Oh, mama...can this really be the end?
 

paraleptropy paraleptropy wrote in
:

Of course their plan is to protect the trout, without the trout,
there's no money to be made. Although I'm not on the money making
bandwagon, the FUDR plan is still in favor of a pristine Wild Trout
fishery and I'd like to add, extending it an extra 2-3 months! What
more could you ask for? Why not support this plan?

See my last response, but I won't support the 600cfs flow because I think
its a politically untenable plan that the DRBC will never approve, and
arguing for it will damage credibility with the DRBC.


Scott

Oh, mama...can this really be the end?
 

Scott,

The DRBC is in the business of making money. The DEC purchases water
from the DRBC. The DEC does not suggest to the DRBC, "Hey, maybe now
is a good time to release water." They say, "We need water, it's time
for a release." This has nothing to do with the fishery, this has
everything to do with the people who depend on the water from the
river. This leads me to another thing, the DEC doesn't even want the
releases out of Cannonsville. The water from Pepactong is supposedly
much better drinking water. The only problem is that Pepactong is 30
miles from Junction Pool. You would need quite a bit of water
released from Pepactong to cool down any of the Mainstem.

Another thing that dictates the water release is the flow at Montague.
It's not supposed to drop under 1750cfs. So, one day they may release
220cfs then the next day to meet that Montague target, they may
release 1400cfs. The bottom line is that the FUDR is not looking for
anything that hasn't already been given. They're looking to do away
with the Yo-Yo releases that have been consistently coming out of the
dam. They are also looking for less water (on average) that has been
released from the damn (historical average).

I think a MINIMUM RELEASE of 450CFS from Cannonsville will cool the
river possibly down to Stockport. Of course, I'm just guestimating
and may be way off. The current plan is NOT a 250CFS MINIMUM RELEASE!
It's a 250CFS minimum FLOW past Hale's Eddy! This is why it's not
such a great idea. The 250 flow could be 250CFS of 73+- degree water
which of course warms up as it flows downstream. Water temps in
this environment typically heat up 1 degree per mile.

I see you mention something about a 12 month fishery. Nobody is
looking for a 12 month fishery (so to say). What we have now is Part
of April through part of June (approx. 2 months). This is a variable
as I'm sure you know. Then the fishing starts back up in September
and lasts until Oct (another 2 months). If the releases were
consistant (no Yo/Yo releases), we would have a fishing season from
Part of April through October. Considering the variable, this would
extend the fishing season from 3-4 months to 5-6 months.

Beating down the DRBC's throat? Well, I don't know if this will work,
but IMHO, it's better to try something rather than to sit back and do
nothing.

Finally, I don't think it's fair right now to say that the new plan
has been either helpful or non-helpful. I personally think the new
plan of a minimum 225 FLOW, NOT RELEASE, is very harmfull to the
Delaware River System. I think instead of shooting for a 225 flow, we
could have set our standards a bit higher (as a former DRF member) and
shot for a minimum release of 400CFS.

-Regards
-=Paraleptropy=-
http://www.neflyfishing.net
0 Limit,Catch -n- Release

Oh, mama...can this really be the end?
 

paraleptropy paraleptropy wrote in
:


Scott,

The DRBC is in the business of making money. The DEC purchases water
from the DRBC. The DEC does not suggest to the DRBC, "Hey, maybe now
is a good time to release water." They say, "We need water, it's time
for a release." This has nothing to do with the fishery, this has
everything to do with the people who depend on the water from the
river. This leads me to another thing, the DEC doesn't even want the
releases out of Cannonsville. The water from Pepactong is supposedly
much better drinking water. The only problem is that Pepactong is 30
miles from Junction Pool. You would need quite a bit of water
released from Pepactong to cool down any of the Mainstem.

Another thing that dictates the water release is the flow at Montague.
It's not supposed to drop under 1750cfs. So, one day they may release
220cfs then the next day to meet that Montague target, they may
release 1400cfs. The bottom line is that the FUDR is not looking for
anything that hasn't already been given. They're looking to do away
with the Yo-Yo releases that have been consistently coming out of the
dam. They are also looking for less water (on average) that has been
released from the damn (historical average).

I think a MINIMUM RELEASE of 450CFS from Cannonsville will cool the
river possibly down to Stockport. Of course, I'm just guestimating
and may be way off. The current plan is NOT a 250CFS MINIMUM RELEASE!
It's a 250CFS minimum FLOW past Hale's Eddy! This is why it's not
such a great idea. The 250 flow could be 250CFS of 73+- degree water
which of course warms up as it flows downstream. Water temps in
this environment typically heat up 1 degree per mile.

I see you mention something about a 12 month fishery. Nobody is
looking for a 12 month fishery (so to say). What we have now is Part
of April through part of June (approx. 2 months). This is a variable
as I'm sure you know. Then the fishing starts back up in September
and lasts until Oct (another 2 months). If the releases were
consistant (no Yo/Yo releases), we would have a fishing season from
Part of April through October. Considering the variable, this would
extend the fishing season from 3-4 months to 5-6 months.

Beating down the DRBC's throat? Well, I don't know if this will work,
but IMHO, it's better to try something rather than to sit back and do
nothing.

Finally, I don't think it's fair right now to say that the new plan
has been either helpful or non-helpful. I personally think the new
plan of a minimum 225 FLOW, NOT RELEASE, is very harmfull to the
Delaware River System. I think instead of shooting for a 225 flow, we
could have set our standards a bit higher (as a former DRF member) and
shot for a minimum release of 400CFS.

-Regards
-=Paraleptropy=-
http://www.neflyfishing.net
0 Limit,Catch -n- Release


Some, perhaps even most, of the ideas you put forth are fine. For
example, what should DRBC care about whether a release comes from the top
or bottom of the dam? Also, there are ways that they can prevent yo-yo
releases. I have no problem with those parts of the proposal.

Also, I think you're confusing the DEC with the DEP. The DEP is the
city department that deals with the NYC water supply. The DEC is the
state commission that deals with the fishery.

A warm river doesn't necessarily equal a fish kill. Fish find cool
water. They may be harder to find and catch, but they live. Look at the
new regs designed to provide thermal refuge in the Beamoc area, for
example. There are ways to protect fish, even when you can't regulate
flows.

You need to evaluate the new plan with respect to the old plan. Are
conditions, better, worse, or the same. If they're no worse, how can you
call the new policies more harmful than the old?

Last, if you think a 400CFS release will meet all your goals, why are you
asking for a 600CFS release?

Oh, mama...can this really be the end?
 

paraleptropy paraleptropy wrote in
:


Scott,

The DRBC is in the business of making money. The DEC purchases water
from the DRBC. The DEC does not suggest to the DRBC, "Hey, maybe now
is a good time to release water." They say, "We need water, it's time
for a release." This has nothing to do with the fishery, this has
everything to do with the people who depend on the water from the
river. This leads me to another thing, the DEC doesn't even want the
releases out of Cannonsville. The water from Pepactong is supposedly
much better drinking water. The only problem is that Pepactong is 30
miles from Junction Pool. You would need quite a bit of water
released from Pepactong to cool down any of the Mainstem.

Another thing that dictates the water release is the flow at Montague.
It's not supposed to drop under 1750cfs. So, one day they may release
220cfs then the next day to meet that Montague target, they may
release 1400cfs. The bottom line is that the FUDR is not looking for
anything that hasn't already been given. They're looking to do away
with the Yo-Yo releases that have been consistently coming out of the
dam. They are also looking for less water (on average) that has been
released from the damn (historical average).

I think a MINIMUM RELEASE of 450CFS from Cannonsville will cool the
river possibly down to Stockport. Of course, I'm just guestimating
and may be way off. The current plan is NOT a 250CFS MINIMUM RELEASE!
It's a 250CFS minimum FLOW past Hale's Eddy! This is why it's not
such a great idea. The 250 flow could be 250CFS of 73+- degree water
which of course warms up as it flows downstream. Water temps in
this environment typically heat up 1 degree per mile.

I see you mention something about a 12 month fishery. Nobody is
looking for a 12 month fishery (so to say). What we have now is Part
of April through part of June (approx. 2 months). This is a variable
as I'm sure you know. Then the fishing starts back up in September
and lasts until Oct (another 2 months). If the releases were
consistant (no Yo/Yo releases), we would have a fishing season from
Part of April through October. Considering the variable, this would
extend the fishing season from 3-4 months to 5-6 months.

Beating down the DRBC's throat? Well, I don't know if this will work,
but IMHO, it's better to try something rather than to sit back and do
nothing.

Finally, I don't think it's fair right now to say that the new plan
has been either helpful or non-helpful. I personally think the new
plan of a minimum 225 FLOW, NOT RELEASE, is very harmfull to the
Delaware River System. I think instead of shooting for a 225 flow, we
could have set our standards a bit higher (as a former DRF member) and
shot for a minimum release of 400CFS.

-Regards
-=Paraleptropy=-
http://www.neflyfishing.net
0 Limit,Catch -n- Release


Some, perhaps even most, of the ideas you put forth are fine. For
example, what should DRBC care about whether a release comes from the top
or bottom of the dam? Also, there are ways that they can prevent yo-yo
releases. I have no problem with those parts of the proposal.

Also, I think you're confusing the DEC with the DEP. The DEP is the
city department that deals with the NYC water supply. The DEC is the
state commission that deals with the fishery.

A warm river doesn't necessarily equal a fish kill. Fish find cool
water. They may be harder to find and catch, but they live. Look at the
new regs designed to provide thermal refuge in the Beamoc area, for
example. There are ways to protect fish, even when you can't regulate
flows.

You need to evaluate the new plan with respect to the old plan. Are
conditions, better, worse, or the same. If they're no worse, how can you
call the new policies more harmful than the old?

Last, if you think a 400CFS release will meet all your goals, why are you
asking for a 600CFS release?

Oh, mama...can this really be the end?
 

On 9 Jul 2004 16:06:57 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

paraleptropy paraleptropy wrote in
:


Scott,

The DRBC is in the business of making money. The DEC purchases water
from the DRBC. The DEC does not suggest to the DRBC, "Hey, maybe now
is a good time to release water." They say, "We need water, it's time
for a release." This has nothing to do with the fishery, this has
everything to do with the people who depend on the water from the
river. This leads me to another thing, the DEC doesn't even want the
releases out of Cannonsville. The water from Pepactong is supposedly
much better drinking water. The only problem is that Pepactong is 30
miles from Junction Pool. You would need quite a bit of water
released from Pepactong to cool down any of the Mainstem.

Another thing that dictates the water release is the flow at Montague.
It's not supposed to drop under 1750cfs. So, one day they may release
220cfs then the next day to meet that Montague target, they may
release 1400cfs. The bottom line is that the FUDR is not looking for
anything that hasn't already been given. They're looking to do away
with the Yo-Yo releases that have been consistently coming out of the
dam. They are also looking for less water (on average) that has been
released from the damn (historical average).

I think a MINIMUM RELEASE of 450CFS from Cannonsville will cool the
river possibly down to Stockport. Of course, I'm just guestimating
and may be way off. The current plan is NOT a 250CFS MINIMUM RELEASE!
It's a 250CFS minimum FLOW past Hale's Eddy! This is why it's not
such a great idea. The 250 flow could be 250CFS of 73+- degree water
which of course warms up as it flows downstream. Water temps in
this environment typically heat up 1 degree per mile.

I see you mention something about a 12 month fishery. Nobody is
looking for a 12 month fishery (so to say). What we have now is Part
of April through part of June (approx. 2 months). This is a variable
as I'm sure you know. Then the fishing starts back up in September
and lasts until Oct (another 2 months). If the releases were
consistant (no Yo/Yo releases), we would have a fishing season from
Part of April through October. Considering the variable, this would
extend the fishing season from 3-4 months to 5-6 months.

Beating down the DRBC's throat? Well, I don't know if this will work,
but IMHO, it's better to try something rather than to sit back and do
nothing.

Finally, I don't think it's fair right now to say that the new plan
has been either helpful or non-helpful. I personally think the new
plan of a minimum 225 FLOW, NOT RELEASE, is very harmfull to the
Delaware River System. I think instead of shooting for a 225 flow, we
could have set our standards a bit higher (as a former DRF member) and
shot for a minimum release of 400CFS.

-Regards
-=Paraleptropy=-
http://www.neflyfishing.net
0 Limit,Catch -n- Release


Some, perhaps even most, of the ideas you put forth are fine. For
example, what should DRBC care about whether a release comes from the top
or bottom of the dam? Also, there are ways that they can prevent yo-yo
releases. I have no problem with those parts of the proposal.

Also, I think you're confusing the DEC with the DEP. The DEP is the
city department that deals with the NYC water supply. The DEC is the
state commission that deals with the fishery.

A warm river doesn't necessarily equal a fish kill. Fish find cool
water. They may be harder to find and catch, but they live. Look at the
new regs designed to provide thermal refuge in the Beamoc area, for
example. There are ways to protect fish, even when you can't regulate
flows.

You need to evaluate the new plan with respect to the old plan. Are
conditions, better, worse, or the same. If they're no worse, how can you
call the new policies more harmful than the old?

Last, if you think a 400CFS release will meet all your goals, why are you
asking for a 600CFS release?

Yes, you are right... DEP, not DEC. Got caught up in the moment.

I didn't say that 400cfs will meet my goals. I simply stated that
shooting for a 400cfs RELEASE would have been a much better/nicer
number to shoot for as a minimun rather than a 225CFS FLOW which are
two totally different monsters. Remember, Flow / Release are two
totatally different monsters. I can have a 73+ degree, 225 flow with
Zero cold water release! I'd really like to see a release of 1000cfs
into the river. Can you imagine what the fishing would be like then!
Ok, it will never happen, but it sure would be sweet!

I think the Beamoc plan is terrific, but the Beamoc is a stocked
fishery where as the WB/Main is not. The East is stocked and yes, I
can't argue that there are no stocked fish in either the WB or the
Main... These fish get around, but for the most part of it, the
Delaware fishery as a whole is wild. By the way, I don't think that
Beamoc plan has been approved this year, I think it will be approved
next year.

Ok, New Plan VS old Plan... There was no 'Old' plan. The new plan
calls for 225CFS FLOW past Hale's Eddy. Historically, the flow past
Hale's Eddy has been 640CFS I believe. This 640cfs however, was based
on Yo-Yo releases. The new plan attempts to eliminate the Yo-Yo
releases which sounds good, but now would actually be getting less
water to work with. Then again, you never know what the DRBC is going
to release.

A new idea: Someone recommended that the releases should be based
upon the percentage of water presently in the reservoir. I too think
this is the best way to do things. If there's less water, you get the
percentage based upon less water. Simple as that. When the reservoir
gets to a certain percentange, no water can be released to the
fishery. People first, then then the fish. It's a win/win situation.
-=Paraleptropy=-
http://www.neflyfishing.net
0 Limit,Catch -n- Release

Oh, mama...can this really be the end?
 

On 9 Jul 2004 16:06:57 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

paraleptropy paraleptropy wrote in
:


Scott,

The DRBC is in the business of making money. The DEC purchases water
from the DRBC. The DEC does not suggest to the DRBC, "Hey, maybe now
is a good time to release water." They say, "We need water, it's time
for a release." This has nothing to do with the fishery, this has
everything to do with the people who depend on the water from the
river. This leads me to another thing, the DEC doesn't even want the
releases out of Cannonsville. The water from Pepactong is supposedly
much better drinking water. The only problem is that Pepactong is 30
miles from Junction Pool. You would need quite a bit of water
released from Pepactong to cool down any of the Mainstem.

Another thing that dictates the water release is the flow at Montague.
It's not supposed to drop under 1750cfs. So, one day they may release
220cfs then the next day to meet that Montague target, they may
release 1400cfs. The bottom line is that the FUDR is not looking for
anything that hasn't already been given. They're looking to do away
with the Yo-Yo releases that have been consistently coming out of the
dam. They are also looking for less water (on average) that has been
released from the damn (historical average).

I think a MINIMUM RELEASE of 450CFS from Cannonsville will cool the
river possibly down to Stockport. Of course, I'm just guestimating
and may be way off. The current plan is NOT a 250CFS MINIMUM RELEASE!
It's a 250CFS minimum FLOW past Hale's Eddy! This is why it's not
such a great idea. The 250 flow could be 250CFS of 73+- degree water
which of course warms up as it flows downstream. Water temps in
this environment typically heat up 1 degree per mile.

I see you mention something about a 12 month fishery. Nobody is
looking for a 12 month fishery (so to say). What we have now is Part
of April through part of June (approx. 2 months). This is a variable
as I'm sure you know. Then the fishing starts back up in September
and lasts until Oct (another 2 months). If the releases were
consistant (no Yo/Yo releases), we would have a fishing season from
Part of April through October. Considering the variable, this would
extend the fishing season from 3-4 months to 5-6 months.

Beating down the DRBC's throat? Well, I don't know if this will work,
but IMHO, it's better to try something rather than to sit back and do
nothing.

Finally, I don't think it's fair right now to say that the new plan
has been either helpful or non-helpful. I personally think the new
plan of a minimum 225 FLOW, NOT RELEASE, is very harmfull to the
Delaware River System. I think instead of shooting for a 225 flow, we
could have set our standards a bit higher (as a former DRF member) and
shot for a minimum release of 400CFS.

-Regards
-=Paraleptropy=-
http://www.neflyfishing.net
0 Limit,Catch -n- Release


Some, perhaps even most, of the ideas you put forth are fine. For
example, what should DRBC care about whether a release comes from the top
or bottom of the dam? Also, there are ways that they can prevent yo-yo
releases. I have no problem with those parts of the proposal.

Also, I think you're confusing the DEC with the DEP. The DEP is the
city department that deals with the NYC water supply. The DEC is the
state commission that deals with the fishery.

A warm river doesn't necessarily equal a fish kill. Fish find cool
water. They may be harder to find and catch, but they live. Look at the
new regs designed to provide thermal refuge in the Beamoc area, for
example. There are ways to protect fish, even when you can't regulate
flows.

You need to evaluate the new plan with respect to the old plan. Are
conditions, better, worse, or the same. If they're no worse, how can you
call the new policies more harmful than the old?

Last, if you think a 400CFS release will meet all your goals, why are you
asking for a 600CFS release?

Yes, you are right... DEP, not DEC. Got caught up in the moment.

I didn't say that 400cfs will meet my goals. I simply stated that
shooting for a 400cfs RELEASE would have been a much better/nicer
number to shoot for as a minimun rather than a 225CFS FLOW which are
two totally different monsters. Remember, Flow / Release are two
totatally different monsters. I can have a 73+ degree, 225 flow with
Zero cold water release! I'd really like to see a release of 1000cfs
into the river. Can you imagine what the fishing would be like then!
Ok, it will never happen, but it sure would be sweet!

I think the Beamoc plan is terrific, but the Beamoc is a stocked
fishery where as the WB/Main is not. The East is stocked and yes, I
can't argue that there are no stocked fish in either the WB or the
Main... These fish get around, but for the most part of it, the
Delaware fishery as a whole is wild. By the way, I don't think that
Beamoc plan has been approved this year, I think it will be approved
next year.

Ok, New Plan VS old Plan... There was no 'Old' plan. The new plan
calls for 225CFS FLOW past Hale's Eddy. Historically, the flow past
Hale's Eddy has been 640CFS I believe. This 640cfs however, was based
on Yo-Yo releases. The new plan attempts to eliminate the Yo-Yo
releases which sounds good, but now would actually be getting less
water to work with. Then again, you never know what the DRBC is going
to release.

A new idea: Someone recommended that the releases should be based
upon the percentage of water presently in the reservoir. I too think
this is the best way to do things. If there's less water, you get the
percentage based upon less water. Simple as that. When the reservoir
gets to a certain percentange, no water can be released to the
fishery. People first, then then the fish. It's a win/win situation.
-=Paraleptropy=-
http://www.neflyfishing.net
0 Limit,Catch -n- Release