TR: The gourmet trip. (long)
 

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...


Fascinating that such a tremendous population of birds can be maintained
where hunters can legally sell their game. Here in Wisconsin, and in
most,
if not all, of the U.S. (as far as I know) such practices are strictly
forbidden and violations are met with very severe fines and even jail
time.
All this for good reason; more than one species (passenger pigeons come
readily to mind) were driven to extinction by market hunting, and numerous
others (bison, for example) to the brink. Were the practice still allowed
here, Bubba would exterminate anything and everything even remotely
edible......not to mention many other things that aren't. We are nothing,
if not effective killers.


That's for sure, although I don't think "Bubba" (being, I assume, a
euphemism for a rural dweller of limited global awareness) is primarily at
fault. I think its more "Winston P. Railbaron III and Associates" who has
the resources and drive, and who inspires Bubba to buy a case of shotgun
shells with a promise of an easy payday for a day out hunting. Americans in
particular seem overly willing to blindly overconsume (or overproduce, or
over-mine, or over-harvest) when it involves personal gain. Maybe it has to
do with our Capitalist ideals: the thought that these things are essentially
inexhaustible raw material for generating personal wealth, and an associated
belief that it's essentially better to develop these resources than it is to
let them 'go to waste'. A type of environmental Manifest Destiny, if you
will. (I hear there's a good book out there called "Dominion", or something
like that, which deals with exactly this.)

I appreciate the ratrace idea that we all can attain disproportionate
personal wealth (in fact, I regularly hope for it), but the basis for that
wealth has to come from somewhere.... In the Scandahoovian countries, which
are socialist, there are two essential differences to our American
mentalities: everyone is provided for at a reasonable minimum standard
(which greatly reduces the "get it before its too late" attitude), and there
is an associated belief that nature is our friend (as opposed to American's
essential fear of nature, and our view of it as something to be 'conquered'
or subdued). Where the American psyche is filled with ideas of the historic
"untamed West", and the "brutal savages" and dangerous animals who live
there, the European psyche has given us the ideals of the preserved
wilderness, and the rural countryfolk who dwell in harmony with nature
(imagine what Grimm's Fairy Tales would look like if they were written by a
resident of NYC).

The last time I headed out into unexplored countryside for several days, my
urbanized american friends expressed horror that I was endangering myself by
going 'out into nature' alone, and wasn't I scared?? And all of my rural
friends (american and european) expressed envy and asked how much fun it
was. The idea of being surrounded by wild beests is anathema to the average
american, and sheer protected joy to the average Scanahoovian, AFAIK.

--riverman

TR: The gourmet trip. (long)
 

Greg Pavlov:
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:04:58 +0100, "riverman" wrote:
Where the American psyche is filled with ideas of the historic
"untamed West", and the "brutal savages" and dangerous animals who live
there, the European psyche has given us the ideals of the preserved
wilderness, and the rural countryfolk who dwell in harmony with nature
(imagine what Grimm's Fairy Tales would look like if they were written by
a
resident of NYC).


Funny you should mention grim Grimm. Have you
ever read early versions of these stories ? I
doubt that many residents of NYC would have
been able to match them.

Which brings to mind the difference in wolf/human interactions in the Old
World and the New. If what I read some years ago is correct, Wolves in
Europe have been documented to attack and kill humans while those in the New
World have not been implicated in documented killings of humans.

Then, we have the Russian tradition of dancing bear acts but no real
tradition of dancing bears here, except at certain concerts.


--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/i...age92kword.htm

TR: The gourmet trip. (long)
 

"slenon" wrote in message
m...
Greg Pavlov:
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:04:58 +0100, "riverman" wrote:
Where the American psyche is filled with ideas of the historic
"untamed West", and the "brutal savages" and dangerous animals who live
there, the European psyche has given us the ideals of the preserved
wilderness, and the rural countryfolk who dwell in harmony with nature
(imagine what Grimm's Fairy Tales would look like if they were written
by
a
resident of NYC).


Funny you should mention grim Grimm. Have you
ever read early versions of these stories ? I
doubt that many residents of NYC would have
been able to match them.

Which brings to mind the difference in wolf/human interactions in the Old
World and the New. If what I read some years ago is correct, Wolves in
Europe have been documented to attack and kill humans while those in the
New
World have not been implicated in documented killings of humans.

No humans killed by wolfs since 1780. At least in Sweden.
I know that killing 100 ptarmigans sounds as much, but consider the fact
that our mountain region is the size of England and that hunting is allowed
in only a small part of that area. Then consider that although Italians,
Englishmen, Norwegians and Germans like to visit and hunt in this region you
can still be out hunting for two weeks in a row without seeing a single
soul. And this whilst you hunt in a valley 60 square kilometers in size.
As a matter of fact all our predators, except mountain fox, and most of our
hunting game is increasing.
The hunting association on the other hand is growing smaller and smaller.
The number of hunters is decreasing as well.
Most people are to goddamn comfortable to visit such remote locations
anyway.
I felt bad being party of shooting 100 ptarmigans, but we were well within
the limit, which coincidentally is a recommendation rather than a rule.
It's hard to describe the size of the wilderness available considering that
one can drive as far north as 400 kilometers north of the Arctic circle by
car in Sweden.
Anyway, I will soon post about the Lapland clave 2004. I have decided to
hold it in such a remote location and I have been able to find a cabin that
we can use together with tents. Thinking that those that will travel
furthest can use the cabin.

/Roger

TR: The gourmet trip. (long)
 

"Roger Ohlund" wrote in message
...
Anyway, I will soon post about the Lapland clave 2004. I have decided to
hold it in such a remote location and I have been able to find a cabin
that
we can use together with tents. Thinking that those that will travel
furthest can use the cabin.

Works for me. :-)

--riverman

TR: The gourmet trip. (long)
 

Roger Ohlund:
No humans killed by wolfs since 1780. At least in Sweden.

All the accounts I've read of wolves attacking humans are from that time
frame or earlier, excepting Russian accounts. Given that they often were
reported during extremely harsh winters, periods of warfare, and disease
outbreaks, who's to know whether or not they were actually even wolves or if
they were, instead, packs of dogs.


--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/i...age92kword.htm

TR: The gourmet trip. (long)
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:16:30 GMT, "slenon"
wrote:

Greg Pavlov:
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:04:58 +0100, "riverman" wrote:
Where the American psyche is filled with ideas of the historic
"untamed West", and the "brutal savages" and dangerous animals who live
there, the European psyche has given us the ideals of the preserved
wilderness, and the rural countryfolk who dwell in harmony with nature
(imagine what Grimm's Fairy Tales would look like if they were written by
a
resident of NYC).


Funny you should mention grim Grimm. Have you
ever read early versions of these stories ? I
doubt that many residents of NYC would have
been able to match them.

Which brings to mind the difference in wolf/human interactions in the Old
World and the New. If what I read some years ago is correct, Wolves in
Europe have been documented to attack and kill humans while those in the New
World have not been implicated in documented killings of humans.

Where is the documentation?

The most famous one I recall was the old Russian one about the bridal
party in sleighs being chased and attacked by wolves until all but two
were killed. When examined by people outside the village those two
were major strong men in, it turned out to be a lot more likely that
the wolves (or some animals) had merely scavenged the bodies of those
the two 'survivors' had killed and robbed. Something about the
survivors having a lot of extra cash and possession of jewelry known
to have been taken along on the trip by the 'wolf victims.'

Then, we have the Russian tradition of dancing bear acts but no real
tradition of dancing bears here, except at certain concerts.

I have read that at least some of the dancing bears were pretty
harmless because they'd had their fangs removed and their front paws
broken. This made it easier to get them up and shuffling around on
their hind paws. Add a little music and showmanship and you've got
dancing bears. Not generally allowed any more due to the humane
treatment of animals laws.
--

rbc:vixen,Minnow Goddess,Willow Watcher,and all that sort of thing.
Often taunted by trout.
Only a fool would refuse to believe in luck. Only a damn fool would rely on it.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli

TR: The gourmet trip. (long)
 

Where is the documentation?

The most famous one I recall was the old Russian one about the bridal
party in sleighs being chased and attacked by wolves until all but two
were killed.


Cyli, some of it comes from old journals and histories that I've read in the
past for one class or another. Some from conservationist material that I've
stumbled across, and some is anecdotal. I can't put my fingers on the
specific passages today, or yesterday. It was merely an aside based upon
something recalled. I may even have been thinking of old folk tales I've
read that describe wolf attacks. Your Russian tale may well be an
explanation for some of the recorded deaths. Stranger things have happened.

As for the dancing bears, your recall matches with mine as to the bears'
treatment. The lack of such performances in this country may also have
something to do with the different species we have here.




--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/i...age92kword.htm