waterboarding
 

Somewhere I think waterboarding fits into this somewhere in what is
written below....

\-"-A-r-e- -w-e- -f-i-g-h-t-i-n-g- -a- -w-a-r- -o-n- -t-e-r-r-o-r-
-o-r- -a-r-e-n-'-t- -w-e-?- -W-a-s- -i-t- -o-r- -w-a-s- -i-t- -n-o-t-
-s-t-a-r-t-e-d- -b-y- -I-s-l-a-m-i-c- -p-e-o-p-l-e- -w-h-o-
-b-r-o-u-g-h-t- -i-t- -t-o- -o-u-r- -s-h-o-r-e-s- -o-n-
-[-F-O-N-T-=-V-e-r-d-a-n-a-]-[-C-O-L-O-R-=-r-e-d-]-[-F-O-N-T-=-V-e-r-d-a-n-a-]-S-e-p-t-e-m-b-e-r-
-1-1-,- -2-0-0-1-[-/-F-O-N-T-]-[-/-C-O-L-O-R-]-[-/-F-O-N-T-]- ?

Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally
murdered that day, in downtown ?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /st1:City
w:st="on"Manhattan/st1:City , across the Potomac from our nation's
capitol and in a field in st1:State w:st="on"st1:place
w:st="on"Pennsylvania/st1:place/st1:State?

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible,
burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when
an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?... Well, I
don't. I don't care at all .

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for
incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start
caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in
Saudi Arabia

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking
off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed
throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in
st1:country-region w:st="on"st1:place
w:st="on"Iraq/st1:place/st1:country-region come out and fight like
men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of
nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide
bombs.
I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First
Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead
of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up
an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care .

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have
been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest
assured: I don't care .

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not
to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank:
I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat,
and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is
complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely
believe in your heart of hearts: I don't care .

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran"
and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and-you guessed it I
don't care!!

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your E-mail
friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the pe ople responsible for this
ridiculous behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you
choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities
committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great Country! And may I
add:

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a
difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem." --
Ronald Reagan

I have another quote that I would like to add AND.......I hope you
forward all this.

"If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God, then we will be a
nation gone under." Also by.. Ronald Reagan

One last thought for the day:

In case we find ourselves Starting to believe all the Anti-American
sentiment and negativity, we should remember st1:country-region
w:st="on"st1:place w:st="on"England/st1:place/st1:country-region
's Prime Minister Tony Blair's words during a recent interview. When
asked by on e of his Parliament members why he believes so much in
st1:country-region w:st="on"st1:place
w:st="on"America/st1:place/st1:country-region, he said: "A simple
way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in... And
how many want out."

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON, AS MANY SEEM TO FORGET BOTH OF THEM.
AMEN?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
\"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office\" /o:p/o:p

F/T AND I APPROVE OF THIS MESSAGE!!


--
Fishin Technician
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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waterboarding
 

In article ,
"Opus--Mark H. Bowen" wrote:

"Ray or Bobbi Adams" wrote in message
...

"rb608" wrote in message
news:%xsdj.6464$oh5.2546@trndny08...
"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
If waterboarding would save the life of your wife, children, and
boyfriend, would you be in favor of it? Yeah, me too.

Turn that around. Suppose your wife or child was mistakenly taken
captive by a foreign government who thought they had valuable
information. Would it be okay if they were waterboarded? Hell no; and
that's the same outrage you should have when our country does it.

With all due respect, the false choice you posit is bull****. It assumes
that you *know* you have the right person, you *know* they possess the
information you seek, you *know* that information is valid and timely,
and you *know* they will give you the correct information under torture.
But, the fact is, you can know none of that with certainty before you
begin the torture. Further, even with information you glean in that
manner, you can't be certain it is truth or made up to stop the torture.
IOW, you're going on an inhuman fishing expedition (OBROFF).

Torture is one of those crimes that simply cannot be excused. There can
be no double standard. If we can do it to them, they can do it to us.
If we can do it to save our children, they can do it to our children with
the same moral authority. I cannot excuse or condone that.

Joe F.

sure beats beheading

Not necessarily.

Op

As a guy who got waterboarded at SERE let me assure you that beheading
(which I admit to not having endured) is likely worse.

waterboarding
 

"rw" wrote


This country has lost its way.

--


Note: the following is MY opinion




MY country is more that buildings and bodies.

It is values that I pray will still exist and be strong long after the
current stock of individual building and bodies are dust again.

"W" makes me sick each time he gives lip service to 'protecting the country'
as he actually works at destroying it's most important values.





Note: This has been MY personal Opinion

waterboarding
 

Somewhere I think waterboarding fits into this somewhere in what is
written below....

\-"-A-r-e- -w-e- -f-i-g-h-t-i-n-g- -a- -w-a-r- -o-n- -t-e-r-r-o-r-
-o-r- -a-r-e-n-'-t- -w-e-?- -W-a-s- -i-t- -o-r- -w-a-s- -i-t- -n-o-t-
-s-t-a-r-t-e-d- -b-y- -I-s-l-a-m-i-c- -p-e-o-p-l-e- -w-h-o-
-b-r-o-u-g-h-t- -i-t- -t-o- -o-u-r- -s-h-o-r-e-s- -o-n-
-[-F-O-N-T-=-V-e-r-d-a-n-a-]-[-C-O-L-O-R-=-r-e-d-]-[-F-O-N-T-=-V-e-r-d-a-n-a-]-S-e-p-t-e-m-b-e-r-
-1-1-,- -2-0-0-1-[-/-F-O-N-T-]-[-/-C-O-L-O-R-]-[-/-F-O-N-T-]- ?

Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally
murdered that day, in downtown office buildings in ?xml:namespace
prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[image:
http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulletin/ /st1:City
w:st=]Manhattan/st1:City , and across the Potomac from our nation's
capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania???

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible,
burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when
an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?... Well, I
don't. I don't care at all .

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for
incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start
caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in
Saudi Arabia

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking
off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed
throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in
st1:country-region w:st="on"ST1:place
w:st="on"Iraq/ST1:place/st1:country-region come out and fight like
men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of
nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide
bombs.
I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First
Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead
of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up
an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care .

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have
been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest
assured: I don't care .

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not
to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank:
I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat,
and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is
complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely
believe in your heart of hearts: I don't care .

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran"
and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and-you guessed it I
don't care!!

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your E-mail
friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the pe ople responsible for this
ridiculous behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you
choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities
committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great Country! And may I
add:

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a
difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem." --
Ronald Reagan

I have another quote that I would like to add AND.......I hope you
forward all this.

"If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God, then we will be a
nation gone under." Also by.. Ronald Reagan

One last thought for the day:

In case we find ourselves Starting to believe all the Anti-American
sentiment and negativity, we should remember Prime Minister Tony
Blair's words during a recent interview. When asked by one of his
Parliament members why he believes so much in America , he said: "A
simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want
in... And how many want out."

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON, AS MANY SEEM TO FORGET BOTH OF THEM.
AMENffice:office\" /O:p/O:p

F/T AND I APPROVE OF THIS MESSAGE!!


--
Fishin Technician
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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waterboarding
 

On Dec 29, 2:45*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:44:03 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"

wrote:
I couldn't make heads nor tails of what BC wrote.

That's because he is drunk *--- again.

But tomorrow I'll be sober, you will still be stupid and ugly.

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:42:32 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

I can only suppose that you wouldn't have problem with the so-called
enemies
of the US torturing our troops at will as well. I mean it could save the
lives of our enemies troops.

What are you talking about, nitwit. They ARE torturing our troops,
and not for info, but just for the pleasure of it. Where the hell
have you been for the past few years? I know you live in a backward
town in backward section of a great state, but surely they have tv,
radio, newspapers.


Imagine that? You're not one who holds with the ideals of liberal democracy
are you. Now I know that you will associate the word "liberal" with
political ideology, but that ain't got nothin' to do with what I am alluding
to. I mean you don't really abide with the precepts of constitutionalism, do
ya Davie?

Begin Quotes**
In Furman v. Georgia (1972), Justice Brennan wrote, "There are, then, four
principles by which we may determine whether a particular punishment is
'cruel and unusual'."

a.. The "essential predicate" is "that a punishment must not by its
severity be degrading to human dignity," especially torture.
b.. "A severe punishment that is obviously inflicted in wholly arbitrary
fashion."
c.. "A severe punishment that is clearly and totally rejected throughout
society."
d.. "A severe punishment that is patently unnecessary."
Because it is the needless infliction of pain, torture is prohibited by the
Eighth Amendment--

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_...s_Constitution)

The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading
Treatment or Punishment was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly
in 1984 and entered into force on June 26, 1987.

It defines torture as any act by which:
severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental; is intentionally
inflicted on a person; for such purposes as:

a.. obtaining from him/her or a third person information or a confession
b.. punishing him/her for an act s/he or a third person has committed or
is suspected of having committed
c.. intimidating or coercing him/her or a third person
d.. or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind;
when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with
the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in
an official capacity.*

*Amnesty International believes that acts of violence by private individuals
constitute torture when they are of the nature and severity envisaged by the
concept of torture in international standards and when the state has failed
to fulfill its obligation to provide effective protection against such acts
of
violence. --(http://www.amnestyusa.org/Reports_St...&n2=38&n3=1052)



"Lt. Col. V. Stuart Couch, a former Guantanamo Bay prosecutor and appellate
judge of the Navy-Marine Corps Court of Criminal Appeals, was scheduled to
appear before a House subcommittee today to testify about the use of
waterboarding and the legality of torture and other interrogation
techniques."

"In a March 31 Wall Street Journal story, Couch had said he had refused to
prosecute a suspected terrorist because he believed the evidence had been
tainted by torture."

""Waterboarding is torture, period," Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a former Navy
instructor of prisoner of war and terrorist hostage survival programs, said.
"I believe that we must reject the use of the waterboard for prisoners and
captives and cleanse this stain from our national honor.""
(http://wcbstv.com/national/hearing.w....2.563973.html)

End Quotes**

My neice's son was killed there last year. He was killed outright
while taking down a couple of al qaeda. His two friends were not so
lucky. They were captured and tortured to death.

Truly sad. But that does not mean that we, as a nation, should condone acts
of torture.

Many people, nations, and ideologies condone many different things that we,
as a nation, abhor and have made laws against, because we are a nation of
laws and recognize that vengeance is not justice.

Waterboarding causes NO pain, leaves NO mark, draws NO blood. OTOH,
cutting off the genitals and heads of our GI's DOES.

Torture is not merely defined by PAIN, it is also defined by SUFFERING,
whether physical/mental. (see quote from above)

You're a fool, Mark. You can get all the formal education you desire,
but you will remain a fool and a looser until the day you die.

I may very well be a fool, but I have the backing of people in the military,
who have been tortured, to support my argument. You, OTOH, have your hatred
to back your rantings.

My formal education has nothing to do with my beliefs concerning torture or
any other human rights, for that matter. I base my beliefs on morality and
decency. While as an agnostic, I *might* someday burn in hell. You certainly
will burn in hell (supposing of course that Christ ever existed), because
you are morally bankrupt and an anathema to Christ.

As long as I don't ever become what you are, I can accept being a loser in
your jaundiced eyes.

Op

Davie

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:34:05 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

Not necessarily.

You would rather have your head chopped off than be waterboarded?
Hahahahahaha. You are a nitwit.

Davie

Poor little Davie. You can't seem to think beyond your hatred.

You seen not everyone who is waterboarded survives the ordeal. I believe
that I would much rather my head severed from my body and die instantly,
rather than die a slow and torturous death, akin to slowly drowning. You,
OTOH, will undoubtedly know exactly what it feels like to have your head cut
from your shoulders and tell me that it is much more painful to lose ones
head in that manner than it is to slowly die from drowing, which I am sure
you have done at least once in your miserable life, as you are obviously
brain-dead!

HTH

Op

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:44:03 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

I couldn't make heads nor tails of what BC wrote.

That's because he is drunk --- again.

He very well might have been drunk when he posted, I have no idea, nor do I
care, but at least he will sober up, if he was drunk.

You, however, will remain a hate filled nihilist.

Op

waterboarding
 

"Allen" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Opus--Mark H. Bowen" wrote:

"Ray or Bobbi Adams" wrote in message
...

"rb608" wrote in message
news:%xsdj.6464$oh5.2546@trndny08...
"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
If waterboarding would save the life of your wife, children, and
boyfriend, would you be in favor of it? Yeah, me too.

Turn that around. Suppose your wife or child was mistakenly taken
captive by a foreign government who thought they had valuable
information. Would it be okay if they were waterboarded? Hell no;
and
that's the same outrage you should have when our country does it.

With all due respect, the false choice you posit is bull****. It
assumes
that you *know* you have the right person, you *know* they possess the
information you seek, you *know* that information is valid and timely,
and you *know* they will give you the correct information under
torture.
But, the fact is, you can know none of that with certainty before you
begin the torture. Further, even with information you glean in that
manner, you can't be certain it is truth or made up to stop the
torture.
IOW, you're going on an inhuman fishing expedition (OBROFF).

Torture is one of those crimes that simply cannot be excused. There
can
be no double standard. If we can do it to them, they can do it to us.
If we can do it to save our children, they can do it to our children
with
the same moral authority. I cannot excuse or condone that.

Joe F.

sure beats beheading

Not necessarily.

Op

As a guy who got waterboarded at SERE let me assure you that beheading
(which I admit to not having endured) is likely worse.

Are we assuming that everyone who is waterboarded survives?

If you were to know that you would not survive the torture, would you still
choose waterboarding?

Op

waterboarding
 

"Fishin Technician" wrote in
message ...

Obviously, you are a mindless **** head without a thought of his own.

HTH
Op

waterboarding
 

Opus,
Try to have a new happy new year, F/T


--
Fishin Technician
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waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:16:38 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

Anything else, your swash-buckling closet dweller?

No. I have succeeded in really ****ing you off. Mission acomplished.

d;o)

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:23:02 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

You seen not everyone who is waterboarded survives the ordeal.

What are you trying to say, nitwit?

Waterboarding does not kill. Leaves no mark. Draws no blood. There
isn't even pain. If you would take waterboarding over decapitation,
you really are a nitwit.

Davie

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:28:34 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

Are we assuming that everyone who is waterboarded survives?

If you were to know that you would not survive the torture, would you still
choose waterboarding?

There is no record of anyone dying from waterboarding. And, pray
tell, how the hell are you going to know whether you are going to live
or die during *real* torture. No one in the hell holes of Viet Nam
knew wether they were going to die, and they fought to survive.

Davie

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:35:25 -0800 (PST), BJConner
wrote:

But tomorrow I'll be sober, you will still be stupid and ugly.

You forgot rich, well hung, and a great fisherman.

d;o)

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:26:50 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

You, however, will remain a hate filled nihilist.

Your opinion. But you will remain a swishy gay, fat and homely,
without any love or friends in your life, struggling to make a living,
and will finally end up as a ward of the state because you didn't do
as I told you to do. You may be educated, Mark, but you are the
dumbest son of a bitch I have ever known.

My hate, btw, is only for those who would hurt the U.S. of A. I don't
hate you or anyone else on roff. Never have and never will. And talk
of hate -- read your last few posts to me. Totally unnecessary, for
you need not have entered the fray. You did so just to spew *your*
hate.

hth

Davie

waterboarding
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:35:25 -0800 (PST), BJConner
wrote:


But tomorrow I'll be sober, you will still be stupid and ugly.


You forgot rich, well hung, and a great fisherman.

d;o)

.... with very bad feet.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:16:38 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

Anything else, your swash-buckling closet dweller?

No. I have succeeded in really ****ing you off. Mission acomplished.

d;o)

Wrong again.

How on Earth could you be so wrong, so often and live with yourself?

Op

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:23:02 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

You seen not everyone who is waterboarded survives the ordeal.

What are you trying to say, nitwit?

That you pick out a typo ("seen" should have, obviously, read "see"), and
pretend that you didn't understand what I had written, says volumes about
your intellectual aptitude and your character.

It's not what I am saying, it's what you are saying that is so disturbing.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigat...ory?id=1322866

Waterboarding does not kill. Leaves no mark. Draws no blood. There
isn't even pain. If you would take waterboarding over decapitation,
you really are a nitwit.

So you claim that no one has ever died as a result of waterboarding and that
it causes no pain, right.

Algerian War
"The technique was also used during the Algerian War (1954-1962). The French
journalist Henri Alleg, who was subjected to waterboarding by French
paratroopers in Algeria in 1957, is one of only a few people to have
described in writing the first-hand experience of being waterboarded. His
book The Question, published in 1958 with a preface by Jean-Paul Sartre (and
subsequently banned in France until the end of the Algerian War in 1962)
discusses the experience of being strapped to a plank, having his head
wrapped in cloth and positioned beneath a running tap:

The rag was soaked rapidly. Water flowed everywhe in my mouth, in my
nose, all over my face. But for a while I could still breathe in some small
gulps of air. I tried, by contracting my throat, to take in as little water
as possible and to resist suffocation by keeping air in my lungs for as long
as I could. But I couldn't hold on for more than a few moments. I had the
impression of drowning, and a terrible agony, that of death itself, took
possession of me. In spite of myself, all the muscles of my body struggled
uselessly to save me from suffocation. In spite of myself, the fingers of
both my hands shook uncontrollably. "That's it! He's going to talk," said a
voice.

The water stopped running and they took away the rag. I was able to
breathe. In the gloom, I saw the lieutenants and the captain, who, with a
cigarette between his lips, was hitting my stomach with his fist to make me
throw out the water I had swallowed.[29]

Alleg has stated that the incidence of "accidental" death of prisoners being
subjected to waterboarding in Algeria was "very frequent.""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

Hey, think of it like this. You're in very despicable company: "The Khmer
Rouge at the Tuol Sleng prison in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, used waterboarding
as a method of torture between 1975 and 1979."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

Op


Davie

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:28:34 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

Are we assuming that everyone who is waterboarded survives?

If you were to know that you would not survive the torture, would you
still
choose waterboarding?

There is no record of anyone dying from waterboarding.

Wrong again! You really should learn to do some basic research before you
make outrageous claims.

And, pray
tell, how the hell are you going to know whether you are going to live
or die during *real* torture.

What does knowing whether one is or is not going to survive torture have to
do with the question I asked Allen?

It was a very direct and specific question pertaining to the *real* torture
known as waterboarding and survivability was not assumed?

I know it's really more than anyone should ask of you, but attempt a
coherent thought once in a while.

The question to Allen was whether he'd rather die by waterboarding, or by
having his head severed from his shoulders, not whether he knew if he would
survive being tortured. People have actually died during waterboarding,
whether you want to believe it is irrelavant.

No one in the hell holes of Viet Nam
knew wether they were going to die, and they fought to survive.

And?

Davie

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
My hate, btw, is only for those who would hurt the U.S. of A.

And therein lies the heart of much of the disagreement on this (and many
other activities of this administration). Despite our differences on the
political perspective, we both share that love for this country. From my
perspective, however, the U. S. of A. isn't just the geography between lines
on a map or the people who live here, it's the system of laws and principles
under which we live and the freedoms guaranteed by those laws. When those
principles are compromised and those laws disregarded, that's a direct
attack on the U. S. of A.

From that perspective, when our President and his administration orders or
sanctions the torture of other human beings, that hurts the U. S. of A.
When the President orders illegal warrantless spying on American citizens
contrary to Constitutional guarantees, that's a direct assault on the U. S.
of A. When this administration intentionally reveals covert intelligence
assets for political purposes, that hurts the U. S. of A. When the Justice
Department is perverted to serve as a political arm of the Republican Party,
that's an attack on the U. S. of A. The list of ways in which this
administration has hurt the U. S. of A. goes on and on. As a result of GWB
& his cronies, we are less safe, less free, less secure, less strong, and
much less the U. S. of A we both love than when he took office. As I see
it, George W. Bush has hurt the U. S. of A. far more than any brown-skinned
boggeymen with which this administration tries to terrorize us.

Joe F.

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:26:50 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

You, however, will remain a hate filled nihilist.

Your opinion.

Empirical formed overe many years.

But you will remain a swishy gay, fat and homely,
without any love or friends in your life, struggling to make a living,
and will finally end up as a ward of the state because you didn't do
as I told you to do. You may be educated, Mark, but you are the
dumbest son of a bitch I have ever known.

Yes Davieboy, everyone is aware that you derive happiness by counting your
pennies nightly.

My hate, btw, is only for those who would hurt the U.S. of A.

It must be torturously painful to hate one's self so much.

I don't
hate you or anyone else on roff. Never have and never will.

You shouldn't lie to yourself like that. It can't be healthy.

And talk
of hate -- read your last few posts to me.

Hell Davieboy, I wouldn't waste my energies hating you, I merely pity hate
filled people like you.

Totally unnecessary, for
you need not have entered the fray.

And it was a requirement of life that compelled you to jump in head first?

You did so just to spew *your*
hate.

For all that is good and decent in America, I did so to counterbalance your
hateful and illiterate lies.

HTH

Op


hth

Davie

waterboarding
 

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 04:52:37 GMT, "rb608"
wrote:

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
My hate, btw, is only for those who would hurt the U.S. of A.

And therein lies the heart of much of the disagreement on this (and many
other activities of this administration). Despite our differences on the
political perspective, we both share that love for this country. From my
perspective, however, the U. S. of A. isn't just the geography between lines
on a map or the people who live here, it's the system of laws and principles
under which we live and the freedoms guaranteed by those laws. When those
principles are compromised and those laws disregarded, that's a direct
attack on the U. S. of A.

From that perspective, when our President and his administration orders or
sanctions the torture of other human beings, that hurts the U. S. of A.
When the President orders illegal warrantless spying on American citizens
contrary to Constitutional guarantees, that's a direct assault on the U. S.
of A. When this administration intentionally reveals covert intelligence
assets for political purposes, that hurts the U. S. of A. When the Justice
Department is perverted to serve as a political arm of the Republican Party,
that's an attack on the U. S. of A. The list of ways in which this
administration has hurt the U. S. of A. goes on and on. As a result of GWB
& his cronies, we are less safe, less free, less secure, less strong, and
much less the U. S. of A we both love than when he took office. As I see
it, George W. Bush has hurt the U. S. of A. far more than any brown-skinned
boggeymen with which this administration tries to terrorize us.

Joe F.

Well said and rightly spoken. True patriots will agree.

/daytripper ()

waterboarding
 

"Fishin Technician" wrote in
message ...

Opus,
Try to have a new happy new year, F/T


--
Fishin Technician

Why wouldn't I? I don't plan on being waterboarded (read: tortured) anytime
in the near future.

Op

waterboarding
 

In article ,
"Opus--Mark H. Bowen" wrote:

As a guy who got waterboarded at SERE let me assure you that beheading
(which I admit to not having endured) is likely worse.

Are we assuming that everyone who is waterboarded survives?

If you were to know that you would not survive the torture, would you still
choose waterboarding?

Op

Well, I guess you're asking if I knew I was going to die which I prefer?

I'd have to say the beheading certainly.

I'm sure that there are people that have died while/after waterboarding.
It's stressful and damn unpleasant and if there were pre-existing
medical condition it could well trigger a fatal event. It was used at
SERE to make certain hard cases (me being not bright enough to realize I
was about to get labeled such) that they enemy WILL get the info from
you and waterboarding was a pretty safe way to show you the mildest
thing they will do. It was a good lesson/ I learned it well.

100% of people who are beheaded die. (OK, I'll admit I didn't research
that but I'll take a shot at it being true ;)

The point, I guess is that we're not going in and killing/maiming people
that are being questioned. If someone is reluctant and those in charge
believe there is time critical intelligence to be gained I'd say break
out the plank.

waterboarding
 

Allen wrote:



If someone is reluctant and those in charge
believe there is time critical intelligence to be gained I'd say break
out the plank.


not that i agree with you at all, but...um...you do know who is "in
charge", eh? the slippery slope is...well...slippery. and the
dumbasses in charge seem to enjoy the ride down way too much, imo.

jeff

waterboarding
 

"Allen" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Opus--Mark H. Bowen" wrote:

As a guy who got waterboarded at SERE let me assure you that beheading
(which I admit to not having endured) is likely worse.

Are we assuming that everyone who is waterboarded survives?

If you were to know that you would not survive the torture, would you
still
choose waterboarding?

Op

Well, I guess you're asking if I knew I was going to die which I prefer?

I'd have to say the beheading certainly.

Yep, that is what I was askin'. My point was that I'd rather die quickly
than suffer for an extended period before death.

While I have never experienced waterboarding--the description of what takes
place is enough to let me know that I don't want to experience waterboarding
either.

I'm sure that there are people that have died while/after waterboarding.

There is a record of such.

It's stressful and damn unpleasant and if there were pre-existing
medical condition it could well trigger a fatal event. It was used at
SERE to make certain hard cases (me being not bright enough to realize I
was about to get labeled such) that they enemy WILL get the info from
you and waterboarding was a pretty safe way to show you the mildest
thing they will do. It was a good lesson/ I learned it well.

Not trying to be a smartass, but would you have considered waterboarding to
be a mild form of "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques"/torture, if you were
exposed to it over and over for many days or weeks?

100% of people who are beheaded die. (OK, I'll admit I didn't research
that but I'll take a shot at it being true ;)

Seems a reasonable assumption.

The point, I guess is that we're not going in and killing/maiming people
that are being questioned. If someone is reluctant and those in charge
believe there is time critical intelligence to be gained I'd say break
out the plank.

Would you condone attaching electrical devises to one's genitals, or gouging
someone's eyes out as well? (These may be poor examples, but I have never
contemplated the various forms of "Enhanced Interrogation
Techniques"/torture, and I am sure that you are much better versed in
techniques that would not necessarily cause observable physical damage or
harm, having gone thru SERE training and whatnot) If so, my point is: Aren't
you distinguishing between forms of torture? I that the U.S. should never
condone torture and certainly not codify the forms of torture, as to those
that are grudingly acceptable and those that might be more questionable.
Jeff's slippery slope, ya know.

I am not so much worried about our enemies treatment--per se--but the
message that officially condoned torture sends to the world about us as a
people. I know that others nations practice torture as a matter of course,
but I'd like to think that we, as a nation, are better than that. I also
know that, during times of war, horrible things happen to individuals and
groups of individuals, which will alter their moral compasses. These
situations should be rare, I would hope, and certainly not encouraged by our
political and military leaders.

It is my opinion, that if we allow "Enhanced Interrogation
Techniques"/torture to become common place in our arsenal of intelligence
gathering, we have abandoned our constitutional beliefs and are no better
than those we call our enemies.

And what about those so-called enemy combatants that are handed over to us
by questionable allies. As we have seen, in Afghanistan, tribalism creates
strange bed-fellows. It is know that members of the Norther Alliance handed
over territorial rivals to us as enemy combatants, who were merely rivals to
a particular warlord and not an actual enemy combatant/Taliban, as we would
have difined them. If we put these people through "Enhanced Interrogation
Techniques"/torture techniques and they were actually friendly to us, what
harm have we done to our strategic objectives. It is my contention that we
would be creating an enemy out of a friend in such cases.

No matter how the words above appear to you, I am not criticizing you, or
trying to provoke you. I just want to understand your position, and make
certain that my position is understood.

Regards,

Op

waterboarding
 

"Opus--Mark H. Bowen" wrote in message
...

*Correction*

I *believe* that the U.S. should never condone torture and certainly not
codify the forms of torture, as to those that are grudingly acceptable and
those that might be more questionable. Jeff's slippery slope, ya know.

Op

waterboarding
 

Opus--Mark H. Bowen wrote:s.

It is my opinion, that if we allow "Enhanced Interrogation
Techniques"/torture to become common place in our arsenal of intelligence
gathering, we have abandoned our constitutional beliefs and are no better
than those we call our enemies.

For the most part, that's true. But the thing is, we *are* no
better than those we call our enemies and we never have been.
The myth of some inherent ethical or moral superiority adhering
to Americans because they're American is just that: a myth.
Which is exactly *why* the guiding principles of the
Constitution--and our ability (so far) to submit to them--are so
important.

The fact that so many are so ready and willing to find excuses
for throwing out them the moment the going gets rough only
underscores, to my mind, just *how* important it is to keep and
protect them at all cost--rather than rely on knee-jerk hubris
about our own personal specialness.

- JR

waterboarding
 

"JR" wrote in message
...
Opus--Mark H. Bowen wrote:s.

It is my opinion, that if we allow "Enhanced Interrogation
Techniques"/torture to become common place in our arsenal of intelligence
gathering, we have abandoned our constitutional beliefs and are no better
than those we call our enemies.

For the most part, that's true. But the thing is, we *are* no better than
those we call our enemies and we never have been.

I agree with what you say, JR. I'm not much of a wordsmith and was simply
trying to convey that we should follow the tenets of our constitution. I
have my own opinions about our nations foreign policies, but didn't want to
start a ****-fight by expressing them.

The myth of some inherent ethical or moral superiority adhering to
Americans because they're American is just that: a myth. Which is exactly
*why* the guiding principles of the Constitution--and our ability (so far)
to submit to them--are so important.

I was not trying to allude to an ethical or moral superiority that we hold
over other peoples. I was attempting to state just what you did in the
latter statement above. I believe that the U.S. Constitution forbids
"Enhanced Interrogation
Techniques"/torture under the Eight Amendment.

The fact that so many are so ready and willing to find excuses for
throwing out them the moment the going gets rough only underscores, to my
mind, just *how* important it is to keep and protect them at all
cost--rather than rely on knee-jerk hubris about our own personal
specialness.

Words to live by, IMMHO.
"Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve
neither security nor liberty." (Benjamin Franklin)

There are many that would say that the times have changed and things that
were true during the 1700s are simply too antiquated to apply today. I don't
believe this to be true, as the fear of terror (state supported or other)
was just as salient in Franklin's time as it is today.

Op

- JR

waterboarding
 

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 10:36:40 -0500, JR wrote:

For the most part, that's true. But the thing is, we *are* no
better than those we call our enemies and we never have been.
The myth of some inherent ethical or moral superiority adhering
to Americans because they're American is just that: a myth.
Which is exactly *why* the guiding principles of the
Constitution--and our ability (so far) to submit to them--are so
important.

The fact that so many are so ready and willing to find excuses
for throwing out them the moment the going gets rough only
underscores, to my mind, just *how* important it is to keep and
protect them at all cost--rather than rely on knee-jerk hubris
about our own personal specialness.

John, our country has a history of mis-use of the Constitution.

Slavery being the most outlandish.

Treatment of native Americans

Roosevelt's internment of Japanese Americans.

Robert Kennedy wire tapping Americans.

I am sure that torture was used against the Germans and Japanese
prisoners in WWII

Waterboarding, if it obtains information that saves lives, is not only
ok, it is imperative if we are to win this war (not Iraq or
Afghanistan). If the information is there we HAVE to obtain it, or
lose many lives.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS...ml#cnnSTCVideo

I know, I know, it is Newt and none of you liberals like Newt, but
listen with an open heart and mind. I hope what he says does not
happen, but I am deathly afraid it will.

Dave
EOT for me.

waterboarding
 

On 29-Dec-2007, Fishin Technician
wrote:

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Let me be perfectly clear about this:

Jesus s Christ - if you believe all that bull ****
Did not die for me!

And the Ameriacn soldier does not fight for the American people or for me in
Iraq and Afghnistan
What the **** do I care about Iraq and Afghanistan but you are too stupid
and duped by Patriotism to relaize that they are fighting for the
almightydollar
Thats it - Thats all there is
The Almighty dollar.

To make Bush, Cheney, Rove, Quail et al - even wealthier
If you do not see this you are a blind fool!

Fred

waterboarding
 

Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue.

QUOTE

The Right Fright:
Fear and Terror
by Lawrence M. Hinman
Baltimore Sun, Op-ed, October 21, 2004


Those with no fear are fools, underestimating real dangers or
overestimating their own abilities. Those with too much fear see
threats as greater than they are, and they often underestimate their
ability to respond effectively to danger. They are afraid to risk life
and limb but fail to understand that these are often of less value
than honor, integrity, freedom and other similar values.

Our goal in life - and in foreign policy as well - is not to be
fearless but to have appropriate fears: to fear the right thing at the
right time, in the right proportion and in the right way.

Terrorism seeks to create disproportionate and distorted fear, and
terrorists gain power that would otherwise be far beyond their grasp
through the manipulation and distortion of our fears. They seek to
have us fear the wrong things, to do so in a way that is
disproportionate to the actual level of threat and to act in
inappropriate ways in response to those fears. In so doing, they gain
a control over our lives far beyond that justified by their actual
power.

Terrorists are seldom alone in the manipulation of fear, and one of
the great ironies of terrorism is that its power is often increased by
politicians and media who see the manipulation of fear as furthering
their own agendas. These politicians may join in exaggerating and
distorting our fears and then - here is where they part company from
the terrorists themselves - they depict themselves as the answer to
these inflated and distorted fears.

They exaggerate the seriousness of the threat in order to highlight
themselves as the answer to these growing concerns. News media,
concerned with increasing market share, ensure that this message
reaches the widest possible audience. Critics are often depicted as
out of touch with the real threats confronting a country, as leading
the country to an eventual cataclysmic disaster.

In this process, instigated by terrorists but amplified by local
politicians and news media, our appropriate fears are distorted. We
begin to fear the wrong things, to fear them in a way disproportionate
to their actual level of threat and to pursue courses of action that
respond to these misperceived threats. In the process, other important
fears either recede into the background or are attached to
inappropriate objects and ineffective patterns of response.

For example, we stop fearing the loss of civil liberties and instead
fear, in an exaggerated way, terrorist attacks. We fear that our way
of life is under attack, but then we curtail quintessentially American
freedoms in response to this fear.

We Americans need to recover our appropriate fears. We need to be
afraid of the potential damage that can be done by terrorists, but we
need to recognize that there are far greater threats to American life
and limb, threats that persist day after day.

Of the 208 terrorist attacks launched in the last year, only a handful
of them were directed against the United States; of the 625 people
killed in terrorist attacks, 35 were Americans. At the same time, many
other threats - depicted far less prominently in the news and
discussed far less frequently by politicians - have put more Americans
at greater risk, including threats to the environment, inadequate
health care resources and a reduction of funding for education. Yet we
largely have ignored those threats and have been indifferent to the
development of effective responses to them.

There is no shortage of greater threats. More Americans died from
traffic fatalities in September 2001 than in the attacks on the twin
towers. Every three days, tobacco kills the same number of people who
died in the World Trade Center attacks. About 195,000 Americans die
every year from avoidable medical mistakes - the equivalent of a 9/11
attack every six days.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt said that the only thing we have to
fear is fear itself. But fear is not a bad thing. In fact, it can be a
fitting and helpful response to genuine threats. The absence of fear
can lead to miscalculations and mistakes. But fear must be directed
toward the real threats and must be proportionate to the actual level
of danger.

When we allow our fears to be hijacked, to be distorted by the
terrorists and by politicians who manipulate those exaggerated and
highly selective fears for their own purposes, we no longer have
appropriate fears.

When we allow ourselves to embark on courses of action that exacerbate
the threats against us and trample some of our most precious freedoms
in the process, we allow a distorted and disproportionate fear to lead
us down a path that is ultimately destructive to ourselves and to our
most fundamental values.

We do not need to stop being afraid. We just need to be afraid of the
right things and in the right way.

UNQUOTE

http://ethics.sandiego.edu/Applied/Military/torture.asp

By fighting among yourselves, and being extremely hateful to each
other on these issues, you are giving the terrorists and the
politicians who would use the situation to control you, even more
power, and furthering their aims.

MC

waterboarding
 

"Mike" wrote


By fighting among yourselves, and being extremely hateful to each
other on these issues, you are giving the terrorists and the
politicians who would use the situation to control you, even more
power, and furthering their aims.

MC


I won't often waste the time to post " I agree"

But,

most of the greatest damage that has been done to this country since 9-10-01
has been done by ourselves, to ourselves.

It is cowardly to willingly give up important ideals and values that should
define our strengths, to gain some tiny illusion of increased physical
security, and cowards can't retain freedom for long.

------------------

Certainly and obviously there are real dangers and increased real world
security such as scans in airports and such are fitting to that danger.
Nobody I know denies the real threat, but many I know magnify it to the
point they become one themselves.

The real key to fighting terrorism is friends ... normal people willing to
go out of their way to warn us about the weirdos and wackos out there, it's
called human intelligence, I believe, It's a kind of Neighborhood
Watch, and it demands that WE be decent enough that others are willing to
help us and to make the effort to report the odd and the suspect.

Yet "we" via our leaders have made far more new enemies that friends the
last 7 years. And we have become enemies to ourselves, wasting valuable
fighting spirit on each other, when we need it all for the real enemies.

------------------

Each time we, as individuals, and in mass, via our elected representatives,
weaken our nation by further dividing it, we are the tools of the enemy.
Disagreement, discussion, hard won compromise, sure. But nastiness
beyond reason, nastiness that further divides, nastiness that actually makes
reason nearly impossible, nastiness that stalls our government and all but
destroys even a silly forum on the 'Net ... these are the tools of bin
Laden and his allies, whether knowingly used as such, or not.

We need to all work to make America stronger ... and it should be clear I
don't mean just buy more bombs ... we are crumbling from within.

"United we Stand ..... " and it never meant "in perfect agreement" ...
rather more like "watching each other's backs regardless ........"

waterboarding
 

Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip

Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

--
Ken Fortenberry

waterboarding
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
et...
Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip

Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

--
Ken Fortenberry

And then Kenny has a hissy fit.

Op

waterboarding
 

On Dec 31, 12:39 am, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip

Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

--
Ken Fortenberry

You are a typical terrorist. Prepared to use any means in your power
to force your views on others, you lie, use propaganda, coerce,
threaten, and ridicule them, until they knuckle under or give up. It
is just as well you don´t have any real power, or any credibility left
on here. In the real world you would be very quickly eliminated if you
tried to behave in such a fashion. You only do it here because you can
get away with it with seeming impunity.

Just as one can not wage war on the Fortenberry´s of this world,
merely resist them to the last. One can not wage war on terror. Terror
is an emotion, an emotion which engenders panic.

You can resist the effects of terrorism, and avoid panic, by not
allowing yourself to be terrified by either terrorists or
politicians.

A hand full of terrorists is not a serious threat to any major
country. Panic as a result of terrorist actions is. The loss of civil
liberties initiated by politicians trying to gain greater control is.
Large panicked sections of the population is.

These things are all easily avoided by sensible people.

If you are against terrorism, as every civilised person must be, then
you must also be against torture, because torture is merely terrorism
on an individual.

People who torture others are terrorists by definition. They wish to
gain information or other things, maybe even pleasure, by terrifying
or coercing somebody into giving them what they want.

That is exactly what the terrorists want as well. Just like
Fortenberry.

Do not give it to them.

MC

waterboarding
 

Mike wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip
Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

You are a typical terrorist.
the usual drivel snipped

A typical terrorist ? SPLORK VANG MU !!

You're a hoot and a half Your Loony Mikeness.

Carry on.

--
Ken Fortenberry

waterboarding
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
et...
Mike wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip
Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

You are a typical terrorist. the usual drivel snipped

A typical terrorist ? SPLORK VANG MU !!

You're a hoot and a half Your Loony Mikeness.

Carry on.

--
Ken Fortenberry

And another hissy fit dispalyed by Kenny.

Op

waterboarding
 

On Dec 31, 1:19 am, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
Mike wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip
Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

You are a typical terrorist.
the usual drivel snipped

A typical terrorist ? SPLORK VANG MU !!

You're a hoot and a half Your Loony Mikeness.

Carry on.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Unfortunately for you. I am right, and your behaviour continually
reinforces that. Quite a few people here are also perfectly well aware
that I am right. You use every single opportunity to attack and
denigrate me, and others who disagree with you, even ruining perfectly
normal threads with your nonsense. Like all terrorists, you are not
only fanatically convinced that you are right, you will do anything at
all to force others into accepting it, you also have a screw loose, as
no normal person would do these things.

I will never give in to you, you dont worry me at all any more,
neither does your propaganda and lies, you are among other things a
proven liar many times over, and per definition an ignorant bigot.
Every time you post this stuff you merely convince more people of your
fanaticism and imbalance.

MC