slow down summer ... whoa, Whoa
 

"rw" wrote in message
m...
Bob Weinberger wrote:
As I stated in my original post on this subject, the causes are far more
complex than can be adequately covered here.

In my neck of the woods I don't believe it's all that complicated. Fire
suppression has resulted in huge overgrown forests of small lodgepole,
crowded together like sticks. Over the past decade they've been decimated
by pine bark beetles. The trees have died and the needles have mostly
fallen off, so the "red trees" aren't as noticeable as before, but there's
a huge fuel load waiting to burn.

Large, healthy trees in more-or-less mosaic conditions (which I believe is
the natural condition here) don't seem nearly as affected by the beetles
as the small, crowded trees.

Aside from some modest logging, these wilderness forests haven't been
"managed" in any way, that I can tell, except by fire suppression.

I think we need active management to return the forest to a healthy state.
I think the Forest Service should build fire breaks and access roads for
controlled burns. They have a plan to do just that, but lack of money and
the bureaucracy is holding it up.

In the meantime, we spend mucho bucks on fighting big fires.

Well I know how you physical sciences types like answers to be simple and
straight forward, however in the biological sciences answers are rarely
simple and straightforward. For instance those thick Lodgepole pine stands
you are talking about are "usually" the result of previous fire rather than
the result of fire suppression. The "normal" cycle in the Lodgepole pine
type is: an overdense stand of Lodgepole followed by bark beetle and/or fire
followed by another overdense Lodgepole stand, ad infinitum. Only in those
areas of Lodgepole pine where other species can be competetive (in some
sites, Lodgepole pine is the only species adapted to the site) can the cycle
be broken. In those cases it requires the ABSENCE of fire for long enough
for the other species to mostly take over the site when the relatively short
lived Lpp declines (often following a bark beetle outbreak, if fire is
absent for long enough for the heavy fuel load of dead Lodgepole to
decompose). And the above only applies to the Lodgepole pine ecotype. The
dynamic is quite different in the Ponderosa Pine ecotype and still different
in the Grand Fir ecotype ( two other predominant ecotypes in "your part of
the world"). And BTW the predominant species that is present on a site NOW
does not necessarily determine what ecotype the site is in. That is
determined by the site parameters that dictate what plant association is
climax for the site in the absence of management actions. And that is still
further complicated by such things as in the wetter end of the Ponderosa
Pine ecotype where the true climax, in the absence of the "normal" cycle of
periodic light burns, is Doug-fir or True Firs, but the fire climax is
Ponderosa. Also in "your part of the world" much of the mosaic pattern that
is present is a result of significant areas that can support (except during
unusually wet cycles) only grass or xeric shrubs, and areas with a high
water table (wet meadows), interspersed with areas that have the right
amount of moisture/soil depth to support tree growrth.

Bob Weinberger La Grande, OR

slow down summer ... whoa, Whoa
 

Bob Weinberger wrote:
"rw" wrote in message
m...

Bob Weinberger wrote:

As I stated in my original post on this subject, the causes are far more
complex than can be adequately covered here.

In my neck of the woods I don't believe it's all that complicated. Fire
suppression has resulted in huge overgrown forests of small lodgepole,
crowded together like sticks. Over the past decade they've been decimated
by pine bark beetles. The trees have died and the needles have mostly
fallen off, so the "red trees" aren't as noticeable as before, but there's
a huge fuel load waiting to burn.

Large, healthy trees in more-or-less mosaic conditions (which I believe is
the natural condition here) don't seem nearly as affected by the beetles
as the small, crowded trees.

Aside from some modest logging, these wilderness forests haven't been
"managed" in any way, that I can tell, except by fire suppression.

I think we need active management to return the forest to a healthy state.
I think the Forest Service should build fire breaks and access roads for
controlled burns. They have a plan to do just that, but lack of money and
the bureaucracy is holding it up.

In the meantime, we spend mucho bucks on fighting big fires.


Well I know how you physical sciences types like answers to be simple and
straight forward, however in the biological sciences answers are rarely
simple and straightforward.

I realize that you feel that you must be the expert on this subject, and
that you think its all too complicated for someone as naive and ignorant
as I, but the situation is very clear. The large, dense stands of mature
lodgepole pine in the SNRA are a result of a century of fire
suppression. I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. That's the
position of the Forest Service.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

slow down summer ... whoa, Whoa
 

JR wrote:
Bob Weinberger wrote:
... The
specific reasons for the changes in stocking levels are too complex to
explain here, but if anyone is truly interested I will explain them
via email, or you could take your request to alt.forestry where it
would be answered by myself or another forester.

God, Bob, honestly, you should charge us all some sort of fee for
regularly popping in and cleansing this nut house with infusions
of straight-forward sanity.

Oh please, sanity my ass. Bob is a diehard Swiftboater and
Swiftboaters should be charged double roff's annual membership
fee.

And I wonder how much of Bob's "forestry" he got from watching
CNN six years before CNN went on the air. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

slow down summer ... whoa, Whoa
 

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:54:58 -0700, rw
wrote:

Bob Weinberger wrote:
"rw" wrote in message
m...

Bob Weinberger wrote:

As I stated in my original post on this subject, the causes are far more
complex than can be adequately covered here.

In my neck of the woods I don't believe it's all that complicated. Fire
suppression has resulted in huge overgrown forests of small lodgepole,
crowded together like sticks. Over the past decade they've been decimated
by pine bark beetles. The trees have died and the needles have mostly
fallen off, so the "red trees" aren't as noticeable as before, but there's
a huge fuel load waiting to burn.

Large, healthy trees in more-or-less mosaic conditions (which I believe is
the natural condition here) don't seem nearly as affected by the beetles
as the small, crowded trees.

Aside from some modest logging, these wilderness forests haven't been
"managed" in any way, that I can tell, except by fire suppression.

I think we need active management to return the forest to a healthy state.
I think the Forest Service should build fire breaks and access roads for
controlled burns. They have a plan to do just that, but lack of money and
the bureaucracy is holding it up.

In the meantime, we spend mucho bucks on fighting big fires.


Well I know how you physical sciences types like answers to be simple and
straight forward, however in the biological sciences answers are rarely
simple and straightforward.

I realize that you feel that you must be the expert on this subject, and
that you think its all too complicated for someone as naive and ignorant
as I, but the situation is very clear. The large, dense stands of mature
lodgepole pine in the SNRA are a result of a century of fire
suppression. I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. That's the
position of the Forest Service.

Here's the thing, brother - you ain't stupid, so think...

Hey, ymmv,
R

slow down summer ... whoa, Whoa
 

"rw" wrote in message
m...
I realize that you feel that you must be the expert on this subject, and
that you think its all too complicated for someone as naive and ignorant
as I, but the situation is very clear. The large, dense stands of mature
lodgepole pine in the SNRA are a result of a century of fire suppression.
I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. That's the position of the Forest
Service.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

No Steve I don't think you are naive and ignorant in general, but you have
amply demonstrated that you have no understanding of Lodgepole pine ecology.
Lodgepole with its thin bark is almost never thinned by an underburn and
most any fire in a pure or near pure Lodgepole stand tends to be a stand
replacement fire. Because most Lodgepole pine has serotinous cones (the
cones are retained unopened on the tree and only open and disperse their
seeds after being exposed to high heat), the seeds from many years of cone
crops are all released at once following a fire. Often tens of thousands of
seeds/acre are released following a fire and they have high germination
rates in the mineral soil exposed by the fire. Unless the seedlings are
thinned by man, animals (rare except in peak snowshoe rabbit years), some
unusual weather conditions, or some unusually agressive brush out-competes
the young seedlings, the resulting Lpp stand will be super dense and will
remain so until the next fire and/or Mt. Pine Beetle outbreak kills all or
most of the stand and the cycle starts over.

And as for the position of the Forest Service:
1. Are you sure that you understand what their position is? i.e are they
referring to Lodgepole pine specifically or are they making general comments
about forest conditions, that in your neck of the woods are really only
applicable to the Ponderosa Pine and Dry Mixed conifer types (DF, WL, PP, &
GF/WF with some Lpp in the mix.).

2. Check to see if your local ranger district has anyone left who has actual
training and experience in forest ecology. Many FS Districts no longer have
anyone on staff with such training or experience. They no longer require
people holding "Forester" positions to actually have forestry or
silviculture or forest ecology training - many of them have had a few
general biology courses at best


Bob Weinberger La Grande,OR

slow down summer ... whoa, Whoa
 

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:33:56 GMT, "Bob Weinberger"
wrote:


And as for the position of the Forest Service:
1. Are you sure that you understand what their position is? i.e are they
referring to Lodgepole pine specifically or are they making general comments
about forest conditions, that in your neck of the woods are really only
applicable to the Ponderosa Pine and Dry Mixed conifer types (DF, WL, PP, &
GF/WF with some Lpp in the mix.).

2. Check to see if your local ranger district has anyone left who has actual
training and experience in forest ecology. Many FS Districts no longer have
anyone on staff with such training or experience. They no longer require
people holding "Forester" positions to actually have forestry or
silviculture or forest ecology training - many of them have had a few
general biology courses at best

Now hang on a minute, here...are you seriously suggesting that someone
with a _US Government agency_ might not know what they are doing...?
Come on, now, Bob, that's just crazy talk...

HTH,
R
I mean, they're from the government...they're here to help...


Bob Weinberger La Grande,OR

slow down summer ... whoa, Whoa
 

Bob Weinberger wrote:
"rw" wrote in message
m...

I realize that you feel that you must be the expert on this subject, and
that you think its all too complicated for someone as naive and ignorant
as I, but the situation is very clear. The large, dense stands of mature
lodgepole pine in the SNRA are a result of a century of fire suppression.
I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. That's the position of the Forest
Service.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.


No Steve I don't think you are naive and ignorant in general, but you have
amply demonstrated that you have no understanding of Lodgepole pine ecology.
Lodgepole with its thin bark is almost never thinned by an underburn and
most any fire in a pure or near pure Lodgepole stand tends to be a stand
replacement fire.

"Fire is a principal factor in the establishment and structure of most
lodgepole pine forests. Historically, the frequency of fires varied
every 60 to 500 years and their severity resulted in a diverse mosaic of
age classes and species mixtures in Idaho's lodgepole pine forest types.
In the Northern Rockies province, severe fires typically have created
large expanses of even-aged, pure or mixed species stands of lodgepole
pine. In the Southern Rockies Province, low-intensity surface fires
often have maintained multi-aged stands in which climax species were
unable to develop. The Middle Rockies have a good representation of both
conditions. Fire suppression efforts, however, have reduced the
diversity of age classes and forest structure."

Idaho Forest Products Commission

So clearly you're the one oversimplifying by claiming that all lodgepole
forests react the same way to fire in all places. Note the last sentence.

"An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until
he knows almost everything about almost nothing."

Anonymous

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

slow down summer ... whoa, Whoa
 

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 06:51:20 -0700, rw
wrote:

Bob Weinberger wrote:
"rw" wrote in message
m...

I realize that you feel that you must be the expert on this subject, and
that you think its all too complicated for someone as naive and ignorant
as I, but the situation is very clear. The large, dense stands of mature
lodgepole pine in the SNRA are a result of a century of fire suppression.
I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. That's the position of the Forest
Service.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.


No Steve I don't think you are naive and ignorant in general, but you have
amply demonstrated that you have no understanding of Lodgepole pine ecology.
Lodgepole with its thin bark is almost never thinned by an underburn and
most any fire in a pure or near pure Lodgepole stand tends to be a stand
replacement fire.

"Fire is a principal factor in the establishment and structure of most
lodgepole pine forests. Historically, the frequency of fires varied
every 60 to 500 years and their severity resulted in a diverse mosaic of
age classes and species mixtures in Idaho's lodgepole pine forest types.
In the Northern Rockies province, severe fires typically have created
large expanses of even-aged, pure or mixed species stands of lodgepole
pine. In the Southern Rockies Province, low-intensity surface fires
often have maintained multi-aged stands in which climax species were
unable to develop. The Middle Rockies have a good representation of both
conditions. Fire suppression efforts, however, have reduced the
diversity of age classes and forest structure."

Idaho Forest Products Commission

So clearly you're the one oversimplifying by claiming that all lodgepole
forests react the same way to fire in all places. Note the last sentence.

Yeah, nothing avoids oversimplification like a single sentence from a
commission...I defy one to find or even invent a better way to fully
explain a complex issue...

"An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until
he knows almost everything about almost nothing."

Ah...well, if it helps at all, I, speaking only for myself mind you,
consider you ROFF's foremost expert on Mac stuff...

Anonymous

Ya know, I always wonder about this dude (or dudette, as the case may
be...I'll bet their first name is Chris or Pat or something...) ...I
mean, sometimes, he or she writes pretty good stuff, and then, other
times, I think that he or she ought to be flat-out ashamed to have his
or her name on that ****...

Never Anonymous,
R

slow down summer ... whoa, Whoa
 

"rw" wrote in message
m...

The paragraph you qouted and your misinterpretation of it is an outstanding
example of the dangers of trying to oversimplify the role of the fire in the
environment in order to explain it to the public.

"Fire is a principal factor in the establishment and structure of most
lodgepole pine forests. Historically, the frequency of fires varied every
60 to 500 years and their severity resulted in a diverse mosaic of age
classes and species mixtures in Idaho's lodgepole pine forest types.

True, but the scale of the mosaic varies tremendously, and in most cases,
the size of the pure or almost pure Lodgepole elements in the mosaic are
those that burned on a 60-90 year cycle. Those areas that
have a much longer fire return interval almost never support Lodgepole
stands for that period, and it is precisely the ABSENCE of fire for long
intervals that allowed other species to dominate those sites. Get one of
your Forest Service friends to try to show you a Lodgepole pine stand that
is over 250 years old - not an individual tree (though good luck even
finding that), but a stand of 10 acres or more that is mostly lodgepole pine
and over that age.

In the Northern Rockies province, severe fires typically have created
large expanses of even-aged, pure or mixed species stands of lodgepole
pine.

Yep. and guess what, at the time the above was written, almost all those
large expanses of even-aged pure or mixed species stands of lodgepole pine
got their start in the early 20th century - before the advent of intensive
fire suppression. Indeed, it was the 1910 fires in N. Idaho and W. Montana
(which alone accounted for the start of most of those stands) which was the
major impetus for the fire suppression programs we followed for the rest of
the 20th century. The pure Lodgepole stands that started in that era are
now over-ripe for a beetle epidemic and/or fire to start them over. Our fire
suppression efforts weren't a significant cause of their overstocked
condition, they simply delayed the inevitable. Yes, in those stands where
Lodgepole pine was not the major component of the stand, fire suppression
was indeed oftena major factor in most of those stands staying over-dense.
In those situations low ground fires would have, in most cases, killed out
most of the Lodgepole ( as well as most of the Grand/White Fir) element of
the stands, thus thinning out the stands.

In the Southern Rockies Province, low-intensity surface fires often have
maintained multi-aged stands in which climax species were unable to
develop. The Middle Rockies have a good representation of both conditions.
Fire suppression efforts, however, have reduced the diversity of age
classes and forest structure."

All very true, but it has little to do with pure or near pure Lodgepole pine
stands. The Middle and Southern Rockies have large components of Ponderosa
Pine and Dry Mixed Conifer types, and that is where fire suppression has
indeed reduced the diversity of age classes and structure. Meanwhile the
vast majority of pure to near pure stands of Lodgepole pine in those ares
continue to be over stocked - with or without fire -, and most stay that way
for the 60 - 100 years between fire return events.

Idaho Forest Products Commission

So clearly you're the one oversimplifying by claiming that all lodgepole
forests react the same way to fire in all places. Note the last sentence.

Unlike you, I diligently try to avoid speaking in absolutes when talking
about biological processes. I may not always succeed, but I always try.
Take note of all the qualifiers contained in my explainations and tell me
how any careful reader of even average ability could come to the conclusion
that I was making blanket statements "that all lodgepole
forests react the same way to fire in all places." Or perhaps its
unrealistic of me to believe you are capable of such, given your past
performance careful reading and comprehension of complex issues that
don't have the absolute relationships that you are used to in physics.


"An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until he
knows almost everything about almost nothing."

Anonymous

Bob Weinberger La Grande,Or

slow down summer ... whoa, Whoa
 

Bob Weinberger wrote:

Unlike you, I diligently try to avoid speaking in absolutes when talking
about biological processes.


You seem (to me) to be saying that a century of fire suppression has had
essentially no or very little effect on the the lodgepole forests of
the SNRA in central Idaho.

Aside from flying in the face of common sense, and being a rather
absolutist position, it contradicts other "experts" in the field.

What we're seeing is a tremendous build-up of fuel due to to beetle
infestation, and the natural course of this fuel load burning being
thrwarted by fire suppression. It's been happening for a long time.
Eventually, something is going to give.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.