OT GOP Purge
 

"David LaCourse" wrote in message
news:2010041509072627544-dplacourse@aolcom...
Hmmm. You ain't seen nothing yet, Tom.


I generally operate on that assumption. Life is long, human judgement flawed
often enough and the unforseen far more common than many think it to be.
Tom

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 14, 8:24*am, David LaCourse wrote:
Here's but one opinion, Tom, before I head out for work:

"In my humble opinion, success cannot be measured in the material
things that I have, nor can it be measured by my job title (and I have
a lot of those). To me, success is an inside job. To be successful you
must FEEL successful on the INSIDE.

"You can have all the money, houses and status that you like, but if
you do not FEEL successful on the inside, then you will feel like a
hamster running on it’s wheel in a cage. You’ll be chasing success all
your life and will never achieve it.

"Easy for me to say right?

"Listen, I’ve been in your shoes and have been on the brink of despair
many times. I have been in the eye of the storm more times that I care
to count. I have lived through a dark childhood, I have seen negative
numbers in my bank account, and I have seen the loss of both my parents
to name a few. I made it through to the other side because I never gave
up, and I decided to change how I felt about it all.

"You see when life gets you down and throws you to the ground, you have
two choices … you can lie down there and wallow in it and feel sorry
for yourself, or you can get up. I chose to get up."

Well said, Katherine Giovanni.

And I intend to continue to rise inspite of all the stones thrown at me
on this forum.

Dave

See, that's what we like about you and Katherine.....excess nobility
in the face of horrific hardship.

Idiot.

Pig.

g.

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 15, 3:13*pm, Giles wrote:
On Apr 14, 8:24*am, David LaCourse wrote:





Here's but one opinion, Tom, before I head out for work:

"In my humble opinion, success cannot be measured in the material
things that I have, nor can it be measured by my job title (and I have
a lot of those). To me, success is an inside job. To be successful you
must FEEL successful on the INSIDE.

"You can have all the money, houses and status that you like, but if
you do not FEEL successful on the inside, then you will feel like a
hamster running on it’s wheel in a cage. You’ll be chasing success all
your life and will never achieve it.

"Easy for me to say right?

"Listen, I’ve been in your shoes and have been on the brink of despair
many times. I have been in the eye of the storm more times that I care
to count. I have lived through a dark childhood, I have seen negative
numbers in my bank account, and I have seen the loss of both my parents
to name a few. I made it through to the other side because I never gave
up, and I decided to change how I felt about it all.

"You see when life gets you down and throws you to the ground, you have
two choices … you can lie down there and wallow in it and feel sorry
for yourself, or you can get up. I chose to get up."

Well said, Katherine Giovanni.

And I intend to continue to rise inspite of all the stones thrown at me
on this forum.

Dave

See, that's what we like about you and Katherine.....excess nobility
in the face of horrific hardship.

Idiot.

Pig.

g.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Any word yet on the chessnuts? Will they be sprouted? I am headed to
the dryside site in a week or so. Night time lows there have been
running in the low 40s F. I could plant and mulch with some rain-
spoiled alfalfa mixed with composted piggery goody mix. Or should I
figure on growing them into seedlings for a year or so, then
transplanting? Address? Shipping?

Dave

Dave

OT GOP Purge
 

OT GOP Purge
 

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 19:07:57 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry:
“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness.”
-- John Kenneth Galbraith

Ah...so THAT explains why there are no wealthy "liberals"...

That one touch a nerve, did it ? ;-)

Not in the least - I feel _very_ little need to justify _anything_ to _anyone_,
and esp. not about that for which I've worked toward...if I thought I would feel
the need to "justify" some action I planned to take to anyone, I'd likely not do
it.

HTH,
R

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 15, 7:32*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 19:07:57 -0500, Ken Fortenberry

wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry:
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-- John Kenneth Galbraith

Ah...so THAT explains why there are no wealthy "liberals"...

That one touch a nerve, did it ? ;-)

Not in the least - I feel _very_ little need to justify _anything_ to _anyone_,
and esp. not about that for which I've worked toward...if I thought I would feel
the need to "justify" some action I planned to take to anyone, I'd likely not do
it.

HTH,
R

:)

g.

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 15, 6:03*pm, DaveS wrote:
On Apr 15, 3:13*pm, Giles wrote:





On Apr 14, 8:24*am, David LaCourse wrote:

Here's but one opinion, Tom, before I head out for work:

"In my humble opinion, success cannot be measured in the material
things that I have, nor can it be measured by my job title (and I have
a lot of those). To me, success is an inside job. To be successful you
must FEEL successful on the INSIDE.

"You can have all the money, houses and status that you like, but if
you do not FEEL successful on the inside, then you will feel like a
hamster running on it’s wheel in a cage. You’ll be chasing success all
your life and will never achieve it.

"Easy for me to say right?

"Listen, I’ve been in your shoes and have been on the brink of despair
many times. I have been in the eye of the storm more times that I care
to count. I have lived through a dark childhood, I have seen negative
numbers in my bank account, and I have seen the loss of both my parents
to name a few. I made it through to the other side because I never gave
up, and I decided to change how I felt about it all.

"You see when life gets you down and throws you to the ground, you have
two choices … you can lie down there and wallow in it and feel sorry
for yourself, or you can get up. I chose to get up."

Well said, Katherine Giovanni.

And I intend to continue to rise inspite of all the stones thrown at me
on this forum.

Dave

See, that's what we like about you and Katherine.....excess nobility
in the face of horrific hardship.

Idiot.

Pig.

g.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Any word yet on the chessnuts? Will they be sprouted? I am headed to
the dryside site in a week or so. Night time lows there have been
running in the low 40s F. I could plant and mulch with some rain-
spoiled alfalfa mixed with composted piggery goody mix. Or should I
figure on growing them into seedlings for a year or so, then
transplanting? Address? Shipping?

Dave

Dave- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Funny you should menion that. Not two minutes ago I was outside
looking at the last two survivors of last years crop and thinking
about sending out an update on this year's. I don't know what
happened (or, to be more precise, WHY it happened) but this year
germination has been very low among the seeds stratified in the
refrigerator. There has also been a mildew problem. That said, a few
seeds have germinated in the last week or so. It seems that now is
probably about as good a time as any to send them out. I won't be
able to do anything till about this time next week. Anyone still
interested should get mailing addresses and quanity desired to me in
the next few days. I'll try to get them all posted by a week from
tomorrow.

As to planting, direct seeding seems to be the best option....in
general. That's how the trees do it, right? But starting in pots is
often more practical for a variety of reasons. If seeded directly,
they need to be protected from rodents and other vermin out in the
field where you probably won't be most of the time....etc. In either
case, this protection needs to continue for at least three or our
years. In pots, close to home, they can be closey monitored, watered
and whatnot all. You know your position and schedule best. The trees
don't care much about love and respect, but they do their best work
unencumbered by pests, drought, flooding, frost and all that ****.

giles.

OT GOP Purge
 

OT GOP Purge
 

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 09:41:03 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry:
“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness.”
-- John Kenneth Galbraith

Ah...so THAT explains why there are no wealthy "liberals"...

That one touch a nerve, did it ? ;-)

Not in the least - I feel _very_ little need to justify _anything_ to _anyone_,
and esp. not about that for which I've worked toward...if I thought I would feel
the need to "justify" some action I planned to take to anyone, I'd likely not do
it.

That's quite the performance of the "Dance of the Non Sequiturs".
The search for a superior moral philosophy is a mental exercise,
not an action one plans to take.

And there's not a lot of what I'd call "work" involved in being
born with a silver spoon in your mouth. What you call "work" is
what a lot of folks call "managing the family fortune" and a lot
of folks do that at the kitchen table after they've finished their
full day of "work".

Shows what you know - running a sausage plantation whilst making sure one's
manservant doesn't mis-mix the cocktails is a big job...why, shucks, in the last
year, I've had to get up before noon at least twice, and at least once a month,
the work day lasts for over an hour...

HTH,
R
....I mean, the serfs don't just whip themselves, donchaknow...

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 16, 7:41*am, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry:
“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- John Kenneth Galbraith

Ah...so THAT explains why there are no wealthy "liberals"...

That one touch a nerve, did it ? ;-)

Not in the least - I feel _very_ little need to justify _anything_ to _anyone_,
and esp. not about that for which I've worked toward...if I thought I would feel
the need to "justify" some action I planned to take to anyone, I'd likely not do
it.

That's quite the performance of the "Dance of the Non Sequiturs".
The search for a superior moral philosophy is a mental exercise,
not an action one plans to take.

And there's not a lot of what I'd call "work" involved in being
born with a silver spoon in your mouth. What you call "work" is
what a lot of folks call "managing the family fortune" and a lot
of folks do that at the kitchen table after they've finished their
full day of "work".

--
Ken Fortenberry- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The morality of wealth discussion, like so many other things,
generally dances over so much so as to approach meaninglessness. I am
a progressive, lib in some simplistic seeking minds, pretty "green,"
mostly vote "D" unless the candidate is a known child molester or
there is a decent "R" running for auditor or treasurer at the
courthouse, and etc etc. And although Id be considered in asset terms
(not income terms) well off, I could and have on occasion worked up a
rant or two on the evils of wealth. However . . . I would like to
point out a few things.

1. The econ system of this country is fundamentally capitalist. That
is the reality. 2. Much of the environmentally critical land and water
in the USA is owned and managed by people of wealth. For better or
worse they are important stewards.
3. At the ground level, day to day, government and regulation of these
private lands, specifically ag and forest lands, is at best a mixed
blessing. Govt favors big business and the environmental mismanagement
of grazing, mining and energy leasing in the West gives thin support
to the idea that govt is mostly the answer.
4. On a day to day basis, decision by decision, how to till, how close
to the waterway, how to rotate crops and stock, what to do with the
poop, how to manage the wind/slope/pests/weeds, how to raise animals
humanely, how/when/and how much to cut, etc etc, not to mention how to
make your efforts profitable, and deal with the legions of regulators,
taxes, subsidies, politicians, well meaning others etc. is pretty damn
complex.
5. But, all the above have much more impact on the current and future
health of the environment than garden variety green advocacy, or the
career- long desk dances of most bureaucrats.
6. I do believe that better understanding and working cooperatively
with private ag and forest land owners could have considerable
positive impact on fish and water quality.

Where am I going with this? To the extent I am correct in assuming
that RD is managing the substantial land and ag assets of his family.
he is probably working physically and intellectually a lot harder than
most "professional" jobs require. Ive a friend who owns/manages 6000
acres plus other stuff, he is working 6 to 9, ends the day with a mask
of dust, lives in a modest house, drives decade old vehicles and each
crop year is probably at risk for a few million. He could make more
money with a 2 year degree in computer science and have to keep up on
a tenth of the science my friend does, "managing his family's land."

I think RDs politics are often way off base, but to assume that he
just floats day to day, silver spoon etc is bull****. Sometimes I
could question his cold-water advise but his advise on mechanical and
land stuff rings true and suggests he has gotten his hands dirty more
than most. And if he manages, and influences the management of . . .
as much land as I think he does, a few decisions on his part will have
much greater impact on our environment than most of the rest of us
will ever have. Not to be too clinical but, these people are or should
be the natural allies of conservation minded fishers and hunters, and
that might require focusing on areas of mutual interest and not on
rhetorical ideological differences.

Dave

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 15, 6:04*pm, Giles wrote:

Sounds like a thin year. Here's what i am thinking: If you got
em . . . send 2-3 dozen. I will plant half out directly where Ive got
some decent subirrigation near a pond, mulched, and Ill put an
expanded plastic mesh sleeve over then as soon as they show. The other
half I will pot and raise a year or so in my fenced garden at the
homeplace. Then next year if more seeds make it thru the winter we can
scale up a little. Ill send an address via Email. OK?

Dave

OT GOP Purge
 

DaveS wrote:
The morality of wealth discussion, like so many other things,
generally dances over so much so as to approach meaninglessness. I am
a progressive, lib in some simplistic seeking minds, pretty "green,"
mostly vote "D" unless the candidate is a known child molester or
there is a decent "R" running for auditor or treasurer at the
courthouse, and etc etc. And although Id be considered in asset terms
(not income terms) well off, I could and have on occasion worked up a
rant or two on the evils of wealth. However . . .

Since I am now wealthy myself and just beginning to appreciate the
complexities of agribusiness in 21st century America

I would like to
point out a few things.
snip

OK. Thanks.

Point is, working for yourself is a great gig if you can get it
and I don't know anyone who wouldn't rather manage the family
fortune full-time rather than having to hold down a job.

--
Ken Fortenberry

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 16, 1:32*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
DaveS wrote:
The morality of wealth discussion, like so many other things,
generally dances over so much so as to approach meaninglessness. I am
a progressive, lib in some simplistic seeking minds, pretty "green,"
mostly vote "D" unless the candidate is a known child molester or
there is a decent "R" running for auditor or treasurer at the
courthouse, and etc etc. And although Id be considered in asset terms
(not income terms) well off, I could and have on occasion worked up a
rant or two on the evils of wealth. However . . .

Since I am now wealthy myself and just beginning to appreciate the
complexities of agribusiness in 21st century America

I would like to
point out a few things.
snip

OK. Thanks.

Point is, working for yourself is a great gig if you can get it
and I don't know anyone who wouldn't rather manage the family
fortune full-time rather than having to hold down a job.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Well OK.
1. I am not wealthy. I am not a farmer; I am a farm-groupie. I do own
a small amount of ag land mostly for its river, and I am working to
get more shade to cool down the 1/2 mile I control, and switching
crops to keep more water in the river.

2. Separate and apart from how someones "fortune" was made, it is not
just "anyone" thats keeps a large ag/land based "fortune" together
over several generations.

3. "Working for yourself" successfully by definition is a hard "gig"
and one just doesn't "get it," a person creates it, one doesn't just
"hold" it down. Not for long anyway. Ive done both and helped create a
company or two. Doing your own self employed business or a company
start up is kissing away at least 5 years of your life, time with your
kids, etc etc. Working for someone else or in a corporate or public
bureaucracy was lots easier and can have its own advantages as per
creativity etc. But it was definitely easier and sometimes more
lucrative.

4. "Agribusiness." thats as close as suits get to farming. And they
require a porous border, a blind eye from labor law regulators, etc.
but your cheap food still requires lots of physical work, more than
average mental agility, and willingness to work all night in the shop
so the swather cuts clean or the baler works when the moisture level
is just right for the target protein level an hour after sunrise.

5. When you say "I don't know anyone who wouldn't rather manage the
family
fortune full-time rather than having to hold down a job." its simple.
But it's not that simple. I am sure most would agree with you, but
wouldn't have much of a "family fortune" left after a year or two. I
also know a couple of folks who inherited big time ag assets and year
by year are "managing" them into the ground. Sustaining and growing
the productivity and income flows from an ag or forest based "family
fortune" is not a walk in the park. Without some love for the land,
respect for the natural processes and people who make it happen, and a
willingness to work, a family cannot hold onto these kinds of assets
over the generations.

6. Like I said, if RD is managing with reasonable success, a
commercial sized chunk of family land, it is bull**** to fault him for
not "working."

Dave

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 16, 12:32*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 09:41:03 -0500, Ken Fortenberry





wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry:
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- John Kenneth Galbraith

Ah...so THAT explains why there are no wealthy "liberals"...

That one touch a nerve, did it ? ;-)

Not in the least - I feel _very_ little need to justify _anything_ to _anyone_,
and esp. not about that for which I've worked toward...if I thought I would feel
the need to "justify" some action I planned to take to anyone, I'd likely not do
it.

That's quite the performance of the "Dance of the Non Sequiturs".
The search for a superior moral philosophy is a mental exercise,
not an action one plans to take.

And there's not a lot of what I'd call "work" involved in being
born with a silver spoon in your mouth. What you call "work" is
what a lot of folks call "managing the family fortune" and a lot
of folks do that at the kitchen table after they've finished their
full day of "work".

Shows what you know - running a sausage plantation whilst making sure one's
manservant doesn't mis-mix the cocktails is a big job...why, shucks, in the last
year, I've had to get up before noon at least twice, and at least once a month,
the work day lasts for over an hour...

HTH,
R
...I mean, the serfs don't just whip themselves, donchaknow...

Idiot.

g.

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 16, 1:49*pm, DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 7:41*am, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:





wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry:
“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- John Kenneth Galbraith

Ah...so THAT explains why there are no wealthy "liberals"...

That one touch a nerve, did it ? ;-)

Not in the least - I feel _very_ little need to justify _anything_ to _anyone_,
and esp. not about that for which I've worked toward...if I thought I would feel
the need to "justify" some action I planned to take to anyone, I'd likely not do
it.

That's quite the performance of the "Dance of the Non Sequiturs".
The search for a superior moral philosophy is a mental exercise,
not an action one plans to take.

And there's not a lot of what I'd call "work" involved in being
born with a silver spoon in your mouth. What you call "work" is
what a lot of folks call "managing the family fortune" and a lot
of folks do that at the kitchen table after they've finished their
full day of "work".

--
Ken Fortenberry- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The morality of wealth discussion, like so many other things,
generally dances over so much so as to approach meaninglessness. I am
a progressive, lib in some simplistic seeking minds, pretty "green,"
mostly vote "D" unless the candidate is a known child molester or
there is a decent "R" running for auditor or treasurer at the
courthouse, and etc etc. And although Id be considered in asset terms
(not income terms) well off, I could and have on occasion worked up a
rant or two on the evils of wealth. However . . . I would like to
point out a few things.

1. The econ system of this country is fundamentally capitalist. That
is the reality. 2. Much of the environmentally critical land and water
in the USA is owned and managed by people of wealth. For better or
worse they are important stewards.
3. At the ground level, day to day, government and regulation of these
private lands, specifically ag and forest lands, is at best a mixed
blessing. Govt favors big business and the environmental mismanagement
of grazing, mining and energy leasing in the West gives thin support
to the idea that govt is mostly the answer.
4. On a day to day basis, decision by decision, how to till, how close
to the waterway, how to rotate crops and stock, what to do with the
poop, how to manage the wind/slope/pests/weeds, how to raise animals
humanely, how/when/and how much to cut, etc etc, not to mention how to
make your efforts profitable, and deal with the legions of regulators,
taxes, subsidies, politicians, well meaning others etc. is pretty damn
complex.
5. But, all the above have much more impact on the current and future
health of the environment than garden variety green advocacy, or the
career- long desk dances of most bureaucrats.

All true enough.

6. I do believe that better understanding and working cooperatively
with private ag and forest land owners could have considerable
positive impact on fish and water quality.

Or, as in the past, it could once again have a profoundly catastrophic
impact.

Cooperation SOUNDS positive, but it ain't necessarily.

Where am I going with this? To the extent I am correct in assuming
that RD is managing the substantial land and ag assets of his family.
he is probably working physically and intellectually a lot harder than
most "professional" jobs require. Ive a friend who owns/manages 6000
acres plus other stuff, he is working 6 to 9, ends the day with a mask
of dust, lives in a modest house, drives decade old vehicles and each
crop year is probably at risk for a few million. He could make more
money with a 2 year degree in computer science and have to keep up on
a tenth of the science my friend does, "managing his family's land."

I think RDs politics are often way off base, but to assume that he
just floats day to day, silver spoon etc is bull****. Sometimes I
could question his cold-water advise but his advise on mechanical and
land stuff rings true and suggests he has gotten his hands dirty more
than most. And if he manages, and influences the management of . . .
as much land as I think he does, a few decisions on his part will have
much greater impact on our environment than most of the rest of us
will ever have. Not to be too clinical but, these people are or should
be the natural allies of conservation minded fishers and hunters, and
that might require focusing on areas of mutual interest and not on
rhetorical ideological differences.

Dave

All of which looks real pretty......but that's the way it is with
conjecture. The diminutive member has made a point of concealing as
much of himself as possible (not hard to understand) while daily
revealing more than he has ever intended to in a lifetime.

Meanwhile, others tend to see what they are conditioned to
see.....unless they are very careful and observant and thoughtful.
And lucky.

giles.

OT GOP Purge
 

DaveS wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Point is, working for yourself is a great gig if you can get it
and I don't know anyone who wouldn't rather manage the family
fortune full-time rather than having to hold down a job.

Well OK.
...
2. Separate and apart from how someones "fortune" was made, it is not
just "anyone" thats keeps a large ag/land based "fortune" together
over several generations.

3. "Working for yourself" successfully by definition is a hard "gig"
and one just doesn't "get it," a person creates it, one doesn't just
"hold" it down. Not for long anyway. ...

That's all well and good but I think there's a difference between
someone who starts out with a ****load of student loans and an old
Chevy versus someone who starts out with a preordained career path
leading to the top of an already successful agribusiness enterprise.

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work.

Dave

OT GOP Purge
 

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:21:48 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:

On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work.

Dave


Well, I've never slept in a ditch while hitchhiking...or for any other reason.
And FWIW, I'm much more than a handsome stud on a tractor - geez, don't hate me
because I'm beautiful...

HTH,
R

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 16, 7:50*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:21:48 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work.

Dave

Well, I've never slept in a ditch while hitchhiking...or for any other reason.
And FWIW, I'm much more than a handsome stud on a tractor - geez, don't hate me
because I'm beautiful...

HTH,
R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Idiot

Dave

OT GOP Purge
 

"DaveS" wrote in message
...
1. I am not wealthy. I am not a farmer; I am a farm-groupie.

does this entail hanging around farmers and trying to get their attentions?


Sustaining and growing
the productivity and income flows from an ag or forest based "family
fortune" is not a walk in the park. Without some love for the land,
respect for the natural processes and people who make it happen, and a
willingness to work, a family cannot hold onto these kinds of assets
over the generations.


I think you're somewhat overdramatizing here, at least in my experience.
No argument with the rest of your premise, however.
Tom

OT GOP Purge
 

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 10:58:22 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:

On Apr 16, 7:50*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:21:48 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work.

Dave

Well, I've never slept in a ditch while hitchhiking...or for any other reason.
And FWIW, I'm much more than a handsome stud on a tractor - geez, don't hate me
because I'm beautiful...

HTH,
R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Idiot

Goat-plagiarist.

HTH,
R

Dave

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 16, 9:50*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:21:48 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work.

Dave

Well, I've never slept in a ditch while hitchhiking...or for any other reason.
And FWIW, I'm much more than a handsome stud on a tractor - geez, don't hate me
because I'm beautiful...

HTH,
R

Moron.

g.

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 18, 9:57*am, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 10:58:22 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 7:50*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:21:48 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work..

Dave

Well, I've never slept in a ditch while hitchhiking...or for any other reason.
And FWIW, I'm much more than a handsome stud on a tractor - geez, don't hate me
because I'm beautiful...

HTH,
R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Idiot

Goat-plagiarist.

HTH,
R


Imbecile.

g.

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 18, 9:11*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"DaveS" wrote in message

...

1. I am not wealthy. I am not a farmer; I am a farm-groupie.

does this entail hanging around farmers and trying to get their attentions?

Sustaining and growing

the productivity and income flows from an ag or forest based "family
fortune" is not a walk in the park. Without some love for the land,
respect for the natural processes and people who make it happen, and a
willingness to work, a family cannot hold onto these kinds of assets

over the generations.

I think you're somewhat overdramatizing here, at least in my experience.

Well, yeah.....but there's also generalizing, romanticizing,
aggrandizing, self-congratulating.

No argument with the rest of your premise, however.

Yep. That's all true....sometimes.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tom

giles.
who has known some farmers....and found them to be generally much like
folks.

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 18, 7:11*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"DaveS" wrote in message

...

1. I am not wealthy. I am not a farmer; I am a farm-groupie.

does this entail hanging around farmers and trying to get their attentions?

Sustaining and growing

the productivity and income flows from an ag or forest based "family
fortune" is not a walk in the park. Without some love for the land,
respect for the natural processes and people who make it happen, and a
willingness to work, a family cannot hold onto these kinds of assets

over the generations.

I think you're somewhat over-dramatizing here, at least in my experience.
No argument with the rest of your premise, however.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tom

No. But it means things like wasting time reading thru a few hundred
used tractor ads. Thinking you need to know how to change the blades
on a swather. Feeding if someone is coming back late. Its about having
a laugh at yourself and still doing stuff you want to do during the
only life each of us are given. Its Geezer Power.

Which part of that land loving- understanding- work stuff, that I
stated is in YHO most over dramatized? What's your opinion on the same
subject?

Dave
This is NOT a test.
This is NOT a test
This is NOT a test

OT GOP Purge
 

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:18:12 -0700 (PDT), Giles wrote:

On Apr 18, 9:57*am, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 10:58:22 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 7:50*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:21:48 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work.

Dave

Well, I've never slept in a ditch while hitchhiking...or for any other reason.
And FWIW, I'm much more than a handsome stud on a tractor - geez, don't hate me
because I'm beautiful...

HTH,
R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Idiot

Goat-plagiarist.

HTH,
R


Imbecile.

g.

Unimaginative.

R

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 18, 7:57*am, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 10:58:22 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 7:50*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:21:48 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work..

Dave

Well, I've never slept in a ditch while hitchhiking...or for any other reason.
And FWIW, I'm much more than a handsome stud on a tractor - geez, don't hate me
because I'm beautiful...

HTH,
R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Idiot

Goat-plagiarist.

HTH,
R





Dave- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Rote non-learner.

Dave

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 18, 6:28*pm, Giles wrote:
On Apr 18, 9:11*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote:





"DaveS" wrote in message

...

1. I am not wealthy. I am not a farmer; I am a farm-groupie.

does this entail hanging around farmers and trying to get their attentions?

Sustaining and growing

the productivity and income flows from an ag or forest based "family
fortune" is not a walk in the park. Without some love for the land,
respect for the natural processes and people who make it happen, and a
willingness to work, a family cannot hold onto these kinds of assets

over the generations.

I think you're somewhat overdramatizing here, at least in my experience..

Well, yeah.....but there's also generalizing, romanticizing,
aggrandizing, self-congratulating.

No argument with the rest of your premise, however.

Yep. *That's all true....sometimes.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tom

giles.
who has known some farmers....and found them to be generally much like
folks.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not so sure. I think awareness of the natural world is pretty low
in much of the USA pop. Like that old First Nations song said, "
Tomorrow the Sun could rise in the West and many would not notice." Or
something like that. Here, even in the PNW folk disconnect - and for
months a year go to work in the dark and come home in the dark. In the
consulting biz, especially on-the-road, I was often still working at
10pm, What a waste. Spring was a blink, a minute later it was October
time for a crammed "summer" break. Weather had almost no impact except
for the occasional flight delay, "Oh, is it snowing?" Neat. You going
to eat those peanuts?" (Another 4 hours in the air, late taxi, catch
the last boat, home by when?)

From what I can see farmers could not do what they do without a high
sensitivity to the weather, at a level of detail that normal "folk"
just do not require. Big diffs I think.

Dave
Who had a 12 year old girl farm kid explain to me that the reason they
were baling at 2am nite before was because the moisture level of those
little leaves on the cut alfalfa was just right so they would not
flake off and therefore reduce the protein assay. Too moist or a
little rain before the bales get picked up (700 lb per) and they can
combust. So I think farm kids may be tons different too. Did you get
my mailing address?

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 18, 11:27*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:18:12 -0700 (PDT), Giles wrote:
On Apr 18, 9:57*am, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 10:58:22 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 7:50*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:21:48 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work.

Dave

Well, I've never slept in a ditch while hitchhiking...or for any other reason.
And FWIW, I'm much more than a handsome stud on a tractor - geez, don't hate me
because I'm beautiful...

HTH,
R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Idiot

Goat-plagiarist.

HTH,
R

Imbecile.
g.

Unimaginative.

R

Moron.

g.

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 18, 9:03*pm, DaveS wrote:
On Apr 18, 7:11*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote:


I think you're somewhat over-dramatizing here, at least in my experience.
No argument with the rest of your premise, however.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tom

No. But it means things like wasting time reading thru a few hundred
used tractor ads. Thinking you need to know how to change the blades
on a swather. Feeding if someone is coming back late. Its about having
a laugh at yourself and still doing stuff you want to do during the
only life each of us are given. Its Geezer Power.

Sounds like the sort of stuff folks do.

Which part of that land loving- understanding- work stuff, that I
stated is in YHO most over dramatized?

I'll give that a shot.

Land loving: yeah, I'd love to have a couple of thousand acres valued
at a few thousand dollars per. Until the developers move in and it
goes at a couple of hundred thousand per.

Understanding: no group in the history of the planet has destroyed
more land than farmers.....not even grazers. Of course, that's
ancient history, right? Uh uh. Going on to this day. Well, yeah, in
biafrastan or some such godforsaken ********, right? You should'a
been here in southeast Curdistan two weeks ago after a few
unseasonably warm days with heavy winds out of the south. Millions of
tons of topsoil put on a rather spectacular show as it flew by. And
this isn't a particularly benighted or dry part of this enlightened
country.

Work: been there. Good stuff if it's something you like. Otherwise
it kinda sucks large.

What's your opinion on the same
subject?

I think life as we know it would end pretty quickly without the guys
who do oil changes.

Dave
This is NOT a test.

It's the real thing.....in the back of your mind....what you're hoping
to find.....

This is NOT a test

Nevertheless, how are we doing?

This is NOT a test

Have you noticed that the people with whom you share a vocation, an
avocation, and/or genes tend to be preternaturally noble?

Coincidence is the great fundamental organizing principle of the
universe.....ainna?

giles

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 19, 6:41*pm, Giles wrote:
(Snipped)

Interesting numbers. But $500 per acre for grazing land in any
reasonable quantities is a better reference point. "Couple of hundred"
K per? Hummmm? Well maybe for fully serviced residential lot down the
street if your licence plate says California. You think that
population growth, immigration and low food prices might have
something to do with the conversion of farm to residential land?

Where was that Wisconsin topsoil going in such a hurry? Maybe these
fellas need to invest in "no-till" or reject the idea that corn/corn/
corn is a 3 year rotation?

Life is the drama. IMHO TV style courage wrapped in violence and sport
tends to jade the senses to the realities of the physical and mortal
world. For reasons I do not fully understand, I am drawn to seeing
the expressions of nobility in the everyday choices and actions of
many of the people I encounter, as well as the crimes of ignorance,
selfishness, and intent of others I encounter. Like everybody I mostly
only "know" what I can see, but within that frame I do prefer people
whose daily lives are infused by those noble purposes which I value;
love and respect of the land, a combo of hard physical and
intellectual work, and a love for the USA, family and the American
people. In my realities (and probably fantasies) I have found these
purposes more in evidence in ag country.

As to family and that word "preternaturally;" I don't ascribe the
courage of dead Snedekers and others to myself. But I do use their
choices as a standard to fight my own weaknesses.

There is a video of two of my heroes on YouTube called "Shepherd's
Grain Field Tour - July 2009"
They have been recognized by the NDRC for their work on the. They are
wheat farmers on the Palouse.

Dave

OT GOP Purge
 

These are the Wheat farmers of the Shepard's grain co-op. IMHO they
and some others are the future.
http://www.shepherdsgrain.com/growers/growers.php

And this kind of farming is also the future. Back to the future? These
guys are a few farms up river from me.

Vhttp://www.monteilletcheese.com/index.htm

Ive met lots of people in ag country who care inordinately and
passionately about doing the right stuff and making wholesome food.

Dave

OT GOP Purge
 

"DaveS" wrote in message
...
Which part of that land loving- understanding- work stuff, that I
stated is in YHO most over dramatized? What's your opinion on the same
subject?


where I felt you over-dramatized was all these lofty virtues which you state
are necessary to keep a large amount of agricultural land from generation to
generation.
I think Wolfie sort of stated it well, it's just plain old work,
hardly requiring some sort of special values. I know folks who have had
agricultural land in their families that dates back to the 1600's. To keep
it, they just are not spendthrift, able to find decent folks to work the
land(the owner need not work the land himself, you know), and maintain a
rudimentary knowledge of the land, the crops, the basic economics involved.
No heroics, just conservative maintenence of an investment. Happens all the
time.


This is NOT a test.
This is NOT a test
This is NOT a test

Whew, I was SO concerned it might be........

Tom

OT GOP Purge
 

Tom Littleton wrote:
"DaveS" wrote:
Which part of that land loving- understanding- work stuff, that I
stated is in YHO most over dramatized? What's your opinion on the same
subject?

where I felt you over-dramatized was all these lofty virtues which you state
are necessary to keep a large amount of agricultural land from generation to
generation.

Much of the *very fertile* ag land here in corn country is leased
out to big agribusiness, Frito-Lay, Archer Daniels Midland etc.
The "owners" don't necessarily know **** from shinola about farming,
the environment, conservation or a damn thing other than Daddy left
them sitting on a gold mine. And that's all their kids will know too.

I think Dave has got a "gentleman farmer the renaissance man" fantasy
going on. It must be pretty to think so.

--
Ken Fortenberry

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 20, 4:33*pm, DaveS wrote:
On Apr 19, 6:41*pm, Giles wrote:
(Snipped)

Interesting numbers.

Aren't they though?

But $500 per acre for grazing land in any
reasonable quantities is a better reference point.

Well, a better reference point for western grazing land in any
reasonable quantities, I suppose. We ain't got much of that around
here.

"Couple of hundred"
K per? Hummmm? Well maybe for fully serviced residential lot down the
street if your licence plate says California.

Actually, it says "Illinois." You've heard of it, maybe. "Chicago"
ring any bells? They've been filtering up over the border for decades
into places like Pleasant Prairie.....Hummers and obscene credit
ratings.

You think that
population growth, immigration and low food prices might have
something to do with the conversion of farm to residential land?

You think that discerning the topic under discussion and addressing it
migh have something to do with a fair and useful exchange of ideas?

Where was that Wisconsin topsoil going in such a hurry?

To the north and east. Around here, that means mostly into Lake
Michigan, and points beyond.

Maybe these
fellas need to invest in "no-till" or reject the idea that corn/corn/
corn is a 3 year rotation?

So, maybe they're not so brilliant and noble after all?

Life is the drama.

The ancient Greeks saw a funny side to it as well. They weren't half
dumb.

IMHO TV style courage wrapped in violence and sport
tends to jade the senses to the realities of the physical and mortal
world.

Hm.....

I double dog dare anybody to parse that mess.....with a context of one
sort or another in mind. Personally, I ain't gonna touch it.

For reasons I do not fully understand, I am drawn to seeing
the expressions of nobility in the everyday choices and actions of
many of the people I encounter,

It's easy enough to understand. If you rub up against stuff, it rubs
off on you.

as well as the crimes of ignorance,
selfishness, and intent of others I encounter.

Oddly, there don't seem to be many (well, ANY, actually) of those
among those with whom you share a vocation, an avocation, and/or
genes.

Like everybody I mostly
only "know" what I can see,

The Earth is flat (been there, seen it), UFOs, and quarters hide in
children's ears.....used to be silver dollars, and then half
dollars.....children's ears are obviously shrinking in these effete
latter days.

but within that frame I do prefer people
whose daily lives are infused by those noble purposes which I value;
love and respect of the land,

Then you should declare war on farmers, pastoralists, loggers, miners,
"developers", capitalists, industrialists, manufacturers,
distributors, and consumers (in descending order) and their
spawn.....hey, nits breed lice, ainna?

a combo of hard physical [work]

Been there. Beautiful if you love it.....wretched otherwise.

and intellectual work,

Well, there goes the farmers, pastoralists, loggers, miners,
"developers", capitalists, industrialists, manufacturers,
distributors, and consumers.

and a love for the USA,

yawn.

family

Some of those are good enough. I've seen 'em.

and the American people.

You mean the winos, pimps, whores, thieves, liars, murderers,
philanderers, thugs, muggers, child molesters, crackheads, meth
freaks, cheaters, liars, fornicators.....those American people?.....or
did you have some others in mind?

In my realities (and probably fantasies) I have found these
purposes more in evidence in ag country.

So have I.....when in ag country. On the other hand, when in other
climes I have found them more in evidence there. Thus lending
credence to the theory that you don't find what you are looking for in
places where you aren't looking. Weird, huh?

As to family and that word "preternaturally;" I don't ascribe the
courage of dead Snedekers and others to myself. But I do use their
choices as a standard to fight my own weaknesses.

Wouldn't it be easier to just give up on weaknesses altogether?

There is a video of two of my heroes on YouTube called "Shepherd's
Grain Field Tour - July 2009"
They have been recognized by the NDRC for their work on the. They are
wheat farmers on the Palouse.

Dave

Their work on the.....the.....the.....?

Good god, man!

giles.

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 20, 5:35*pm, DaveS wrote:
These are the Wheat farmers of the Shepard's grain co-op. IMHO they
and some others are the future.http://www.shepherdsgrain.com/growers/growers.php

And this kind of farming is also the future. Back to the future? These
guys are a few farms up river from me.

Vhttp://www.monteilletcheese.com/index.htm

Ive met lots of people in ag country who care inordinately and
passionately about doing the right stuff and making wholesome food.

Dave

And I've met lots of people in non-ag country who ditto. And lots of
people in ag country who don't. And lots of people in in ag country
who ditto. And lots of people in non-ag country who don't.

So?

giles

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 20, 7:25*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
Tom Littleton wrote:
"DaveS" wrote:
Which part of that land loving- understanding- work stuff, that I
stated is in YHO most over dramatized? What's your opinion on the same
subject?

where I felt you over-dramatized was all these lofty virtues which you state
are necessary to keep a large amount of agricultural land from generation to
generation.

Much of the *very fertile* ag land here in corn country is leased
out to big agribusiness, Frito-Lay, Archer Daniels Midland etc.
The "owners" don't necessarily know **** from shinola about farming,
the environment, conservation or a damn thing other than Daddy left
them sitting on a gold mine. And that's all their kids will know too.

I think Dave has got a "gentleman farmer the renaissance man" fantasy
going on. It must be pretty to think so.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Yeah, and a lot of the land is still in the hands of the local farmer
(around me at least, though it may be different in the cosmopolitan
areas Urbana). They ain't gentlemen farmers either. Fighting
everything from purple loostrife to the county ag board. Just plane
good workin' folks.
Frank Reid

OT GOP Purge
 

Jebus man, if its half as bad back there as you say it is, there is
still that thing that Horace Greeley said.

Did you get my snailmail address per the seeds via Email?

Dave

OT GOP Purge
 

On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
Tom Littleton wrote:
"DaveS" wrote:
Which part of that land loving- understanding- work stuff, that I
stated is in YHO most over dramatized? What's your opinion on the same
subject?

where I felt you over-dramatized was all these lofty virtues which you state
are necessary to keep a large amount of agricultural land from generation to
generation.

Much of the *very fertile* ag land here in corn country is leased
out to big agribusiness, Frito-Lay, Archer Daniels Midland etc.
The "owners" don't necessarily know **** from shinola about farming,
the environment, conservation or a damn thing other than Daddy left
them sitting on a gold mine. And that's all their kids will know too.

I think Dave has got a "gentleman farmer the renaissance man" fantasy
going on. It must be pretty to think so.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Well, (to borrow the dear and departed Chris Farley line,) if
"gentleman farmer the renaissance man" includes staying . . . "in a
van down by the river," then I am guilty as charged. I prefer the
title "farm groupie, absentee owner" but you can call me Colonel.

Colonel Dave of the Jungle

OT GOP Purge
 

On 2010-04-21 04:53:17 -0400, DaveS said:

Colonel Dave of the Jungle

That's the spirit!

Dave, the Pirate