Question about loop leaders?
 

Riverman writes:

No reason to let this thread die out just because the question that wasn't
asked has been answered!

Well, the question that *was* asked has been answered.

As far as hinging is concerned, I have never experienced it. But/however, I
have heard talk about improperly installed mesh loop connectors (the Chinese
finger trap thingies that Orvis loves) having a hinge effect. If there is not
a continuity from line to leader, a hinge could occur. If you use the mesh
loops, ensure that the fly line is inserted all the way to the loop part of the
connector. Then it won't hinge.

Question about loop leaders?
 

riverman wrote:

The real problems I experience with leader loops a
1) The knots seem to gather all the crud in the world. If I'm retrieving
deep through mush, the leader comes up all stringy with the stuff. If I'm
dryflying through floaties, same story. Cutting the tags close doesn't seem
to solve the problem, as the gunk gets caught up in the little loops
themselves.

2) When I'm stringing up my rod, or if I accidentally reel in too much line
(usually when I have a long leader on), its very difficult to pull the line
back out through the tip top. I have to hold the rod out at arm's length and
the line out at arms length in the other direction, and wiggle the line
until the tag on the perfection loop hops through. I have read about people
snapping their tips doing this, and that always worries me.

Bingo. I'll add two more complaints about loops:

(1) No matter how small you make the loops, there will be a section of
the leader with twice the density of the rest of the leader. This can't
be good for delicate casting and presentation.

(2) Once the loops are snugged up into a square knot, I find it just as
difficult and time consuming to change loop connections as it is to tie
a blood knot in heavy mono, if not more so.

Now
that I've been fishing with Vaughan, I've discovered that I love them nail
knots! I don't even do surgeon's knots anymore.

I don't understand that, riverman. A nail knot is used to connect the
butt section to the fly line. No one of my acquaintance (with the
possible exception of wayno) would ever use a surgeon's knot for that.
The two knots -- nail and surgeon's -- have completely different
applications. The surgeon's is used to attach tippet.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Question about loop leaders?
 

riverman wrote:

The real problems I experience with leader loops a
1) The knots seem to gather all the crud in the world. If I'm retrieving
deep through mush, the leader comes up all stringy with the stuff. If I'm
dryflying through floaties, same story. Cutting the tags close doesn't seem
to solve the problem, as the gunk gets caught up in the little loops
themselves.

2) When I'm stringing up my rod, or if I accidentally reel in too much line
(usually when I have a long leader on), its very difficult to pull the line
back out through the tip top. I have to hold the rod out at arm's length and
the line out at arms length in the other direction, and wiggle the line
until the tag on the perfection loop hops through. I have read about people
snapping their tips doing this, and that always worries me.

Bingo. I'll add two more complaints about loops:

(1) No matter how small you make the loops, there will be a section of
the leader with twice the density of the rest of the leader. This can't
be good for delicate casting and presentation.

(2) Once the loops are snugged up into a square knot, I find it just as
difficult and time consuming to change loop connections as it is to tie
a blood knot in heavy mono, if not more so.

Now
that I've been fishing with Vaughan, I've discovered that I love them nail
knots! I don't even do surgeon's knots anymore.

I don't understand that, riverman. A nail knot is used to connect the
butt section to the fly line. No one of my acquaintance (with the
possible exception of wayno) would ever use a surgeon's knot for that.
The two knots -- nail and surgeon's -- have completely different
applications. The surgeon's is used to attach tippet.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Question about loop leaders?
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...

Riverman writes:

No reason to let this thread die out just because the question that wasn't
asked has been answered!

Well, the question that *was* asked has been answered.

As far as hinging is concerned, I have never experienced it. But/however,
I
have heard talk about improperly installed mesh loop connectors (the
Chinese
finger trap thingies that Orvis loves) having a hinge effect. If there is
not
a continuity from line to leader, a hinge could occur. If you use the
mesh
loops, ensure that the fly line is inserted all the way to the loop part
of the
connector. Then it won't hinge.


Ahhhh, I see. I agree that the place a hinge could occur would be in the
connector part of the loop, not between the loops. If the line is not
inserted all the way, then yes, the woven loop material is considerably more
flexible than the fly line. I figured folks were talking about the hinge
occuring where the two loops connect, and that's not very possible if the
two loops are seated correctly.

--riverman

Question about loop leaders?
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...

Riverman writes:

No reason to let this thread die out just because the question that wasn't
asked has been answered!

Well, the question that *was* asked has been answered.

As far as hinging is concerned, I have never experienced it. But/however,
I
have heard talk about improperly installed mesh loop connectors (the
Chinese
finger trap thingies that Orvis loves) having a hinge effect. If there is
not
a continuity from line to leader, a hinge could occur. If you use the
mesh
loops, ensure that the fly line is inserted all the way to the loop part
of the
connector. Then it won't hinge.


Ahhhh, I see. I agree that the place a hinge could occur would be in the
connector part of the loop, not between the loops. If the line is not
inserted all the way, then yes, the woven loop material is considerably more
flexible than the fly line. I figured folks were talking about the hinge
occuring where the two loops connect, and that's not very possible if the
two loops are seated correctly.

--riverman

Question about loop leaders?
 

"rw" wrote in message
m...
riverman wrote:

Now that I've been fishing with Vaughan, I've discovered that I love
them nail knots! I don't even do surgeon's knots anymore.

I don't understand that, riverman. A nail knot is used to connect the butt
section to the fly line. No one of my acquaintance (with the possible
exception of wayno) would ever use a surgeon's knot for that. The two
knots -- nail and surgeon's -- have completely different applications. The
surgeon's is used to attach tippet.

Well, you're right to be confused by that because I just suffered from KNFU
(knot name fu*k up). I don't use nail knots instead of surgeon's knots; I
use opposing Uniknots, also called Grinners. And seeing as how this thread
is about nail knots, that reply was a complete nonsequitor. :-(

But anyway.... :-)
....when I tie on a tippet, I used to use surgeon's knots. But the surgeon's
knots never left the two tippets 'in line'; one always came off at a
slightly skewed angle. If I was tying different strengths of tippet, the
ensuing leader was all skewed, with little 'elbows' everywhere. And if my
backcast brushed a hill behind me, I would inevitably discover that had I
burned my line when tightening because the damn leader would break right at
one of the knots.

Now, I tie on my tippets like this: I keep 4 or 5 spools of tippet hanging
on a leash on my vest. I'll pull off the end of the 3x and the 5x, then tie
them together with two Grinners. Then, I pull off several feet of the 3x,
snip it off and tie it onto my leader butt with the same knots. Then I pull
off several feet of the 5x and snip that off, and tie on the fly.

This means if I drop the tippet while tying it on, I don't lose it in the
grass or river. Also, I can 'build' a tapered leader right there on my vest
without getting all the line tangled. And the opposing Uniknots line up in a
straight line, the tag ends are almost invisible, its a much smoother knot
when passing through the tiptop, and I think its stronger.

--riverman

Question about loop leaders?
 

"rw" wrote in message
m...
riverman wrote:

Now that I've been fishing with Vaughan, I've discovered that I love
them nail knots! I don't even do surgeon's knots anymore.

I don't understand that, riverman. A nail knot is used to connect the butt
section to the fly line. No one of my acquaintance (with the possible
exception of wayno) would ever use a surgeon's knot for that. The two
knots -- nail and surgeon's -- have completely different applications. The
surgeon's is used to attach tippet.

Well, you're right to be confused by that because I just suffered from KNFU
(knot name fu*k up). I don't use nail knots instead of surgeon's knots; I
use opposing Uniknots, also called Grinners. And seeing as how this thread
is about nail knots, that reply was a complete nonsequitor. :-(

But anyway.... :-)
....when I tie on a tippet, I used to use surgeon's knots. But the surgeon's
knots never left the two tippets 'in line'; one always came off at a
slightly skewed angle. If I was tying different strengths of tippet, the
ensuing leader was all skewed, with little 'elbows' everywhere. And if my
backcast brushed a hill behind me, I would inevitably discover that had I
burned my line when tightening because the damn leader would break right at
one of the knots.

Now, I tie on my tippets like this: I keep 4 or 5 spools of tippet hanging
on a leash on my vest. I'll pull off the end of the 3x and the 5x, then tie
them together with two Grinners. Then, I pull off several feet of the 3x,
snip it off and tie it onto my leader butt with the same knots. Then I pull
off several feet of the 5x and snip that off, and tie on the fly.

This means if I drop the tippet while tying it on, I don't lose it in the
grass or river. Also, I can 'build' a tapered leader right there on my vest
without getting all the line tangled. And the opposing Uniknots line up in a
straight line, the tag ends are almost invisible, its a much smoother knot
when passing through the tiptop, and I think its stronger.

--riverman

Question about loop leaders?
 

Willi & Sue wrote:

riverman wrote:


That's what I do. I find it works well. Nail knots with heavy tippet are
easy to tie.

That should read blood knot. Nail knots are never easy IMO.

Willi

Question about loop leaders?
 

Willi & Sue wrote:

riverman wrote:


That's what I do. I find it works well. Nail knots with heavy tippet are
easy to tie.

That should read blood knot. Nail knots are never easy IMO.

Willi

Question about loop leaders?
 

"Willi & Sue" wrote in message
...


That's what I do. I find it works well. Nail knots with heavy tippet are
easy to tie.

That should read blood knot. Nail knots are never easy IMO.

Really? I find nail knots in lighter material pretty simple: I just run the
lines parallel, make 3 or 4 large loops, pass the line back through them,
adjust and tighten. In stiff material, using a thin straw makes it very
simple. We all talked about that a few months ago, iirc.

Blood knots, otoh, are a freaking nightmare!

But what do you mean; you use a blood knot to attach the butt to the line,
or the butt to the leader?
--riverman