All true enough. I had recently heard that the keel actually plays a
smaller role than previously thought, other than providing a convenient
wear-through point, but I abandoned keels long ago so I wouldn't know
much about them. I like to keep it flat when I crash into some sleeper
rock just below the surface.

But even in your solo boat, I bet if you look closely, the seat is
arranged so that, when your arms are extended forward, the PADDLE is at
the midpoint, and your butt is about 8" or a foot behind the midline.
If the seat was at the midline, you'd in effect be dragging the boat
behind you when you paddled rather than pushing it ahead. This might
not be quite so pronounced in a performance playboat, as they expect
the paddler to be doing reverse draws as much as forward strokes.

Even considering the keel, rocker or heeling, the most pronounced thing
that effects a canoes pivoting is how far out you place your blade when
take your stroke. Powerful turning strokes are those sweeping low brace
strokes, which put the blade 3 or 4 feet out from the midline and sweep
it along a radius. Unbeknownst to them, most beginners who keep their
grip hand in front of their face are executing a sweep stroke every
time they think they are paddling forwards. In my case, my grip hand is
actually farther off board than my lower hand, and the blade is beneath
the boat when I am paddling.

As for keeling...next time you are paddling, try an experiment, I know
it will suprise you. Get a good forward head of steam with the hull
flat and level, take the paddle out, then shift your weight quickly to
one side and heel it over. Watch what the boat does...its not what you
expect.

What boat do you have, BTW?

--riverman

riverman wrote:
As for keeling...next time you are paddling, try an experiment, I know
it will suprise you. Get a good forward head of steam with the hull
flat and level, take the paddle out, then shift your weight quickly to
one side and heel it over. Watch what the boat does...its not what you
expect.

I'm assuming you mean heeling, not keeling. I think I have a pretty good
feel for the relatioship between surface area and dragg. As to your point
about keels, I think we agree that they mostly are good for wearing out and
hanging up (and keeping the halves of an aluminum hull together). The same
thing is true of the semi-V hulls like the ones Mad River uses.

What boat do you have, BTW?

A Wenonah Solo Plus (http://www.wenonah.com). I would send you a better
link except their web site is all frames and they won't let you link to a
sub page. Note that the narrow hull which makes flyfishing from the center
seat easy. This is a very stable boat despite the narrowness. I have lent
this to people who expect canoes to be tippy and they are soon converts.
--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps

Stan Gula wrote:
riverman wrote:
As for keeling...next time you are paddling, try an experiment, I
know
it will suprise you. Get a good forward head of steam with the hull
flat and level, take the paddle out, then shift your weight quickly
to
one side and heel it over. Watch what the boat does...its not what
you
expect.

I'm assuming you mean heeling, not keeling. I think I have a pretty
good
feel for the relatioship between surface area and dragg. As to
your point
about keels, I think we agree that they mostly are good for wearing
out and
hanging up (and keeping the halves of an aluminum hull together).
The same
thing is true of the semi-V hulls like the ones Mad River uses.

Um, right...heeling. And I'm sure you meant 'relationship', not
'relatioship' bseg. Anyway, other than the expected increased glide
factor, the boat does something else suprising. The footprint of a
heeled boat is not quite symmetrical...the side along the tumblehome is
almost straight, while the side along the keel is more rounded, making
a sort-of wing shaped footprint. If you suddenly heel over a boat that
is moving forward, it will slip abeam. Try it.

I never really could quantify the difference in behavior between
shallow-V hulls, flat bottomed and rounded hulls. I knew they handled
differently, but the effect all seemed to 'mix in' with other handling
characteristics, so I could not clearly isolate what caused what, like
all those ads seem to. But I do know that I like the behavior of the MR
Explorer (with its shallow V) much more than any other boat I have
paddled, and that little V in the floor makes it easier to bail out the
very last few drops of water that come on board.

What boat do you have, BTW?

A Wenonah Solo Plus (http://www.wenonah.com). I would send you a
better
link except their web site is all frames and they won't let you link
to a
sub page. Note that the narrow hull which makes flyfishing from the
center
seat easy. This is a very stable boat despite the narrowness. I
have lent
this to people who expect canoes to be tippy and they are soon
converts.

Very nice boat! I have a BlueHole 17A....a real riverpig when its
empty, but a very useful flat bottomed boat if you have a load of
camping gear, want to stand and pole or fish, or maybe throw a formal
dance with a few friends.

--riverman

Stan Gula wrote:
riverman wrote:
As for keeling...next time you are paddling, try an experiment, I
know
it will suprise you. Get a good forward head of steam with the hull
flat and level, take the paddle out, then shift your weight quickly
to
one side and heel it over. Watch what the boat does...its not what
you
expect.

I'm assuming you mean heeling, not keeling. I think I have a pretty
good
feel for the relatioship between surface area and dragg. As to
your point
about keels, I think we agree that they mostly are good for wearing
out and
hanging up (and keeping the halves of an aluminum hull together).
The same
thing is true of the semi-V hulls like the ones Mad River uses.

Um, right...heeling. And I'm sure you meant 'relationship', not
'relatioship' bseg. Anyway, other than the expected increased glide
factor, the boat does something else suprising. The footprint of a
heeled boat is not quite symmetrical...the side along the tumblehome is
almost straight, while the side along the keel is more rounded, making
a sort-of wing shaped footprint. If you suddenly heel over a boat that
is moving forward, it will slip abeam. Try it.

I never really could quantify the difference in behavior between
shallow-V hulls, flat bottomed and rounded hulls. I knew they handled
differently, but the effect all seemed to 'mix in' with other handling
characteristics, so I could not clearly isolate what caused what, like
all those ads seem to. But I do know that I like the behavior of the MR
Explorer (with its shallow V) much more than any other boat I have
paddled, and that little V in the floor makes it easier to bail out the
very last few drops of water that come on board.

What boat do you have, BTW?

A Wenonah Solo Plus (http://www.wenonah.com). I would send you a
better
link except their web site is all frames and they won't let you link
to a
sub page. Note that the narrow hull which makes flyfishing from the
center
seat easy. This is a very stable boat despite the narrowness. I
have lent
this to people who expect canoes to be tippy and they are soon
converts.

Very nice boat! I have a BlueHole 17A....a real riverpig when its
empty, but a very useful flat bottomed boat if you have a load of
camping gear, want to stand and pole or fish, or maybe throw a formal
dance with a few friends.

--riverman

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:50:02 -0400, "Tim J."
wrote:

I just stuck the word "flyfishing" in there so it would be on-topic.
;-)

Okay all you roffian canoers, here's the plan: My canoe has two seats at
front and rear with a gunwale in the center. Can I remove the center
gunwale and replace it with a solid, mounted seat for solo ventures, or
will that screw up the structural integrity of the canoe?


Old Town has (or had, I bought one years ago and it's fine) a solid
drop in seat of strong plastic as well as their more popular drop in
seat of canvas. You could probably permanently mount it pretty
easily. You could put that right in front of the yoke / thwart /
gunwale and be fine. You could even cobble up something so that the
thwart would help hold it for a backrest.

Other companies probably have something similar.

If you do remove the present yoke, be sure that you drop the seat
you're putting in by several inches lower than the present yoke /
thwart. Put it as low as possible consonant with your comfort. The
lower any weight is in the bottom of the boat, the more stable the
boat. With a canoe, this is even more important than with a rowboat
or motor boat.



Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:50:02 -0400, "Tim J."
wrote:

I just stuck the word "flyfishing" in there so it would be on-topic.
;-)

Okay all you roffian canoers, here's the plan: My canoe has two seats at
front and rear with a gunwale in the center. Can I remove the center
gunwale and replace it with a solid, mounted seat for solo ventures, or
will that screw up the structural integrity of the canoe?


Old Town has (or had, I bought one years ago and it's fine) a solid
drop in seat of strong plastic as well as their more popular drop in
seat of canvas. You could probably permanently mount it pretty
easily. You could put that right in front of the yoke / thwart /
gunwale and be fine. You could even cobble up something so that the
thwart would help hold it for a backrest.

Other companies probably have something similar.

If you do remove the present yoke, be sure that you drop the seat
you're putting in by several inches lower than the present yoke /
thwart. Put it as low as possible consonant with your comfort. The
lower any weight is in the bottom of the boat, the more stable the
boat. With a canoe, this is even more important than with a rowboat
or motor boat.



Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:25:37 -0400, "Tim J."
wrote:

(snipped)

Maybe my problem is that I bought a cheaper off-brand canoe and the bow
seat is too far forward. It seemed a lot farther forward that I thought
it should be when I got it based on others I'd used, and some folks
(including me) have complained about it when in two-paddler mode.

I don't know why they do that. It's probably not a cheapness factor
as I once had a beauty of a canoe that cost me quite a bit more at an
auction than I'd have paid for cheapie brand new.

Check and see if the seat is any part of the integral support of the
sides of the canoe. If not, put in a new seat farther back and then
remove the old one. If it is part of the support, then make the new
one supportive to the sides, too. It probably isn't, so you should be
able to do it easily if you're hand with tools. BTW, those suckers
usually also have the aft seat farther back than I'd like, also. I
think it's a matter of making a design they think looks good and
assuming all bow paddlers are midgets who bend well and happily. Or
maybe they want to show a large cargo space? I dunno. It's just dumb.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:25:37 -0400, "Tim J."
wrote:

(snipped)

Maybe my problem is that I bought a cheaper off-brand canoe and the bow
seat is too far forward. It seemed a lot farther forward that I thought
it should be when I got it based on others I'd used, and some folks
(including me) have complained about it when in two-paddler mode.

I don't know why they do that. It's probably not a cheapness factor
as I once had a beauty of a canoe that cost me quite a bit more at an
auction than I'd have paid for cheapie brand new.

Check and see if the seat is any part of the integral support of the
sides of the canoe. If not, put in a new seat farther back and then
remove the old one. If it is part of the support, then make the new
one supportive to the sides, too. It probably isn't, so you should be
able to do it easily if you're hand with tools. BTW, those suckers
usually also have the aft seat farther back than I'd like, also. I
think it's a matter of making a design they think looks good and
assuming all bow paddlers are midgets who bend well and happily. Or
maybe they want to show a large cargo space? I dunno. It's just dumb.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:25:37 -0400, "Tim J."
wrote:

(snipped)

Maybe my problem is that I bought a cheaper off-brand canoe and the bow
seat is too far forward. It seemed a lot farther forward that I thought
it should be when I got it based on others I'd used, and some folks
(including me) have complained about it when in two-paddler mode.

I don't know why they do that. It's probably not a cheapness factor
as I once had a beauty of a canoe that cost me quite a bit more at an
auction than I'd have paid for cheapie brand new.

Check and see if the seat is any part of the integral support of the
sides of the canoe. If not, put in a new seat farther back and then
remove the old one. If it is part of the support, then make the new
one supportive to the sides, too. It probably isn't, so you should be
able to do it easily if you're hand with tools. BTW, those suckers
usually also have the aft seat farther back than I'd like, also. I
think it's a matter of making a design they think looks good and
assuming all bow paddlers are midgets who bend well and happily. Or
maybe they want to show a large cargo space? I dunno. It's just dumb.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

Tim J. wrote:
Charlie Choc wrote:
"Tim J." wrote:

Okay all you roffian canoers, here's the plan: My canoe has two
seats at front and rear with a gunwale in the center. Can I remove
the center gunwale and replace it with a solid, mounted seat for
solo ventures, or will that screw up the structural integrity of the
canoe?

Have you tried paddling the canoe 'backwards' while sitting
'backwards' in the front seat? ...

Yeah, I'm doing that now but I'm still too far back. ...

Consider one of these

http://www.boundarywaterscatalog.com...cfm/4,100.html

installed behind the center thwart.

You won't have to "handy andy" your canoe and you'll still
have the yoke so you can haul it around on your shoulders.

I use a similar seat when I paddle my 18 footer solo.

--
Ken Fortenberry