"the" movie ...years later ... review
 

On 2009-12-18 16:50:53 -0500, Giles said:

On Dec 18, 3:33*pm, " wrote:
On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote:

On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote:

I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in
particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the
period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond
Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book
contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by
Miller, Bodmer and Catlin.

This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George
Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly."

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm`

I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message.

Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass.

Why?

He reached the site. I reached the site. YOU are the ****in' moron, dumbass.

"the" movie ...years later ... review
 

On Dec 18, 4:03*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2009-12-18 16:50:53 -0500, Giles said:





On Dec 18, 3:33*pm, " wrote:
On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote:

On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote:

I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in
particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the
period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond
Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book
contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by
Miller, Bodmer and Catlin.

This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George
Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly."

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm`

I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message.

Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass.

Why?

He reached the site.

How do you know that?

I reached the site.

Hm......you're suggesting I should believe you?

YOU are the ****in' moron, dumbass.

Oh? And why is that?

g.

"the" movie ...years later ... review
 

On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote:
On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote:

I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in
particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the
period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond
Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book
contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by
Miller, Bodmer and Catlin.

This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George
Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly."

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm`

I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message.
So, I still don't know anything about Alfred Jacob Miller or what
DeVoto learned from him. *I could do a little research and find out
for myself, of course, but my first such endeavor today, while
interesting and enlightening enough, didn't result in anything
germain. *Maybe a capsule report from you would help me to decide
whether or not the matter is worth pursuing.

Thanks.

giles

For example, he identifies the Lenni Lenapes as a group of East Coast
Indians who did not vanish but transformed into plains people via
their association with the EuroAmerican newcomer. IE another
adaptation scenario/ alternate to the Cherokee? These determinations
allow for an alternative "opposite side of the battle-line" interpret
of the Frontier Wars. etc

He spots the double re curve, composite bow in the paintings, Even til
recently the North American indigenous horse peoples were not credited
with this innovation. Standard opinion was that this kind of very
powerful and maneuverable bow was the sole province of the Mongol
Horde. Devoto raised all kinds of questions to a placid academic
orthodoxy. DeVoto was a precursor of the best of the New Left
historical analysis. He had a respect for artifact as well as words in
presenting and interpreting the record.

Dave

"the" movie ...years later ... review
 

On Dec 18, 11:20*am, Larry L wrote:
On Dec 17, 7:27*pm, DaveS wrote:

. Did
the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that.

Nothing really "put me off" ..... and nothing "turned me on"

As a lover of both fly fishing and the Mountain West, I expected the
latter .... given, as I said, the movies reputation for "causing" the
fly fishing fad in the years after it came out *... I expected to be
itching to go fishing in Montana after watching it ... I wasn't

UM, a bit more....

I don't look back on my own drunken, drugging, days as anything even
close to "romantic" ... I know too many that died, or otherwise wasted
their lives, *from that "romance" * * I don't dispute the accuracy of
a story basically about such waste and death, I just don't see the
reported appeal that would bring the masses charging to Montana, fry
rods in hand. * * *That story could have been set anywhere, ime, *and
been equally accurate

... and depressing because of that accuracy.

Well probably so Larry. Maybe told my part a little romantically but
not much. I wasn't going up miles of mountain road snow/student car
for drunken an drugging; I was going up there to work weekends. The
tourons drank for fun. Locals had their own reasons. Its sometimes
easy to miss community when its hard to see beyond the pathologies.

OK enough heavy ****. Montana isn't for everyone, thank God. Ever been
to Butte?

Dave :+))

"the" movie ...years later ... review
 

On Dec 18, 1:50*pm, Giles wrote:
On Dec 18, 3:33*pm, " wrote:





On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote:

On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote:

I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in
particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the
period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond
Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book
contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by
Miller, Bodmer and Catlin.

This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George
Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly."

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm`

I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message.

Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass.

Why?

Moron.

g.

So you can read the text on the web site. Christ, you are one stupid
****.

"the" movie ...years later ... review
 

On Dec 18, 11:05*pm, DaveS wrote:
On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote:





On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote:

I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in
particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the
period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond
Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book
contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by
Miller, Bodmer and Catlin.

This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George
Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly."

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm`

I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message.
So, I still don't know anything about Alfred Jacob Miller or what
DeVoto learned from him. *I could do a little research and find out
for myself, of course, but my first such endeavor today, while
interesting and enlightening enough, didn't result in anything
germain. *Maybe a capsule report from you would help me to decide
whether or not the matter is worth pursuing.

Thanks.

giles

For example, he identifies the Lenni Lenapes as a group of East Coast
Indians who did not vanish but transformed into plains people via
their association with the EuroAmerican newcomer. IE another
adaptation scenario/ alternate to the Cherokee? These determinations
allow for an alternative "opposite side of the battle-line" interpret
of the Frontier Wars. etc



He spots the double re curve, composite bow in the paintings, Even til
recently the North American indigenous horse peoples were not credited
with this innovation. Standard opinion was that this kind of very
powerful and maneuverable bow was the sole province of the Mongol
Horde. Devoto raised all kinds of questions to a placid academic
orthodoxy. DeVoto was a precursor of the best of the New Left
historical analysis. He had a respect for artifact as well as words in
presenting and interpreting the record.

Dave

I remember seeing a representation of a bow such as you describe
sometime in the not too distant past. In fact, I think it may have
been within the context of a disucssion here in ROFF. I don't recall
whether it was a representation of a painting or drawing, or if it was
a photograph of a still extant artifact. In any case, it wasn't
difficult to find others. A Google search on Alfred Jacob Miller
turned up this page:

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Hi...ng_buffalo.htm

Scroll down a ways and you'll find two items which appear to show such
a bow. One of them is untitled, the one just below "The Surround."
The central figure is about to loose an arrow from a bow whose lower
limb looks like it may be recurved. Hardly conclusive, though. On
the other hand, in the next painting, "Buffalo Bull a Grand Pawnee
Warrior," the figure is holding a bow that is indisputably recurved.
Interestingly, neither painting is by Miller.....both are credited to
Catlin. Can't be certain, of course, but it seems unlikely that two
hits (one of them iffy, but the other rock solid) this close toegether
on the first try are inexplicable anomolies. I suspect other examples
wouldn't be hard to come up with.

So, a provisional conclusion that the plains Indians had recurved bows
by the 1830s seems pretty reasonable. However, possession doesn't
always equate to innovation. For example, we know for a fact that the
plains Indians had horses (which they most certainly did not invent)
long before the 1830s, and this implies that they almost certainly had
steel knives and lance and arrow points (which they also did not
invent and which, after all, can travel at the speed of a horse),
albeit perhaps in severely limited quantities due to expense. Guns,
too, though probably even fewer. Looking again at Catlin's painting
of Buffalo Bull, the arrow points, the medallion, and the beadwork are
all suggestive of imported modern industrial manufacture, not native
craft. All of these items could have been brought in by Catlin's
party, but they could also have filtered in via other means at any
time in the previous couple of centuries. And the same is of course
true for the bow, and if not for this particular bow, then at least
for its design.

Very well, but the known existence of centuries old trade routes and
at least occasional contact with outsiders who could have brought in
innovative technologies doesn't necessarily preclude local invention
either, right? Right. The matter appears to remain unsettled for now
(at least based on what I've been able to unearth so far), and the
only way I can think of, just off the top of my head, to prove native
invention and manufacture conclusively is to find such an artifact
that can be carbon dated (or otherwise proved) to a date prior to the
earliest possible direct or indirect contact with European
manufactured goods.....which would be sometime in the 16th century, I
suspect.

In any event, while all of this is interesting in its own right, I
think that native innovation as regards recurved bows, even if proved
conculsively, doesn't do much to support the contention that Alfred
Jacob Miller was instrumental in informing DeVoto's understanding of
the real west. The picture is much bigger than that.....and Devoto
was a much bigger man.

As for your observations on DeVoto, included above, yeah, that's all
correct, but he also had a great deal of respect for truth and for
solid research applied to matters of interest and import, germain to
whatever question might be under consideration, accompanied by
contempt for cavilling nonsense.

g.

"the" movie ...years later ... review
 

On Dec 18, 9:40*pm, DaveS wrote:


Ever been
to Butte?

Dave :+))


Yeah ... Jared Diamond starts his book "Collapse" with a chapter on
that area. You can't **** with Mother Nature for short term gains
without paying a long term heavy price.

"the" movie ...years later ... review
 

On Dec 19, 7:28*am, Giles wrote:
On Dec 18, 11:05*pm, DaveS wrote:





On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote:

On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote:

I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in
particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the
period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond
Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book
contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by
Miller, Bodmer and Catlin.

This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George
Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly."

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm`

I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message.
So, I still don't know anything about Alfred Jacob Miller or what
DeVoto learned from him. *I could do a little research and find out
for myself, of course, but my first such endeavor today, while
interesting and enlightening enough, didn't result in anything
germain. *Maybe a capsule report from you would help me to decide
whether or not the matter is worth pursuing.

Thanks.

giles

For example, he identifies the Lenni Lenapes as a group of East Coast
Indians who did not vanish but transformed into plains people via
their association with the EuroAmerican newcomer. IE another
adaptation scenario/ alternate to the Cherokee? These determinations
allow for an alternative "opposite side of the battle-line" interpret
of the Frontier Wars. etc
He spots the double re curve, composite bow in the paintings, Even til
recently the North American indigenous horse peoples were not credited
with this innovation. Standard opinion was that this kind of very
powerful and maneuverable bow was the sole province of the Mongol
Horde. Devoto raised all kinds of questions to a placid academic
orthodoxy. DeVoto was a precursor of the best of the New Left
historical analysis. He had a respect for artifact as well as words in
presenting and interpreting the record.

Dave

I remember seeing a representation of a bow such as you describe
sometime in the not too distant past. *In fact, I think it may have
been within the context of a disucssion here in ROFF. *I don't recall
whether it was a representation of a painting or drawing, or if it was
a photograph of a still extant artifact. *In any case, it wasn't
difficult to find others. *A Google search on Alfred Jacob Miller
turned up this page:

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Hi...o/Catlin_Bodme...

Scroll down a ways and you'll find two items which appear to show such
a bow. *One of them is untitled, the one just below "The Surround."
The central figure is about to loose an arrow from a bow whose lower
limb looks like it may be recurved. *Hardly conclusive, though. *On
the other hand, in the next painting, "Buffalo Bull a Grand Pawnee
Warrior," the figure is holding a bow that is indisputably recurved.
Interestingly, neither painting is by Miller.....both are credited to
Catlin. *Can't be certain, of course, but it seems unlikely that two
hits (one of them iffy, but the other rock solid) this close toegether
on the first try are inexplicable anomolies. *I suspect other examples
wouldn't be hard to come up with.

So, a provisional conclusion that the plains Indians had recurved bows
by the 1830s seems pretty reasonable. *However, possession doesn't
always equate to innovation. *For example, we know for a fact that the
plains Indians had horses (which they most certainly did not invent)
long before the 1830s, and this implies that they almost certainly had
steel knives and lance and arrow points (which they also did not
invent and which, after all, can travel at the speed of a horse),
albeit perhaps in severely limited quantities due to expense. *Guns,
too, though probably even fewer. *Looking again at Catlin's painting
of Buffalo Bull, the arrow points, the medallion, and the beadwork are
all suggestive of imported modern industrial manufacture, not native
craft. *All of these items could have been brought in by Catlin's
party, but they could also have filtered in via other means at any
time in the previous couple of centuries. *And the same is of course
true for the bow, and if not for this particular bow, then at least
for its design.

Very well, but the known existence of centuries old trade routes and
at least occasional contact with outsiders who could have brought in
innovative technologies doesn't necessarily preclude local invention
either, right? *Right. *The matter appears to remain unsettled for now
(at least based on what I've been able to unearth so far), and the
only way I can think of, just off the top of my head, to prove native
invention and manufacture conclusively is to find such an artifact
that can be carbon dated (or otherwise proved) to a date prior to the
earliest possible direct or indirect contact with European
manufactured goods.....which would be sometime in the 16th century, I
suspect.

In any event, while all of this is interesting in its own right, I
think that native innovation as regards recurved bows, even if proved
conculsively, doesn't do much to support the contention that Alfred
Jacob Miller was instrumental in informing DeVoto's understanding of
the real west. *The picture is much bigger than that.....and Devoto
was a much bigger man.

As for your observations on DeVoto, included above, yeah, that's all
correct, but he also had a great deal of respect for truth and for
solid research applied to matters of interest and import, germain to
whatever question might be under consideration, accompanied by
contempt for cavilling nonsense.

g.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There was a discussion of this a few years ago on ROFF. Seems i won a
bet against the composite/recurve being exclusively Mongol. And as I
recall (without offering footnotes for those requiring same), the
origin of the composite bows was attributed to a native American group
centered in the Yellowstone region, who manufactured these bows which
were traded East and West along the Great Road. I forget the kind of
wood they used (perhaps yew), or the glues, but I do remember that one
of the laminates in the composite were strips of de-laminated Big Horn
sheep horn.

And again from memory, no footnotes offered ;+) the powerful short
bows were particularly important for smashing an arrow thru the rib
cage of a bison from a horse, while the riders torso was slung under
the horses neck. The other key use was for killing Grizzly bears,
which at that point were denizens of the plains.

Associated with that discussion were some exchanges with a Roffian who
had Delaware (Lenni Lenape) in his ancestry and shared something of
their presence on the Southern Plains, My interest in the Lenni
Lenapes ties to my NJ youth. Their transformation and survival was
contra to the history we were taught in NJ. The Rocky Mountain fur
trade Delawares came from reservations in the Ohio Valley, and my bro
has said there was some Delaware presence in Wisconsin, although I
don't know where that might be. Both he and I married into part Native
blood.

As to "cavilling nonsense," and some such, . . . never considered a
career in communications I gather? I try to control my own inner
Teuton, at least during the holidays. ;=)

Dave

"the" movie ...years later ... review
 

On Dec 19, 10:52*am, DaveS wrote:
On Dec 19, 7:28*am, Giles wrote:





On Dec 18, 11:05*pm, DaveS wrote:

On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote:

On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote:

I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in
particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the
period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond
Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book
contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by
Miller, Bodmer and Catlin.

This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George
Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly."

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm`

I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message.
So, I still don't know anything about Alfred Jacob Miller or what
DeVoto learned from him. *I could do a little research and find out
for myself, of course, but my first such endeavor today, while
interesting and enlightening enough, didn't result in anything
germain. *Maybe a capsule report from you would help me to decide
whether or not the matter is worth pursuing.

Thanks.

giles

For example, he identifies the Lenni Lenapes as a group of East Coast
Indians who did not vanish but transformed into plains people via
their association with the EuroAmerican newcomer. IE another
adaptation scenario/ alternate to the Cherokee? These determinations
allow for an alternative "opposite side of the battle-line" interpret
of the Frontier Wars. etc
He spots the double re curve, composite bow in the paintings, Even til
recently the North American indigenous horse peoples were not credited
with this innovation. Standard opinion was that this kind of very
powerful and maneuverable bow was the sole province of the Mongol
Horde. Devoto raised all kinds of questions to a placid academic
orthodoxy. DeVoto was a precursor of the best of the New Left
historical analysis. He had a respect for artifact as well as words in
presenting and interpreting the record.

Dave

I remember seeing a representation of a bow such as you describe
sometime in the not too distant past. *In fact, I think it may have
been within the context of a disucssion here in ROFF. *I don't recall
whether it was a representation of a painting or drawing, or if it was
a photograph of a still extant artifact. *In any case, it wasn't
difficult to find others. *A Google search on Alfred Jacob Miller
turned up this page:

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Hi...o/Catlin_Bodme...

Scroll down a ways and you'll find two items which appear to show such
a bow. *One of them is untitled, the one just below "The Surround."
The central figure is about to loose an arrow from a bow whose lower
limb looks like it may be recurved. *Hardly conclusive, though. *On
the other hand, in the next painting, "Buffalo Bull a Grand Pawnee
Warrior," the figure is holding a bow that is indisputably recurved.
Interestingly, neither painting is by Miller.....both are credited to
Catlin. *Can't be certain, of course, but it seems unlikely that two
hits (one of them iffy, but the other rock solid) this close toegether
on the first try are inexplicable anomolies. *I suspect other examples
wouldn't be hard to come up with.

So, a provisional conclusion that the plains Indians had recurved bows
by the 1830s seems pretty reasonable. *However, possession doesn't
always equate to innovation. *For example, we know for a fact that the
plains Indians had horses (which they most certainly did not invent)
long before the 1830s, and this implies that they almost certainly had
steel knives and lance and arrow points (which they also did not
invent and which, after all, can travel at the speed of a horse),
albeit perhaps in severely limited quantities due to expense. *Guns,
too, though probably even fewer. *Looking again at Catlin's painting
of Buffalo Bull, the arrow points, the medallion, and the beadwork are
all suggestive of imported modern industrial manufacture, not native
craft. *All of these items could have been brought in by Catlin's
party, but they could also have filtered in via other means at any
time in the previous couple of centuries. *And the same is of course
true for the bow, and if not for this particular bow, then at least
for its design.

Very well, but the known existence of centuries old trade routes and
at least occasional contact with outsiders who could have brought in
innovative technologies doesn't necessarily preclude local invention
either, right? *Right. *The matter appears to remain unsettled for now
(at least based on what I've been able to unearth so far), and the
only way I can think of, just off the top of my head, to prove native
invention and manufacture conclusively is to find such an artifact
that can be carbon dated (or otherwise proved) to a date prior to the
earliest possible direct or indirect contact with European
manufactured goods.....which would be sometime in the 16th century, I
suspect.

In any event, while all of this is interesting in its own right, I
think that native innovation as regards recurved bows, even if proved
conculsively, doesn't do much to support the contention that Alfred
Jacob Miller was instrumental in informing DeVoto's understanding of
the real west. *The picture is much bigger than that.....and Devoto
was a much bigger man.

As for your observations on DeVoto, included above, yeah, that's all
correct, but he also had a great deal of respect for truth and for
solid research applied to matters of interest and import, germain to
whatever question might be under consideration, accompanied by
contempt for cavilling nonsense.

g.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There was a discussion of this a few years ago on ROFF. Seems i won a
bet against the composite/recurve being exclusively Mongol. And as I
recall (without offering footnotes for those requiring same), the
origin of the composite bows was attributed to a native American group
centered in the Yellowstone region, who manufactured these bows which
were traded East and West along the Great Road. I forget the kind of
wood they used (perhaps yew), or the glues, but I do remember that one
of the laminates in the composite were strips of de-laminated Big Horn
sheep horn.

And again from memory, no footnotes offered ;+) the powerful short
bows were particularly important for smashing an arrow thru the rib
cage of a bison from a horse, while the riders torso was slung under
the horses neck. The other key use was for killing Grizzly bears,
which at that point were denizens of the plains.

Associated with that discussion were some exchanges with a Roffian who
had Delaware (Lenni Lenape) in his ancestry and shared something of
their presence on the Southern Plains, My interest in the Lenni
Lenapes ties to my NJ youth. Their transformation and survival was
contra to the history we were taught in NJ. The Rocky Mountain fur
trade Delawares came from reservations in the Ohio Valley, and my bro
has said there was some Delaware presence in Wisconsin, although I
don't know where that might be. Both he and I married into part Native
blood.

As to "cavilling nonsense," and some such, . . . *never considered a
career in communications I gather? I try to control my own inner
Teuton, at least during the holidays. ;=)

Dave- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The people who made these special bows were the Tukudika, the "Sheep
Eaters," or in modern terms the Mountain Shoshonee. A pretty strange
little group of high mountain dwellers for which there is much
mythology. Their bows traded East and apparently influenced bow design
out to the coast where most native groups had bow designs with some
recurve and composites.

This paper has a first person description of an all-horn bow building
technique used by the Tukudika starting on page 14.

http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhi...s/Dominick.pdf

Dave

"the" movie ...years later ... review
 

On Dec 19, 12:52*pm, DaveS wrote:



There was a discussion of this a few years ago on ROFF. Seems i won a
bet against the composite/recurve being exclusively Mongol. And as I
recall (without offering footnotes for those requiring same), the
origin of the composite bows was attributed to a native American group
centered in the Yellowstone region, who manufactured these bows which
were traded East and West along the Great Road. I forget the kind of
wood they used (perhaps yew), or the glues, but I do remember that one
of the laminates in the composite were strips of de-laminated Big Horn
sheep horn.

And again from memory, no footnotes offered ;+) the powerful short
bows were particularly important for smashing an arrow thru the rib
cage of a bison from a horse, while the riders torso was slung under
the horses neck. The other key use was for killing Grizzly bears,
which at that point were denizens of the plains.

Associated with that discussion were some exchanges with a Roffian who
had Delaware (Lenni Lenape) in his ancestry and shared something of
their presence on the Southern Plains, My interest in the Lenni
Lenapes ties to my NJ youth. Their transformation and survival was
contra to the history we were taught in NJ. The Rocky Mountain fur
trade Delawares came from reservations in the Ohio Valley, and my bro
has said there was some Delaware presence in Wisconsin, although I
don't know where that might be. Both he and I married into part Native
blood.

As to "cavilling nonsense," and some such, . . . *never considered a
career in communications I gather? I try to control my own inner
Teuton, at least during the holidays. ;=)

Dave

I've spent nearly every waking moment of my life since early childhood
in studying communications. No, I have never for a minute considered
ruining the great joy of my life with a career.

But then, that wasn't a serious question, was it? And you know that I
don't have much trouble in making myself understood (when the mood
strikes me) or in ferreting out what meager nuggets of meaning lurk in
the dross that fills these pages......right?

For example, there are probably some folks here who think this
exchange has had something or other to do with Bernard DeVoto, James
Carnegie and/or William Drummond Stewart and (or maybe not) Alfred
Jacob Miller, recurved bows, art as an instructional device, plains
Indians (some of whom may or may not have come from somewhere else),
native inventiveness vs. commercial acquisition, the real west, etc.
But we know who this has really been all about, don't we?

g.
anyone who is still confused about this need look no further than the
quoted material included above.