingy and financing, etc. So it looks like Graham county after
all.......foreign culture......Culture........

Wolfgang
swimmin' pools......movie stars.......


I went to Canada a few months ago - surprising how easy it was to get into
BC and how hard it was to get back into WA. Got bawled out by a border
guard
for not having my passport, and of course SWMBO had to go into a long
explanation of how I lost it on the plane and so on, the detail of which
explanation the constabulary did not appreciate as much as SWMBO did. A
royal PITA.

Should'a tried a six pack of Labatt's, eh? :)

How can you ask for more culture than Graham county? You got the marvelous
language, the Norfolk Southern trestle at Almond, well-stocked grocery
stores, and Snyder's Store.

Just ask for a pied a terre in Robbinsville that you can use for a menage
a
deux and see what happens!

****, I sprained an achilles just reading that. :(

Wolfgang

anti-clave
 

"Bob Patton" rwpmailatcharterdotnet wrote in message
...
"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

//snip//
I'm in. It was touch and go for a while there......Becky and her
brother
had me talked into going to Montreal instead.....big city
lights.....restaurants......foreign culture.....Culture.......what the
hell,
thinks I, I've always wanted to see France. But then there's the
passport
thingy and financing, etc. So it looks like Graham county after
all.......foreign culture......Culture........

Wolfgang
swimmin' pools......movie stars.......


I went to Canada a few months ago - surprising how easy it was to get into
BC and how hard it was to get back into WA. Got bawled out by a border
guard
for not having my passport, and of course SWMBO had to go into a long
explanation of how I lost it on the plane and so on, the detail of which
explanation the constabulary did not appreciate as much as SWMBO did. A
royal PITA.

Should'a tried a six pack of Labatt's, eh? :)

How can you ask for more culture than Graham county? You got the marvelous
language, the Norfolk Southern trestle at Almond, well-stocked grocery
stores, and Snyder's Store.

Just ask for a pied a terre in Robbinsville that you can use for a menage
a
deux and see what happens!

****, I sprained an achilles just reading that. :(

Wolfgang

anti-clave
 

"snakefiddler" wrote in
:

glad your gonna make, it wolfie. i hope you, and the majority of
clavers will be there when i am- i want to meet all ya'll.


...aw ****, guess i'll make it this year, mainly because i'm afraid some of
you old farts like wayno, et al will die off before i git to meet ya'll (or
izzat all ya'lls?) if'n i can't fish i'll just look at the pretty leaves.

frank church
....who is still ashamed of my score with old SF, it ain't right, pupils
shouldn't beat teachers. :(

anti-clave
 

"snakefiddler" wrote in
:

glad your gonna make, it wolfie. i hope you, and the majority of
clavers will be there when i am- i want to meet all ya'll.


...aw ****, guess i'll make it this year, mainly because i'm afraid some of
you old farts like wayno, et al will die off before i git to meet ya'll (or
izzat all ya'lls?) if'n i can't fish i'll just look at the pretty leaves.

frank church
....who is still ashamed of my score with old SF, it ain't right, pupils
shouldn't beat teachers. :(

anti-clave
 

"snakefiddler" wrote in
:

glad your gonna make, it wolfie. i hope you, and the majority of
clavers will be there when i am- i want to meet all ya'll.


...aw ****, guess i'll make it this year, mainly because i'm afraid some of
you old farts like wayno, et al will die off before i git to meet ya'll (or
izzat all ya'lls?) if'n i can't fish i'll just look at the pretty leaves.

frank church
....who is still ashamed of my score with old SF, it ain't right, pupils
shouldn't beat teachers. :(

anti-clave
 

"Bob Patton" rwpmailatcharterdotnet wrote in message
...

One of these days when I get a little younger . . .

bob:

Gonna be meeting some friends on the north fork next weekend, care to share
a drink coming or going?

wayne

anti-clave
 

"Bob Patton" rwpmailatcharterdotnet wrote in message
...

One of these days when I get a little younger . . .

bob:

Gonna be meeting some friends on the north fork next weekend, care to share
a drink coming or going?

wayne

anti-clave
 

"Bob Patton" rwpmailatcharterdotnet wrote in message
...

One of these days when I get a little younger . . .

bob:

Gonna be meeting some friends on the north fork next weekend, care to share
a drink coming or going?

wayne

anti-clave
 

snakefiddler wrote:
"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
nk.net...
my hope is that the snakes will be moving elsewhere in october.

Well, what the hell?! Everybody is worried about snakes and
everybody keeps inviting one and saying, "looking forward to meeting
you....blah.....blah". I JUST DON'T GET IT! :(


LOL ;-)


hazel
was one of the snakiest spots i've ever been to.

Ditto. Big black hairy brutes. :(
SNIPPED jeff

I'm in. It was touch and go for a while there......Becky and her
brother had me talked into going to Montreal instead.....big city
lights.....restaurants......foreign culture.....Culture.......what
the hell, thinks I, I've always wanted to see France. But then
there's the passport thingy and financing, etc. So it looks like
Graham county after all.......foreign culture......Culture........

Wolfgang
swimmin' pools......movie stars.......


glad your gonna make, it wolfie. i hope you, and the majority of
clavers will be there when i am- i want to meet all ya'll.

I met Wolfgang and lived to tell the tale, so I suppose it's safe.
--
TL,
Tim
(Then again, it was a brief meeting.)
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

anti-clave
 

snakefiddler wrote:
"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
nk.net...
my hope is that the snakes will be moving elsewhere in october.

Well, what the hell?! Everybody is worried about snakes and
everybody keeps inviting one and saying, "looking forward to meeting
you....blah.....blah". I JUST DON'T GET IT! :(


LOL ;-)


hazel
was one of the snakiest spots i've ever been to.

Ditto. Big black hairy brutes. :(
SNIPPED jeff

I'm in. It was touch and go for a while there......Becky and her
brother had me talked into going to Montreal instead.....big city
lights.....restaurants......foreign culture.....Culture.......what
the hell, thinks I, I've always wanted to see France. But then
there's the passport thingy and financing, etc. So it looks like
Graham county after all.......foreign culture......Culture........

Wolfgang
swimmin' pools......movie stars.......


glad your gonna make, it wolfie. i hope you, and the majority of
clavers will be there when i am- i want to meet all ya'll.

I met Wolfgang and lived to tell the tale, so I suppose it's safe.
--
TL,
Tim
(Then again, it was a brief meeting.)
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

anti-clave
 

Wayne Harrison wrote:
"Jeff" wrote

anyway...consider chambers a plan.

at some point, as we near oct 9, i reckon i need to know who'll be
around and when. have you talked to jim?

i'd like for some of you arrogant non-tar heel sonsabitches to
know that i answered jeffie by email, by god!

What?! Ping isn't working now in NC?
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

anti-clave
 

Wayne Harrison wrote:
"Jeff" wrote

anyway...consider chambers a plan.

at some point, as we near oct 9, i reckon i need to know who'll be
around and when. have you talked to jim?

i'd like for some of you arrogant non-tar heel sonsabitches to
know that i answered jeffie by email, by god!

What?! Ping isn't working now in NC?
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

anti-clave
 

"Jeff"
at some point, as we near oct 9, i reckon i need to know who'll be
around and when. have you talked to jim?

jeff

IJ ----how about asking those attending to include dates of visit----I'm
having a little hip problem and will probably come up the second week when
boat is not so crowded and hike is not too long. ---perhaps catch a few
smallmouth or big browns on Calderwood-----got little response when trying
to get group to rent cabin on Snowbird so will probably sleep in van
somewhere--

common brown water snakes are harmless and and mostly identified as cotton
mouths---but I did see the biggest wild timber rattler under a bush one day
while hiking around Slickrock creek.

anti-clave
 

"Jeff"
at some point, as we near oct 9, i reckon i need to know who'll be
around and when. have you talked to jim?

jeff

IJ ----how about asking those attending to include dates of visit----I'm
having a little hip problem and will probably come up the second week when
boat is not so crowded and hike is not too long. ---perhaps catch a few
smallmouth or big browns on Calderwood-----got little response when trying
to get group to rent cabin on Snowbird so will probably sleep in van
somewhere--

common brown water snakes are harmless and and mostly identified as cotton
mouths---but I did see the biggest wild timber rattler under a bush one day
while hiking around Slickrock creek.

anti-clave
 

"Joe McIntosh" wrote in message
...

"Jeff"
at some point, as we near oct 9, i reckon i need to know who'll be
around and when. have you talked to jim?

jeff

IJ ----how about asking those attending to include dates of visit----I'm
having a little hip problem and will probably come up the second week when
boat is not so crowded and hike is not too long. ---perhaps catch a few
smallmouth or big browns on Calderwood-----got little response when
trying
to get group to rent cabin on Snowbird so will probably sleep in van
somewhere--


i am planning to get into town (i think early in the mornin) on the 14th,
stay overnight then, and the 15th (fall break from school)- probably hang
around for the day on the 16th to fish, and come home that evening/night.

gonna be staying at the fontana village campground. i think that's a good
location in respect to our planned activities?


common brown water snakes are harmless and and mostly identified as
cotton
mouths---but I did see the biggest wild timber rattler under a bush one
day
while hiking around Slickrock creek.

very cool ;-)

snake

anti-clave
 

"Joe McIntosh" wrote in message
...

"Jeff"
at some point, as we near oct 9, i reckon i need to know who'll be
around and when. have you talked to jim?

jeff

IJ ----how about asking those attending to include dates of visit----I'm
having a little hip problem and will probably come up the second week when
boat is not so crowded and hike is not too long. ---perhaps catch a few
smallmouth or big browns on Calderwood-----got little response when
trying
to get group to rent cabin on Snowbird so will probably sleep in van
somewhere--


i am planning to get into town (i think early in the mornin) on the 14th,
stay overnight then, and the 15th (fall break from school)- probably hang
around for the day on the 16th to fish, and come home that evening/night.

gonna be staying at the fontana village campground. i think that's a good
location in respect to our planned activities?


common brown water snakes are harmless and and mostly identified as
cotton
mouths---but I did see the biggest wild timber rattler under a bush one
day
while hiking around Slickrock creek.

very cool ;-)

snake

anti-clave
 

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:18:35 GMT, "Joe McIntosh"
wrote:

IJ ----how about asking those attending to include dates of visit----I'm
having a little hip problem and will probably come up the second week when
boat is not so crowded and hike is not too long.

I'm thinking the 2nd week too. You can park your van in the shadow of the
"Terminator" if you want. g
--
Charlie...