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Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
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Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:01:08 -0800, "Tom Nakashima" wrote: Tobiko! http://www.origamirestaurant.com/sus...ned_tobiko.jpg guys are making me hungry now. While stationed 15 miles west of Yokohama in the 50s, I ate sushi before it became a popular U.S. dish, and yes, that included the eggs. But my favorite Japanese food was pizza from the Marko Polo Restaurant in Chinatown, Yokohama, with its "mystery" meat on top. It was supposed to be pepperoni, but it only *resembled* pepperoni. Probably pickled lamprey. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
"riverman" wrote in message oups.com... "It make me someone who wants to prevent thousands of cases of suffering per day..." Thousands?? I bet the number is closer to the tens of millions, if you consider all those deep see trawlers. Hmmm, where are they going to get all that ice... Tens Of Millions? Hell the fgure has got to be in the neighborhood of hundreds of billions of suffering, pain filled fishes! I have to side with Soupy on this one. I think he/she/it has a psychotically psychic connection to the fishies. Think about it, all of those fishes with their skulls being bashed-in by all of those Catholic church leaders. And then, suppose just one of those fishies escapes the brutal beating only to be devoured bit by bit by it's own mother?! Oh the HUMIDIY of it all! "...and the lack of support here, and lack of complaints about people like you makes this newsgroup suck." Soupsandwich, I suggest you don't let the swinging door hit you on the ass on the way out. There may be a bug on it that would suffer needlessly. Once again, I have to agree with Soupy. I am giving up this dastardly NG and flyfishing FOREVER! I have already bsted up all of my flyrods and I am presently in the process of untying all of my flyz and will release all of the hooks back to the wilds from which they came, first thing in the morn, immediately after my usual breakfast of raw eggs, steak and baby kittens. Love, Opie --riverman |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
"opie" wrote in message ... "riverman" wrote in message oups.com... "It make me someone who wants to prevent thousands of cases of suffering per day..." Thousands?? I bet the number is closer to the tens of millions, if you consider all those deep see trawlers. Hmmm, where are they going to get all that ice... Tens Of Millions? Hell the fgure has got to be in the neighborhood of hundreds of billions of suffering, pain filled fishes! I have to side with Soupy on this one. I think he/she/it has a psychotically psychic connection to the fishies. Think about it, all of those fishes with their skulls being bashed-in by all of those Catholic church leaders. And then, suppose just one of those fishies escapes the brutal beating only to be devoured bit by bit by it's own mother?! Oh the HUMIDIY of it all! "...and the lack of support here, and lack of complaints about people like you makes this newsgroup suck." Soupsandwich, I suggest you don't let the swinging door hit you on the ass on the way out. There may be a bug on it that would suffer needlessly. Once again, I have to agree with Soupy. I am giving up this dastardly NG and flyfishing FOREVER! I have already bsted up all of my flyrods and I am presently in the process of untying all of my flyz and will release all of the hooks back to the wilds from which they came, first thing in the morn, immediately after my usual breakfast of raw eggs, steak and baby kittens. Love, Opie Hm...... Haste is ever the sworn enemy of reason. About those flies........ Raised in captivity.....doubtless with all the love and affection a dedicated environmentalist (not to mention a proud surrogate parent) could possibly lavish on them......they are simply not equipped, either by nature or by nurture, to deal with a sudden release (in toto or piecemeal) into the wild. I won't try to horrify you or burden you with guilt with grizzly descriptions of the bloody and painful fate awaiting them at the murderous claws and jaws of their enemies (natural or otherwise) just the other side of the picket fence. Fortunately, there is a humane alternative. The Save A Fly foundation is ever ready (despite the swindling funds that always follow on the heels of a languishing economy and governmental cutbacks) to provide them with a good home. You know the address. Wolfgang |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
"Wolfgang" wrote in message ... ...despite the [deleted] funds that always... Oops!.......heh heh....."D"windling......... :) Wolfgang for the foundation. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
So what are you; Anti-egg or Pro-chicken??
--riverman (and which came first?) |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
The fish are already pretty clean, all that biological detergent works
wonders. TL MC |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
wrote in message oups.com... I must thank you all for making my argument that the industry can't effectively self-regulate or even be trusted to provide guidelines for the least painful method of handling fish. I'll be using this in the future. Industry?? Tom |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:52:54 GMT, rw
wrote: Dave LaCourse wrote: On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:01:08 -0800, "Tom Nakashima" wrote: Tobiko! http://www.origamirestaurant.com/sus...ned_tobiko.jpg guys are making me hungry now. While stationed 15 miles west of Yokohama in the 50s, I ate sushi before it became a popular U.S. dish, and yes, that included the eggs. But my favorite Japanese food was pizza from the Marko Polo Restaurant in Chinatown, Yokohama, with its "mystery" meat on top. It was supposed to be pepperoni, but it only *resembled* pepperoni. Probably pickled lamprey. One could hope. We thought it was dog sausage. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
So let me see if I get this right.
You post a bunch of insane crap on a fishing newsgroup, get a less-than-warm response, and then decide that because a bunch of C&R fishermen who think its idiotic to stand waist deep in icy water with a cooler around their neck to anaesthetize some fish they plan on releasing anyway give you a boatload of well deserved crap, that somehow they represent the 'industry' and as such, you'd rather value the opinions of people who you believe will already be more aligned with your point of view in the first place. Got it. Good luck with your political website, and have a nice life. --riverman Oh, and watch the door on the way out. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
So let me see if I get this right.
You post a bunch of insane crap on a fishing newsgroup, get a less-than-warm response, and then decide that because a bunch of C&R fishermen who think its idiotic to stand waist deep in icy water with a cooler around their neck to anaesthetize some fish they plan on releasing anyway give you a boatload of well deserved crap, that somehow they represent the 'industry' and as such, you'd rather value the opinions of people who you believe will already be more aligned with your point of view in the first place. Got it. Good luck with your political website, and have a nice life. --riverman Oh, and watch the door on the way out. Not one whit of a beautiful summation snipped. One comment, you need two coolers of ice (one with water, one without) to do what Barry's asking. -- Frank Reid Reverse email to reply |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
riverman wrote:
So let me see if I get this right. You post a bunch of insane crap on a fishing newsgroup, get a less-than-warm response Be specific about the "insane crap" in my posts. "Less-than-warm" isn't an appropriate description of the responses. and then decide that because a bunch of C&R fishermen who think its idiotic to stand waist deep in icy water with a cooler around their neck to anaesthetize some fish they plan on releasing anyway give you a boatload of well deserved crap When that was mentioned on two occasions, I agreed that the ice technique wouldn't be practical for them. I posted to a fly fishing newsgroup, not a catch and release newsgroup, but more importantly, I posted fishing-related information that might, in some cases, prevent an incredible amount of suffering and be practical. I did have a preconceived notion of people who would fish for sport, but I didn't speak to any of you with that notion in mind, until I learned the way you are from personal experience, and I'm still showing restraint. somehow they represent the 'industry' and as such, you'd rather value the opinions of people who you believe will already be more aligned with your point of view in the first place. You all represent non-commercial fisherman in an unofficial way, which is who this information applies in general, though it doesn't apply to catch and release. I'm absolutely not looking for people who are aligned with my point of view. At this point, I'm looking for civilized experts, by any sane standard (no name calling, no unreasoned insults, etc.) in animal welfare to give me their opinion. If I thought I had enough information to form a solid opinion, I wouldn't seek more. I think heard enough to justify a post here though. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Frank Reid wrote:
One comment, you need two coolers of ice (one with water, one without) to do what Barry's asking. In my original post, I quote Sarah Fox saying: "One thing we did that helped was to "cold-anesthetize" the fish before killing them. This was very easy: We dumped ice in the fish bucket. Because the fish are cold blooded, loss of body heat is not distressing to them, at least in the same sense as it would be to a bird or mammal." Sounds like one bucket is all you need. But I never really "asked" anything in the beginning of this thread. Eventually, I said something like "just put some freaking ice in the bucket" when someone who didn't get it was being sarcastic. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
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Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
schrieb im Newsbeitrag oups.com... SNIP Be specific about the "insane crap" in my posts. "Less-than-warm" isn't an appropriate description of the responses. My dear old fruitcake, if we were infected with your particular strain of insanity, we would not be fishing. Precisely this, some might say extremely fortunate lack of insanity, also prevents us from being at all moved by such nonsense. In other words, most of the eminently sensible people here think you are misguided. Your posts are based on the false premise that fish "suffer". This is physiologically impossible for fish, their brains and nervous systems are not highly developed enough to allow them to "suffer". The only unnecessary suffering going on around here is yours, and you are apparently attempting to inflict a portion of it on us. The simplest and most humane method of killing a fish, as some posters have already explained to you, is to stun it with a blow to the head, it will then either die outright, or suffocate while stunned. Nobody here would be intentionally inhumane to a fish, for the most part they are obsessed with fish, and their welfare. If your goal is to obviate unecessary suffering, then your course of action must be clear. Depart, and take your suffering with you. MC |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
And what bucket would that be?
You still don't get it, do you? --riverman (enjoying this less and less. Its getting close to the wolfing hour, I believe...) |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
"riverman" wrote in message ps.com... And what bucket would that be? You still don't get it, do you? --riverman (enjoying this less and less. Its getting close to the wolfing hour, I believe...) Hm...... That would be about the hour that some of us begin enjoying it more and more, I believe. :) Wolfgang who has a hard time understanding why so many find the lunatic fringe anything other than amusing. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Mike Connor wrote:
Your posts are based on the false premise that fish "suffer". This is physiologically impossible for fish, their brains and nervous systems are not highly developed enough to allow them to "suffer". The PHD I quoted disagrees with you. Maybe you think she's a fake. I guess you think she's wrong about: "As a neurobiologist, I've done quite a lot of work on cold-blooded animals. It is an outright myth that they don't feel pain. They do. I've personally recorded from nerve cells that transmit pain information to the brain, so I know the pain information is there. An animal would certainly have a difficult time surviving if it were unconcerned about bodily injury, so pain pathways are quite necessary in all animals!" Am I so crazy and deserving of all this crap talk for thinking that it might be true? Would you mind providing a reference for your statement that it's impossible for fish to suffer? I've heard people argue that there aren't enough cells in a fish's mouth to feel pain, so I won't argue about that, but I already mentioned the fishing show I saw where they demonstrated clubbing the fish so it doesn't suffer. The simplest and most humane method of killing a fish, as some posters have already explained to you, is to stun it with a blow to the head, it will then either die outright, or suffocate while stunned. But you just said that fish can't suffer, so why club a fish to be humane when they won't suffer anyway? Anyway, that's one explanation I didn't need, since I was the first one to mention the blow to the head, at http://groups.google.com/group/rec.o...5f433eaf2dce39 where I said "I also heard that some people hit the fish in the head to knock it out. I wish SOME kind of humane treatment for fish was regulated." So, yes, that might be acceptable too. Nobody here would be intentionally inhumane to a fish, for the most part they are obsessed with fish, and their welfare. Doesn't seem that way, especially from the first few posts at http://groups.google.com/group/rec.o...61a95c6de5770/ and I'm sure the other posts are just as bad. As for THIS thread, people have been pointing out how hard it is being a fish, getting eaten and all, and that there are better things to do than think about "if a fish would prefer to be thrown in a bucket of ice water." Wasn't there also an outright "I don't care" somewhere in this thread? |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Mike Connor wrote:
Your posts are based on the false premise that fish "suffer". This is physiologically impossible for fish, their brains and nervous systems are not highly developed enough to allow them to "suffer". The PHD I quoted disagrees with you. Maybe you think she's a fake. I guess you think she's wrong about: "As a neurobiologist, I've done quite a lot of work on cold-blooded animals. It is an outright myth that they don't feel pain. They do. I've personally recorded from nerve cells that transmit pain information to the brain, so I know the pain information is there. An animal would certainly have a difficult time surviving if it were unconcerned about bodily injury, so pain pathways are quite necessary in all animals!" The PhD you quoted disagrees with lots of stuff, and a quick browse through his/her website and writings reveals that he/she has lot of personal issues. I could not find any references whatsoever that he/she is a practicing neurologist; seems that he/she spends most of his/her time these days as an activist for Transgendered folks, and trying to look 'oh, so marvelous'. He/she also has lots of articles about feeling 'oh, so fem' and being 'oh so prejudiced against', so my feeling is that your hero is someone who likes to throw themselves in front of trains to make them stop. Posting the initial article to a baitcasting site was exactly that type of thing: "Oh, listen to MEEEE!" he/she said, again and again. And guess what; that's all you're saying too! Besides, you gotta love his/her 'scientific' assurances: everything in the article was opinion and supposition, colored with pretty blatant bias. Let me be specific, in all caps so you can find it: THE ARTICLE STARTED WITH AN EDITORIAL BY THE WEBMASTER/HOST: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ** Those of us who fish have on frequent occasion, wonder to what extent fish feel pain during the process of catching and cleaning them. We certainly are concerned with the survival of those species that we release, taking care to make sure that they swim away to "fight another day." But what about those that make into our coolers? What is the most humane way of dealing with the basic living creatures? For the answer, here are the thoughts of neurobiologist Dr. Sarah Fox, who has done extensive research into the sensory aspects of fish. (NOTE: THE WEBMASTER SAYS "EXTENSIVE RESEARCH"...) By Sarah Fox, Ph.D. (NOW THIS IS OUR SOUPSANDWICH TALKING) As a neurobiologist who has done some work with fish, (NOTE: NOT "EXTENSIVE RESEARCH"..."**SOME** RESEARCH". NOR EVEN A REFERENCE ABOUT WHAT CAPACITY OF RESEARCH. JUST A PLEA TO "LISTEN TO MEEEEEEE. I'M AN EXPERT!!") and as a recent observer of the fishing/cleaning process, I'm quite concerned at some practices (not mentioned in the article) that have been time-honored common practice, at least among sport fishermen. I have a few very well educated thoughts, and I would appreciate your making your readers aware of them somehow. (OH, THIS IS TOO GOOD. A 'RECENT OBSERVER' WHO IS NOW AN EXPERT ON 'TIME HONORED PRACTICES', ONES THAT WEREN'T EVEN MENTIONED IN THE PREVIOUS ARTICLE. WHY BRING THEM UP THEN?? I MEAN, OTHER THAN FOR A CHANCE TO SAY...."LISTEN TO MEEEEEE!! I HAVE A FEW **VERY WELL EDUCATED** THOUGHTS..." My concern isn't so much how to *clean* a fish as it is how and when to *kill* it. (OH, AND NOW ITS NOT EVEN ABOUT WHAT THE INTRO SAID IT WAS ABOUT. "I'D LIKE TO GIVE YOU MY VERY WELL-EDUCATED THOUGHTS ABOUT SOMETHING YOU WEREN'T EVEN TALKING ABOUT, AND ABOUT SOMETHING THAT'S NOT EVEN WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. BUT LISTEN TO MEEEEE!!") I was horrified to watch as one fisherman pulled a live fish out of a bucket and clumsily started scaling it. When he was done with the scaling, he cut the head off. He explained that he needed the head to hold, in order to do the scaling. I pointed to a scaling board (with a tail clamp) about 3 feet from him, suggesting that he could cut the head off first, and *then* scale the fish on the board. He didn't want to do it that way. AND GOD FORBID THAT OUR CLUMSY FISHERMAN COULD DO IT THE WAY HE WANTED. IMAGINE, HE WAS CLEANING A FISH THAT HE HAD CAUGHT, AND SOME TRANSGENDERED INDIVIDUAL LOOKING LIKE FRANK N. FURTER STARTED TELLING HIM HOW TO CLEAN IT RIGHT. I CAN HARDLY IMAGINE THAT OUR GOOD PhD GOT A WARM RESPONSE....SORT OF LIKE WHAT YOU GOT HERE, EH? I WONDER JUST WHAT PROMPTED OUR HERO TO WRITE THAT ARTICLE IN THE FIRST PLACE. HEY, JUST LIKE YOU: HE/SHE GOT A LESS-THAN-WARM RECEPTION, THEN THREATENED TO TAKE IT TO THE PRESS. He said the fish didn't feel anything anyway, because it's a cold-blooded animal. As a neurobiologist, I've done quite a lot of work on cold-blooded animals. It is an outright myth that they don't feel pain. They do. I've personally recorded from nerve cells that transmit pain information to the brain, so I know the pain information is there. An animal would certainly have a difficult time surviving if it were unconcerned about bodily injury, so pain pathways are quite necessary in all animals! PAIN AND NEUROLOGICAL SIGNALS ARE NOT THE SAME THING, AND ANY NEUROLOGIST WITHOUT A "LISTEN TO MEEEEEE" AGENDA KNOWS IT. SURE, FISH HAVE SENSATIONS. HOW CAN OUR DEAR NEUROLOGIST KNOW THAT THOSE SENSATIONS ARE IN FACT, PAIN? THE ANSWER: HE/SHE CAN'T, DESPITE HAVING DONE LOTS OF WORK ON COLD-BLOODED ANIMALS. NOT UNTIL THOSE ANIMALS LEARN TO TALK. My friend "MY FRIEND". OH HOW SWEET. AND GUESS WHAT, "MY FRIEND" IS A SHE. NOT A SMELLY OLD MEANINE LIKE THAT MAN! HE = BAD AND CLUMSY. SHE = GOOD AND HUMANE. AND I'M A PhD, LISTEN TO MEEEEEE!! took a much more humane approach and cut off the head before doing anything else. However, her cut left just enough of the muscle behind that I could see the fish (i.e. its head) writhing for a few minutes thereafter. I had always trusted the folk wisdom that decapitation means instant death and loss of consciousness. Apparently that's a myth too. "APPARENTLY"???? THIS IS A HIGHLY EDUCATED NEUROLOGIST WHO HAS DONE "EXTENSIVE RESEARCH ON FISH", AND HE/SHE IS REJECTING FOLK WISDOM AND REPLACING IT WITH 'APPARENTLYS". SORRY, SOUPY, YOUR HERO IS RAPIDLY LOSING CREDIBILITY AS A SCIENTIST. This would especially be true in a cold blooded animal, as its rate of oxygen consumption (hence, suffocation) is quite low. The head did not die from loss of circulation or neural input. It slowly suffocated (and almost certainly with a great deal of pain). "ALMOST CERTAINLY." WHY, OF COURSE... One thing we did that helped was to "cold-anesthetize" the fish before killing them. This was very easy: We dumped ice in the fish bucket. Because the fish are cold blooded, loss of body heat is not distressing to them, at least in the same sense as it would be to a bird or mammal. OKAY. SO WHY WOULD SUFFOCATION BE DISTRESSING TO THEM THE SAME WAY AS IT IS TO A BIRD OR MAMMAL? There is no thermal setpoint to fight. As the fish cools off, its metabolism slows too, entering into what would be very similar to a hibernation state for a mammal. When it stops moving, it's effectively "anesthetized." In this state, it can be cleaned rather painlessly. Ultimately, though, there is a suffocation issue for the head. When it warms back up, it becomes metabolically active again. OH, THIS IS TOO PRECIOUS. A DECAPITATED HEAD, SEPARATED FROM ITS BLOOD SOURCE AND WITH A SEVERED SPINAL COLUMN WILL REMAIN IN SUSPENDED ANIMATION UNTIL IT IS WARMED UP, THEN IT WILL GO THROUGH DEATH THROES AND FEEL PAIN. I WOULD LOVE OUR HERO/HEROINE TO SHOW SOME SUPPORTING EVIDENCE FOR THIS WILD CLAIM. HMMMM, SOUNDS LIKE A JOB FOR A NEUROLOGIST. ANYONE SEEN ONE? However, there is no question that there would very little pain this way. NO QUESTION AT ALL... I GUESS.....DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT OUR PhD WAS TALKING ABOUT HERE?? JUST A SECOND AGO, HE/SHE SAID IT WOULD FEEL PAIN FROM HAVING ITS HEAD CUT OFF. OH, AND HERE COMES THE RASH OF OPINION. "HIGHLY EDUCATED OPINION" THOUGH. "LISTEN TO MEEEEEEE" Commercially, fish are flung out of the water and allowed to suffocate in the air. While this may seem a difficult fate, it is perhaps a more humane one. "...PERHAPS..." If suffocation is inevitable, either before or after decapitation, then why not suffocate before decapitation and not have to endure the pain of being scaled and cut up? Some fishermen have a practice of pulling their catch out of the water and throwing it directly into an ice chest. This is a method of cold anesthesia, which when combined with suffocation, is probably more humane still. "...PROBABLY..." Perhaps "...PERHAPS..." the ultimate technique in humane fishing would be to throw the catch into a bucket of ice water, where it can still breathe, but where it will quickly be anesthetized. EXCEPT FOR THOSE FISH THAT ACTUALY LIVE IN ICE WATER. AND OUR EVER-SO-EDUCATED NEUROLOGIST FORGOT TO MENTION THE PAIN OF SALT WATER FISH BEING IMMERSED IN FRESH WATER. Then throw it on ice, where it will suffocate slowly during a prolonged state of anesthesia. AND NOW, THE SERMON. THE PETA COMES OUT. It is invitable that we must kill something to live, whether it is a cow or a chicken or a fish or a vegetable. These are all life forms that have their own right to life, just like ours. Inevitably, we can't all live, so one creature must inevitably be consumed by another. None of us should have any problem with that. However, there is no reason, as smart as we are, that we cannot be merciful in the way we gather our food. That is the least we can do for the creatures that lose their lives to sustain ours. LISTEN TO MEEEEE. AND CHECK OUT MY SIG....I'M COOL! Peace, Sarah Fox, Ph.D. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, soupsandwich, you're backing a strange horse here. I don't see that Sarah Fox, PhD has any more credibility beyond that of an anesthetised fish, and that his/her entire post on that fishing page was an effort to push his/her own opinionated and unsubstantiated agenda. Flashing credentials for credibility in the name of science is the worst crime a scientist can commit, so forgive me if I think Sarah Fox, PhD is full of ****. If folks think you are her/him, it might be because you are doing the same "listen to meeeeee" thing here, with the same message. As it has been explained to you a half dozen times, we have given more thought to how fish are treated than you ccan possibly know...we analyze how we handle them to release them, if we keep them I would say we almost universally use a priest to kill (not stun; KILL) them outright and quickly, and we give every effort to resuscitate them carefully when we do release them. No, we don't care about Sarah Fox PhD or her solution. We don't really care if fish feel pain, because we pretty universally conclude that they don't, for the sake of our 'sport'. We aren't an industry, and we could care less about industry standards; we are pretty good at analyzing and debating it ourselves, thanks. The solution that Sarah Fox PhD proposes (using an ice chest to cold-anesthetize them) is so impractical to us as to be gaggingly idiotic, and your insistence that we keep "Listening to youuuuuuuu" is similarly idioticly gagging. Go home now. Oh, and for the edification of all of us, I'd love to know where and how you came across that article in the first place that so inspired you to repost it in several newsgroups. Or are you just practicing your own version of standing in front of trains, saying "listen to meeeeee"? --riverman |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
riverman wrote:
No, we don't care about Sarah Fox PhD or her solution. We don't really care if fish feel pain, because we pretty universally conclude that they don't, for the sake of our 'sport'. Even you didn't conclude that, or at least you didn't explain your reasoning. You gave no information to support the view that fish can't suffer, and you came to no reasoned conclusion one way or the other based on the information that's available. Think there's not enough information available? Fine, I won't argue with you, but doesn't that mean that you don't know whether fish feel pain? You mainly emphasized the fact that Sarah Fox used some less than definitive terms. But I do agree that you might be supporting the "fish feel no pain" side for the sake of your sport. The solution that Sarah Fox PhD proposes (using an ice chest to cold-anesthetize them) is so impractical to us as to be gaggingly idiotic, and your insistence that we keep "Listening to youuuuuuuu" is similarly idioticly gagging. Go home now. You wouldn't need to keep listening to me if you heard me to begin with. Nobody said that an ice chest is practical for people standing in the water or people who catch and release. I've explained that several times already. (I'm thinking "floating ice chest" but I won't say anything...) Oh, and for the edification of all of us, I'd love to know where and how you came across that article in the first place that so inspired you to repost it in several newsgroups. I don't remember, but I don't think I got it from the website you referred to (but didn't specify). It was only in Google's cache of some page when I read it. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
No, you don't remember where you got it, do you. My guess is that, if
you DID find it yourself, you found it he http://tinyurl.com/d6fq9 Interesting what I came across while looking for Captian Mel's page, though: check this out. http://tinyurl.com/abzhd Same type of "Gee I read this elsewhere on the internet" intro. Pure bait. So whats the game, soupsandwich? You really ARE a troll, aren't you? By the way, to get an idea of what you have on your feet and are tracking all over the kitchen floor, do a google search on "do fish feel pain". Then start measuring your hero/heroine's credentials up against the rest of the "industry". Here's one link for you: http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm And again, for a real laugh, do some research on your hero/heroine. Google "sarah fox neurobiology". A Ph.D. in neurobiology, I'm sure. --riverman |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
On 20 Nov 2005 01:27:14 -0800, wrote:
You wouldn't need to keep listening to me if you heard me to begin with. Nobody said that an ice chest is practical for people standing in the water or people who catch and release. I've explained that several times already. (I'm thinking "floating ice chest" but I won't say anything...) Do you recall the information about trout (and other salmonoids) not being bothered in the least by icy water? They are NOT anesthetized by it. Not that, by now, I'd have expected you to have paid attention to verifiable facts. By the by, what's that woman's Ph.D. field? What are her peer reviewed papers? You have obviously never stood / waded in water with a current. You don't have anything in there that the current can grab and take, pulling you under / along with it. Hmm. You go try it. Find a nice trout stream, wade out to your waist with something nice and floatie tied onto you. Then come back and tell us more. But it's more likely you'd find yourself becoming one with the fishes. They do like to nibble on unresisting flesh. Cyli r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels. Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. http://www.visi.com/~cyli email: lid (strip the .invalid to email) |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
riverman wrote:
I have no desire to follow your links without seeing a relevant quote in this thread, especially when you resort to name calling. Why are you calling me names now? Because I didn't find bad stuff about Sarah Fox like you claim to have found? Or are you assuming I posted the article on that other website...as if there's something wrong with that? Isn't that a low standard for calling someone names? Is there a Charter for this newsgroup? |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Stomp, pout.
--riverman |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Cyli wrote:
On 20 Nov 2005 01:27:14 -0800, wrote: Do you recall the information about trout (and other salmonoids) not being bothered in the least by icy water? They are NOT anesthetized by it. Not that, by now, I'd have expected you to have paid attention to verifiable facts. I recall someone saying something like that, but I think their argument was just that the cold water fish can still jump, and there was a misconception that I said cold water would kill the fish. I don't believe the post you're referring to mentioned anesthetizing anything. I don't know how cold the water has to be, or how cold a bucket of ice water is compared to the sea you're talking about, or whether it works for all fish. Maybe it doesn't work at all. I just heard one opinion that it does, which may not be much, but based on it and the "arguments" here, I'm heavily leaning toward believing it. If you don't, fine. I'll look into it more. You'll go fishing. By the by, what's that woman's Ph.D. field? What are her peer reviewed papers? I have no idea. Find a nice trout stream, wade out to your waist with something nice and floatie tied onto you. Then come back and tell us more. But it's more likely you'd find yourself becoming one with the fishes. They do like to nibble on unresisting flesh. If this is about the floating cooler idea that I didn't mention, I don't know. Maybe anchor it? |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
I don't know how cold the water has to be, or how cold a bucket of ice
water is compared to the sea you're talking about, or whether it works for all fish. Maybe it doesn't work at all. I just heard one opinion that it does, which may not be much, but based on it and the "arguments" here, I'm heavily leaning toward believing it. If you don't, fine. Are you on the Kansas Board of Education? "I just heard one OPINION that is does (work)..." As I've mentioned many times before, know your FACTS before you come in and try to change someone's mind, aka educate yourself before you attempt to educate others. You remind me of a religious zealot. Blind to the natural world around him, ignoring anything that doesn't fit into his or her perfect little concept. As a matter of fact, what you're doing is applying the group think of religion to science. -- Frank Reid Reverse email to reply |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
(sigh) Why anchor the cooler, or even HAVE a cooler, if we are
practicing catch and release? And why bother with the cooler if we use a priest for the times we DO kill the fish? And what good is the ice anyway, if we are pulling the fish out of icy water in the first place? You aren't listening at all, are you? --riverman |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
riverman wrote:
(sigh) Why anchor the cooler, or even HAVE a cooler, if we are practicing catch and release? And why bother with the cooler if we use a priest for the times we DO kill the fish? And what good is the ice anyway, Well, it would be someplace to keep the beer. Maybe Barry has a point. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Frank Reid wrote:
Are you on the Kansas Board of Education? "I just heard one OPINION that is does (work)..." As I've mentioned many times before, know your FACTS before you come in and try to change someone's mind Sometimes the purpose of posting something is part of the process of learning the facts, but I'll review what I do know below. You remind me of a religious zealot. Blind to the natural world around him, ignoring anything that doesn't fit into his or her perfect little concept. A minute ago I admittedly didn't know the facts, and now I have a perfect little concept and am blind to something? Here's what we know. Sarah Fox isn't saying not to eat fish or not to fish, or that a hook causes pain, or even that fish contains too much mercury. If she has no reason to believe that cold-anesthesia can reduce suffering, why would she say it does? It's all about reducing pain. Her argument would be a very inefficient way of saving lives of fish, so I don't think that's what's motivating her. Her methods are simple and worth using, at least in some cases. If this thread teaches people nothing else, I hope it teaches people that there's a possibility (I'd say a likelihood) of fish feeling pain, and you shouldn't gut or clean them without at least cutting off the head. Or do whatever you think will cause the least pain. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
There's "A Reference Source for Analgesia & Analgesics in Animals" at
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/awic200002.htm in case anyone's interested. It includes a reference to: Yoshikawa, H.; Ueno, S.; Mitsuda, H., (1989), Short and long-term cold anesthesia in carp. Nippon Suisan Gakkaishi Bulletin of the Japan Society for Science and Fisheries. v. 55 (3), p. 491-498. ISSN: 0021-5392. NAL Call no: 414.9 J274 Descriptors: cold anesthesia, long term, short term, carp. I haven't tried to track it down. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
edited to fit the picture more fully..........
wrote in message I'll review what I do know below. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
schrieb im Newsbeitrag oups.com... Mike Connor wrote: Your posts are based on the false premise that fish "suffer". This is physiologically impossible for fish, their brains and nervous systems are not highly developed enough to allow them to "suffer". The PHD I quoted disagrees with you. Maybe you think she's a fake. I guess you think she's wrong about: No, she apparently disagrees with current scientific opinion. Since your premises are based on what you believe, and not on proven fact, or on logic in view of the known facts, it is quite impossible for anybody else to either prove or refute them. You are wasting your time offering specious argument here. MC |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Mike Connor wrote:
No, she apparently disagrees with current scientific opinion. Since your premises are based on what you believe, and not on proven fact, or on logic in view of the known facts, it is quite impossible for anybody else to either prove or refute them. She does use logic in view of the known facts. I quoted her in the top post of this thread. Maybe you should read it again. Evidence can be scientific and trustworthy and something that's worthy of putting to use even when it's not 100% proven. I can think of no better example than the subject if this thread. Playing it safe is easy and might prevent the suffering of suffocation thousands or millions of times per day. You make it sound like there's scientific evidence that refutes her, like evidence that fish can't suffer. If so, I'd like to hear it. But I guess you're just saying that her evidence that fish feel pain and how to relieve it is lacking. I suggest you rethink the purpose for those clubs (justices?). If you want to do a little research, you can look at some of the studies on fish anesthesia, particularly cold anesthesia. I referenced one earlier today. I'll be looking it up myself eventually. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
A minute ago I admittedly didn't know the facts, and now I have a
perfect little concept and am blind to something? Yes, you are still blind to who your audience is. Who are you addressing here? Commercial fishermen? No. Bait fishermen who take home tons of crappie, no. You are addressing fly fishermen who fish primarily for a COLD WATER FISH (not carp, not bass, not crappie), trout. A fish that thrives in 34-40 degree water. A fish that would be unaffected by the COLD WATER BECAUSE THATS WHAT THEY LIVE IN!!. Also, you are addressing folks who RELEASE THE FISH THEY CATCH!!! We strive not to kill them. I've not kept a trout in almost 20 years. You are talking to the wrong people as this is a fly fishing group. Now, there is one group that may be interested in your theories. rec.outdoors.fishing.bass Try it. What do you have to loose? So, now do you have a CLUE AS TO WHAT YOU'VE BEEN IGNORING???? -- Frank Reid Reverse email to reply |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Frank Reid wrote:
there is one group that may be interested in your theories. rec.outdoors.fishing.bass Try it. What do you have to loose? So, now do you have a CLUE AS TO WHAT YOU'VE BEEN IGNORING???? Some people here have been engaging me in this conversation and had misconceptions that needed correcting, and despite some people's claims that most of you are catch and release fishermen, I still have no reason to believe that these ideas don't relate to the title of this newsgroup--rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. Who knows who's lurking out there. If you're one of the apparent majority who this doesn't relate to, and you're not interested, find another thread to read. But you're probably correct that rec.outdoors.fishing.bass is a more appropriate newsgroup for this. Could someone define fly fishing for me? |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
...I still have no
reason to believe that these ideas don't relate to the title of this newsgroup--rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. ...Could someone define fly fishing for me? I think your last question answers your first, in more ways than one. --riverman |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
wrote in message oups.com... ...Who knows who's lurking out there.... Well, we may be a bit slow, bubba, but we're getting a pretty good idea long about now. :) Wolfgang who, let it not be denied, is having a hard time not splitting a gut over the notion that adults apparently take this rag seriously. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Frank Reid wrote:
You are addressing fly fishermen who fish primarily for a COLD WATER FISH (not carp, not bass, not crappie), trout. A fish that thrives in 34-40 degree water. A fish that would be unaffected by the COLD WATER BECAUSE THATS WHAT THEY LIVE IN!! http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/ntrout.asp "It's simple: cold-water fish such as trout and salmon thrive in streams with temperatures of 50 to 65 degrees Fahrenheit." |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
riverman wrote:
...I still have no reason to believe that these ideas don't relate to the title of this newsgroup--rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. ...Could someone define fly fishing for me? I think your last question answers your first, in more ways than one. Maybe you should have given me that reason or answer that I needed instead of being sarcastic. I don't think need it now because saw that "fly fishing" is in the dictionary, and it means what I'd already said I knew about it. Nothing about cold or warm water or about catch and release. It's just that I'm still getting criticism about posting this stuff in this newsgroup, so I wanted to confirm that I was right. But you all know each other's fishing preferences better than me and I admit that there might not be many people here who would find it practical or necessary to ice a fish. |
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