dh@. wrote:

Dogs, cats, cattle, almost all animals "lower" than the
great apes have no sense of self.


You are the last person who would know if they do Goo, that's
for sure. They indicate by their behavior that they do, and there is
absolutely no reason at all to believe they don't.


Even a broken clock can be right once in a while. I would urge you to
look at the following objective studies on self-awareness:

The "mirror test" at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

Scientific American article on empathy:
http://geowords.com/lostlinks/b36/7.htm

In a nutshell, the vast majority of animals cannot truly make a
psychological distinction between themselves and their environment.

- Logic316



"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't."

****wit David Tub of **** Harrison lied:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 Rudy Canoza wrote:


****wit David Tub of **** Harrison lied:


On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 05:25:50 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:



NanK wrote:


Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

No. That's stimulus response, *not* anticipation.


That stimulus response *is* anticipation Goobernicus.

No, ****wit, you idiot, it isn't anticipation.
Anticipation is THINKING about something BEFORE the
stimulus is present.


Not always Rudy.

ALWAYS, you stupid tub of ****.

Rudy Canoza wrote:

Not always Rudy.


ALWAYS, you stupid tub of ****.


You folks ever consider taking this to private e-mail? I doubt anybody's
interested in these personal issues.

- Logic316


"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't."

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:32:26 -0400, Logic316 wrote:

dh@. wrote:

Dogs, cats, cattle, almost all animals "lower" than the
great apes have no sense of self.


You are the last person who would know if they do Goo, that's
for sure. They indicate by their behavior that they do, and there is
absolutely no reason at all to believe they don't.


Even a broken clock can be right once in a while. I would urge you to
look at the following objective studies on self-awareness:

The "mirror test" at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

That's not a test to see if animals have awareness. It's simply an
effort to get them to realise that what they view is somehow a
representation of themselves. It's not surprising that a dog can't
learn it, but it could certainly pass a test of awareness of its own urine
marking its own territory:

"...there is also debate as to the value of the test as applied to animals
who rely primarily on senses other than vision, such as dogs."

which to me means the same thing as it would if they passed the mirror test:
they are aware of themselves.

Scientific American article on empathy:
http://geowords.com/lostlinks/b36/7.htm

In a nutshell, the vast majority of animals cannot truly make a
psychological distinction between themselves and their environment.

- Logic316

Just because they don't recognise themselves in a mirror doesn't
have anything to do with an inability to be aware of themsevles.
I saw nothing on the empathy page to indicate that either, but if you
think it's there I'd be interested in exactly what you're referring to. So
far I've seen only evidence that they are aware of themselves, and
nothing to indicate they are not. Just the fact that they recognise other
individual beings, even of different species, is proof to me that they
are aware of other individuals, and almost certainly aware that they are
an individual as well.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:19:29 -0400, Logic316 wrote:

Rudy Canoza wrote:

Not always Rudy.


ALWAYS, you stupid tub of ****.


You folks ever consider taking this to private e-mail? I doubt anybody's
interested in these personal issues.

No one's going to learn anything from Goo. So the only
way I'll learn anything from ngs about this stuff, is to include
other people. I wondered if there were any other people
who had similar beliefs about animal awareness for example,
and you provided some significant info and ideas about it.
Do you think I'd ever get anything like that out of email with
Goo? I sure don't.

Goo ****wit David Tub-of-**** Harrison lied:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:19:29 -0400, Logic316 wrote:


Rudy Canoza wrote:


Not always Rudy.


ALWAYS, you stupid tub of ****.


You folks ever consider taking this to private e-mail? I doubt anybody's
interested in these personal issues.


No one's going to learn anything from Rudy.

A reasonably sensible and open-minded person could
learn a lot from me, ****wit, but you're neither
sensible nor open-minded. You're a stupid, lying,
Southern cracker, and a stinking tub of ****.

****wit David Tub-of-**** Harrison lied:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:32:26 -0400, Logic316 wrote:

****wit David Tub-of-**** Harrison lied:

Dogs, cats, cattle, almost all animals "lower" than the
great apes have no sense of self.


You are the last person who would know if they do Goo, that's
for sure. They indicate by their behavior that they do, and there is
absolutely no reason at all to believe they don't.


Even a broken clock can be right once in a while. I would urge you to
look at the following objective studies on self-awareness:

The "mirror test" at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

That's not a test to see if animals have awareness. It's simply an
effort to get them to realise that what they view is somehow a
representation of themselves.

That's what self awareness IS, you stupid unthinking uneducated
Southern hillbilly tub of ****.

dh@. writes:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:32:26 -0400, Logic316 wrote:

dh@. wrote:

Dogs, cats, cattle, almost all animals "lower" than the
great apes have no sense of self.


You are the last person who would know if they do Goo, that's
for sure. They indicate by their behavior that they do, and there is
absolutely no reason at all to believe they don't.


Even a broken clock can be right once in a while. I would urge you to
look at the following objective studies on self-awareness:

The "mirror test" at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

That's not a test to see if animals have awareness. It's simply an
effort to get them to realise that what they view is somehow a
representation of themselves. It's not surprising that a dog can't
learn it, but it could certainly pass a test of awareness of its own urine
marking its own territory:

"...there is also debate as to the value of the test as applied to animals
who rely primarily on senses other than vision, such as dogs."

which to me means the same thing as it would if they passed the mirror test:
they are aware of themselves.

Well, no. It casts doubt on whether it's a good test for dogs. Note
that at this point it's quite well established that rubbing a puppy's
nose in its messes is useless in housebreaking the animal; this
implies that they aren't aware that they were responsible for the
mess. Whatever a dog's reaction to its own urine means, it's hard to
imagine it would imply real self-awareness.

It's hard for me to imagine my Golden doesn't have self-awareness at
some level when brings me a toy and bumps my elbow to know my hand off
the keyboard. But that's different from real objective evidence.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
skype: jjpfeifferjr

"Rudy Canoza" writes:

That's what self awareness IS, you stupid unthinking uneducated
Southern hillbilly tub of ****.

Are you really this incredibly boorish in person? dh@ appears to be
trying valiantly to have a conversation, and your response is to paint
yourself as an idiot.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
skype: jjpfeifferjr

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

dh@. writes:


On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:32:26 -0400, Logic316 wrote:


dh@. wrote:


Dogs, cats, cattle, almost all animals "lower" than the
great apes have no sense of self.


You are the last person who would know if they do Goo, that's
for sure. They indicate by their behavior that they do, and there is
absolutely no reason at all to believe they don't.


Even a broken clock can be right once in a while. I would urge you to
look at the following objective studies on self-awareness:

The "mirror test" at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

That's not a test to see if animals have awareness. It's simply an
effort to get them to realise that what they view is somehow a
representation of themselves. It's not surprising that a dog can't
learn it, but it could certainly pass a test of awareness of its own urine
marking its own territory:

"...there is also debate as to the value of the test as applied to animals
who rely primarily on senses other than vision, such as dogs."

which to me means the same thing as it would if they passed the mirror test:
they are aware of themselves.


Well, no. It casts doubt on whether it's a good test for dogs. Note
that at this point it's quite well established that rubbing a puppy's
nose in its messes is useless in housebreaking the animal; this
implies that they aren't aware that they were responsible for the
mess. Whatever a dog's reaction to its own urine means, it's hard to
imagine it would imply real self-awareness.

It's hard for me to imagine my Golden doesn't have self-awareness at
some level when brings me a toy and bumps my elbow to know my hand off
the keyboard. But that's different from real objective evidence.

"No dog knows that there have been dogs before him, and
there will be dogs after him." - Kenneth Boulding