OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

Charlie Choc wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:31:10 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:


i'm flying in to salt lake city, renting a tiny car, and driving up.
any suggestions about the route based on your experience?


I would suggest I-80 to Rock Springs, then up US 191 either all the way to
Jackson and up through Grand Teton, or get off 191 at Farson and up through
Lander and Dubois. Both routes will take you through some nice scenery, the
route through Dubois being prettier but also longer. The fastest and shortest
way is up I-15 to Idaho Falls and from there to West Yellowstone.


thanks...how many hours does it usually take you to get up to west
yellowstone or raynolds??

jeff

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:13:52 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:

thanks...how many hours does it usually take you to get up to west
yellowstone or raynolds??

From where? It's probably 3 hours from Jackson going through the park(s).
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

jeff miller wrote:

i have no idea what we did to or for sadie, our mainly golden, but dash
of other breeds, stray.

Sadie doesn't sound like a good candidate for a shock collar, to say the
least.

This Anatolian Shepherd was something else, man. I think it's a breed
thing. They're bred to protect (not herd) sheep and to work
independently. What Hank wants to do is, as far as I can tell,
characteristic of the breed: He gets up on high ground and searches in
the far distance for anything moving, and if he sees something he wants
to take off after it. This has led to some crazy chases.

It was either the shock collar or back to the pound for Hank. His
instinctive behavior is probably what put him in the pound in the first
place, because he's otherwise a well behaved dog.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

Charlie Choc wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:13:52 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:


thanks...how many hours does it usually take you to get up to west
yellowstone or raynolds??


From where? It's probably 3 hours from Jackson going through the park(s).

salt lake...

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:31:58 -0400, jeff miller wrote:

Charlie Choc wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:13:52 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:


thanks...how many hours does it usually take you to get up to west
yellowstone or raynolds??


From where? It's probably 3 hours from Jackson going through the park(s).

salt lake...

I don't go that way, but I'd guess about 5 hours going up through Idaho, maybe
8+ taking the scenic route.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

WARNING ..WAY LONG, WAY OT, WAY BORING
 

"jeff miller" wrote

the loud voice thing has always worked for me... but, no hang up here. i
don't think the butt swat routine on an isolated or single purpose basis
is the same as the ECs or salt shot, butt g



FWIW, dog training is nearly impossible to discuss ( past theory and the
simplest techniques and tasks ) without everyone involved actually watching
the specific situation under discussion ... specific dog, specific task,
specific set of circumstances ( wind, water, distractions, time of day ) and
knowing that animal's nature and background on those issues.

Even then the language of training is so imprecise that I once saw
certifiably the two best retriever trainers of history ( Carr and Lardy )
'arguing' a point about a particular situation. From the outside, however,
it was clear they were saying the same thing, just using the words
differently ( someday training with have a technical language like other
complex tasks, but not for now )

I'm no genius but I've done and tried a variety of challenges in my life,
like we all have. Training ( to field trial standard ) is the single most
challenging of those things ... I spent years in 'apprenticeship' AFTER I
had already been working as a full time trainer for several years to learn
the craft and only after years of serious study with a master did I start to
understand how little I had known back when I "knew it all" ... this is NOT
"fall off the log simple" stuff when you get to very high standards and
unnatural demands.

I once asked my mentor, Rex Carr, why he hadn't written a book. He
pointed to a dog, one that had just worked through a complicated and
difficult learning situation ... a situation that would have appeared
mundane to casual observation ...but that had required brilliance on Rex's
part to successfully negotiate. He pointed ... and asked, " Can YOU
describe, in words, what just happened here with him?" I thought hard,
"No." Rex, "Me neither."

So, using the words I use
..... "training" starts when the dog honestly knows what I want but isn't
doing it
.... "teaching" comes long before training and "teaching" is the sole topic
covered in most books. "Teaching" is, and should be, the major focus, and
it must always be done very thoroughly using different methods ( as a
teacher of humans explains the same thing in multiple ways to cement
concept, not just rote regurgitation )
.... if in ANY doubt
..teach more, and assume that is what is needed,
BUT,

It is pure fallacy to think that because Fido knows what you want, he will
do it ... Walt Disney thinking, I call it. Sure, up to a point this
appears the case, Fido chooses the mild pleasantness of your approval and
avoiding the mild unpleasantness of your 'loud voice' over what nature
would, otherwise, have him doing. But that tip-over point is reached very
soon when you are dealing with very high powered dogs and very unnatural
tasks.




"Training," as I use it, clearly implies conflict
... you want something he doesn't
... and, thus, "pressure" will come into the equation, as will the
relationship between that particular pair of animals, trainer and dog.




"Pressure" in training isn't a euphemism so much as an all inclusive term
for everything from physically pushing pups little butt to the ground while
you say "sit' because THIS time that distraction over there is more
important then you, to 'extreme' measures when Fido simply refuses to take a
cast off a scented point and into the cold water and wind on a particular
day, even though his schooling is clearly up to the task.


"Pressure" also applies to all the physical, ... ah, pressures .. we put on
Fido in the teaching parts of our work ... it's silly to think Fido 'likes'
a light tug with a choke collar, it's 'painful' and your loud voice
scares him, no?


When using various pressures ... what "it takes" varies
....... largely it depends on how un-natural what you want from the dog is
and
your relationship with the dog ..... Marks' 'alpha male' thing ..ah,
sortaG





"Pressure" is used constantly when working dogs ... or just hinted at by
many people ( it's usually best to not threaten, just do and clear the
air, but human nature is the biggest obstacle to training .. )




BUT, "Punishment" is something rare in quality dog training ... and the
best trainers never "punish" for task, per se.




----------------------------
-----------------------------

This is getting too long, and I'm beginning to see how impossible the job of
really communicating on this topic, via this media, is ... so,
leaving out reams
----------------------------------------------
------------------------------------



IF YOU WANT TO MINIMIZE THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF PRESSURE PUT ON YOUR DOG ...
over his lifetime,
and ,
STILL obtain very high standards on very unnatural tasks


Use the MINIMUM pressure that will change behavior in all your "teaching"
( and let's not lie about the teaching, we make Fido uncomfortable when we
push him back down into a sit position or whatever ... Fido only really
understands the physical until we condition sounds and signals to that
physical, via "teaching" )

On the very rare, but nonetheless very real, occasions when Fido does know
exactly what you want but simply refuses ( ASIDE: most dogs this actually
happens roughly once a year, and it is my belief that it is a natural carry
over of the young wolf testing the 'alpha' to see if the old man still has
what it takes to lead )
..... apply the most pressure the dog can survive ( emotionally )

The combination of those two will avoid nagging ... the biggest accumulative
unpleasantness in most dog's interaction with humans.






Jeff, you mention the repulsive things you've seen in the name of training.
I'm positive I've done and do, things you'd put in that category ... some
were, indeed, repulsive,
.... way back when when I "knew everything about training"
....but the ones now are in the second mode above.




I will now take a minute to explain ( imho ) why the e-collar gets such a
bad rap in circles slightly interested in dog training ... ie. most of the
culture

Marvin gets a book and starts teaching Fido .... let's say hand signals, to
keep in my realm ... teaching, show and tell, mild pressure that people are
acclimated to. Things go well, and Fido is 'handling' and responding
better than 90% of the dogs around. Marvin gets compliments and his ego
gets attached to Fido's work.



Then Marvin tries to advance to more unnatural levels of the tasks ... or,
Fido decides it's time to test Marvin's status as head dog .... and the
struggle begins.

Marvin repeatedly tries his loudest voice and 'acceptable' pressures ( nags,
and, ah, nags ) to no avail, indeed things seem to get worse ( they are ).

In desperation ( nearly always when Mr Joe Average Merican first thinks
that,
maybe, just maybe, he doesn't really understand training ) he visits a
"pro."

The pro ( if he's even decent ) checks out Fido's teaching level, and
relationship with Marvin but quickly sees what is happening. He applies
very large amounts of pressure ( certainly by Marvin's standards ) to Fido
and the beast nearly instantly 'salutes' and says "yes sir, Mr Marvin" and
the task in question appears greatly improved
( please note it's NOT 'the task" that the trainer improved, it's Fido's
attitude .. if Fido didn't know how to do it, no pressure could possibly
make him improve ... without more teaching ......... and teaching NEVER
produces instant results )




Marvin is somewhat repulsed at what has happened to his dog but thrilled at
the result. He trots home and begins even more complicated tasks, ones
FIDO is NOT taught adequately. Fido, of course, fails.

Marvin ( and as an important aside ... the " I love my doggie, whole
bunches" types are ALWAYS the ones that become the most vicious in this
progression ) reflects on how tons of pressure "seemed" to work last time
and puts tons on Fido again.

But,
This time Fido is NOT arguing, he's undereducated and confused.

and he'll respond very negatively to the heavy pressure
.... all sorts of very ugly things can happen.



BUT Marvin will "act Republican" and "stay the course" applying
more and more pressure to more and more inappropriate situations, thus
CAUSING more and more situations he'll view as requiring pressure. Marvin
has seen "a magic fix" and honestly believes it was the tool that was the
magic, not the dog knowledge of the tool's user.



Marvin travels far and wide, nearly torturing Fido. But Fidos ( all of
em ) are tough and he learns to bear it ( much as he used to just cow,
uncertain and scared when Marvin erupted in loud noises over things not
understood ) and makes some progress
......( FAR less than he would have if Marvin had gone back to teaching mode
and realized that WELL OVER 95% of the 'mistakes' dogs make ... even older,
very experienced dogs ... are 'didn't understand' issues NOT "**** you"
issues )
.... and Marvin soon becomes the 'expert' (if not pro ) in the eyes of
beginners and soon he starts another 'dog lover' on the path down this
spiral.

I tell my clients, because I've been there, done that, myself. You will
go through three stages as a trainer.
1) You won't know anything, suffer, toss and turn at night and try to find
news ways to explain yourself to the dog .. when it doesn't go well ... you
blame, you.
2) You will "know it all" and all the techniques and all the tools .
3) Stage three is similar to stage one ... you respect the weakness of your
knowledge enough to remain very flexible, very patient and to ALWAYS look
long and hard in the mirror before blaming Fido for anything ... anything


in stages 1 and 3 most people and their dogs do well .... many people are
disgusting in stage two, and many dogs ruined ..


Jeff, I've gone to all this typing NOT to argue, or because I think you want
ti read it
.... only because I want to help you, maybe, understand your 'repulsive, dog
loving' friend
.... likely, either he's stuck in phase 2
.....or what you are calling repulsive was actually, long term, the best way
to limit pressure on the dog
.... from the actions you describe, I'd guess phase 2.

The saddest things about field trials are (a) people, the majority, that
never get past 2 and (b) MOST dogs simply can NOT, regardless, achieve FT
level work, but rather than get a new dog with Big League talent, or be
content to toss a ball in the backyard, people keep trying to make Fido into
what he can never be (btw, this explains why most people 'unimpressed by "FT
dogs" ... the specimens they are seeing aren't impressive ... trust me,
the real deal brings tears to my eyes even after 40 years
..... but, maybe, he lucks into 'good enough' work often enough to keep the
people fooled, poor thing. FWIW, My guess, based on 38+ plus years, is
that starting with the best, most likely, blood available and given skilled
and patient training ( it takes Guide Dogs for the Blind 4 months to train a
dog ... roughly 4 years to make a competitive Open dog ) ... LESS than 3%
of Labs and a lot less of the other retriever breeds really have the right
stuff for the game ... surprising? why? what % of our kids have Big League
talent?


----------------------
--------------------

In the doubtful case you waded through all this this far,
sorry to bore
but, gad, a little more

--------------------------
-------------------------

Story:

I was working with Rex and had been a couple years. It was National time
and that year it was on the West Coast so all of his clients with qualified
dogs where visiting.

His normal, paid, help was sick and he called and asked if I'd come shoot
for him. At lunch time on the third day, he realized I hadn't worked any
of "my" ( I had been pro for years ) dogs in days. He had a magnum water
blind set up for those National qualifiers ( only the best 90 in the nation,
or so, any given year, qualify ) and feeling sorry for me said, "Get Samson
and run that blind." Samson was a high quality but young dog.

I put Rex's e-collar on Samson and left, as I always did at that stage in my
learning, the transmitter by Rex for his control.

I started trying to do this blind with my dog ( really was, I owned him )
and things went very badly. Sammy 'wouldn't' sit, 'wouldn't' cast ..
'wouldn't' nearly everything on this hyper-difficult test. I looked over
and Rex appeared totally absorbed in chatting with clients from all over the
country, trading gossip. I felt totally frustrated. Had I had that
transmitter, Sammy would have felt my frustration, not that I'm proud to say
that.

Finally, I started mumbling to 'myself' when Sam would make an error, "You
****ing asshole" or similar. The second mumble, Rex, who I thought was
oblivious to me and my difficulties, got out of his chair, walked to me and
poked his finger in my chest with enough obvious fierceness I honestly
thought he was going to hit me and backed away. He said, very firmly, and
in front of many of my heros, "I don't EVER want to hear you swear at a dog
again. The ONLY thing you have to be mad about is that fact that YOU have
not trained this dog well enough to do this test."

I spent a hour or so wanting to run and hide that afternoon, then realized
he had been 100% correct

... it was THE single, most generous, most
meaningful and most, yes, loving, thing that wonderful man ever did for me.

I honestly can't remember being mad at a dog, it's been so long. I often
pretend to be since they respond to that acting, but if I were to actually
get mad, I'd put the dog up .... period. Feel free, if you wish, to share
my story with your friend ... it was the first moment I glimpsed 'stage 3'
and I'll always be grateful for that chewing out.


-------------------

sorry for all this, must be important to me

... EOT for me


... yes I hear the sigh of relief

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

Charlie Choc wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:31:58 -0400, jeff miller wrote:


Charlie Choc wrote:


On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:13:52 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:



thanks...how many hours does it usually take you to get up to west
yellowstone or raynolds??


From where? It's probably 3 hours from Jackson going through the park(s).

salt lake...


I don't go that way, but I'd guess about 5 hours going up through Idaho, maybe
8+ taking the scenic route.

The scenic route would take 48 hours. :-)

(Assuming no driving at night.)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

WARNING ..WAY LONG, WAY OT, WAY BORING
 

Larry L wrote:
snip
sorry for all this, must be important to me

...

Please don't apologize. As a total neophyte and anxious
new trainer of my first gun dog I read every word. I was
hoping for a little more info on how to avoid the dreaded
Phase 2. ;-)

And a word or two on a related subject. In one of your
responses you gracefully evaded a snarky comment from
one of roff's **** stirrers about $1500 puppies. Well,
it just so happens my new puppy costs $1500. ;-)

No matter what you pay for a puppy up front, $200 to the
local shelter ($100 fee + $100 donation), $500 to the
Amish puppy mill or $1500 to a reputable breeder it will
amortize to insignificance over the life of the puppy.
When Kipper got sick at the end of his life he cost us
way more than $1500 at the U of I Vet Med Oncology Center
and his referring vet but we'd have gladly paid three times
that amount for another year of Kipper the Hound.

--
Ken Fortenberry

WARNING ..WAY LONG, WAY OT, WAY BORING
 

Ken Fortenberry wrote:

Larry L wrote:

snip
sorry for all this, must be important to me

...


Please don't apologize.

ditto to this comment, larry. ...your posts are informative and
interesting, and, thus far, you've been able to maintain your interest
in communicating rather than arguing. i too appreciate your shared
insight, experience, and wisdom on this and other subjects.


And a word or two on a related subject. In one of your
responses you gracefully evaded a snarky comment from
one of roff's **** stirrers about $1500 puppies. Well,
it just so happens my new puppy costs $1500. ;-)


oh brother..."**** stirrer"? ...now that's rich!

No matter what you pay for a puppy up front, $200 to the
local shelter ($100 fee + $100 donation), $500 to the
Amish puppy mill or $1500 to a reputable breeder it will
amortize to insignificance over the life of the puppy.
When Kipper got sick at the end of his life he cost us
way more than $1500 at the U of I Vet Med Oncology Center
and his referring vet but we'd have gladly paid three times
that amount for another year of Kipper the Hound.


and at the end of the life of your $1500 dog you'll no doubt feel the
same...as do i about my "free" dog. but then, that wasn't the original
question you decided to label as "snarky", was it? larry evaded nothing
in his response...he simply answered a straight-forward question in a
straight-forward manner.

WARNING ..WAY LONG, WAY OT, WAY BORING
 

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:47:42 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:

Ken Fortenberry wrote:

Larry L wrote:

snip
sorry for all this, must be important to me

...


Please don't apologize.

ditto to this comment, larry. ...your posts are informative and
interesting, and, thus far, you've been able to maintain your interest
in communicating rather than arguing. i too appreciate your shared
insight, experience, and wisdom on this and other subjects.


And a word or two on a related subject. In one of your
responses you gracefully evaded a snarky comment from
one of roff's **** stirrers about $1500 puppies. Well,
it just so happens my new puppy costs $1500. ;-)


oh brother..."**** stirrer"? ...now that's rich!

No matter what you pay for a puppy up front, $200 to the
local shelter ($100 fee + $100 donation), $500 to the
Amish puppy mill or $1500 to a reputable breeder it will
amortize to insignificance over the life of the puppy.
When Kipper got sick at the end of his life he cost us
way more than $1500 at the U of I Vet Med Oncology Center
and his referring vet but we'd have gladly paid three times
that amount for another year of Kipper the Hound.


and at the end of the life of your $1500 dog you'll no doubt feel the
same...as do i about my "free" dog. but then, that wasn't the original
question you decided to label as "snarky", was it? larry evaded nothing
in his response...he simply answered a straight-forward question in a
straight-forward manner.

Um, excuse me, Hillary, Barack...any chance you ladies would cut the
bickering in what you both said was a BS-free little corner of
ROFF...maybe you could just sorta blame it on Stephohnopuhlese...you
know, like good little Democrats...?

TC,
R

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

"jeff miller" wrote

.. i got lost in
the mountains once, and she kept close with me the 8 hours it took me to
find a road.

i, and the rest of us, *must* be treated to a narrative of that little
adventure.

and, regarding pj's relationship with smoke and rush (especially the
former), i have never seen more devotion and love expended towards a human
child than his for those two dogs. no doubt he can be rougher than most
folks with those he loves, but he did one helluva job with them. smoke was
like a computer game; he would perform as well for me as he would for jim.
he still keeps the mount of the last duck smoke retrieved in his den.

yfitp
wayno

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

"Charlie Choc" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:31:58 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:

Charlie Choc wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:13:52 -0400, jeff miller

wrote:


thanks...how many hours does it usually take you to get up to west
yellowstone or raynolds??


From where? It's probably 3 hours from Jackson going through the
park(s).

salt lake...

I don't go that way, but I'd guess about 5 hours going up through Idaho,
maybe
8+ taking the scenic route.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

jeffie, if the above estimates are based on actual "choc speed", you can
figure it would take me or jim about half that time. :)

yfitp
wayno

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:08:08 -0400, "Wayne Harrison" wrote:

jeffie, if the above estimates are based on actual "choc speed", you can
figure it would take me or jim about half that time. :)

Why would you want to see how fast you could get by all that scenery? ;)
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

On Apr 20, 8:09 am, rw wrote:

Training collars are not for every dog. My Border Collie, for example,
would probably totally freak out. She's so eager to please that it's not
necessary in any case.

True enough. Our pound-adopted border collie was herding the chickens
a bit too harsh and I tried the collar on him. He did exactly that. He
was (and is) good with the chickens when we're there, but we were
hoping to reach the point where we could leave them together while
we're at work all day (we did this with all our other dogs). No go --
he'd keep them herded up all day, and when they tried to escape he'd
nip their tails, and pull tail feathers out. Now the chickens have
their own day pen, and Barney can't wait until he gets to round them
up and pen them in the morning before we leave.

A well trained dog is a joy. A poorly trained one is a headache.

I agree, except that "well" is defined by the owner. Not everyone
wants nor needs the same level of training. Our other dog, a brittany
spaniel, we got after a friend found her wandering the streets. She is
a wanderer and despite our best efforts have never been able to break
her of it. She just loves to go out into the desert and hunt
(anything), and when done she'll follow _any_ human she happens to
find. But she can give you a look that'll melt you, and she's a very
sweet and happy dog. I wish she'd retrieve doves for me but I've never
had enough hunting time to get it done. A few years ago I'm pretty
sure she was _very_ close to that breakthrough moment where it'd all
click for her, but then I got busy and didn't get back out. Now she's
seven years old and I don't know about the old saying about old dogs
and new tricks, but I've resigned myself to her not being a bird dog.

Jon.

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:15:27 -0400, Charlie Choc
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:08:08 -0400, "Wayne Harrison" wrote:

jeffie, if the above estimates are based on actual "choc speed", you can
figure it would take me or jim about half that time. :)

Why would you want to see how fast you could get by all that scenery? ;)

Well, to be fair, you probably have to get to the airport an extra, um,
day or two early to check yer truck...I'm curious, do they limit your
gas to three ounces in a quart ziploc...?

Hey, it might help, it might not...
R

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

"rw" wrote


Training collars are not for every dog. My Border Collie, for example,
would probably totally freak out.


although I declared EOT for me, I'll butt in briefly

modern, high quality ( I've product tested for years for the best brand ...
to remain unnamed to avoid spamming ;-) are highly adjustable


The collar I use now can be adjusted down to a level that I can just barely
feel on bare skin .... and at that level 99% of retrievers ( what I know )
don't even look quizical the first time they feel it ( if they do )

The other end of the collars spectrum is seriously uncomfortable ... but not
physically damaging, as many tools can be ... I HAVE shocked myself with it
on high and often do so in front of "love my doggie" new clients, to make a
point

The main ( imho ) reasons for wild overreaction in dogs is simply that Mr
Human WANTS to 'see" the effect ... most of my collar corrections ( teaching
if you read that post ) are not visible to most observers, only those VERY
carefully watching Fido .. ( indeed collars are made, and available, where
the transmitter beeps when a button is pressed ... this is designed
specifically so 'newbies' can TELL when an experienced trainer uses the
tool, i.e. students watching a pro ... otherwise they often can't .. )

..... THOUGHTFUL use of the tool is NOT characterized by the trainer
saying, "****, guess that was too much." ... after the fact


One more thing ... ( let me stick in that IMO ) ... one of the reasons
e-collars are so effective is because dogs don't "understand" the stimulus
.... it's super unnatural

To help you understand, .... everyone knows nearly any stray any dog will
run out of your yard if you pretend to pick up a rock to throw at them ...
even if nobody ever really has !!

This ( IMO ) is simply a genetic understanding of a danger ... passed down
from before that first wolf adopted someone to feed him... they can
'understand' the pain of a flying rock without even feeling it

Hitting a dog with a stick is very similar ... they genetically 'understand'
.... and one being tough, resisting dominance, CAN be physically damaged
BEFORE he'll yield to such "tools" ( watch a real dog fight ... or try to
break one up, if you doubt how fiecely some dogs cling to status ) ASIDE:
since it was mentioned, BS like 'biting an ear' is as sophisticated as
covering yourself with leaches 'cause you have a fever ... few things I know
of, in 'modern american culture' have as wide a spread from extemely subtly
and sophisticated at one end of scale of participants to truly medieval at
the other ... as dog "training" ( in quotes because the one end doesn't
justify the name )

The e-collar is a jolt from the blue .. and THAT, as much or more than
'pain' is it's power ... and another reason to dial it down to a level that
changes behavior, not one that "pleases" a ****ed off human

The e-collar is certainly NOT the tool for most people, but I seriously
doubt that a dog can be found "soft" enough to not be trainable with one ...
and produce a happy, tail wagging result ... remember, HUMAN NATURE, not
dog nature is the biggest problem in dog training ..

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

In article , Ken Fortenberry
writes
Larry L wrote:
I bought RosettaStone Spanish ( Latin America) based largely on your
suggestions. I have a lifelong history of being terrible at learning
languges, and was very concerned parting with so much money when I'm such a
dolt.
I'm several lessons into the program ... and there is no certainty
of my
success,
BUT,
this is the most powerful approach to learning language I've ever seen. I'm
progressing and having fun doing so.

Glad to hear it, Larry. I wish you continued success with your
language learning.

Perhaps you can return the favor and recommend a book or books
on dog training. I'm going to get my first ever pure bred dog
in a few weeks and I'm going to train her myself. I've never
had any dog that wasn't a shelter mutt and I loved them dearly
but this time I went with a Labrador Retriever with a pedigree.

I'm getting my dog from these folks:

http://www.britishlabradors.com/

And the training program they have is this one:

http://www.britishretrievertraining.com/index.html

I like it because they stress not using e-collars, which is
something I won't do. (I'm sure e-collars are fine in the
right hands, but my hands are far too inexperienced.)

Any advice or pointers appreciated.


I prefer to use a "Choke chain" - a bad description if ever there was
one. Check chain is much better because the chain never tightens to
choke the puppy. Always make sure the chain is put on the dog correctly
so that it will release as soon as any tension is relieved. The dog
will respond to the noise of the chain being tweaked without it ever
becoming tight.

One point that I read in an authoritative dog training book is- he
After being trained to fetch a dummy, the dog is not trained to give the
dummy but to hold it instead. If a treat is given as a reward for
giving, then the dog will develop the habit of dropping the dummy (later
a bird) prematurely in order to get the reward.

Good luck with your Labrador - the finest dogs possible in my opinion -
then I'm very biased indeed :-)

Oh yes Black is beautiful.
--
Bill Grey

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

In article , Ken Fortenberry
writes
Larry L wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
No, I'm not interested in field trials either. My dog won't be
suited for American field trials even though she comes from a
long line of Field Trial Champions in Ireland and Britain.
British Labradors are significantly smaller than their American
cousins, slighter of build and with a quieter temperament. Male
British Labs average 70-75 pounds, the females 53-58 pounds and
while some have competed well in American field trials their
small stature puts them at a disadvantage.
A dog from British Trial lines is an EXCELLENT choice for a gun dog
... mainly because of the quieter temperament
You'll do great Ken, keep us updated ... got a name yet?

Thanks Larry. We want a name that reflects the Irish in her
bloodline and starts with a K. (My wife is Kristine with a
K, my first name starts with a K, so there you have it. ;-)
I'm leaning toward Kerry and my wife seems partial to Kelty.


Whatever it must be a regal name worthy of a proper dog :-)


--
Bill Grey

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

In article , jeff miller
writes
at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?

Unbelievable loyalty, love , affection, companionship , unerring
devotion,

...............keeps your feet warm on the sofa :-)
--
Bill Grey

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

In article ,
Larry L writes
Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some simple
advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and do something
that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for instance. At this
point it has to be more unpleasant than the food is pleasant."

Swat the dog ! NEVER It's the owner who is to blame NOT the dog.
The answer would be to retrain the lady.

If the dog was properly adjusted it would know its place in the pecking
order when there's food around. The dog eats Last and should know that .
--
Bill Grey

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

In article ,
Larry L writes
The e-collar is certainly NOT the tool for most people, but I seriously
doubt that a dog can be found "soft" enough to not be trainable with one ...
and produce a happy, tail wagging result ... remember, HUMAN NATURE, not
dog nature is the biggest problem in dog training ..

I certainly think that an e-collar is totally unnecessary to train a
Labrador.

It may be a last resort with some of the more aggressive breeds but a
good dog trainer will not need such barbaric tools.

I suggest folk Google Dr Ian Dunbar who can give excellent advice on
puppy training who can advise on basic puppy training
--
Bill Grey

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

W. D. Grey wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Larry L wrote:
A dog from British Trial lines is an EXCELLENT choice for a gun dog
... mainly because of the quieter temperament
You'll do great Ken, keep us updated ... got a name yet?

Thanks Larry. We want a name that reflects the Irish in her
bloodline and starts with a K. (My wife is Kristine with a
K, my first name starts with a K, so there you have it. ;-)
I'm leaning toward Kerry and my wife seems partial to Kelty.

Whatever it must be a regal name worthy of a proper dog :-)

Thanks Bill, we've settled on Kaylin. Kaylin is the American
spelling of the Gaelic word for lass, Cailin. It works out
perfectly for our purposes, Irish roots, American spelling,
means girl, perfect. I know she'll be a proper dog, I just
hope I'm worthy of her.

--
Ken Fortenberry

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

W. D. Grey wrote:
snip
Good luck with your Labrador - the finest dogs possible in my opinion -
then I'm very biased indeed :-)

Oh yes Black is beautiful.

Well, Kaylin is a yellow Lab. My wife insisted on a yellow one
for whatever reason.

And thanks for the advice. She's already enrolled in Puppy Kindergarten
at our local Dog Training Club. That'll give me a chance to review
the things I learned and the things I forgot when I trained Kipper.
Plus she'll get to socialize with other puppies and other people.

--
Ken Fortenberry

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

W. D. Grey wrote:

In article , jeff miller
writes

at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?


Unbelievable loyalty, love , affection, companionship , unerring devotion,

..............keeps your feet warm on the sofa :-)

no doubt...but, i was interested in whether larry's experience with
field trial/hunting dogs indicated a higher probability of success with
a more expensive dog - 1500 being a fairly typical fee now for an akc or
pure bred dog from a quality breeder/kennel versus the usual akc dog one
can acquire at about a third of that cost from a trustworthy individual
or lesser known kennel. I have a friend who used to breed a litter of
good quality akc black labs for sale for about $400...mainly for hunting
but good enough for field trial too. I was interested in larry's
impressions of the qualitative difference justified by the extra cost
assuming both dogs were healthy pure breeds with proper documentation.

jeff

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

In article , jeff miller
writes
W. D. Grey wrote:

In article , jeff
miller writes

at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?
Unbelievable loyalty, love , affection, companionship , unerring
devotion,
..............keeps your feet warm on the sofa :-)

no doubt...but, i was interested in whether larry's experience with
field trial/hunting dogs indicated a higher probability of success with
a more expensive dog - 1500 being a fairly typical fee now for an akc
or pure bred dog from a quality breeder/kennel versus the usual akc dog
one can acquire at about a third of that cost from a trustworthy
individual or lesser known kennel. I have a friend who used to breed a
litter of good quality akc black labs for sale for about $400...mainly
for hunting but good enough for field trial too. I was interested in
larry's impressions of the qualitative difference justified by the
extra cost assuming both dogs were healthy pure breeds with proper
documentation.

jeff

Quite so Jeff - it depends on what your aspirations are. 9 years ago I
paid about 450 uk pounds for my pure bred Labrador and I'm sure the
price is now equivalent to the 1500 dollars mentioned.

To get anywhere in showing a dog you must have a good stock dog or
bitch. Mine did manage to qualify and enter Crufts - quite an
experience.

It is quite possible that a less highly bred animal will have more
resistance to certain illnesses, and might even be a bit more
intelligent.

What the hell - Labs are lovely :-)
--
Bill Grey

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

W. D. Grey wrote:
jeff miller writes
W. D. Grey wrote:
jeff miller writes
at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?
Unbelievable loyalty, love , affection, companionship , unerring
devotion,
..............keeps your feet warm on the sofa :-)

no doubt...but, i was interested in whether larry's experience with
field trial/hunting dogs indicated a higher probability of success
with a more expensive dog - 1500 being a fairly typical fee now for an
akc or pure bred dog from a quality breeder/kennel versus the usual
akc dog one can acquire at about a third of that cost from a
trustworthy individual or lesser known kennel. I have a friend who
used to breed a litter of good quality akc black labs for sale for
about $400...mainly for hunting but good enough for field trial too. I
was interested in larry's impressions of the qualitative difference
justified by the extra cost assuming both dogs were healthy pure
breeds with proper documentation.

Quite so Jeff - it depends on what your aspirations are. 9 years ago I
paid about 450 uk pounds for my pure bred Labrador and I'm sure the
price is now equivalent to the 1500 dollars mentioned.

To get anywhere in showing a dog you must have a good stock dog or
bitch. Mine did manage to qualify and enter Crufts - quite an experience.

It is quite possible that a less highly bred animal will have more
resistance to certain illnesses, and might even be a bit more intelligent.

What the hell - Labs are lovely :-)

On this side of the pond there are several differences between a
$1500 Labrador puppy from a reputable breeder and a $500 Labrador
puppy from Billy Bob's Backyard Kennel and Transmission Repair.

Besides pedigree the following information about my puppy's sire
and dam is documented and available for inspection:

Hip scores
Elbow certification
KC Eye certification

In addition the sire's documents include DNA testing for:

PRA
NARC
Labrador Myopathy

My puppy comes with a one year unconditional guarantee. If for
any reason the puppy isn't satisfactory I can take her back for
a full refund of the purchase price.

My puppy comes with a health guarantee. She is guaranteed to
pass her OFA hip and OFA elbow test at age 2, her eyes are
guaranteed to be clear and she is guaranteed to be free of
genetic disorders. If she is diagnosed with any genetic disorder
through her 30th month I can get a new puppy for free. And the
kennel doesn't want the first dog back, they just insist that
it be neutered.

Billy Bob doesn't charge as much for a puppy, but then Billy Bob
rarely guarantees his puppies.

What I don't get for $1500 that I could get for $500 from
Billy Bob is full AKC papers. My puppy will come with AKC Limited
Registration which means that her offspring cannot be registered
with the AKC. One of the reasons reputable breeders do this is
so their dogs don't end up in Billy Bob's Backyard Kennel and
Transmission Repair.

I would never buy a dog from Billy Bob but if some divorce lawyer
wanted to buy such a dog it wouldn't be any skin off my nose and
I sure as hell wouldn't try to stir up **** on roff about it.

--
Ken Fortenberry

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
W. D. Grey wrote:
jeff miller writes
W. D. Grey wrote:
jeff miller writes
at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?
Unbelievable loyalty, love , affection, companionship , unerring
devotion,
..............keeps your feet warm on the sofa :-)

no doubt...but, i was interested in whether larry's experience with
field trial/hunting dogs indicated a higher probability of success with
a more expensive dog - 1500 being a fairly typical fee now for an akc or
pure bred dog from a quality breeder/kennel versus the usual akc dog one
can acquire at about a third of that cost from a trustworthy individual
or lesser known kennel. I have a friend who used to breed a litter of
good quality akc black labs for sale for about $400...mainly for hunting
but good enough for field trial too. I was interested in larry's
impressions of the qualitative difference justified by the extra cost
assuming both dogs were healthy pure breeds with proper documentation.

Quite so Jeff - it depends on what your aspirations are. 9 years ago I
paid about 450 uk pounds for my pure bred Labrador and I'm sure the price
is now equivalent to the 1500 dollars mentioned.

To get anywhere in showing a dog you must have a good stock dog or bitch.
Mine did manage to qualify and enter Crufts - quite an experience.

It is quite possible that a less highly bred animal will have more
resistance to certain illnesses, and might even be a bit more
intelligent.

What the hell - Labs are lovely :-)

On this side of the pond there are several differences between a
$1500 Labrador puppy from a reputable breeder and a $500 Labrador
puppy from Billy Bob's Backyard Kennel and Transmission Repair.

Besides pedigree the following information about my puppy's sire
and dam is documented and available for inspection:

Hip scores
Elbow certification
KC Eye certification

In addition the sire's documents include DNA testing for:

PRA
NARC
Labrador Myopathy

My puppy comes with a one year unconditional guarantee. If for
any reason the puppy isn't satisfactory I can take her back for
a full refund of the purchase price.

My puppy comes with a health guarantee. She is guaranteed to
pass her OFA hip and OFA elbow test at age 2, her eyes are
guaranteed to be clear and she is guaranteed to be free of
genetic disorders. If she is diagnosed with any genetic disorder
through her 30th month I can get a new puppy for free. And the
kennel doesn't want the first dog back, they just insist that
it be neutered.

Billy Bob doesn't charge as much for a puppy, but then Billy Bob
rarely guarantees his puppies.

What I don't get for $1500 that I could get for $500 from
Billy Bob is full AKC papers. My puppy will come with AKC Limited
Registration which means that her offspring cannot be registered
with the AKC. One of the reasons reputable breeders do this is
so their dogs don't end up in Billy Bob's Backyard Kennel and
Transmission Repair.

I would never buy a dog from Billy Bob but if some divorce lawyer
wanted to buy such a dog it wouldn't be any skin off my nose and
I sure as hell wouldn't try to stir up **** on roff about it.

On bad days, the only thing that relieves the pai........well, actually,
nothing does. :)

Wolfgang
who, if the current rash of devastating cleverness continues much longer,
really is going to wet himself.

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

Ken Fortenberry wrote:

W. D. Grey wrote:

jeff miller writes

W. D. Grey wrote:

jeff miller writes

at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?

Unbelievable loyalty, love , affection, companionship , unerring
devotion,
..............keeps your feet warm on the sofa :-)


no doubt...but, i was interested in whether larry's experience with
field trial/hunting dogs indicated a higher probability of success
with a more expensive dog - 1500 being a fairly typical fee now for
an akc or pure bred dog from a quality breeder/kennel versus the
usual akc dog one can acquire at about a third of that cost from a
trustworthy individual or lesser known kennel. I have a friend who
used to breed a litter of good quality akc black labs for sale for
about $400...mainly for hunting but good enough for field trial too.
I was interested in larry's impressions of the qualitative difference
justified by the extra cost assuming both dogs were healthy pure
breeds with proper documentation.


Quite so Jeff - it depends on what your aspirations are. 9 years ago
I paid about 450 uk pounds for my pure bred Labrador and I'm sure the
price is now equivalent to the 1500 dollars mentioned.

To get anywhere in showing a dog you must have a good stock dog or
bitch. Mine did manage to qualify and enter Crufts - quite an
experience.

It is quite possible that a less highly bred animal will have more
resistance to certain illnesses, and might even be a bit more
intelligent.

What the hell - Labs are lovely :-)


On this side of the pond there are several differences between a
$1500 Labrador puppy from a reputable breeder and a $500 Labrador
puppy from Billy Bob's Backyard Kennel and Transmission Repair.

Besides pedigree the following information about my puppy's sire
and dam is documented and available for inspection:

Hip scores
Elbow certification
KC Eye certification

In addition the sire's documents include DNA testing for:

PRA
NARC
Labrador Myopathy

My puppy comes with a one year unconditional guarantee. If for
any reason the puppy isn't satisfactory I can take her back for
a full refund of the purchase price.

My puppy comes with a health guarantee. She is guaranteed to
pass her OFA hip and OFA elbow test at age 2, her eyes are
guaranteed to be clear and she is guaranteed to be free of
genetic disorders. If she is diagnosed with any genetic disorder
through her 30th month I can get a new puppy for free. And the
kennel doesn't want the first dog back, they just insist that
it be neutered.

Billy Bob doesn't charge as much for a puppy, but then Billy Bob
rarely guarantees his puppies.

What I don't get for $1500 that I could get for $500 from
Billy Bob is full AKC papers. My puppy will come with AKC Limited
Registration which means that her offspring cannot be registered
with the AKC. One of the reasons reputable breeders do this is
so their dogs don't end up in Billy Bob's Backyard Kennel and
Transmission Repair.

I would never buy a dog from Billy Bob but if some divorce lawyer
wanted to buy such a dog it wouldn't be any skin off my nose and
I sure as hell wouldn't try to stir up **** on roff about it.


yeah, right...sure you wouldn't. in fact, as anyone who pays attention
should be able to notice, you're the one who sniffs about, stoops, drops
a load, and stirs away. however, whatever **** offends your peculiar
olfactory typically emanates from your own putrid mind and lips.

the claim you wouldn't buy an akc dog from someone you knew - a friend -
but you have admitted you bought a dog from a pound? some more of your
pointed logic...about as good as some of your other stupid statements.

tell you what...i'll buy an akc lab from my friend. in two years, after
your warranty expires, let's have larry compare the two dogs and tell us
what he thinks. you're buying a warranty; i'm buying a dog.

jeff

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
 

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:06:10 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:


tell you what...i'll buy an akc lab from my friend. in two years, after
your warranty expires, let's have larry compare the two dogs and tell us
what he thinks. you're buying a warranty; i'm buying a dog.

Now that's just sick...two poor, innocent doggies totally ruint - one
who can't type in anything but lowercase and has lost the instinct to
bite lawyers on sight and another who thinks Budweiser is a beer and
Illinois is a football team...and both Democrats...well, you two
*******s try anything that heinous and I'll call them Animal Planet
Petcops on the pair of ya...

The curse of St Francis on the pair of ya,
R
....OTOH, Larry sounds like a fairly sensible guy...he'd probably fit ya
both with some of them shock collars that go to 11...

jeff

OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...