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No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On Jan 3, 6:52*pm, Giles wrote:
On Jan 3, 8:33*pm, MajorOz wrote: I don't ordinarily pay attention to playground arguments, but that last paragraph interested me. Well, we all unaccountably stumble upon things occasionally. Is it your contention that a disproportionate number of those whom you call "conservatives" are now seeking aid from programs that they previously opposed? ...or, did I read it wrong? I won't try to answer for Dave (god knows I'd probably have a difficult time making much more sense of what he says than he can) but it's hardly a secret that folks everywhere have always generally approved of programs from which they benefit and not so much of those from which they do not. *Thus, clearly, approval ratings tend to fluctuate somewhat depending on who benefits when and who don't. Do you know a lot of people who formerly and vigorously opposed one program or another from which they did not qualify to benefit, and who now hold fast to that disapproval when they do qualify? giles whose mother never raised such a foolish child. Yep, I think you've got it. The stain of pain plays mainly on the brain. Dave |
If PITA LOONIES don't fish, and Tories cherish CHEESEBALLS, flyfishers use. . .
On 2010-01-03 21:33:57 -0500, MajorOz said:
The food banks and church handout programs are full of confused, whimpering former big pie hole wingnuts like you right now, begging for help from program's and people they trashed just months ago, before their safe little wingnut worlds crumbled leaving their arrogance naked of security. I don't ordinarily pay attention to playground arguments, but that last paragraph interested me. Is it your contention that a disproportionate number of those whom you call "conservatives" are now seeking aid from programs that they previously opposed? ...or, did I read it wrong? No, that is what he is saying. However, from my experience, he is wrong (at least here in the left wingnut state of Massachusetts). I work in a food pantry and I've yet to meet someone like Dave has described. Most of our clients have been coming to the pantry for years. There has been new ones in the past year, but they are the working poor, and from talking with them, I doubt any are Republicans let alone conservatives. Most of the volunteers did not vote for Obama. All of the clients probably did vote for Obama. Dave |
If PITA LOONIES don't fish, and Tories cherish CHEESEBALLS,flyfishers use. . .
On Jan 4, 5:10*am, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-01-03 21:33:57 -0500, MajorOz said: The food banks and church handout programs are full of confused, whimpering former big pie hole wingnuts like you right now, begging for help from program's and people they trashed just months ago, before their safe little wingnut worlds crumbled leaving their arrogance naked of security. I don't ordinarily pay attention to playground arguments, but that last paragraph interested me. Is it your contention that a disproportionate number of those whom you call "conservatives" are now seeking aid from programs that they previously opposed? ...or, did I read it wrong? No, that is what he is saying. *However, from my experience, he is wrong (at least here in the left wingnut state of Massachusetts). *I work in a food pantry and I've yet to meet someone like Dave has described. *Most of our clients have been coming to the pantry for years. *There has been new ones in the past year, but they are the working poor, and from talking with them, I doubt any are Republicans let alone conservatives. Most of the volunteers did not vote for Obama. *All of the clients probably did vote for Obama. Dave - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well OK 1. No I am not saying that a disproportionate number of conservatives are going to food banks. How could I know that? Maybe we have different definitions of proportionate? For me, it would mean that a higher proportion (%) of the total universe of conservatives are coming to food banks, THAN the proportion (%) of the universe of others who come to food banks. 2. What I am saying is that based on my experiences in the past, and some current observations and info, I believe that a larger number of people with conservative political beliefs are coming to food banks (and other human services) than do in non recessionary times. And . . . 3. Again from experience, not survey or experiment, these folk are typically new comers to needing assistance and are often very emotional, sometimes hostile and demanding, and rarely but regularly threatening. Its hard times and they are not used to asking for help. 4. Hello, I was responding to Beanster's characterization that libs typically walk by a beaten man and are more concerned with criminals than victims. Rightwingers love those kind of jokes which imply that wingnuts are stand-up heroes, without actually helping anybody. Bonhoeffer called stuff like this "cheap grace." I think. Side note: By the way, Working poor people are not somehow immune to voting R or immune to conservative political belief, particularly around issues like abortion, unionization, etc.. Karl Rove sure knew that in the 2004 Ohio election, and wasn't there this Reagan fellow who . . . . Since to your knowledge no conservative has come into the food pantry where you volunteer, to ask for assistance or acted emotionally, you apparently have touched the elephant in a different place. ;+)) Dave By the way the most hostile and demanding laid off people in my experience base were defense workers, engineers and middle managers. The most appreciative, positive and eager to retrain (?) . . . people like laid off sawmill workers in Snoqualemie and paper workers out on the Coast. And all these groups got (get?)enhanced services, and deeper support. You figure. |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 4, 5:10*am, David LaCourse wrote:
No, that is what he is saying. However, from my experience, he is wrong (at least here in the left wingnut state of Massachusetts). I work in a food pantry and I've yet to meet someone like Dave has described. Most of our clients have been coming to the pantry for years. There has been new ones in the past year, but they are the working poor, and from talking with them, I doubt any are Republicans let alone conservatives. Most of the volunteers did not vote for Obama. All of the clients probably did vote for Obama. Dave - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well OK 1. No I am not saying that a disproportionate number of conservatives are going to food banks. How could I know that? Maybe we have different definitions of proportionate? For me, it would mean that a higher proportion (%) of the total universe of conservatives are coming to food banks, THAN the proportion (%) of the universe of others who come to food banks. 2. What I am saying is that based on my experiences in the past, and some current observations and info, I believe that a larger number of people with conservative political beliefs are coming to food banks (and other human services) than do in non recessionary times. And . . . 3. Again from experience, not survey or experiment, these folk are typically new comers to needing assistance and are often very emotional, sometimes hostile and demanding, and rarely but regularly threatening. Its hard times and they are not used to asking for help. 4. Hello, I was responding to Beanster's characterization that libs typically walk by a beaten man and are more concerned with criminals than victims. Rightwingers love those kind of jokes which imply that wingnuts are stand-up heroes, without actually helping anybody. Bonhoeffer called stuff like this "cheap grace." I think. Side note: By the way, Working poor people are not somehow immune to voting R or immune to conservative political belief, particularly around issues like abortion, unionization, etc.. Karl Rove sure knew that in the 2004 Ohio election, and wasn't there this Reagan fellow who . . . . Since to your knowledge no conservative has come into the food pantry where you volunteer, to ask for assistance or acted emotionally, you apparently have touched the elephant in a different place. ;+)) Dave By the way the most hostile and demanding laid off people in my experience base were defense workers, engineers and middle managers. The most appreciative, positive and eager to retrain (?) . . . people like laid off sawmill workers in Snoqualemie and paper workers out on the Coast. And all these groups got (get?)enhanced services, and deeper support. You figure. |
If PITA LOONIES don't fish, and Tories cherish CHEESEBALLS,flyfishers use. . .
On Jan 4, 2:15*am, DaveS wrote:
On Jan 3, 6:33*pm, MajorOz wrote: On Jan 2, 11:34*am, DaveS wrote: On Jan 2, 8:16*am, "~^ beancounter ~^" wrote: yawn.........did you say something DaveS? On Jan 1, 7:32*pm, DaveS wrote: On Dec 31 2009, 8:08*pm, "~^ beancounter ~^" wrote: It's a fact: you're a Tory fisherperson. Tories fish cheeseballs. You fish cheeseballs. Don't fight it. Be comfortable with your inner Tory.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - . . . *flies. Don't struggle with it too much; I might adjust the reading level down if maybe you could share your recipe for your go-to Velvetta Cheeseball fly.? Easily led, simple answer seekers like you, believers in witchcraft like Palin, and arm chair warriors like Cheney are unfortunate but disposable political fellow travelers for real conservatives. These folks will have their papa's money, high heels, book contracts and born-again scams to keep them in German wheels. But what about your kind? The food banks and church handout programs are full of confused, whimpering former big pie hole wingnuts like you right now, begging for help from program's and people they trashed just months ago, before their safe little wingnut worlds crumbled leaving their arrogance naked of security. I don't ordinarily pay attention to playground arguments, but that last paragraph interested me. Is it your contention that a disproportionate number of those whom you call "conservatives" are now seeking aid from programs that they previously opposed? ...or, did I read it wrong? cheers oz- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Fair question. Disproportionate? No, I have no basis for saying that in this specific downturn, people who hold conservative political views, are more likely to be seeking assistance from agencies/churches than people who do not have such views. Don't think what I did say implied that. It would be pretty hard to tease out answers to that question even if I were still active professionally. For one, educational levels are associated with political outlook, as is geography, gender, ethnicity etc. ie just too many complex variables for a straight up analysis, and I never felt good about ANOVA or factor analysis anyway. My opinions are based on personal and shared experiences, no more. But I will venture this; This recession has dug deeper into some of the small independent business sectors (than past downturns, when we had a larger manufacturing base) specifically residential construction, FIRE (finance, insurance and reat estate), and some of the tech service areas. These are the "newcomers" in the unemployment offices and foodbanks. And generally, they break toward the Republican side, even in the NW. In the foodbanks its some of the above, but more noticeably, elderly and single parent suburban females that are more in evidence, as well as male construction and home service businessmen. Ive talked to lots of ES and UI staff and customers over decades and in many states, Red and Blue. The worse the economy, the better was my consulting business. From personal experience in past recessions and some mass layoffs I worked professionally, I know that the newly and rarely unemployed tend to be more conservative. How do I know this? Because people tell you all kinds of stuff when they are up against the wall, whether you want to know or not. Most often they want you to know that they are "not that kind" or this is their first time blah blah blah. And they do say things like "6 months ago I thought this program was for bums" etc. And sometimes they think weird stuff and bring it with them: for example I remember one guy who wanted the employment counselor helping him fired because a man in the poster on the wall had arm muscles and therefore was Marxist in his eyes, seriously. I recall another example when I found several laid off "patriots" had intimidated a young counselor into approving expensive helicopter retraining. *There are also folks who want to scream out their beliefs and a few want to hurt someone as a part of their employment service experience.. And there are a very few people who bring guns with them. Bottonline, there is lots of emotion concentrated in one place when the labor market goes cacahuate, and people want to "tell their story." Foodbanks are somewhat different. The best try to mimic a grocery store, with carts, choices and pleasant space. However, humiliation for people who are not used to being dependent is never far away. People know why they are there. I traveled lots for work but Ive lived in the same 22k affluent community for 38 years. I know something of peoples politics and I know who I see at the food bank. This recession is not skipping conservatives. All of this is not saying that people with rightwing views get their "comeuppance" when they come for help. Ive never seen public or non- profit program staff use this vulnerability as a supposed "teaching moment" for making conservatives somehow more compassionate and liberal. Rightwing politics in these service environments is just baggage and slows up service for other people. But there are occasions, as program staff will tell you, that they have to take ideological **** and abuse at the same time they are helping the same people get thru their bad times. Its just the way it is. However I personally believe that most adults learn understanding and compassion from life's experiences, and I believe that these experiences moderate rigid political beliefs. I also believe that all public human services facilities should have "safe rooms" for when the inevitable whackjob (wingnut or otherwise) wants to hasten Gotterdammerung. But that's a whole nuther rant. Dave As to your "playground" insult . . . duely noted culero. Thank you. I now more fully understand what you seem to have previously meant. And, I appreciate your experiences and observations in the area. Although marginally greater than mine, conclusions and interpretations (and neither of us have predispositions, do we, now :) ) are somewhat different. cheers oz, who noted a distinctly different tone, not at all in the playground style (perhaps it rubs off from those who shall remain unmentioned) of some previous posts. |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-04 14:48:33 -0500, DaveS said:
On Jan 4, 5:10*am, David LaCourse wrote: No, that is what he is saying. However, from my experience, he is wrong (at least here in the left wingnut state of Massachusetts). I work in a food pantry and I've yet to meet someone like Dave has described. Most of our clients have been coming to the pantry for years. There has been new ones in the past year, but they are the working poor, and from talking with them, I doubt any are Republicans let alone conservatives. Most of the volunteers did not vote for Obama. All of the clients probably did vote for Obama. Dave - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well OK 1. No I am not saying that a disproportionate number of conservatives are going to food banks. How could I know that? Maybe we have different definitions of proportionate? For me, it would mean that a higher proportion (%) of the total universe of conservatives are coming to food banks, THAN the proportion (%) of the universe of others who come to food banks. 2. What I am saying is that based on my experiences in the past, and some current observations and info, I believe that a larger number of people with conservative political beliefs are coming to food banks (and other human services) than do in non recessionary times. Could be true, I guess. But, in my experience looking over the past year most of the new clients at the food bank I volunteer at are the working poor, blue collar workers, not your typical conservative. This is also true at three or four other food banks/pantries in the area that I am familiar with, including one in a well-to-do community. And . . . 3. Again from experience, not survey or experiment, these folk are typically new comers to needing assistance and are often very emotional, sometimes hostile and demanding, and rarely but regularly threatening. Its hard times and they are not used to asking for help. I have experienced many new comers to the food pantry and all find it humiliating. A single black mom, very well dressed, came in about two months ago for the first time. She took her number and had a seat in the corner were she silently cried. She had been employed in a well paying job from the looks of her clothes, and during a conversation I got the feeling she was obviously educated. I talked with her in private and tried to assure her that there was no shame in asking for help and that it would only be temporary in her case. Others also seemed humiliated and embarrassed by the experience. And, yes, I would be too. 4. Hello, I was responding to Beanster's characterization that libs typically walk by a beaten man and are more concerned with criminals than victims. Rightwingers love those kind of jokes which imply that wingnuts are stand-up heroes, without actually helping anybody. Bonhoeffer called stuff like this "cheap grace." I think. Well, to begin with, to have "grace" they would need to be Christian. I'm not arguing with Bonhoeffer, but I believe a true Christian is a loving person, willing to give back with his/her time, treasures, and talents. There is no "cheap grace". You can't earn grace, and although good works are not necessary, every Christian I know does some sort of extra work and is generous with his/her time and money. As far as making a joke about libs walking past a beaten man...... well, that attitude, true or false, had to start somewhere. I once heard a women friend in the singing group I once belonged to say that she felt sorry for this particular criminal who had killed someone. She said he was a "product of his environment." She showed no such pity for the innocent person killed as we talked about the crime. I have seen this same attitude at a national level. Can't recall the name of the guilty person in jail, but he was black, "a product of his environment", was found guilty by overwhelming evidence, yet the liberal press and hollywood types *demanded* he be let go. I think that there is a history of such things happening. I grew up dirt poor. I was NOT a product of my environment. No one is. We all have choices in life. Side note: By the way, Working poor people are not somehow immune to voting R or immune to conservative political belief, particularly around issues like abortion, unionization, etc.. Karl Rove sure knew that in the 2004 Ohio election, and wasn't there this Reagan fellow who . . . . No they aren't. But the poor I see on a daily basis are 100% Obamites, and the "change" they want is more entitlements. I know, I know, someone will brand me as a bigoted blowhard ******* for having said that, but it is the truth. They truly need help, but many have made bad decisions and continue to make more bad decisions, and ride the system for all it's worth. They are happy with their lives, afaik, and wouldn't change if it meant working for what they get. Since to your knowledge no conservative has come into the food pantry where you volunteer, to ask for assistance or acted emotionally, you apparently have touched the elephant in a different place. ;+)) Well, it all depends on one's perspective, but that has been my experience, Dave. One must also remember that being a conservative does not automatically mean that person is a Republican. I grew very poor and my parents were conservative Democrats. d;o) (After thought: I doubt my parents, if alive, would today vote Democrat. Their Democrat party has changed. It is not the party today of JFK. Remember the first thing he did when he became prez? I will never forget - he gave everyone a very nice tax break. More money to spend meant more income for the government.) Dave By the way the most hostile and demanding laid off people in my experience base were defense workers, engineers and middle managers. The most appreciative, positive and eager to retrain (?) . . . people like laid off sawmill workers in Snoqualemie and paper workers out on the Coast. And all these groups got (get?)enhanced services, and deeper support. You figure. Hmmmm. Well, I know of two 6 figure friends, both engineers, who have been unemployed for awhile (one for almost two years). They are both in their 50s, would accept under-paid positions, and both have been retrained, one as a truck driver. Neither has given up hope of finding a job. One, married to a working nurse, is slowly spending his 401K and has moved into a smaller home. They'll survive. You and I, Dave, are very fortunate. I count my blessings daily, and I'm sure you do too. Dave |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:201001041720588930-dplacourse@aolcom... No they aren't. But the poor I see on a daily basis are 100% Obamites, and the "change" they want is more entitlements. sure they do......sigh someone will brand me as a bigoted blowhard ******* for having said that why should they bother, when your own words do it themselves. Tom p.s. David, you shouldn't try to divine the thoughts of those who you clearly don't understand. |
If PITA LOONIES don't fish, and Tories cherish CHEESEBALLS,flyfishers use. . .
On Jan 4, 2:13*pm, MajorOz wrote:
Thank you. I now more fully understand what you seem to have previously meant. And, I appreciate your experiences and observations in the area. Although marginally greater than mine, conclusions and interpretations (and neither of us have predispositions, do we, now :) ) are somewhat different. cheers oz, who noted a distinctly different tone, not at all in the playground style (perhaps it rubs off from those who shall remain unmentioned) of some previous posts.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Good we could have this exchange. As to the tone, sure its different and I try to meet folks at least half way when I can. My tone with the Beanster and others when they adopt the strategy of posting the days' whackjob spin press release is to hit back. The last few months have been flooded with drug company paid attempts to sabotage health care reform, straight up lies about Medicare and diversionary attacks on Obama to block out a number of other stories, including a very ugly Mideast story on organ trafficking which has incensed Muslims worldwide, and is currently being heavily censored in the US. I decided to start answering the Beansters nonsense the day I saw the signs at the Tea Party rallies that said "Keep the Government's hands off my Medicare." That was it for me. I decided on that day that if the GOP was going to stoop to that level to score some transitory point with a blatant lie intentionally meant to exploit ill informed elderly people, it was time to crack some heads. Beanster and even Dean are just go along puppies in this. But I think radicals have captured control of what was the Republican Party and heavily infiltrated ethical conservative circles and are presently a threat to the Constitution in the same sense that the Russian controlled Communist Party USA was in the 1940s. And I would hope that every bit of their propaganda is answered from here on out. With humor if possible. As to individuals who are more conservative than I am? Vive la difference. American patriots are ok by me. However I don't think many have much of an idea of just who is calling the shots and just how radical is the ideology at the core of whackdom right now. If you want to do some self study, track back on the key figures behind the "house on C street" story, the Dominionists, and the current Uganda story. Then make up your own mind if that radical theocratic dictatorship is what you believe American conservatism is all about. They say they want to overthrow the US government, our democratic republic, and I believe them. Cheers Dave |
If PITA LOONIES don't fish, and Tories cherish CHEESEBALLS,flyfishers use. . .
On Jan 4, 4:13*pm, MajorOz wrote:
On Jan 4, 2:15*am, DaveS wrote: On Jan 3, 6:33*pm, MajorOz wrote: On Jan 2, 11:34*am, DaveS wrote: On Jan 2, 8:16*am, "~^ beancounter ~^" wrote: yawn.........did you say something DaveS? On Jan 1, 7:32*pm, DaveS wrote: On Dec 31 2009, 8:08*pm, "~^ beancounter ~^" wrote: It's a fact: you're a Tory fisherperson. Tories fish cheeseballs. You fish cheeseballs. Don't fight it. Be comfortable with your inner Tory.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - . . . *flies. Don't struggle with it too much; I might adjust the reading level down if maybe you could share your recipe for your go-to Velvetta Cheeseball fly.? Easily led, simple answer seekers like you, believers in witchcraft like Palin, and arm chair warriors like Cheney are unfortunate but disposable political fellow travelers for real conservatives. These folks will have their papa's money, high heels, book contracts and born-again scams to keep them in German wheels. But what about your kind? The food banks and church handout programs are full of confused, whimpering former big pie hole wingnuts like you right now, begging for help from program's and people they trashed just months ago, before their safe little wingnut worlds crumbled leaving their arrogance naked of security. I don't ordinarily pay attention to playground arguments, but that last paragraph interested me. Is it your contention that a disproportionate number of those whom you call "conservatives" are now seeking aid from programs that they previously opposed? ...or, did I read it wrong? cheers oz- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Fair question. Disproportionate? No, I have no basis for saying that in this specific downturn, people who hold conservative political views, are more likely to be seeking assistance from agencies/churches than people who do not have such views. Don't think what I did say implied that. It would be pretty hard to tease out answers to that question even if I were still active professionally. For one, educational levels are associated with political outlook, as is geography, gender, ethnicity etc. ie just too many complex variables for a straight up analysis, and I never felt good about ANOVA or factor analysis anyway. My opinions are based on personal and shared experiences, no more. But I will venture this; This recession has dug deeper into some of the small independent business sectors (than past downturns, when we had a larger manufacturing base) specifically residential construction, FIRE (finance, insurance and reat estate), and some of the tech service areas. These are the "newcomers" in the unemployment offices and foodbanks. And generally, they break toward the Republican side, even in the NW. In the foodbanks its some of the above, but more noticeably, elderly and single parent suburban females that are more in evidence, as well as male construction and home service businessmen. Ive talked to lots of ES and UI staff and customers over decades and in many states, Red and Blue. The worse the economy, the better was my consulting business. From personal experience in past recessions and some mass layoffs I worked professionally, I know that the newly and rarely unemployed tend to be more conservative. How do I know this? Because people tell you all kinds of stuff when they are up against the wall, whether you want to know or not. Most often they want you to know that they are "not that kind" or this is their first time blah blah blah. And they do say things like "6 months ago I thought this program was for bums" etc. And sometimes they think weird stuff and bring it with them: for example I remember one guy who wanted the employment counselor helping him fired because a man in the poster on the wall had arm muscles and therefore was Marxist in his eyes, seriously. I recall another example when I found several laid off "patriots" had intimidated a young counselor into approving expensive helicopter retraining. *There are also folks who want to scream out their beliefs and a few want to hurt someone as a part of their employment service experience.. And there are a very few people who bring guns with them. Bottonline, there is lots of emotion concentrated in one place when the labor market goes cacahuate, and people want to "tell their story." Foodbanks are somewhat different. The best try to mimic a grocery store, with carts, choices and pleasant space. However, humiliation for people who are not used to being dependent is never far away. People know why they are there. I traveled lots for work but Ive lived in the same 22k affluent community for 38 years. I know something of peoples politics and I know who I see at the food bank. This recession is not skipping conservatives. All of this is not saying that people with rightwing views get their "comeuppance" when they come for help. Ive never seen public or non- profit program staff use this vulnerability as a supposed "teaching moment" for making conservatives somehow more compassionate and liberal. Rightwing politics in these service environments is just baggage and slows up service for other people. But there are occasions, as program staff will tell you, that they have to take ideological **** and abuse at the same time they are helping the same people get thru their bad times. Its just the way it is. However I personally believe that most adults learn understanding and compassion from life's experiences, and I believe that these experiences moderate rigid political beliefs. I also believe that all public human services facilities should have "safe rooms" for when the inevitable whackjob (wingnut or otherwise) wants to hasten Gotterdammerung. But that's a whole nuther rant. Dave As to your "playground" insult . . . duely noted culero. Thank you. I now more fully understand what you seem to have previously meant. And, I appreciate your experiences and observations in the area. Although marginally greater than mine, conclusions and interpretations (and neither of us have predispositions, do we, now :) ) are somewhat different. cheers oz, who noted a distinctly different tone, not at all in the playground style (perhaps it rubs off from those who shall remain unmentioned) of some previous posts. You never know what rubs off until you rub up against it. Hey.....pat yourself on the back and you may get **** on your hands. And I don't believe you understand anything more than you did 48 hours ago. But you could demonstrate that I'm wrong.....if you really wanted to......right? :) g. predispose that. |
If PITA LOONIES don't fish, and Tories cherish CHEESEBALLS,flyfishers use. . .
On Jan 4, 7:10*am, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-01-03 21:33:57 -0500, MajorOz said: The food banks and church handout programs are full of confused, whimpering former big pie hole wingnuts like you right now, begging for help from program's and people they trashed just months ago, before their safe little wingnut worlds crumbled leaving their arrogance naked of security. I don't ordinarily pay attention to playground arguments, but that last paragraph interested me. Is it your contention that a disproportionate number of those whom you call "conservatives" are now seeking aid from programs that they previously opposed? ...or, did I read it wrong? No, that is what he is saying. *However, from my experience, he is wrong (at least here in the left wingnut state of Massachusetts). *I work in a food pantry and I've yet to meet someone like Dave has described. *Most of our clients have been coming to the pantry for years. *There has been new ones in the past year, but they are the working poor, and from talking with them, I doubt any are Republicans let alone conservatives. Most of the volunteers did not vote for Obama. *All of the clients probably did vote for Obama. Dave Dimwit. g. |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 4, 4:20*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-01-04 14:48:33 -0500, DaveS said: On Jan 4, 5:10*am, David LaCourse wrote: No, that is what he is saying. *However, from my experience, he is wrong (at least here in the left wingnut state of Massachusetts). *I work in a food pantry and I've yet to meet someone like Dave has described. *Most of our clients have been coming to the pantry for years. *There has been new ones in the past year, but they are the working poor, and from talking with them, I doubt any are Republicans let alone conservatives. Most of the volunteers did not vote for Obama. *All of the clients probably did vote for Obama. Dave - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well OK 1. No I am not saying that a disproportionate number of conservatives are going to food banks. How could I know that? Maybe we have different definitions of proportionate? For me, it would mean that a higher proportion (%) of the total universe of conservatives are coming to food banks, THAN the proportion (%) of the universe of others who come to food banks. 2. What I am saying is that based on my experiences in the past, and some current observations and info, I believe that a larger number of people with conservative political beliefs are coming to food banks (and other human services) than do in non recessionary times. Could be true, *I guess. *But, in my experience looking over the past year most of the new clients at the food bank I volunteer at are the working poor, blue collar workers, not your typical conservative. *This is also true at three or four other food banks/pantries in the area that I am familiar with, including one in a well-to-do community. And . . . 3. Again from experience, not survey or experiment, these folk are typically new comers to needing assistance and are often very emotional, sometimes hostile and demanding, and rarely but regularly threatening. Its hard times and they are not used to asking for help. I have experienced many new comers to the food pantry and all find it humiliating. *A single black mom, very well dressed, came in about two months ago for the first time. She took her number and had a seat in the corner were she silently cried. *She had been employed in a well paying job from the looks of her clothes, and during a conversation I got the feeling she was obviously educated. *I talked with her in private and tried to assure her that there was no shame in asking for help and that it would only be temporary in her case. * Others also seemed humiliated and embarrassed by the experience. *And, yes, I would be too. 4. Hello, I was responding to Beanster's characterization that libs typically walk by a beaten man and are more concerned with criminals than victims. Rightwingers love those kind of jokes which imply that wingnuts are stand-up heroes, without actually helping anybody. Bonhoeffer called stuff like this "cheap grace." I think. Well, to begin with, to have "grace" they would need to be Christian. * I'm not arguing with Bonhoeffer, but I believe a true Christian is a loving person, willing to give back with his/her time, treasures, and talents. *There is no "cheap grace". *You can't earn grace, and although good works are not necessary, every Christian I know does some sort of extra work and is generous with his/her time and money. *As far as making a joke about libs walking past a beaten man...... well, that attitude, true or false, had to start somewhere. *I once heard a women friend in the singing group I once belonged to say that she felt sorry for this particular criminal who had killed someone. *She said he was a "product of his environment." *She showed no such pity for the innocent person killed as we talked about the crime. *I have seen this same attitude at a national level. *Can't recall the name of the guilty person in jail, but he was black, "a product of his environment", was found guilty by overwhelming evidence, yet the liberal press and hollywood types *demanded* he be let go. *I think that there is a history of such things happening. *I grew up dirt poor. *I was NOT a product of my environment. *No one is. *We all have choices in life. Side note: By the way, Working poor people are not somehow immune to voting R or immune to conservative political belief, particularly around issues like abortion, unionization, etc.. Karl Rove sure knew that in the 2004 Ohio election, and wasn't there this Reagan fellow who . . . . No they aren't. *But the poor I see on a daily basis are 100% Obamites, and the "change" they want is more entitlements. *I know, I know, someone will brand me as a bigoted blowhard ******* for having said that, but it is the truth. *They truly need help, but many have made bad decisions and continue to make more bad decisions, and ride the system for all it's worth. *They are happy with their lives, afaik, and wouldn't change if it meant working for what they get. Since to your knowledge no conservative has come into the food pantry where you volunteer, to ask for assistance or acted emotionally, you apparently have touched the elephant in a different place. ;+)) Well, it all depends on one's perspective, but that has been my experience, Dave. *One must also remember that being a conservative does not automatically mean that person is a Republican. *I grew very poor and my parents were conservative Democrats. *d;o) (After thought: * I doubt my parents, if alive, would today vote Democrat. *Their Democrat party has changed. *It is not the party today of JFK. * Remember the first thing he did when he became prez? *I will never forget - he gave everyone a very nice tax break. *More money to spend meant more income for the government.) Dave By the way the most hostile and demanding laid off people in my experience base were defense workers, engineers and middle managers. The most appreciative, positive and eager to retrain (?) . . . people like laid off sawmill workers in Snoqualemie and paper workers out on the Coast. *And all these groups got (get?)enhanced services, and deeper support. You figure. Hmmmm. *Well, I know of two 6 figure friends, both engineers, who have been unemployed for awhile (one for almost two years). *They are both in their 50s, would accept under-paid positions, and both have been retrained, one as a truck driver. *Neither has given up hope of finding a job. *One, married to a working nurse, is slowly spending his 401K and has moved into a smaller home. *They'll survive. You and I, Dave, are very fortunate. *I count my blessings daily, and I'm sure you do too. Dave Good god, you are an idiot. And a pig. And a liar. g. well, yeah, not necessarily in that order. |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-04 19:28:01 -0500, "Tom Littleton" said:
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:201001041720588930-dplacourse@aolcom... No they aren't. But the poor I see on a daily basis are 100% Obamites, and the "change" they want is more entitlements. sure they do......sigh someone will brand me as a bigoted blowhard ******* for having said that why should they bother, when your own words do it themselves. Tom p.s. David, you shouldn't try to divine the thoughts of those who you clearly don't understand. Tom, I see and deal with the people. They are pathetic. Most of them have become dependent on food stamps, welfare, gov housing, food pantries, etc. Some are *third* generation welfare cases. Three generations of no progress. It's like we have thrown away these people. And they DO expect more from Obama. And I don't give a **** what you think or say about the subject. I live it. I see them. I hug them or shake their hand. The past three years have been a big eye opener for me. Jo and I move to Georgia on Thursday. We both plan to do the same thing down there. Go kiss some more ass, Tom. It'll make you feel better. Dave |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-04 21:30:04 -0500, Giles said:
On Jan 4, 4:20*pm, David LaCourse wrote: On 2010-01-04 14:48:33 -0500, DaveS said: On Jan 4, 5:10*am, David LaCourse wrote: No, that is what he is saying. *However, from my experience, he is wrong (at least here in the left wingnut state of Massachusetts). *I work in a food pantry and I've yet to meet someone like Dave has described. *Most of our clients have been coming to the pantry for years. *There has been new ones in the past year, but they are the working poor, and from talking with them, I doubt any are Republicans let alone conservatives. Most of the volunteers did not vote for Obama. *All of the clients probably did vote for Obama. Dave - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well OK 1. No I am not saying that a disproportionate number of conservatives are going to food banks. How could I know that? Maybe we have different definitions of proportionate? For me, it would mean that a higher proportion (%) of the total universe of conservatives are coming to food banks, THAN the proportion (%) of the universe of others who come to food banks. 2. What I am saying is that based on my experiences in the past, and some current observations and info, I believe that a larger number of people with conservative political beliefs are coming to food banks (and other human services) than do in non recessionary times. Could be true, *I guess. *But, in my experience looking over the past year most of the new clients at the food bank I volunteer at are the working poor, blue collar workers, not your typical conservative. *This is also true at three or four other food banks/pantries in the area that I am familiar with, including one in a well-to-do community. And . . . 3. Again from experience, not survey or experiment, these folk are typically new comers to needing assistance and are often very emotional, sometimes hostile and demanding, and rarely but regularly threatening. Its hard times and they are not used to asking for help. I have experienced many new comers to the food pantry and all find it humiliating. *A single black mom, very well dressed, came in about two months ago for the first time. She took her number and had a seat in the corner were she silently cried. *She had been employed in a well paying job from the looks of her clothes, and during a conversation I got the feeling she was obviously educated. *I talked with her in private and tried to assure her that there was no shame in asking for help and that it would only be temporary in her case. * Others also seemed humiliated and embarrassed by the experience. *And, yes, I would be too. 4. Hello, I was responding to Beanster's characterization that libs typically walk by a beaten man and are more concerned with criminals than victims. Rightwingers love those kind of jokes which imply that wingnuts are stand-up heroes, without actually helping anybody. Bonhoeffer called stuff like this "cheap grace." I think. Well, to begin with, to have "grace" they would need to be Christian. * I'm not arguing with Bonhoeffer, but I believe a true Christian is a loving person, willing to give back with his/her time, treasures, and talents. *There is no "cheap grace". *You can't earn grace, and although good works are not necessary, every Christian I know does some sort of extra work and is generous with his/her time and money. *As far as making a joke about libs walking past a beaten man...... well, that attitude, true or false, had to start somewhere. *I once heard a women friend in the singing group I once belonged to say that she felt sorry for this particular criminal who had killed someone. *She said he was a "product of his environment." *She showed no such pity for the innocent person killed as we talked about the crime. *I have seen this same attitude at a national level. *Can't recall the name of the guilty person in jail, but he was black, "a product of his environment", was found guilty by overwhelming evidence, yet the liberal press and hollywood types *demanded* he be let go. *I think that there is a history of such things happening. *I grew up dirt poor. *I was NOT a product of my environment. *No one is. *We all have choices in life. Side note: By the way, Working poor people are not somehow immune to voting R or immune to conservative political belief, particularly around issues like abortion, unionization, etc.. Karl Rove sure knew that in the 2004 Ohio election, and wasn't there this Reagan fellow who . . . . No they aren't. *But the poor I see on a daily basis are 100% Obamites, and the "change" they want is more entitlements. *I know, I know, someone will brand me as a bigoted blowhard ******* for having said that, but it is the truth. *They truly need help, but many have made bad decisions and continue to make more bad decisions, and ride the system for all it's worth. *They are happy with their lives, afaik, and wouldn't change if it meant working for what they get. Since to your knowledge no conservative has come into the food pantry where you volunteer, to ask for assistance or acted emotionally, you apparently have touched the elephant in a different place. ;+)) Well, it all depends on one's perspective, but that has been my experience, Dave. *One must also remember that being a conservative does not automatically mean that person is a Republican. *I grew very poor and my parents were conservative Democrats. *d;o) (After thought: * I doubt my parents, if alive, would today vote Democrat. *Their Democrat party has changed. *It is not the party today of JFK. * Remember the first thing he did when he became prez? *I will never forget - he gave everyone a very nice tax break. *More money to spend meant more income for the government.) Dave By the way the most hostile and demanding laid off people in my experience base were defense workers, engineers and middle managers. The most appreciative, positive and eager to retrain (?) . . . people like laid off sawmill workers in Snoqualemie and paper workers out on the Coast. *And all these groups got (get?)enhanced services, and deeper support. You figure. Hmmmm. *Well, I know of two 6 figure friends, both engineers, who have been unemployed for awhile (one for almost two years). *They are both in their 50s, would accept under-paid positions, and both have been retrained, one as a truck driver. *Neither has given up hope of finding a job. *One, married to a working nurse, is slowly spending his 401K and has moved into a smaller home. *They'll survive. You and I, Dave, are very fortunate. *I count my blessings daily, and I'm sure you do too. Dave Good god, you are an idiot. And a pig. And a liar. g. well, yeah, not necessarily in that order. Hey, don't forget to wash your hands in very hot water, lots of soap, for at least ten minutes. And use a brush for your fingernails. There's all sorts of germs and **** up there yaknow. Davey, who has oft wondered why God blessed Wolfgang with such a marvelous brain only to have him misuse it writing in this nuthouse.... We've got to find something for this little boy to do. |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:2010010422410250878-dplacourse@aolcom... hmmm.....we have a 5 year limit on welfare, since the '90s and they're 3rd generation?? Sometimes, we think we see, but don't, if you get what I mean. You have judged them 'pathetic'. You have guessed they 'vote Obama all the way', and that they wish to continue a lifestyle of dependance on your food kitchen. It might not be them that's pathetic....... Tom |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-05 05:39:19 -0500, "Tom Littleton" said:
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:2010010422410250878-dplacourse@aolcom... hmmm.....we have a 5 year limit on welfare, since the '90s and they're 3rd generation?? Sometimes, we think we see, but don't, if you get what I mean. You have judged them 'pathetic'. You have guessed they 'vote Obama all the way', and that they wish to continue a lifestyle of dependance on your food kitchen. It might not be them that's pathetic....... Tom I know *personally* the three generation remark. My own brother was on welfare, his youngest followed in his steps, and one of her children was on welfare. My neice still lives in subsidized housing, as did my brother until he died. When I see the same people for more than 3 years coming to get their once-a-month food allowance and they have their children with their children in tow, yeah, I see third generation poverty, three generations that have not advanced, who have been lost, swept between the cracks in the floor, and the only answer you have is to turn away and ignore them? Shame on you. I call them pathetic meaning sad, not *your* usual meaning of the word contemptuous pity. There are five food banks/pantries available to them once a month. They visit all of them and get enough food for an entire month. That is sad. A five year limit on welfare? There is no limit on how long these sad souls can live in subsidized housing or visit the food pantries. For two or three weeks after the 2008 election, many of the clients were overwhelmed with joy. It was like their messiah had finally come home. I don't know if they even voted, but they sure as hell were glad that Obama and all of his fluff promises was elected. The same people three days a week, 52 weeks a year for several years. *That* is pathetic (my definition, not yours). We have literally lost three generations of peope because they rely on government entitlements. But thinks are looking up, Tom. With the redistribution of wealth that Obama and Emanuel want, these poor souls will have as much as you and I have -- we'll all be pathetic (my definition, not yours). Of course the ruling class, Obama, Biden, the Kennedys, Bushes, Cheney, et al will continue their rape of the people. Dave |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
David LaCourse wrote:
Jo and I move to Georgia on Thursday. We both plan to do the same thing down there. i'll be interested in your comparison of northern, taxachusetts welfare programs and clientele with those in the north jawja republican mountains... jeff |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-05 10:01:47 -0500, jeff said:
David LaCourse wrote: Jo and I move to Georgia on Thursday. We both plan to do the same thing down there. i'll be interested in your comparison of northern, taxachusetts welfare programs and clientele with those in the north jawja republican mountains... jeff Republican mountains? News to me. But, I will try and campare the difference if/when we can find a place to volunteer. We are about 30 miles from *any place*. You, Rachel, and the pup must visit if for no other reason that to watch the sunset. Dave |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 5, 5:47*am, David LaCourse wrote:
SNIP three days a week, 52 weeks a year for several years. **That* is pathetic (my definition, not yours). *We have literally lost three generations of peope because they rely on government entitlements. But thinks are looking up, Tom. *With the redistribution of wealth that Obama and Emanuel want, these poor souls will have as much as you and I have -- we'll all be pathetic (my definition, not yours). *Of course the ruling class, Obama, Biden, the Kennedys, Bushes, Cheney, et al will continue their rape of the people. Dave David You may not like what I am about to say, nor will some others here, LIB and TORY alike. No blame or personal criticism is intended. I am talking here about all of us. . . men, sons, husbands, fathers, uncles, brothers, bros in law, grand fathers, patriarchs, and one of the responsibilities I believe we have as men. The research on poverty seems to support the conclusion that the single biggest factor in breaking an individual's cycle of poverty and public dependency . . . is the support and intervention of family members. The public "second chance" programs by and large serve those people whose family (or church) will not or cannot help them. You want to help? You have the time and resources? Help your own blood first. You've tried? Try again. No blame or criticism here; Ive seen lots of people dumped on the public till, from families which have the resources to help their own. I have little basis for thinking that the proportions vary by political outlook, but libs and tories do talk about it differently. Probably over generalizing but . . . LIBs try to intercede to get their family members into services, fudging eligibility, and freeing themselves from personal responsibility. TORIES tend to draw behavioral lines in the sand, and when the family member fails, the Tory removes the support or the promise of support and talks about "tough love" as the rationale for not taking personal responsibility for helping the family member. Sure, some intersession and some "tough love" are always needed. But taking responsibility, earning patriarchy, keeping things up close and personal are critical for helping fallen family. Bottomline is the public and the churches and the food banks and the shelters have to fill the gap, while both political sides heckle. I think we all can do better giving a helping hand to needy and imperfect family members by being persistent, hanging in there and never giving up.. The other side of this equation sums up like this . . . Family abuse of other family members is also a large factor in retraining and substance sobriety program dropouts. In my career I did a number of post mortems of failed retraining program agencies. ie pawing thru all the files, the finances, tracking down people, re-interviewing, looking at outcomes and what happened to clients. One conclusion I came to was that for these failed service providers, the single most frequent cause for not completing a training program or employment readiness program for women and male youth was . . . being beaten, The termination stats listed these as "health" or "medical" or "Death, " but the files told the story. These are harder and more dangerous situations to get involved in especially so with family. Be that as it may, men can and should step up when this effects family. Man to man conversations and if necessary, a little physical counseling can go a long way. Dave |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-05 15:12:54 -0500, DaveS said:
On Jan 5, 5:47*am, David LaCourse wrote: SNIP three days a week, 52 weeks a year for several years. **That* is pathetic (my definition, not yours). *We have literally lost three generations of peope because they rely on government entitlements. But thinks are looking up, Tom. *With the redistribution of wealth that Obama and Emanuel want, these poor souls will have as much as you and I have -- we'll all be pathetic (my definition, not yours). *Of course the ruling class, Obama, Biden, the Kennedys, Bushes, Cheney, et al will continue their rape of the people. Dave David You may not like what I am about to say, nor will some others here, LIB and TORY alike. No blame or personal criticism is intended. I am talking here about all of us. . . men, sons, husbands, fathers, uncles, brothers, bros in law, grand fathers, patriarchs, and one of the responsibilities I believe we have as men. The research on poverty seems to support the conclusion that the single biggest factor in breaking an individual's cycle of poverty and public dependency . . . is the support and intervention of family members. The public "second chance" programs by and large serve those people whose family (or church) will not or cannot help them. You want to help? You have the time and resources? Help your own blood first. You've tried? Try again. No blame or criticism here; Ive seen lots of people dumped on the public till, from families which have the resources to help their own. I have little basis for thinking that the proportions vary by political outlook, but libs and tories do talk about it differently. Probably over generalizing but . . . LIBs try to intercede to get their family members into services, fudging eligibility, and freeing themselves from personal responsibility. TORIES tend to draw behavioral lines in the sand, and when the family member fails, the Tory removes the support or the promise of support and talks about "tough love" as the rationale for not taking personal responsibility for helping the family member. Sure, some intersession and some "tough love" are always needed. But taking responsibility, earning patriarchy, keeping things up close and personal are critical for helping fallen family. Bottomline is the public and the churches and the food banks and the shelters have to fill the gap, while both political sides heckle. I think we all can do better giving a helping hand to needy and imperfect family members by being persistent, hanging in there and never giving up.. The other side of this equation sums up like this . . . Family abuse of other family members is also a large factor in retraining and substance sobriety program dropouts. In my career I did a number of post mortems of failed retraining program agencies. ie pawing thru all the files, the finances, tracking down people, re-interviewing, looking at outcomes and what happened to clients. One conclusion I came to was that for these failed service providers, the single most frequent cause for not completing a training program or employment readiness program for women and male youth was . . . being beaten, The termination stats listed these as "health" or "medical" or "Death, " but the files told the story. These are harder and more dangerous situations to get involved in especially so with family. Be that as it may, men can and should step up when this effects family. Man to man conversations and if necessary, a little physical counseling can go a long way. Dave Wish I had said that! d;o) I agree whole heartedly, but the health/medical thingy has changed since I was a kid. When I grew up in the 40s/early 50s, there was no health care. How the hell did we survive, I wonder. Today IS different because of the rise in cancer, hiv, aids, heart disease, etc. But back then, few people got really sick. I don't remember anyone going to the hospital, and I lost only one member of the family, a fly fishing/duck hunting uncle who died from pancreatic cancer in 1959 while I was in Japan protecting your sorry ass from the communist hordes. d;o) The male patriarch of a family has aways been important in any family, if for no other reason than to set an example and teach. One thing that was very important when I was a boy - grandparents. Just about every house in my neighborhood had a Nana, or Pop, or gramma/pa. As well as the love, discipline, teaching of parents, there was the same responsibility wth grand parents. Grand parents are something that most kids today only see on special occasions, unless ya have one living with you. I feel blessed to have had my oldest grandson living with us for the past five years, and now his brother has moved in and will watch the house while we are in Georgia Not to bore you with further pantry stories, but I know of several women, regular clients of the pantry, that have numerous children with numerous fathers, and there is little, IF ANY, child support be it monitary or advisory by said fathers. It is a big problem with our country, and one that most countries do not have to deal with. I agree with the main gist of your post, Dave. Like I said, wish I had said that. Dave |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:2010010508470016807-dplacourse@aolcom... the only answer you have is to turn away and ignore them? no, I'm saying generation to generation poverty has been part of our economy since this nation started. Nothing 'pathetic' about it, it's built into the system. It's good that you do something to help. I try to do likewise. Shame on you. I call them pathetic meaning sad, not *your* usual meaning of the word contemptuous pity. There are five food banks/pantries available to them once a month. They visit all of them and get enough food for an entire month. That is sad. A five year limit on welfare? There is no limit on how long these sad souls can live in subsidized housing or visit the food pantries. no. And, while you might backpedal now and parse your use of pathetic, you are all too willing to guess about their politics/voting(as if you really know) and pass judgement elsewhere. We have literally lost three generations of peope because they rely on government entitlements. this is where you let politics get in the way of clear thinking. We've had poverty, generation-to-generation poverty, and you apparently only started noticing it in the past 20 years. Hell, the same families that were poor in VA in 1800 still are today. Sure, there are a few that break the cycle, but the system is set up to make that a challenge. One of the greatest crocks o' crap ever sold is the Horatio Alger ideal. By and large, our nation just doesn't work that way. Perhaps, in Obama, they felt they saw someone who might effect a change in that. In my experiences, most of the folks who I've encountered receiving welfare, food stamps, going to the food bank, etc., don't like that situation, and work like the devil to change it. Sometimes, they get discouraged, but by and large, it is not some sort of lifestyle choice. Tom |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 5, 12:39*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
Wish I had said that! *d;o) *I agree whole heartedly, but the health/medical thingy has changed since I was a kid. *When I grew up in the 40s/early 50s, there was no health care. *How the hell did we survive, I wonder. * Must have been the leeches. |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:201001041720588930-dplacourse@aolcom... They truly need help, but many have made bad decisions and continue to make more bad decisions, and ride the system for all it's worth. They are happy with their lives, afaik, and wouldn't change if it meant working for what they get. and, if you wonder, THIS is the absolute piece of stupidity that drew my ire. You dare to call yourself a Christian?? Judge not, lest......etc, etc. Tom |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 5, 4:39*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:2010010422410250878-dplacourse@aolcom... hmmm.....we have a 5 year limit on welfare, since the '90s and they're 3rd generation?? Depends on what kind of welfare. Remember, you're talking to someone with a lifetime of first hand experience. Sometimes, we think we see, but don't, if you get what I mean. You have judged them 'pathetic'. You have guessed they 'vote Obama all the way', and that they wish to continue a lifestyle of dependance on your food kitchen. It might not be them that's pathetic........ Well. that's all true enough. |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 5, 7:47*am, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-01-05 05:39:19 -0500, "Tom Littleton" said: "David LaCourse" wrote in message news:2010010422410250878-dplacourse@aolcom... hmmm.....we have a 5 year limit on welfare, since the '90s and they're 3rd generation?? Sometimes, we think we see, but don't, if you get what I mean. You have judged them 'pathetic'. You have guessed they 'vote Obama all the way', and that they wish to continue a lifestyle of dependance on your food kitchen. It might not be them that's pathetic........ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tom I know *personally* the three generation remark. *My own brother was on welfare, his youngest followed in his steps, and one of her children was on welfare. *My neice still lives in subsidized housing, as did my brother until he died. When I see the same people for more than 3 years coming to get their once-a-month food allowance and they have their children with their children in tow, yeah, I see third generation poverty, three generations that have not advanced, who have been lost, swept between the cracks in the floor, and the only answer you have is to turn away and ignore them? *Shame on you. *I call them pathetic meaning sad, not *your* usual meaning of the word contemptuous pity. There are five food banks/pantries available to them once a month. * They visit all of them and get enough food for an entire month. *That is sad. *A five year limit on welfare? *There is no limit on how long these sad souls can live in subsidized housing or visit the food pantries. For two or three weeks after the 2008 election, many of the clients were overwhelmed with joy. *It was like their messiah had finally come home. *I don't know if they even voted, but they sure as hell were glad that Obama and all of his fluff promises was elected. *The same people three days a week, 52 weeks a year for several years. **That* is pathetic (my definition, not yours). *We have literally lost three generations of peope because they rely on government entitlements. But thinks are looking up, Tom. *With the redistribution of wealth that Obama and Emanuel want, these poor souls will have as much as you and I have -- we'll all be pathetic (my definition, not yours). *Of course the ruling class, Obama, Biden, the Kennedys, Bushes, Cheney, et al will continue their rape of the people. Why do you people argue with this evil pig? Seriously. giles. |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 4, 9:51*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-01-04 21:30:04 -0500, Giles said: On Jan 4, 4:20 pm, David LaCourse wrote: On 2010-01-04 14:48:33 -0500, DaveS said: On Jan 4, 5:10 am, David LaCourse wrote: No, that is what he is saying. However, from my experience, he is wrong (at least here in the left wingnut state of Massachusetts). I work in a food pantry and I've yet to meet someone like Dave has described. Most of our clients have been coming to the pantry for years. There has been new ones in the past year, but they are the working poor, and from talking with them, I doubt any are Republicans let alone conservatives. Most of the volunteers did not vote for Obama. All of the clients probably did vote for Obama. Dave - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well OK 1. No I am not saying that a disproportionate number of conservatives are going to food banks. How could I know that? Maybe we have different definitions of proportionate? For me, it would mean that a higher proportion (%) of the total universe of conservatives are coming to food banks, THAN the proportion (%) of the universe of others who come to food banks. 2. What I am saying is that based on my experiences in the past, and some current observations and info, I believe that a larger number of people with conservative political beliefs are coming to food banks (and other human services) than do in non recessionary times. Could be true, I guess. But, in my experience looking over the past year most of the new clients at the food bank I volunteer at are the working poor, blue collar workers, not your typical conservative. This is also true at three or four other food banks/pantries in the area that I am familiar with, including one in a well-to-do community. And . . . 3. Again from experience, not survey or experiment, these folk are typically new comers to needing assistance and are often very emotional, sometimes hostile and demanding, and rarely but regularly threatening. Its hard times and they are not used to asking for help. I have experienced many new comers to the food pantry and all find it humiliating. A single black mom, very well dressed, came in about two months ago for the first time. She took her number and had a seat in the corner were she silently cried. She had been employed in a well paying job from the looks of her clothes, and during a conversation I got the feeling she was obviously educated. I talked with her in private and tried to assure her that there was no shame in asking for help and that it would only be temporary in her case. Others also seemed humiliated and embarrassed by the experience. And, yes, I would be too. 4. Hello, I was responding to Beanster's characterization that libs typically walk by a beaten man and are more concerned with criminals than victims. Rightwingers love those kind of jokes which imply that wingnuts are stand-up heroes, without actually helping anybody. Bonhoeffer called stuff like this "cheap grace." I think. Well, to begin with, to have "grace" they would need to be Christian. I'm not arguing with Bonhoeffer, but I believe a true Christian is a loving person, willing to give back with his/her time, treasures, and talents. There is no "cheap grace". You can't earn grace, and although good works are not necessary, every Christian I know does some sort of extra work and is generous with his/her time and money. As far as making a joke about libs walking past a beaten man...... well, that attitude, true or false, had to start somewhere. I once heard a women friend in the singing group I once belonged to say that she felt sorry for this particular criminal who had killed someone. She said he was a "product of his environment." She showed no such pity for the innocent person killed as we talked about the crime. I have seen this same attitude at a national level. Can't recall the name of the guilty person in jail, but he was black, "a product of his environment", was found guilty by overwhelming evidence, yet the liberal press and hollywood types *demanded* he be let go. I think that there is a history of such things happening. I grew up dirt poor. I was NOT a product of my environment. No one is. We all have choices in life. Side note: By the way, Working poor people are not somehow immune to voting R or immune to conservative political belief, particularly around issues like abortion, unionization, etc.. Karl Rove sure knew that in the 2004 Ohio election, and wasn't there this Reagan fellow who . . . . No they aren't. But the poor I see on a daily basis are 100% Obamites, and the "change" they want is more entitlements. I know, I know, someone will brand me as a bigoted blowhard ******* for having said that, but it is the truth. They truly need help, but many have made bad decisions and continue to make more bad decisions, and ride the system for all it's worth. They are happy with their lives, afaik, and wouldn't change if it meant working for what they get. Since to your knowledge no conservative has come into the food pantry where you volunteer, to ask for assistance or acted emotionally, you apparently have touched the elephant in a different place. ;+)) Well, it all depends on one's perspective, but that has been my experience, Dave. One must also remember that being a conservative does not automatically mean that person is a Republican. I grew very poor and my parents were conservative Democrats. d;o) (After thought: I doubt my parents, if alive, would today vote Democrat. Their Democrat party has changed. It is not the party today of JFK. Remember the first thing he did when he became prez? I will never forget - he gave everyone a very nice tax break. More money to spend meant more income for the government.) Dave By the way the most hostile and demanding laid off people in my experience base were defense workers, engineers and middle managers. The most appreciative, positive and eager to retrain (?) . . . people like laid off sawmill workers in Snoqualemie and paper workers out on the Coast. And all these groups got (get?)enhanced services, and deeper support. You figure. Hmmmm. Well, I know of two 6 figure friends, both engineers, who have been unemployed for awhile (one for almost two years). They are both in their 50s, would accept under-paid positions, and both have been retrained, one as a truck driver. Neither has given up hope of finding a job. One, married to a working nurse, is slowly spending his 401K and has moved into a smaller home. They'll survive. You and I, Dave, are very fortunate. I count my blessings daily, and I'm sure you do too. Dave Good god, you are an idiot. And a pig. And a liar. g. well, yeah, not necessarily in that order. Hey, don't forget to wash your hands in very hot water, lots of soap, for at least ten minutes. *And use a brush for your fingernails. * There's all sorts of germs and **** up there yaknow. There's lots of germs and **** everywhere. Funny that they never hurt anybody before the 40s and early 50s, though. Davey, who has oft wondered why God blessed Wolfgang with such a marvelous brain only to have him misuse it writing in this nuthouse.... *We've got to find something for this little boy to do. Keep us posted. pig. idiot. g. |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 5, 5:51*pm, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:201001041720588930-dplacourse@aolcom... *They truly need help, but many have made bad decisions and continue to make more bad decisions, and ride the system for all it's worth. They are happy with their lives, afaik, and wouldn't change if it meant working for what they get. and, if you wonder, THIS is the absolute piece of stupidity that drew my ire. You dare to call yourself a Christian?? Judge not, lest......etc, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Tom Ire? See, that's what happens one fails to see the irony.....a nearly complete immunity to low humor. giles |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-05 18:18:22 -0500, " said:
On Jan 5, 12:39*pm, David LaCourse wrote: Wish I had said that! *d;o) *I agree whole heartedly, but the health/medical thingy has changed since I was a kid. *When I grew up in the 40s/early 50s, there was no health care. *How the hell did we survive, I wonder. * Must have been the leeches. Or the mustard plasters. |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 5, 3:51*pm, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
SNIP Tom, you and I and a few others see some things the same and a few other things not at all the same. And with Dave and me maybe the proportions are different but we do share some things in common. Bottom line for me is whatever our individual starting places, I doubt there is anyone here who could not do better, do more, be better men when it comes to some of these social and family issues like we talk about. Then there's the question of what do group members really share. In the wide sense, everyone associated with this group, including Beanster, M---, bummed out formers, etc everyone shares a raft of beliefs about the natural world, wild things, and the performance of the fishing ritual. That's a lot, not everything but allot. Maybe that's as good as it gets for testosterone friendly groups. But it doesn't answer the question of why so much effort and ego goes into the political stuff.(?) Dave Meaculpa |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-01-05 10:01:47 -0500, jeff said: David LaCourse wrote: Jo and I move to Georgia on Thursday. We both plan to do the same thing down there. i'll be interested in your comparison of northern, taxachusetts welfare programs and clientele with those in the north jawja republican mountains... jeff Republican mountains? News to me. But, I will try and campare the difference if/when we can find a place to volunteer. We are about 30 miles from *any place*. You, Rachel, and the pup must visit if for no other reason that to watch the sunset. Dave the mountains of nc, tenn, and jawja are notoriously republican. tough for a liberal democrat to breathe the political air up there. g the pup is still a bit rambunctious for polite company, but i hope we can visit with y'all at your new place one of these days. it's an easy drive from snowbird... jeff |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
question of what do group members really share. In the wide sense, everyone associated with this group, including Beanster, M---, bummed out formers, etc everyone shares a raft of beliefs about the natural world, wild things, and the performance of the fishing ritual. That's a lot, not everything but allot. Maybe that's as good as it gets for testosterone friendly groups. But it doesn't answer the question of why so much effort and ego goes into the political stuff.(?) Dave Meaculpa When youi find the answer to this please let me know Perhaps the flame wars on ROFF answer your question re political feud and others as a microcosm They are definitely ego related An isolated group w/ similar interests and there are ridiculous wars I guess that Humans fight politically for ego & testosterone driven ideals??? In the real world - Sometimes they kill ea other and a whole lot of effort, lives $$$ ,ego and testerone is devoted and spent on these real wars It's nuts So again if you get the answer please lemme' know Mea culpa tambien Soren Kierkegaard |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-05 17:21:22 -0500, "Tom Littleton" said:
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:2010010508470016807-dplacourse@aolcom... the only answer you have is to turn away and ignore them? no, I'm saying generation to generation poverty has been part of our economy since this nation started. Nothing 'pathetic' about it, it's built into the system. It's good that you do something to help. I try to do likewise. It's not built into the system, you yo-yo. Every kid in my neighborhood "made it", even the few the went to jail at 18 yo. Sure, there must be someplace, probably in WV or Kentucky where poverty continues generation to generation, but what I see, the people I see and try to help, are habitual. Many of them have become accustomed to their way of life. And, like David has noted, there is no male, no father or grandfather, in their lives. Many of the woman, as I have stated, have multiple children by multiple men. THAT is a decision. That is a choise they have made. That is what makes them pathetic (sad). That is only part of the problem. We have more men and women (as a % of the over-all population) incarcerated in this country than any other. Many of those at the pantry have someone behind bars. Shame on you. I call them pathetic meaning sad, not *your* usual meaning of the word contemptuous pity. There are five food banks/pantries available to them once a month. They visit all of them and get enough food for an entire month. That is sad. A five year limit on welfare? There is no limit on how long these sad souls can live in subsidized housing or visit the food pantries. no. And, while you might backpedal now and parse your use of pathetic, you are all too willing to guess about their politics/voting(as if you really know) and pass judgement elsewhere. I'm not parsing my use of pathetic. I have always used it when describing the people that I have come in contact with, and its meaning has always been sad, not contempuous pity like you always use. I may pity some of these folks, but it is not contempuous. I have no contemp for them, just pity and sadness. We have literally lost three generations of peope because they rely on government entitlements. this is where you let politics get in the way of clear thinking. What politics? That several generations of poor people have become reliant on the U.S. Government for their existence? Sorry, but that's not politics, Tom. That pure American history. We've had poverty, generation-to-generation poverty, and you apparently only started noticing it in the past 20 years. I started noticing it when I was a kid and my father brought home to me argyle socks, *woolen* argyle socks, that his boss' children wore. I started noticing poverty when it dawned on me that I had to get a paper route if I wanted things. And if I really wanted things, like my *own* argyle socks, I had to pick shade grown tobaccoo at age 14. I noticed it when we turned on the hot water heater to take a bath. Don't talk to me about poverty, Tom. But I was more fortunate than many kids in my neighborhood. My father wasn't a drunk and worked hard, until dying at age 67 behind the wheel of his tanker rig. He and my mom taught me to fish, both spin and fly, and I was the only kid in the neighborhood to go on a vacation every summer with his parents. Hell, the same families that were poor in VA in 1800 still are today. Sure, there are a few that break the cycle, but the system is set up to make that a challenge. Horse caca. Yeah, there is generation to generation poverty in the coal country of WV, VA, and Appiliatia in general. And if those kids were taught better in school that they too could become someone, if they were taught that serving in the military is a great way to break out of the same poverty routine they've seen all their lives, perhaps they could. Challenge, smallenge. Who the hell has NOT been challenged in life? All of life is a challenge and if you don't learn that early in your life, you probably are doomed. One of the greatest crocks o' crap ever sold is the Horatio Alger ideal. By and large, our nation just doesn't work that way. Another horse caca. Tell that to Hector, Norman, Ralph, Richard, Junior, et al. All kids I grew up with in poverty. We all made it. Tell that to my two nephews who got bad conduct discharges from the Army and Navy and have grown up to be successful tradesmen. Tell it to Bill Gates. Perhaps, in Obama, they felt they saw someone who might effect a change in that. In my experiences, most of the folks who I've encountered receiving welfare, food stamps, going to the food bank, etc., don't like that situation, and work like the devil to change it. Sometimes, they get discouraged, but by and large, it is not some sort of lifestyle choice. More caca, Tom. Periodically, maybe three or four times a year for at least a month, we have to fill out some paperwork for each of our clients. One of the questions is, "Do you work." All answer no. The next question is "Are you capable of working?" Some say yes, most say no. Yes, some break out of the system and become self reliant, but as a whole, most do not (not including elderly in that). That's why we see them week, month, year after year. And, it is going to get worse, Tom. Count on it. Unemployment is going to rise because nothing is being done to check it. You do not raise taxes in hard times. You lower them. The best Dem in my life, JFK, was aware of that little economic tid bit. Perhaps that is why I voted for the man. Dave |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-05 21:34:54 -0500, Giles said:
On Jan 5, 4:39*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote: "David LaCourse" wrote in message news:2010010422410250878-dplacourse@aolcom... hmmm.....we have a 5 year limit on welfare, since the '90s and they're 3rd generation?? Depends on what kind of welfare. Remember, you're talking to someone with a lifetime of first hand experience. Yes, along with Frank Reid and every retired military person out there. Davey |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-05 18:51:02 -0500, "Tom Littleton" said:
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:201001041720588930-dplacourse@aolcom... They truly need help, but many have made bad decisions and continue to make more bad decisions, and ride the system for all it's worth. They are happy with their lives, afaik, and wouldn't change if it meant working for what they get. and, if you wonder, THIS is the absolute piece of stupidity that drew my ire. You dare to call yourself a Christian?? Judge not, lest......etc, etc. Get off your high horse, Rev. Tom. They *have* made bad decisions, and *continue* to make bad decisions. And they seem happy. I talk at length with many of them and they seem like happy people. But the U.S. Government has supported them for years and years. It has become a way of life. I am not, nor do I mean, to judge anyone of these people. Their choices in life were bad. If that is judging them, then I am guilty. But, your words come right back at you, Tom. You're judging me. No mistaking that! |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 5, 4:21*pm, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:2010010508470016807-dplacourse@aolcom... the only answer you have is to turn away and ignore them? no, I'm saying generation to generation poverty has been part of our economy since this nation started. Nothing 'pathetic' about it, it's built into the system. It's good that you do something to help. I try to do likewise. *Shame on you. *I call them pathetic meaning sad, not *your* usual meaning of the word contemptuous pity. There are five food banks/pantries available to them once a month. *They visit all of them and get enough food for an entire month. *That is sad. *A five year limit on welfare? *There is no limit on how long these sad souls can live in subsidized housing or visit the food pantries. no. And, while you might backpedal now and parse your use of pathetic, you are all too willing to guess about their politics/voting(as if you really know) and pass judgement elsewhere. We have literally lost three generations of peope because they rely on government entitlements. this is where you let politics get in the way of clear thinking. We've had poverty, generation-to-generation poverty, and you apparently only started noticing it in the past 20 years. Hell, the same families that were poor in VA in 1800 still are today. Sure, there are a few that break the cycle, but the system is set up to make that a challenge. Well........DUH..........LIFE is a challenge. One of the greatest crocks o' crap ever sold is the Horatio Alger ideal. Almost all those achievers I know came from loooowwwww beginnings. They did so by working hard and recognizing what is important and what is not. By and large, our nation just doesn't work that way. Perhaps, in Obama, they felt they saw someone who might effect a change in that. In my experiences, most of the folks who I've encountered receiving welfare, food stamps, going to the food bank, etc., don't like that situation, and work like the devil to change it. Then they chose the wrong devil. Working hard doesn't help. You must work smart. Working hard to make a great mud pie gives you a..........mud pie. Sometimes, they get discouraged, but by and large, it is not some sort of lifestyle choice. With few exceptions (physical impairment, etc.) is IS a choice. cheers oz, who makes choices |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 5, 5:51*pm, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"David LaCourse" wrote in message news:201001041720588930-dplacourse@aolcom... *They truly need help, but many have made bad decisions and continue to make more bad decisions, and ride the system for all it's worth. They are happy with their lives, afaik, and wouldn't change if it meant working for what they get. and, if you wonder, THIS is the absolute piece of stupidity that drew my ire. You dare to call yourself a Christian?? Judge not, lest......etc, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Tom Observations are not judgments. cheers oz |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
On Jan 5, 10:01*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-01-05 21:34:54 -0500, Giles said: On Jan 5, 4:39*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote: "David LaCourse" wrote in message news:2010010422410250878-dplacourse@aolcom... hmmm.....we have a 5 year limit on welfare, since the '90s and they're 3rd generation?? Depends on what kind of welfare. *Remember, you're talking to someone with a lifetime of first hand experience. Yes, along with Frank Reid and every retired military person out there. Could you expand, somewhat, on your intended meaning, please? cheers oz |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
"MajorOz" wrote in message ... On Jan 5, 5:51 pm, "Tom Littleton" wrote: "David LaCourse" wrote in message news:201001041720588930-dplacourse@aolcom... They truly need help, but many have made bad decisions and continue to make more bad decisions, and ride the system for all it's worth. They are happy with their lives, afaik, and wouldn't change if it meant working for what they get. and, if you wonder, THIS is the absolute piece of stupidity that drew my ire. You dare to call yourself a Christian?? Judge not, lest......etc, etc. Tom Observations are not judgments. cheers oz Is the above statement an absolute? IYMHO, I mean. Op |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-05 23:53:06 -0500, MajorOz said:
On Jan 5, 10:01*pm, David LaCourse wrote: On 2010-01-05 21:34:54 -0500, Giles said: On Jan 5, 4:39*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote: "David LaCourse" wrote in message news:2010010422410250878-dplacourse@aolcom... hmmm.....we have a 5 year limit on welfare, since the '90s and they're 3rd generation?? Depends on what kind of welfare. *Remember, you're talking to someone with a lifetime of first hand experience. Yes, along with Frank Reid and every retired military person out there. Could you expand, somewhat, on your intended meaning, please? Wolfgang, aka Giles, has called me a welfare queen for several years. He refers to my military retirement as welfare. And, yes, he is bitter about it. Frank Reid is also retired from the military. What is good for me must also apply to my friend Frank. Dave |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
On 2010-01-05 22:28:41 -0500, jeff said:
David LaCourse wrote: On 2010-01-05 10:01:47 -0500, jeff said: David LaCourse wrote: Jo and I move to Georgia on Thursday. We both plan to do the same thing down there. i'll be interested in your comparison of northern, taxachusetts welfare programs and clientele with those in the north jawja republican mountains... jeff Republican mountains? News to me. But, I will try and campare the difference if/when we can find a place to volunteer. We are about 30 miles from *any place*. You, Rachel, and the pup must visit if for no other reason that to watch the sunset. Dave the mountains of nc, tenn, and jawja are notoriously republican. tough for a liberal democrat to breathe the political air up there. g the pup is still a bit rambunctious for polite company, but i hope we can visit with y'all at your new place one of these days. it's an easy drive from snowbird... jeff She can not be more rambunctious than Jenny. d;o) Snowbird and some of those streams we fished years ago are on my agenda for this coming spring. Dave |
"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-01-05 22:28:41 -0500, jeff said: David LaCourse wrote: On 2010-01-05 10:01:47 -0500, jeff said: David LaCourse wrote: Jo and I move to Georgia on Thursday. We both plan to do the same thing down there. i'll be interested in your comparison of northern, taxachusetts welfare programs and clientele with those in the north jawja republican mountains... jeff Republican mountains? News to me. But, I will try and campare the difference if/when we can find a place to volunteer. We are about 30 miles from *any place*. You, Rachel, and the pup must visit if for no other reason that to watch the sunset. Dave the mountains of nc, tenn, and jawja are notoriously republican. tough for a liberal democrat to breathe the political air up there. g the pup is still a bit rambunctious for polite company, but i hope we can visit with y'all at your new place one of these days. it's an easy drive from snowbird... jeff She can not be more rambunctious than Jenny. d;o) Snowbird and some of those streams we fished years ago are on my agenda for this coming spring. Dave this one's a bit psychotic...but fun and loving. keep me posted on your visit to the southern barracks... it's freezing cold down here now, but spring sounds nice. jeff jeff |
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