Fishing - waders rant

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Mu Young Lee wrote:
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Scott Seidman wrote:

Apples to Apples, Bill. Sure, you get what you pay for, but not everyone
can get the top of the line Simms. How do the Freestones compare to the
rest of the $150 market?

I purchased the Simms lightweights for $180 in 2003. Considering the
quality, I'd say it was actually rather inexpensive compared to my
previous waders ($130 for Orvis Clearwaters in 2000, and $160 for a pair
of Cabela's breathables back in the 1998).

A pair of waders is merely a necessary tool. I've never heard gear
whores bragging about how many pairs of waders they have. :-) I suppose
there's always a first time to look forward to. (I have two pair -- both
Simms -- one pair reconditioned at the factory, which acts as my backup
and loaner pair.)

My philosophy about buying tools is that I don't compromise on quality.
I may not buy the tool with all the fancy bells and whistles, but I
won't ever buy second best if I can help it. It's a false economy.

Nowadays, when it might cost $40 in gas, one way, to get to your fishing
destination, a pair of Simms waders seems like a bargain.

Apropos of waders, about a week ago in Jerry's Country Store in Lower
Stanley I saw a young steelhead fisherman wearing a brand new pair of
Simms waders and, over top of them, a pair of cheap rubber hip boots.
He'd forgotten to bring his wading boots. The guy was pretty cool
because he realized how ridiculous he looked. :-)

"Kevin Vang" wrote in message
...

I've done that before. Fortunately there were no witnesses.

Fishing last year, a guy started stalking me on the river. Then I waded a
little deeper and laughed as he followed me again and the water went over
the top of his knee high rubber boots.

"riverman" wrote in message
...

Agreed. I got a pair of breathables a few years back that were a bit snug
in
the belly because I needed them postehaste, they were half-price, and they
were the only thing in the shop that was close to my size. I was never
truly
comfortable wearing them, as I was always concerned about ripping them out
if I ever went down on a knee midstream. Even lacing up my boots was a bit
on the edge. The silver lining was that I got robbed in South Africa, and
with my insurance money I bought (with the assistance of Frank Reid) a
very
comfortable pair of breathables that fit a tiny bit large, but with the
wide
belt Frank chose for me, I can 'bunch up' the excess fabric and make them
right. Its like the difference between a pair of shoes that are a
half-size
too small, and a pair of sandals that are just perfect.

And then there's always the problem of boot foot waders. You buy a pair of
waders to fit your feet, and they aren't long enough in the inseam, or too
tight in the waste. Or vice versa.

But then it also happens with stocking foot waders too. Buy them for the
waste size and the inseam is too short.

Why can't they make waders that fit the majority of those who wear them?
Seems like they got a few special order sizes when they were an upstart
company, and then just stuck to those few sizes.

I recently made a six hour drive to fish and took waders and hippers.
Only needed the hippers and went to put them on. Noted I had brought,
literally, two left feet! Managed to get them on and in the water
without anyone noticing (at least I don't think so).
Sully
Kevin Vang wrote:
In article et,
says...

Apropos of waders, about a week ago in Jerry's Country Store in Lower
Stanley I saw a young steelhead fisherman wearing a brand new pair of
Simms waders and, over top of them, a pair of cheap rubber hip boots.
He'd forgotten to bring his wading boots. The guy was pretty cool
because he realized how ridiculous he looked. :-)

I've done that before. Fortunately there were no witnesses.

Kevin

"Hooked" wrote in message
...
"riverman" wrote in message
...

Agreed. I got a pair of breathables a few years back that were a bit
snug
in
the belly because I needed them postehaste, they were half-price, and
they
were the only thing in the shop that was close to my size. I was never
truly
comfortable wearing them, as I was always concerned about ripping them
out
if I ever went down on a knee midstream. Even lacing up my boots was a
bit
on the edge. The silver lining was that I got robbed in South Africa,
and
with my insurance money I bought (with the assistance of Frank Reid) a
very
comfortable pair of breathables that fit a tiny bit large, but with the
wide
belt Frank chose for me, I can 'bunch up' the excess fabric and make
them
right. Its like the difference between a pair of shoes that are a
half-size
too small, and a pair of sandals that are just perfect.

And then there's always the problem of boot foot waders. You buy a pair of
waders to fit your feet, and they aren't long enough in the inseam, or too
tight in the waste. Or vice versa.

But then it also happens with stocking foot waders too. Buy them for the
waste size and the inseam is too short.

Why can't they make waders that fit the majority of those who wear them?
Seems like they got a few special order sizes when they were an upstart
company, and then just stuck to those few sizes.

I just think the Koreans, do not realise how tall we are. I wear size 14
shoes and the Red Ball boot foot waders were the only ones that were long
enough in the inseam when I used boot foots for duck hunting. The Korean
waders were always about 6" short in the crotch. I think my latest
neoprenes are Hodgeman and they are fine.
Bill

nice guy till he couldn't make a buck off you....
your learning fast....but not fast enough..
allen
"Sr." wrote in message
...
Wow, what a tear jerking tale......Sounds like ya have like 2 options: 1.
go
back and give the fella the $270.00, B. go elsewhere and buy a pair of
waders, or A.-wade without waders... Cabela's has an excellent wader for
under $100.00... A small peace of advice here from an x-fatguy, loose
some
weight!!!
Sr.

"Steve Sullivan" wrote in message
...
I am so unbelievably depressed and angry at the same time. I feel so
incredibly screwed. I have to get this off my chest.

I do most of my shopping at a local fly shop that will remain
annonymous. The owner is the NICEST guy, who has treated me *INCREDIBLY*
well (just want to make that clear).

He traded some quality waders for work I did for him (again, I praise
him for this). The waders were medium king sized (I am a big guy). The
associate was concerned that they were tight, and said he was worried
they might bust a seem in the stomach. The owner (this is very
important) said special sized waders would be $100 more and RECOMMENDED
that I get the medium kings, which is what I did. THE OWNER OF THE SHOP
RECOMMENDED THAT I GET THE WADERS. These were waders that he had in the
shop for some time that a customer ordered but never came in to buy.

About 3 months later I started to get leaks in them, and the material in
the bottom of the feet started wearing out. All the leaks were knee
level or bellow.

I called the manufacturer and they agreed that I could return the waders
to the store, and that instead of medium kings I needed specially made
waders. They told me to email them all the pertinent info, they would
make the waders and charge me $40.

They called the fly shop owner, who told them I insisted on getting the
waders even tho they told me not to. This was untrue. The associate most
definitely did say that the waders could tear at the stomach, but the
owner said that I should get them.

Thus, the manufacturer VOIDED my warranty, and if I want the specially
made waders I have to pay $270. The fly shop said they will try to
repair the leaks, but I am still without a WARRANTY plus without the
brand new specially sized waders for $40.

The owner IS a really nice guy, but I got screwed so incredibly hard.

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...

I just think the Koreans, do not realise how tall we are. I wear size 14
shoes and the Red Ball boot foot waders were the only ones that were long
enough in the inseam when I used boot foots for duck hunting. The Korean
waders were always about 6" short in the crotch. I think my latest
neoprenes are Hodgeman and they are fine.

I have 2 pair of Hodgeman. One is a bootfoot neoprene pair, that the boots
are loose fitting, everything else is tight, but the length is right. The
other pair are stockingfoot breathables. The feet are a bit big, the waste
and inseam are fine, but they're a bit big around the chest.

Ever thumb trough a catalog and check out the sizes they give? Who really
fits those sizes? Certainly not me, and I bet a million other guys.

I guess I could spend more for a better fitting pair (spelled tailored) but
I for one can't afford that.

Hooked wrote:

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...

I just think the Koreans, do not realise how tall we are. I wear size 14
shoes and the Red Ball boot foot waders were the only ones that were long
enough in the inseam when I used boot foots for duck hunting. The Korean
waders were always about 6" short in the crotch. I think my latest
neoprenes are Hodgeman and they are fine.

I have 2 pair of Hodgeman. One is a bootfoot neoprene pair, that the boots
are loose fitting, everything else is tight, but the length is right. The
other pair are stockingfoot breathables. The feet are a bit big, the waste
and inseam are fine, but they're a bit big around the chest.

So you're a skinny, concave-chested guy with little feet. Deal with it. :-)

Ever thumb trough a catalog and check out the sizes they give? Who really
fits those sizes? Certainly not me, and I bet a million other guys.

Off-the-shelf waders and pants fit me just fine.

BTW, it's "waist," not "waste."

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"rw" wrote in message
ink.net...

So you're a skinny, concave-chested guy with little feet. Deal with it.
:-)

If I'm skinny, why is everyone telling me I should go on a diet?

Concave chested? No. And I don't have a big chest (like a woman) either.

Little feet? Average, size 9.

Off-the-shelf waders and pants fit me just fine.

Then you are one of the few who fit those waders. Are you Korean?

BTW, it's "waist," not "waste."

Blame it on Microsoft Spell Checker.

so stop with bull **** with the waders... will someone get a life and talk
about a issue the really means something !!

"Hooked" wrote in message
...
"rw" wrote in message
ink.net...

So you're a skinny, concave-chested guy with little feet. Deal with it.
:-)

If I'm skinny, why is everyone telling me I should go on a diet?

Concave chested? No. And I don't have a big chest (like a woman) either.

Little feet? Average, size 9.

Off-the-shelf waders and pants fit me just fine.

Then you are one of the few who fit those waders. Are you Korean?

BTW, it's "waist," not "waste."

Blame it on Microsoft Spell Checker.

if you guys want to have a slow motion chat room go to AOL !
"Hooked" wrote in message
...
"rw" wrote in message
ink.net...

So you're a skinny, concave-chested guy with little feet. Deal with it.
:-)

If I'm skinny, why is everyone telling me I should go on a diet?

Concave chested? No. And I don't have a big chest (like a woman) either.

Little feet? Average, size 9.

Off-the-shelf waders and pants fit me just fine.

Then you are one of the few who fit those waders. Are you Korean?

BTW, it's "waist," not "waste."

Blame it on Microsoft Spell Checker.

Allen top-posted the following:

so stop with bull **** with the waders... will someone get a life and talk
about a issue the really means something !!

Let's talk about how rude, crude and stupid it is to top-post in
Usenet newsgroups where top-posting isn't the convention.

It's times like this when I wish our dear, sweet wayno were still
the scourge of the newbies and not some semi-retired milquetoast.

Ah, those were the days. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

so get over it... 37 replies over a hole in waders give me a break..you must
be a dam liberal democrat to argue behind a news group...go ____your self..
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
om...
Allen top-posted the following:

so stop with bull **** with the waders... will someone get a life and
talk
about a issue the really means something !!

Let's talk about how rude, crude and stupid it is to top-post in
Usenet newsgroups where top-posting isn't the convention.

It's times like this when I wish our dear, sweet wayno were still
the scourge of the newbies and not some semi-retired milquetoast.

Ah, those were the days. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Allen" wrote in message
...

if you guys want to have a slow motion chat room go to AOL !

Amen! So, what would you like to talk about, Allen?

Wolfgang

PS I'm not a newbe, I have been on the computer on line since 1975... I
paid $12.00 a hour to be on CompuServe at 1200 baud... in 1976 and we used
dos to post messages.... so go back and change your dirty diaper and let
those who been there and done that before you knew what a computer was... do
it the right way not the "yuppie" way.... News groups are for news not chat
rooms...do you get it ....go back to your convention with someone who
cares....

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
om...
Allen top-posted the following:

so stop with bull **** with the waders... will someone get a life and
talk
about a issue the really means something !!

Let's talk about how rude, crude and stupid it is to top-post in
Usenet newsgroups where top-posting isn't the convention.

It's times like this when I wish our dear, sweet wayno were still
the scourge of the newbies and not some semi-retired milquetoast.

Ah, those were the days. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

Allen top-posted the following testimonial:

PS I'm not a newbe, I have been on the computer on line since 1975...

You are obviously a nitwit and a liar, but all that aside, you DO
actually fly fish, right ? I mean that's why you're here, right ?

So post something about fly fishing and kwitcherbitchin.

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Allen" wrote in message
...
PS I'm not a newbe, I have been on the computer on line since 1975... I
paid $12.00 a hour to be on CompuServe at 1200 baud... in 1976 and we
used
dos to post messages.... so go back and change your dirty diaper and let
those who been there and done that before you knew what a computer was...
do
it the right way not the "yuppie" way.... News groups are for news not
chat
rooms...do you get it ....go back to your convention with someone who
cares....

OH, BS. I am older and been at this crap longer than you, and the old
newsgroups had jokes, and I even have a recipe we still use that was printed
out on a dot matrix printer. And I used UNIX on PDP's as that was the
original way. Way before DOS. Things change and I guess you still use DOS
and 1200 BAUD lines? Get a modern life, loser! Where is your apropos
threads?

and... see below...

Calif Bill wrote:

"Allen" wrote in message
...

PS I'm not a newbe, I have been on the computer on line since 1975... I
paid $12.00 a hour to be on CompuServe at 1200 baud... in 1976 and we

used

dos to post messages.... so go back and change your dirty diaper and let
those who been there and done that before you knew what a computer was...

do

it the right way not the "yuppie" way.... News groups are for news not

chat

rooms...do you get it ....go back to your convention with someone who
cares....

OH, BS. I am older and been at this crap longer than you, and the old
newsgroups had jokes, and I even have a recipe we still use that was printed
out on a dot matrix printer. And I used UNIX on PDP's as that was the
original way. Way before DOS. Things change and I guess you still use DOS
and 1200 BAUD lines? Get a modern life, loser! Where is your apropos
threads?

oh yeah, well, i remember when we used to handwrite our news jokes and
send them by mail...without zip codes! even had to lick the stamps!!

do either of you bitchin old farts fish? or are you just computer nerds?

jeff (waitin for laplac to give us his pony express memories)

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:39:02 -0500, "Allen"
wrote:

so get over it... 37 replies over a hole in waders give me a break..you must
be a dam liberal democrat to argue behind a news group...go ____your self..

No ****. A real man would have grabbed a few of his guns and gone back
to the shop to force a regime change.
--
Charlie...

Hello Bill just a quick question about waders I know you like Simms, but do
you have a prfessional opinion on other brands , Cabellas, Hodgman etc. Those
in the upper price range of Breathables. I,m not interested in Neoprenes,
Thanks in advance for your reply

Charlie Choc wrote:

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:39:02 -0500, "Allen" wrote:

so get over it... 37 replies over a hole in waders give me a break..you must
be a dam liberal democrat to argue behind a news group...go ____your self..

No ****. A real man would have grabbed a few of his guns and gone back
to the shop to force a regime change.

For those of you from Idaho, he means, "...would have grabbed a few of
his
gones and gun back to the shop..."

JR

Apparently Sierra Stream and mountain AKA TIE FAST (is sending a email
behind my back. It is quoted with a reply by me. You will see why
they did it behind my back

Since April, I have been constantly harrassed by Joe Gambucci (aka
slofly), and someone in reno who goes by the nick flytyer in reno plus
many of their friends at www.ncffb.org. Apparently it all starts from
this post and the chronology of posts that went along with it,
evidenced in the tree of posts that you can view at
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...e_frm/thread/=
868f7ccfb50e931a/c994107269ee3b03?tvc=3D1&q=3Dwaders+rant&_done=3D% 2Fgroups=
%3Fq%3Dwaders+rant%26qt_s%3DSearch+Groups%26&_done Title=3DBack+to+Search&sc=
rollSave=3D&&d#c994107269ee3b03

Most of what the letter says is a outright lie. =C2=A0To see the
chronology, from when BEFORE Ron even saw the waders but had the
warranty voided, see =C2=A0
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...rowse_frm/thre
ad/868f7ccfb50e931a/c994107269ee3b03?tvc=3D1&q=3Dwaders+rant&_done=3D% 2Fgro=
ups%3Fq%3Dwaders+rant%26qt_s%3DSearch+Groups%26&_d oneTitle=3DBack+to+Search=
&scrollSave=3D&&d#c994107269ee3b03

=C2=A0
This first post was before sierra stream and mountain EVEN SAW THE
WADERS!! =C2=A0Sierra stream and mountain had my waders warrantee voided
before they even saw the waders. Someone forwarded me a email from Ron
where he admits he did this because he knew it would turn out to be
true (only every other flyfishing store in Chico disagreed, nick at
chico fly shop and will at fish first)=C2=A0When I took the waders to them,
they accused me of wearing the waders without wading boots?=EF=BF=BC =C2=A0=
I have
wading boots thank you, the ones I bought from them. =C2=A0Can you imagine
fishing in just neoprenes on rocks? =C2=A0 =C2=A0After they accused me of t=
his,
I took the waders to the other fly shop in town, the very respected
fish first. =C2=A0I showed the waders to will turek, the manager
). =C2=A0He said that it was simply a matter of wear and
tear, I fish alot. =C2=A0He said that the neoprene on the booties was the
thin cheap neoprene, not the hypalon (sp??) that higher quality waders
use. =C2=A0He also said that they were single stitched. =C2=A0I also took t=
he
waders to Chico Fly Shop, and showed them to Nick (dont know his last
name). =C2=A0I am preety sure his exact words were "you got a bum deal".
=C2=A0
"Response to Waders rant by Steve Sullivan =C2=A0
My name is Ron Lewis I am owner of TIE-FAST vest tools and Sierra
Stream & Mountain, a small fly shop located in Chico California. Over
the past few weeks there have been postings to your ncffb bulletin
board by Steve Sullivan concerning my shop and business. I would like
you to hear my side of this story. =C2=A0
First of all I am writing to your e-mail address personally verses
posting on the bulletin board. Your ncffb bulletin board should be a
fun and informative site for the sharing of information. =C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
No, you wanted to email lies behind my back so I couldnt respond
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Not for ranting and complaining about other people. =C2=A0
Steve Sullivan came into my fly shop and I befriended him. He is very
much a novice, beginner fisherman but I liked his enthusiasm for the
sport of fly-fishing, so I tried to help him with his equipment.
Steve began purchasing products from me. The first product was a fly
reel. Which he brought back to me broken within a week, I replaced
it. I handed him a new one with no questions. He then brought the
second reel back one week later and said it had been broken also. We
repaired it. He then purchased a fly fishing rod. Within a week he
brought that back into the shop after breaking it. I told him to send
it back to the mfg. along with $25.00 to get it replaced or repaired.
The mfg did not charge him for replacement do to the fact that he got
it at my shop. He then purchased another rod from me. In fact, his
parents purchased it for him. He brought that back to me broken also.
So we sent it back to the mfg. and it was repaired for an economical
price. =C2=A0
Next he wanted a pair of breathable waders. After he made the decision
of which pair of waders he wanted he took his selection home. Within
a couple of weeks he spoke with me about them "leaking", so I told
him to talk to the mfg. about the problem. After that discussion, he
brought the waders into my shop to look at the "leak". =C2=A0
=C2=A0
Lie. =C2=A0You had the waders warranty voided before you even saw the
waders.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
My sales manager and I looked at the waders. They had been =C2=A0
completely abused and misused. =C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
LIe. =C2=A0Not according to every other flyshop in town.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
They have (4) holes ranging from 1" to 3 =C2=BD" in the feet of the
waders, the reinforced knee cover was torn away from the wader itself.
The built in wader belt has been torn away from the waders in
sections. They were covered with sand and completely wet with mildew
on them, very poor condition. Mind you everything listed above
occurred within a 4 month period. I told Steve that this abuse is not
a manufacture defect. That the warranty will not be honored by ADG the
mfg. In the wader warranty, policy & care package that is supplied
with every ADG wader it simply states, "Warranty does not cover
neglect, abuse, improper care and normal wear usage" The warranty does
cover "manufacture defects" My mangers and I sat down with Steve on
April 6, 2004 and he has admitted to us that most of his statements to
the ncffb bulletin board were brought on by his anger with the waders
not being warranted. =C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Lie. =C2=A0My anger was that I had an agreement with adg to send me larger
sized special fit waders for $40, and without even seeing the waders
you had the warranty voided. =C2=A0After you took a look at the waders and
said they were abused I took them to every single fly shop in town (2)
and both said that it was from wear and tear. =C2=A0Will turek of fish
first in chico told me that given how much I fish, that the waders were
single stitched, and given the thinness of the neoprenes booties (not
new double neoprene, I think its called hypalon (sp?) it was no wonder
the waders were the way they were.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
He also admits that statements made were false. =C2=A0
=C2=A0
Nothing substantial. =C2=A0For instance my first post I made it clear that
the waders were for trade in work (which is true) latter on I lapsed
and said "bought".
=C2=A0
He said that he would give an apology for his actions and his
criticism of my shop, employees and my products. To the ncffb
bulletin board. =C2=A0
=C2=A0
The biggest bold faced lie ever. =C2=A0No kidding you sent these emails
behind my back. =C2=A0Ron threatened me with lawyers, telling me how
wealthy he was. =C2=A0He complained about how he spent all day answering
calls regarding my post (and other employees, Sean, concurred) then the
next minutes acts like my post had no effect. =C2=A0With all his threats,
you know what I did? =C2=A0I thought to myself SCREW THIS, got up, and
walked to the door to leave. =C2=A0Ron Jumped up and blocked the door. =C2=
=A0
=C2=A0Physcially prevented me from leaving. =C2=A0One of the employees (sea=
n or
lincoln) said their is a new pair of waders here for you, so I sat back
down.
=C2=A0
I SAID I WOULD TELL THE BOARD THAT YOU GAVE ME A NEW PAIR OF WADERS AND
THE SITUATION WAS OVER. =C2=A0I wont go into your store and tell you you
are a bald faced liar, but I would be happy to met you at the neuman
catholic church a block from your store, put my hand on a bible and
state that all I agreed to was what I just said. =C2=A0LETS SEE YOU DO THE
SAME!! =C2=A0You would probably be struck down by god with a lightning
bolt!!
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
I replaced his waders with a brand new pair. I felt that I should do
so, not to show that I was at fault, but to let my customers know
that I do stand behind my products. =C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
LIE. =C2=A0You ignored all my posts. =C2=A0You admitted you saw all of them.
=C2=A0Sean and yourself admitted you were sick of all the calls from
customers. =C2=A0It wasnt that you stand behind your product or you wouldnt
of ignored me and waited till you got sick of all the phone calls from
people who saw the post on the internet. =C2=A0Your threats about how rich
you were and how your lawyers would take me to court? =C2=A0And you have
the gall to say the above? =C2=A0How F&***ing rich!!
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Attached are photos of the waders that Steve brought back to me and
wanted me to warranty. Please take a look at the attached photo of
Steve Sullivan's actual pair of "LEAKY" waders he felt I should
replace and you determine if this is a manufactures defect or if this
was caused by neglect, abuse, improper care. " =C2=A0
=C2=A0
Many bridges burnt by this person. Decide for yourself. =C2=A0
=C2=A0
And contact both the respected fly shops I took the waders to, chico
fly shop and fish first. =C2=A0How many people have heard of these shops?
=C2=A0How many people have heard of "sierra stream and mountain". =C2=A0Bot=
tom
line, my warranty was voided because you told adg that the waders were
abused BEFORE YOU EVEN SAW THEM!!, and that conclusion was shown FALSE
by every other flyshop in CHico.

Because of the above lies, I have been constantly harrassed for over 6
months. I have had the meanest vilest things said about me. One
person condoned Joe Gambucci vile harrassment. I sent this person a
taste of what he put me through (one email), and you should of seen the
hell that broke out. I wonder if this person thinks what Joe gambucci
did was so innocent now that they got a taste of it??

wrote in message
oups.com...

Well, Steve, you certainly have been through some hoops for this damn pair
of waders. For the life of me, though, I can't see why you keep inflicting
this story upon ROFF, other than to provide cheap entertainment.
Tom