Torture?
 

On 2010-02-22 20:24:44 -0500, rw said:

David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 19:39:50 -0500, rw said:

David LaCourse wrote:

On 2010-02-22 19:06:19 -0500, rw said:


Have you ever read the rat scene in Orwell's novel 1984? Is that torture?



You are going way back in my grey matter. Yes, I believe it was, but I
do not think it is the same as waterboarding because there is just the
threat, not the action. (Or, did he put the cage over the guy's head.
Can't remember.) The action would kill. Waterboarding (both the
threat AND the action) does not kill. Doesn't even cause pain.


You clearly missed the entire point of 1984, if indeed you even read it.

Institutionalized violence, including the threat of violence, is on an
entirely different moral footing than personal violence. Orwell was
writing, metaphorically, about Stalinist totalitarianism, but he could
have titled it 2003 and been writing about Gitmo -- at least the rat
part.

(By the way, we stopped waterboarding in 2003, and Cheney is full of
****, and in my opinion is guilty of war crimes.)


They're all full of ****, including Nancy P. who okayed the waterboarding.



Dave, you seem to have the opinion that waterboarding is effective (in
addition to being benign). "Just a simple procedure that lasts less
that 15 seconds."

If it's so effective, why was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed waterboarded 183
times in one month? They waterboarded him an average of six times a day
for one month.

Torture?

Effective?

If they come to waterboard me, hell, save the water. I'll tell them any
damn thing I think they want to hear.

Actually, Steve, I was trying to get a civil discussion going about it.
Until I saw that movie I really didn't hold a position on it, and even
now I don't think I have a solid position. I am for you and yours, me
and mine, and would do just about anything to preserve the status quo.
If this procedure can save lives, anyone's life, and if it is
effective, then I think at certain times it can and should be used.

I thought we had a good discussion of it, even if I was the devil's
advocate. I remember Michael Dukakus on TV with Ted Koppel (I believe
it was Ted) who asked him if he would execute someone that raped and
killed his wife, Kitty. The Duke was speechless and that moment helped
defeat him at the polls. He was against capital punishment (as I am,
btw) but he couldn't make himself say he would execute the perp.

The info they got from KSM was very helpful according to the news. I
believe he was an unending font of information - one bit of intel
leading to another and another and another, hence the long drawn out
experience.

As a member of a highly classified group in the Navy, and privy to very
highly classified secrets and info, I had some training in torture or
more correctly, how to react to it. The men on the Pueblo were some of
my students and shipmates and I am sure they "spilled the beans". I
know I would. The Uniform Code of Justice preached to give only your
name, service number, rank, and dob. But, we all knew that any
interrigation was not going to stop with just that info. Many
condemned Cdr Bucher for breaking, but he did so to protect his men.
In my mind he is and always will be a hero. All that were captured
were released after 11 months, and that is the important thing.

I remarked to Joanne after I posted the video that I was hoping it
would elicit some good discussion, but I knew also that some, like the
man boy in North Cackleacky, would jump down my throat with all the
hate they could muster. I was correct: you and I had a good discourse
until the silly child jumped in with the hate and insults.

Be well. EOT

Dave

Torture?
 

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:56:27 -0800, "John B" wrote:

**** all you son of a bitches....you got in info? telll me or you die!
torture is for ****s who cant pull the
trigger.....assholes....****s....pussy......sor ry *******s.....wake up
mother ****ers...

What's with the negative waves....?

TC,
R

Torture?
 

On Feb 22, 2:31*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
Nah. * A former military friend sent me this. *Very intersting. *His
name is Paul:

*
Great numbers of our own service members endured this treatment as part
of SERE ( survival, evasion, resistance and escape) training prior to
deployment to Viet Nam in the 60’s, myself included. This is obviously
not a pleasant experience, but in no way constitutes torture. The only
permanent effect it has on you, is you are damn sure you don’t want to
repeat.
*
*
*
*
*
Very enlightening, you have to watch this!!!!
*
This is awesome!* Watch it and understand why we have the best military
in the world.* There is no permanent damage done but the response is
immediate.* A much more humane and effective way to obtain critical
intelligence quickly without brutalizing the prisoner. Sure beats
electrocution, ripping off finger nails, acid showers,
whippings/beatings, cutting off limbs, removing eyes & tongues,
drilling out teeth, dislocating shoulders, burning and other ways the
muslims use.
*
*
*
Playboy.com journalist Mike Guy underwent waterboarding by a trained
member of the U.S. military in the site's new Lab Rat feature.
*
Guy bet that he could endure 15 seconds of the interrogation technique
used by the Bush administration on al Qaeda chief Khalid Sheikh
Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah..
*
Watch the results:http://content1. clipmarks. com/content/ 7E8ADC46-
F3DD-4D6F- B184-3A07CF501B7 C
*
*

Blah, blah. What people really want to know is......do you think you
could possibly get any stupider?

g.

Torture?
 

On Feb 22, 4:45*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 16:59:33 -0500, rw said:

After WWII the US convicted Japanese soldiers of war crimes and
sentenced them to very harsh penalties for waterboarding. It's torture.

Perhaps. *But would YOU use it if someone kidnapped your child and
wouldn't tell you where she was? *Would you use it to save one of
yours? *There's no pain. *No lasting physical impairment. *No blood.. *
Our own soldiers experienced it to help them survive interregation. *
Would you beat, hit, bite the man that knew where your child was being
kept? *Simple question, Steve. *Would you sacrifice your child or would
you waterboard the perp? *Remember -- no pain, no blood, no loss of
limbs, teeth, ears, or eyes. *Just a simple procedure that lasts less
that 15 seconds. *Would you?

I sure as hell would. *I'd use it to save YOU, never mind my own
children or loved ones. *Hell, I'd use it to save any human being, and
Wolfgang.

Moron.

Pig.

g.

Torture?
 

On Feb 22, 4:52*pm, rw wrote:
David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 16:59:33 -0500, rw said:

After WWII the US convicted Japanese soldiers of war crimes and
sentenced them to very harsh penalties for waterboarding. It's torture..

Perhaps. *But would YOU use it if someone kidnapped your child and
wouldn't tell you where she was? *Would you use it to save one of
yours? *There's no pain. *No lasting physical impairment. *No blood. *
Our own soldiers experienced it to help them survive interregation. *
Would you beat, hit, bite the man that knew where your child was being
kept? *Simple question, Steve. *Would you sacrifice your child or would
you waterboard the perp? *Remember -- no pain, no blood, no loss of
limbs, teeth, ears, or eyes. *Just a simple procedure that lasts less
that 15 seconds. *Would you?

I sure as hell would. *I'd use it to save YOU, never mind my own
children or loved ones. *Hell, I'd use it to save any human being, and
Wolfgang.

Dave

That's an absurd argument. You could use it to justify ANYTHING, not
just waterboarding.

By the way, General Petaeus, Colin Powell, and John McCain agree with me
that waterboarding is torture and violates American values.


Well, it's good to know that they consulted with you. One can harldy
overstress the importance of quality sources.

g.

Torture?
 

On Feb 22, 5:26*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 17:52:17 -0500, rw said:





David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 16:59:33 -0500, rw said:

After WWII the US convicted Japanese soldiers of war crimes and
sentenced them to very harsh penalties for waterboarding. It's torture.

Perhaps. *But would YOU use it if someone kidnapped your child and
wouldn't tell you where she was? *Would you use it to save one of
yours? *There's no pain. *No lasting physical impairment. *No blood. *
Our own soldiers experienced it to help them survive interregation. *
Would you beat, hit, bite the man that knew where your child was being
kept? *Simple question, Steve. *Would you sacrifice your child or would
you waterboard the perp? *Remember -- no pain, no blood, no loss of
limbs, teeth, ears, or eyes. *Just a simple procedure that lasts less
that 15 seconds. *Would you?

I sure as hell would. *I'd use it to save YOU, never mind my own
children or loved ones. *Hell, I'd use it to save any human being, and
Wolfgang.

Dave

That's an absurd argument. You could use it to justify ANYTHING, not
just waterboarding.

By the way, General Petaeus, Colin Powell, and John McCain agree with
me that waterboarding is torture and violates American values.

I know who is for it and who is against it. *I am neither endorsing nor
condemning it. *The question is absurd, of course, but if you needed
information RIGHT NOW to save a loved one, would you use it? *You
threatened to kick Fortenberry's ass when the jerk called your wife and
child some nasty names. *That is a physical act leaving someone with
pain, and very possibly blood or even death. *You would physically harm
someone over an insult but would not waterboard them to save a loved
one's life? *That is not logical, Steve.

Quite true. The mayhem that ensued from that exchange will live long
in the memories of those who witnessed it.

g.
those of us who missed it, on the other hand.......

Torture?
 

On Feb 22, 5:34*pm, rw wrote:
David LaCourse wrote:

I know who is for it and who is against it. *I am neither endorsing nor
condemning it. *The question is absurd, of course, but if you needed
information RIGHT NOW to save a loved one, would you use it? *You
threatened to kick Fortenberry's ass when the jerk called your wife and
child some nasty names. *That is a physical act leaving someone with
pain, and very possibly blood or even death. *You would physically harm
someone over an insult but would not waterboard them to save a loved
one's life? *That is not logical, Steve.

Actions that are appropriate for an extremely ****ed off person and an
institutional justice/military/intelligence system are two entirely
different things.

Quite true, It would be unseemly for institutional justice/military/
intelligence systems to respond to things they haven't read or heard.

Not to mention the fact that even if they did, the kind of things that
two of our most dangerous and respected thugs did to one another on
the occasion alluded to are unseemly anyway.

g.

Torture?
 

On Feb 22, 6:06*pm, rw wrote:
David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 18:34:02 -0500, rw said:

David LaCourse wrote:

I know who is for it and who is against it. *I am neither endorsing
nor condemning it. *The question is absurd, of course, but if you
needed information RIGHT NOW to save a loved one, would you use it? *
You threatened to kick Fortenberry's ass when the jerk called your
wife and child some nasty names. *That is a physical act leaving
someone with pain, and very possibly blood or even death. *You would
physically harm someone over an insult but would not waterboard them
to save a loved one's life? *That is not logical, Steve.

Actions that are appropriate for an extremely ****ed off person and an
institutional justice/military/intelligence system are two entirely
different things.

NOT if it saves lives, Steve. *Not if it saves lives. *If you are for
physical violence, then waterboarding is a walk in the park.

OK, let's suppose that you were put in the situation that the only way
you could save your wife and child's lives were to insert red-hot
needles into their abductor's eyeballs. First the left, and then, if he
didn't talk, the right. Would you do it? I would.

Now, assuming you would, would you then assert that inserting red-hot
needles into eyeballs is a justified method of interrogating enemy
combatants?

Ask kennie. He does that to himself.

Have you ever read the rat scene in Orwell's novel 1984? Is that torture?

Rats? Ooh.....I LOVE those guys!

g.

Torture?
 

On Feb 22, 6:22*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 19:06:19 -0500, rw said:





David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 18:34:02 -0500, rw said:

David LaCourse wrote:

I know who is for it and who is against it. *I am neither endorsing nor
condemning it. *The question is absurd, of course, but if you needed
information RIGHT NOW to save a loved one, would you use it? *You
threatened to kick Fortenberry's ass when the jerk called your wife and
child some nasty names. *That is a physical act leaving someone with
pain, and very possibly blood or even death. *You would physically harm
someone over an insult but would not waterboard them to save a loved
one's life? *That is not logical, Steve.

Actions that are appropriate for an extremely ****ed off person and an
institutional justice/military/intelligence system are two entirely
different things.

NOT if it saves lives, Steve. *Not if it saves lives. *If you are for
physical violence, then waterboarding is a walk in the park.

OK, let's suppose that you were put in the situation that the only way
you could save your wife and child's lives were to insert red-hot
needles into their abductor's eyeballs. First the left, and then, if he
didn't talk, the right. Would you do it? I would.

Why? *I wouldn't need to. *Waterboarding works! *Physical torture may
or may not work.



Now, assuming you would, would you then assert that inserting red-hot
needles into eyeballs is a justified method of interrogating enemy
combatants?

No. *THAT is torture. *Waterboarding is painless.



Have you ever read the rat scene in Orwell's novel 1984? Is that torture?

You are going way back in my grey matter. *Yes, I believe it was, but I
do not think it is the same as waterboarding because there is just the
threat, not the action. *(Or, did he put the cage over the guy's head. *
Can't remember.) *The action would kill. *Waterboarding (both the
threat AND the action) does not kill. *Doesn't even cause pain.

Actually, those subjected to waterboarding actually LIKE it. That's
why they talk......they hope you'll ask them more questions.
No.....it's true!

Imbecile.

g.

Torture?
 

On Feb 22, 5:43*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 18:34:02 -0500, rw said:

David LaCourse wrote:

I know who is for it and who is against it. *I am neither endorsing nor
condemning it. *The question is absurd, of course, but if you needed
information RIGHT NOW to save a loved one, would you use it? *You
threatened to kick Fortenberry's ass when the jerk called your wife and
child some nasty names. *That is a physical act leaving someone with
pain, and very possibly blood or even death. *You would physically harm
someone over an insult but would not waterboard them to save a loved
one's life? *That is not logical, Steve.

Actions that are appropriate for an extremely ****ed off person and an
institutional justice/military/intelligence system are two entirely
different things.

NOT if it saves lives, Steve. *Not if it saves lives. *If you are for
physical violence, then waterboarding is a walk in the park.

It's amazing, isn't it, how such a benign (if not to say outright
pleasant) experience can make people say whatever you want them to?

Almost makes a boy wonder which end of the board the idiots are at.

Imbecile.

g.