OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 09:16:05 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
... You either don't, can't, or won't read, you
simply react to what you presume is said. I never "ranked" on "working people"
and if you think stating the fact that some people simply are not suited to
being anything more than "labor" (such as a "burger-flipper") is somehow
"radical extremism," you are among those people not suited to rational thought
or discussion.

You either don't, can't or won't read your own posts to roff.
Nobody has to "presume" that you said of "burger flippers":

"For some, *even many*, that type of job is all they are, or
*ever will be*, suited to do." [emphasis added]

Um, OK - which of the words is confusing you...moreso than words normally seem
to confuse you...?

If that's not ranking on the American working class it'll sure
as hell do for now.

Um, OK - IOW, if it doesn't _actually_ say what you say it says, you'll just
pretend it says it _and_ twist it or take it out of context, too...(emphasis
added)...

The American worker churned out more tanks,
jeeps, airplanes, battleships and aircraft carriers than any
other country on earth during WWII. Almost all state of the art
manufacturing jobs at the time. Given education, opportunity
and a fair wage the American worker is the equal of any worker
on the planet.

OK, fair enough. That means that an assembly line worker in the US should be
making about $25-30K a year today, and a laborer about 1/2 to 2/3s of that, or
12.5K to 20K a year, with few, if any benefits (and since you're comparing them
to all workers on the planet - assuming you mean Earth and not your home planet
of Headupuranus - they ought to be able to live pretty darned well on about half
that). They should live in a small home (and if she do choose to buy, they must
have at least 10% down, and if they lose the house, tough) or apartment without
AC or other "luxuries," own, at most, one car, eat out on _rare_ occasions,
etc., etc. In fact, if "workers" would live the way their 1940s counterparts
did, the whole system might be better off (and if those at the top of the chain
did, as well).

Your obvious contempt for the American worker

See above...and below...

isn't what I would
call "radical extremism", I'd call it mainline Republican ignorance
and arrogance.

Well, sure - you call everything that makes sense and disproves all of your
guilty white liberal ideas "Republican ignorance"...

HTH,
R

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

who cares what he says, its what he does that matters.....what
is he hiding and why?



" Oh, hell, I applaud a fair bit of what he _says_. My issues with
him are what
he does, or, what he fails to do at any given moment versus what he
previously
said he'd do...."



..




On Apr 18, 9:43*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:33:18 GMT, "Tom Littleton" wrote:

wrote in message
.. .

snipped
I think what I'm trying to work through is that I feel both you and Ken are
vastly overgeneralizing. I do not feel that we NEED have a nation with a
glut of folks capable of
"burger flipping" as a skillset.

I didn't say, nor did I mean that we need a nation of burger-flippers (or any
other single vocation). *I simply said that for some people, it's about as far
as they are capable of going, just like some are best suited to be doctors,
engineers, scientists, teachers, ditch-diggers, laborers, managers, soldiers,
etc., etc. - if you prefer, some simply aren't capable of (or even desire to)
producing more than about $15-20K a year of "work" (and some less than that).

Nor, do I agree with Ken that we are
overwhelmingly a nation of overachieving production machines. There is, as
always a continuum, but we have, IMO, lowered the overall skill levels over
the past few decades. For whatever reason, we have dumbed down basic
education, made higher education(especially in technical and scientific
fields) less regarded by both students and the institutions themselves, and
in so doing have done the national economy no real good.

I can tell you and it'll make Ken's head explode - we've created a large subset
of the population that feels they are entitled to things to which they simply
aren't entitled. *It started black folks, who really didn't even ask for it -
they simply wanted what they were most certainly entitled to: the right to
succeed or fail on their own merits rather than the color of their skin. *But
"liberals" went _way_ overboard - affirmative action, reverse discrimination,
etc. *And it spread to all sorts of "disadvantaged" people. *We've bred a
multi-racial subset who thinks they have a right to demand "fairness" as they
define it. *As you well know, life isn't fair. *Sometimes, even decent people
get hurt, and it just isn't the responsibility of the general public to cure,
fix, or mitigate everything. It just isn't possible to give everybody
everything. *

Therefore, I applaud what Obama seems to be saying:

Oh, hell, I applaud a fair bit of what he _says_. *My issues with him are what
he does, or, what he fails to do at any given moment versus what he previously
said he'd do. *I'm enough of a realist to understand campaign promises, but on
not on the core things which were, by his own statements, "exempted" from the
typical promises.





short term stimulus
followed by a bit of belt tightening and a national focus on education and
innovation. Sure, it's political rah-rah, to an extent, but at least it
attempts to start getting the notion over to the people that this is no easy
ride that someone else does for you.
As for the way commerce was conducted in the 1950-75 timeframe, I do see
relevant ideas that seem to have been lost. Why, for instance, were
corporations perfectly profitable, and focused on the long term, when CEO's
and Presidents made around 20-30 times the entry level professional's
salary? When did it seem prudent to pay the leadership an average of *150
times entry? These weren't, for years on end, ever regulated matters, yet
were considered fair practice. I'm not claiming any rights or wrongs here,
so much as wondering where it all got off the track, with a shrinking
industrial production, widening gap between workers and exective's
compensation, lowering of educational standards and unregulated greed.
I do suspect it's going to as messy as making sausage getting back onto
sounder footing.......

Fair enough...

TC,
R



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tom- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On Apr 19, 8:34*am, wrote:
Snippy snip snip

Let's see; where to start. . .

1. At one time or another you've argued against any system that would
make health care affordable and available to all the American
families, even while the problems in the current system helped destroy
American companies, jobs, and families.

2. You've argued against the social safety net, (social security,
unemployment compensation, injured worker's compensation) that is paid
for by the working and middle-class of this country in a system of
self insurance.

3. You've argued against the housing support and mortgage support
systems that enabled average people, and particularly veterans to
purchase and own their own homes, and give them an economic stake in
the private economy.

4. You've argued the petty missteps of hard won civil rights progress
that took this country from a war torn slave holding country, to a
relatively peaceful multi racial society in a little more than a
century.

5. You've argued against the right of public citizens to impose limits
on the nature of the exploitation of energy and mineral resources and
public lands held for the common benefit of the American people.

6. You've argued against workers rights to organize, collectively
bargain and freely withhold their labor.

7. And recently the list goes on to include defending lender predation
and consumer fraud, and restriction of educational opportunity.

Does anybody see a pattern here? I do. Its the same pattern that some
deeply anti-democratic, deeply indoctrinated folks have pushed since
the beginning of the country. Its the classic pattern of extremists
like the Coors family, who, despite the opportunities and wealth they
have been afforded by their work and the people of the United States,
have viciously opposed virtually EVERY step of social, economic and
racial progress made by the American people. The American people have
the right, both individually and collectively, to seek to improve
their lives. That is not communism, thats democracy.

Sorry but your thinly shrouded advocacy of peonage, and primitive
19Th century eugenics as organizing principals for the United States
does tend to **** off people who have lived at least some of their
lives outside the bubble. To pretend that your extremist views
constitute a respectable political viewpoint is a stretch.

Dave
And Rick, IMHO if you think most Republicans hold your beliefs you are
mistaken.

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:16:27 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
You either don't, can't or won't read your own posts to roff.
Nobody has to "presume" that you said of "burger flippers":

"For some, *even many*, that type of job is all they are, or
*ever will be*, suited to do." [emphasis added]

Um, OK - which of the words is confusing you...moreso than words normally seem
to confuse you...?
If that's not ranking on the American working class it'll sure
as hell do for now.

Um, OK - IOW, if it doesn't _actually_ say what you say it says, you'll just
pretend it says it _and_ twist it or take it out of context, too...(emphasis
added)...

Well, I think it says many American workers are suited only for
working in a fast food joint and further, that is all they will
ever be suited to do.

Except for the "American" and the use of "many" instead of "some, even many,"
that's exactly what it says. And I have no problem with the addition of
"American," whether it actually means "American" or simply those in the US,
because it is true of the world population - some folks, even many, are simply
not suited to be or capable of more than basically unskilled labor, be it
"flipping burgers," dishing up curries, pushing a dim sum cart, putting fish and
chips on newspaper, or whatever. It says nothing about the entire populace of
"America," the US or the world. Moreover, I clearly said that others are suited
to other levels of work, skilled and unskilled. If it is your position that
every single person in the US is suited to be a neurosurgeon (or a skilled labor
"machine" of superhuman production), I'd offer that someone suited only to
flipping burgers has been poking around in your skull...actually, I'd offer that
even if it isn't your position...

If that's not what it means you can't
write worth a ****. Don't blame the reader for your lack of
writing skills.

I don't blame "the reader" for anything...hell, I don't even "blame" you for
your lack of comprehension skills...

The American worker churned out more tanks,
jeeps, airplanes, battleships and aircraft carriers than any
other country on earth during WWII. Almost all state of the art
manufacturing jobs at the time. Given education, opportunity
and a fair wage the American worker is the equal of any worker
on the planet.

OK, fair enough. That means that an assembly line worker in the US should be
making about $25-30K a year today, and a laborer about 1/2 to 2/3s of that, or
12.5K to 20K a year, with few, if any benefits (and since you're comparing them
to all workers on the planet - assuming you mean Earth and not your home planet
of Headupuranus - they ought to be able to live pretty darned well on about half
that). They should live in a small home (and if she do choose to buy, they must
have at least 10% down, and if they lose the house, tough) or apartment without
AC or other "luxuries," own, at most, one car, eat out on _rare_ occasions,
etc., etc. In fact, if "workers" would live the way their 1940s counterparts
did, the whole system might be better off (and if those at the top of the chain
did, as well).

Non sequitur.

Er, no. You used US workers during WW2 as an example, much of which was
unskilled or semi-skilled work. I am simply pointing out that what you, and
many such US workers, want today is simply ridiculous by historical standards,
even recent history, and that recent history in the US shows that people can
live perfectly decent, happy lives on much less than that to which you and
modern workers feel they are automatically entitled.

First you claim many American workers are suitable only for
flipping burgers and not capable of working an assembly line
or being a laborer.

IMO, "flipping burgers" is used as a catch-all term for simple, unskilled labor,
so sure, someone capable of flipping burgers is also capable of dropping a
basket of fries into grease and hitting a timer button or, if physically
capable, myriad other such types of "unskilled labor." But the fact remains
that some, even many, simply aren't suited to or capable of more.

Now you want to argue about standards of
living.


Your obvious contempt for the American worker

See above...and below...

isn't what I would
call "radical extremism", I'd call it mainline Republican ignorance
and arrogance.

Well, sure - you call everything that makes sense and disproves all of your
guilty white liberal ideas "Republican ignorance"...

Uh huh.

Glad you agree...

HTH,
R

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:59:12 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:

On Apr 19, 8:34*am, wrote:
Snippy snip snip

Let's see; where to start. . .

1. At one time or another you've argued against any system that would
make health care affordable and available to all the American
families, even while the problems in the current system helped destroy
American companies, jobs, and families.

No, I haven't.

2. You've argued against the social safety net, (social security,
unemployment compensation, injured worker's compensation) that is paid
for by the working and middle-class of this country in a system of
self insurance.

No, I haven't.

3. You've argued against the housing support and mortgage support
systems that enabled average people, and particularly veterans to
purchase and own their own homes, and give them an economic stake in
the private economy.

No, I haven't.

4. You've argued the petty missteps of hard won civil rights progress
that took this country from a war torn slave holding country, to a
relatively peaceful multi racial society in a little more than a
century.

Some of them, yes.

5. You've argued against the right of public citizens to impose limits
on the nature of the exploitation of energy and mineral resources and
public lands held for the common benefit of the American people.

No, I haven't.

6. You've argued against workers rights to organize, collectively
bargain and freely withhold their labor.

Not exactly, no.

7. And recently the list goes on to include defending lender predation
and consumer fraud, and restriction of educational opportunity.

No, I haven't.

Does anybody see a pattern here?

Yes, I do - you're rarely correct on what you assume to be my position on most
things.

I do.

I didn't doubt it in the least.

Its the same pattern that some
deeply anti-democratic, deeply indoctrinated folks have pushed since
the beginning of the country. Its the classic pattern of extremists
like the Coors family, who, despite the opportunities and wealth they
have been afforded by their work and the people of the United States,
have viciously opposed virtually EVERY step of social, economic and
racial progress made by the American people.

The American people have the right, both individually and collectively, to seek to improve
their lives.

Which is generally what I've always said, except I've said that all people,
"American" or otherwise, have that right.

That is not communism, thats democracy.

Actually, it's neither.

Sorry but your thinly shrouded advocacy of peonage, and primitive
19Th century eugenics as organizing principals for the United States
does tend to **** off people who have lived at least some of their
lives outside the bubble. To pretend that your extremist views
constitute a respectable political viewpoint is a stretch.

Sorry, but your blatantly visible Daffy Duckness does nothing but amuse me -
what it does for or to others, you'll have to ask them.

Dave

And Rick, IMHO if you think most Republicans hold your beliefs you are
mistaken.

Unlike you, I make no presumption to know what beliefs "most Republicans" hold,
so I don't further presume to know whether their beliefs mirror my own. I do
know that I am not a Republican nor do I consider myself one, and based upon
what I do know of stated "Republican beliefs," I suspect that while there is
some commonality, there are also major differences. But neither you or I have
any way to know.

HTH,
R

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On Apr 19, 11:01*am, wrote:

You know, I have sometimes wondered why a food service worker would
spit in a particular patron's food. Now I think I am understanding it
a little better.

Dave

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On Apr 19, 11:18*am, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:59:12 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 19, 8:34*am, wrote:
Snippy snip snip

Let's see; where to start. . .

1. At one time or another you've argued against . . .

No, I haven't.

SNIP

No, I haven't.

SNIP.

No, I haven't.

SNIP

Some of them, yes.

SNIP

No, I haven't.

SNIP

Not exactly, no.

SNIP

No, I haven't.


Oh you most surely have. Maybe in your mind some of that verbal
mincing gives you the deniability of a mediocre prep school debater,
but in plain speaking terms you have argued each and every item I
listed and a whole lot more cocktail Fascist claptrap. Own it. It's
yours.

Dave

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:20:24 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:

On Apr 19, 11:01*am, wrote:

You know, I have sometimes wondered why a food service worker would
spit in a particular patron's food. Now I think I am understanding it
a little better.

Well, that's nice...Ken's burger-flipping brain surgeon has another "patient"...

H o p e t h i s h e l p s (...I typed that slow for you...),
R

Dave

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:38:39 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:

On Apr 19, 11:18*am, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:59:12 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 19, 8:34*am, wrote:
Snippy snip snip

Let's see; where to start. . .

1. At one time or another you've argued against . . .

No, I haven't.

SNIP

No, I haven't.

SNIP.

No, I haven't.

SNIP

Some of them, yes.

SNIP

No, I haven't.

SNIP

Not exactly, no.

SNIP

No, I haven't.


Oh you most surely have. Maybe in your mind some of that verbal
mincing gives you the deniability of a mediocre prep school debater,
but in plain speaking terms you have argued each and every item I
listed and a whole lot more cocktail Fascist claptrap. Own it. It's
yours.

Sure, Daffy, whatever you say....

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On Apr 19, 11:42*am, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:20:24 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 19, 11:01*am, wrote:

You know, I have sometimes wondered why a food service worker would
spit in a particular patron's food. Now I think I am understanding it
a little better.

Well, that's nice...Ken's burger-flipping brain surgeon has another "patient"...

H o p e *t h i s *h e l p s (...I typed that slow for you...),
R


"Phlegm?"
"No Sir, thats just a little Okra in there."
" Chef Billy Bob thought you like Okra Mr. Dean."
"He's real sorry bout that misunderstanding last week."
"He says you going to really like this here dick puddin."

Dave

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
The American worker churned out more tanks,
jeeps, airplanes, battleships and aircraft carriers than any
other country on earth during WWII.

that was two generations ago, and last I checked, our supply of tanks, jeeps
and aircraft carriers is pretty good.
Airplanes, we still make, but I think battleships are in less demand. Still,
with the proper national emphasis on education, we might get back to a
competetive position.
Tom

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
Well, I'd point out that what you and many wealthy folks want today
is simply ridiculous by historical standards, even recent history,
and that recent history in the US shows that people can live perfectly
decent, happy lives on much less than that to which you and modern
plutocrats feel they are automatically entitled.

he did, Ken, state that the limitation on personal lifestyles might be
helpful at ALL ends of the scale. That said, this whole thing is veering off
into 'oughta be' and 'should've been' type stuff. Both of you make valid
points: Rick about the current status quo, and you regarding the potential.
I don't see much in the was of suggestion how we get from one to the other.
Tom

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On 2009-04-19, Tom Littleton wrote:

Airplanes, we still make, but I think battleships are in less demand.

Cuz they're useless!

Still,
with the proper national emphasis on education, we might get back to a
competetive position.

With "proper national emphasis on education", we may not be saddled with
morons like you!

nb

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

Tom Littleton wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
Well, I'd point out that what you and many wealthy folks want today
is simply ridiculous by historical standards, even recent history,
and that recent history in the US shows that people can live perfectly
decent, happy lives on much less than that to which you and modern
plutocrats feel they are automatically entitled.

he did, Ken, state that the limitation on personal lifestyles might be
helpful at ALL ends of the scale. That said, this whole thing is veering off
into 'oughta be' and 'should've been' type stuff. Both of you make valid
points: Rick about the current status quo, and you regarding the potential.
I don't see much in the was of suggestion how we get from one to the other.

Well, one of us advocates the "innovate and educate" approach while
the other appears to be suggesting that the American working class
ought to get used to living happily flipping burgers for $20K a year.

If Rick is going to advocate wholesale downsizing in the US standard
of living my response is "you first".

--
Ken Fortenberry

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

"notbob" wrote in message
...
With "proper national emphasis on education", we may not be saddled with
morons like you!

nb

this from an adult that uses the word 'cuz'?? Nice touch.
Please, feel free to come out from your anonymous cover, grow a pair, and
debate the matter with me. Idiot.
Tom

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On 2009-04-19, Tom Littleton wrote:


Please, feel free to come out from your anonymous cover.......

Is that the universal retort from this group? The best you can muster? OK.
My name is John Smith. Dolts!

nb

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On 19-Apr-2009, notbob wrote:

Path:
border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!np eer03.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!post01.iad.highwinds-media.com!newsfe03.iad.POSTED!800a5453!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly
From: notbob
Subject: OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
References:













Organization: ....little, if any
Message-ID:
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (Linux)
Lines: 9

Please, feel free to come out from your anonymous cover.......

Is that the universal retort from this group? The best you can muster?
OK.
My name is John Smith. Dolts!

nb

Another lazy beautiful day fishing on Roff
Reading flames is like reading the water
The fish are in slack water off the seams and behind rocks

( no intent at ontinuing the flame --nb )
Just a political comment.

Leadbelly

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

On 2009-04-20, Fred wrote:

( no intent at ontinuing the flame --nb )
Just a political comment.

Understood. I actually went fishing today. No luck. I'll try again
tomorrow, not that it matters to this group. ;)

nb

OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
Like I said, you obviously travel in different circles. You have a
very low opinion of the American working class. The American working
folks I know are the most productive on earth. Give 'em a job and
they'll do it as well, or better, than any other workers on the planet.

Yeah, they don't work for $20 a week or let their 10 year olds work
a 60 hour week for eight bucks but they *are* suited for more than
burger flipping. Obama has the right idea; innovate and educate.

Seems to be a broad brush you paint the people with. If all were such
great workers, why do we have 5 generation welfare families? I worked
while going to university to pay my way. Why it took me twice as long.
But I also worked 70 hour weeks as an engineer and running a constuction
equipment leasing company at the same time. 5 days of engineering and
1.5 days a week of leasing company fixing. And paying employees. We
have highschool graduates flipping burgers that could not hold much more
than that as a job. They can not read well, math challenged. Hell lots
of college students seem to be pretty ignorant also these days. ...

Well, you were once a college student and you seem pretty ignorant.
Not much has changed, I guess.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Oh, words cut to the bone. Ignorant seems to be an apt description of most
of your postings here.