|
|
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
"Maybe you should have given me that reason or answer that I needed
instead of being sarcastic." Oh, I'm sorry. My bad. I thought you had at least a modicum of understanding about fly fishing, since you were posting to a fly fishing newsgroup. --riverman |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Stan Gula wrote:
wrote: snipped for the sake of the fish children Wowee, wow, this is mind boggling. I'm thinking blinding headaches are involved somehow. I vote for a helmet lined with tin-foil. Chuck Vance (and the voices) |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
|
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
If you're one of the apparent majority who this doesn't relate to, and you're not interested, find another thread to read.
You imperious little twerp. You will not tell me what to read, nor will you tell me what to reply too. Interested, yes. I'm always interested when some person tries to spread FUD (fear, uncertainty and despair) about anything. Most publications call it propaganda. No, you will never convince the members of this forum that your point of view is correct. Unfortunately, you may give an idea to someone who's not formed an opinion based upon fact and reasoning. That's why I have attempted reasoned arguments and clarification of points. All of which you have ignored. You have not the sense that God gave a goose. But you're probably correct that rec.outdoors.fishing.bass is a more appropriate newsgroup for this. I sent you there because its a trap. For the most part, those people will shred you limb from limb. I tell you this now, because you're going to ignore this and go there anyway. It should be fun. Could someone define fly fishing for me? Fly fishing is more than a technique, it is a concept. It has been more than adequately defined in this thread. Then again, you're lack of cognitive skills has caused you to ignore the information given to you. Barry, many folks here tried to help you. They were attempting to explain the love of their sport and quarry. You chose, either purposefully or through a base inability to comprehend, to ignore their input. Well, now its time to ignore you. EOT (and since you choose not to follow links I won't even mention where you could find the meaning of this) for me. Frank Reid |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message ... On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:01:08 -0800, "Tom Nakashima" wrote: Tobiko! http://www.origamirestaurant.com/sus...ned_tobiko.jpg guys are making me hungry now. While stationed 15 miles west of Yokohama in the 50s, I ate sushi before it became a popular U.S. dish, and yes, that included the eggs. But my favorite Japanese food was pizza from the Marko Polo Restaurant in Chinatown, Yokohama, with its "mystery" meat on top. It was supposed to be pepperoni, but it only *resembled* pepperoni. It was the only pizza joint in Yokohama. Pretty funny, I'll ask my wife about Marko Polo's. Yokohama is a port in Japan and back then had a large Military Base, so I'm not surprised they had restaurants catered to Americans. My wife is from Yokohama, she actually introduced me to Japanese foods; sushi and sashimi, and I introduced her to Pizza's and Calzoni's. Her father was in the service and stationed in Yokohama, so she had her education on the base. It was rare for me to meet a gal from Japan who didn't have a Japanese accent and could speak english better than I. Her first job was on the military base working in the kitchen, and her biggest mistake was washing the huge 10 year old (never washed) metal coffee percolator with soap. She told me they wanted to put her on the firing squad. -tom |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Hi Barry; Making any new friends? Convincing anyone of anything? g
And you posted a study without even reading it first?? Wow, how.....scientific....of you. FYI, its about how to anesthetise fish, NOT about whether or not they feel pain. And its about using CO2, not ice. Also FYI, I already provided you a link with an article (peer reviewed, cross referenced, published in a professional journal and all that) that states that fish can not feel pain because of the makeup of their brains. If you'd really like to know the evidence, then read it. But your statement above tells me that you actually percieve Sara Fox, Ph.D's ("I have a PhD.....in SCIENCE!") opinion as 'evidence', and actually being scientific, and logical. Whether or not fish feel pain is, like most science, debated, but not by Sara Fox, PhD. His/her entire article was busybody opinion...incredibly uninformed opinion....a lot like what you are presenting here. Gee, do you research your political website as well as you researched this? Or do you just let your emotions run you in circles there, too? --riverman BTW, its called a PRIEST. Its been spelled out for you at least a half dozen times, and it works a hell of a lot better than either an icebucket or a killfile. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
"riverman" wrote in message ups.com... Hi Barry; Making any new friends? Convincing anyone of anything? g Barry, I'll have to agree with rw. Most of the folks in this group are pretty friendly. If you're coming here to make waves or pick an argument, this probably isn't the newsgroup for you. I've found this newsgroup to be very useful as many of them are experts in the field of fly-fishing. You can use this newsgroup to gain knowledge to your advantage if fly-fishing is what you're interested in. Many of these fine fisherman might think twice the next time you ask for advice. fwiw, -tom |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
riverman wrote:
And you posted a study without even reading it first?? Wow, how.....scientific....of you. I only posted a reference because I don't know where to find the study yet. Don't you think it's good to offer people information like that about what's being discussed? I made no claims about the study. It's nitpicking like that (in addition to childish name calling) that made me not care about your link. FYI, its about how to anesthetise fish, NOT about whether or not they feel pain. And its about using CO2, not ice. Quote the part about the CO2 if you read it. Where did you find the article? Does it even matter what they used for the cold anesthesia? Ice is cold too. Here's the reference again: ----------- Yoshikawa, H.; Ueno, S.; Mitsuda, H., (1989), Short and long-term cold anesthesia in carp. Nippon Suisan Gakkaishi Bulletin of the Japan Society for Science and Fisheries. v. 55 (3), p. 491-498. ISSN: 0021-5392. NAL Call no: 414.9 J274 Descriptors: cold anesthesia, long term, short term, carp. ----------- Here's one with an abstract: ----------- Yoshikawa H, Ueno S, Mitsuda H (1989) Short- and long-term cold-anesthesia in carp. Nippon Suisan Gakkaishi/ Bulletin of the Japanese Society of Scientific Fisheries. 55(3):491-498 The efficacy of cold anesthesia in the transportation of live fish was evaluated using carp (Cyprinus carpio) acclimated at 23°C. The carp could be safely maintained in an anesthetic state for 5 h in water kept at 4°C and in the anesthetized or sedated state for 24 h at 8-14°C. Some anesthetized carp showed signs of convulsion when they received external stimuli, and bled mainly from gills. Hemorrhage became distinct with the decrease in temperature and the duration of the cold treatment. The sedated carp showed no such excitement and bleeding. The sedated state is considered to be adequate for transportation, regardless of the anesthetic time; 14°C seems to be the optimal temperature when the carp are acclimated to 23°C. ----------- Also FYI, I already provided you a link with an article (peer reviewed, cross referenced, published in a professional journal and all that) that states that fish can not feel pain because of the makeup of their brains. Ok, I followed the link ( http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm ). I see no indication that it was peer reviewed or published in a professional journal, and it doesn't say that fish can't feel pain. See, this is why I want specifics before I spend my time following your links. It was published on a website about "Conserving, protecting and restoring Colorado's coldwater fisheries." [Others here need to throw some specifics in their attacks to] Whether or not fish feel pain is, like most science, debated... That's enough for me to not skin a fish alive, which was one of the things I want people to know. It took over 100 posts for someone to admit that and to post any kind of reference. Pathetic. BTW, its called a PRIEST. Its been spelled out for you at least a half dozen times, and it works a hell of a lot better than either an icebucket... I'm not so sure about that, unless you kill the fish swiftly with it, and then it serves a different purpose than the ice. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Ok, I followed the link ( http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm
). I see no indication that it was peer reviewed or published in a professional journal, and it doesn't say that fish can't feel pain. See, this is why I want specifics before I spend my time following your links. It was published on a website about "Conserving, protecting and restoring Colorado's coldwater fisheries." Actually, that was a summary article. The original was posted in 'Review of Fisheries Science' and was much more extensive in nature. Although it only took a few seconds to find it, I know you won't actually chase it down, so here is a link to the original: http://www.animal-health-online.de/drms/rosefish.pdf I can see that this is going nowhere, and will certainly continue to do so. You go ahead and pretend to want to learn anything, and I'll let others here pretend to try and illuminate you. Have a nice day. --riverman |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
"riverman" wrote in message ups.com... ...You go ahead and pretend to want to learn anything, and I'll let others here pretend to try and illuminate you.... Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! Wolfgang aw, c'mon coach......put me in......i can DO it! |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 06:54:33 -0600, Conan The Librarian
wrote: I'm absolutely not looking for people who are aligned with my point of view. At this point, I'm looking for civilized experts, by any sane standard (no name calling, no unreasoned insults, etc.) You're new to ROFF and Usenet, aren't you? Chuck Vance This is one of the most restrained and civilized threads / responses I've ever seen on the 'Net to a blatant troll. I suspect we've only been kind to Sally / Barry because he / she can spell and form complete sentences. And we're just settling into the start of cabin fever. Toward spring, there's no telling how those of us in the frozen north would respond to him / her. Cyli r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels. Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. http://www.visi.com/~cyli email: lid (strip the .invalid to email) |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:51:11 -0600, "Wolfgang"
wrote: "riverman" wrote in message oups.com... ...You go ahead and pretend to want to learn anything, and I'll let others here pretend to try and illuminate you.... Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! Wolfgang aw, c'mon coach......put me in......i can DO it! Goferit. Light up her / his life. May I watch? Cyli r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels. Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. http://www.visi.com/~cyli email: lid (strip the .invalid to email) |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
riverman wrote:
I can see that this is going nowhere, and will certainly continue to do so. Don't pile up the incorrect statements so high and everything will be fine. I looked through some of the article. The first thing I noticed was the emphasis that fish are highly evolved and different kinds of fish differ greatly from each other and "Human-centered perspectives on fishes are inappropriate because the evolutionary histories of fishes and mammals have been separate for about 400 million years." Later, the article compares fish brains with human brains, and despite several "as humans do" qualifications, comes to a fairly strong conclusion that fish don't suffer, though it leaves the possibility open and suggests what would be needed by a future study in order to demonstrate that fish could suffer. One or two informal reviews of the article seem to agree that fish probably don't suffer, despite a stress response. I haven't searched for any formally published rebuttal or new studies. Some things that come to mind are comments I've heard on how little we know about the brain, the discovery a few years ago of a new bone found in the human face that we never knew about due to an unusual autopsy technique being used (wouldn't you have figured x-rays or something would catch that?), and of course, the extraordinarily immature response of the fishing community (judging by this thread and the other pain thread I linked to) and outright refusal to consider that fish might feel pain (except for those who said they don't care) without knowing of anything to support that belief (despite this study, which was finally referred to 100+ posts later). So, can we now say that fish don't experience any unpleasant feelings? I wouldn't assume that, and I'd use practical methods of anesthetizing any fish I caught, unless I was releasing it, though I wouldn't fish for sport at all. I certainly wouldn't skin or gut it when it was alive. But now you can all point to that study and the argument that fish feel pain is weaker, and in the future, people like me might think you're all merely rude rather than have thoughts of the days when it was debated whether black people were human and when the methods of medieval punishment were considered appropriate. You should all be proud. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
wrote:
mindless ramble snipped , and in the future, people like me might think you're all merely rude rather than have thoughts of the days when it was debated whether black people were human and when the methods of medieval punishment were considered appropriate. You should all be proud. Wow. People poke fun at your posts because of the lack of content, and you compare them to racists and torturers? Right there you lost any chance of convincing anybody that you're worth reading. At least you didn't bring up the Nazis. -- Stan Gula http://gula.org/roffswaps (wondering if his head hurts all the time, or just when he's thinking) |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Stan Gula wrote:
wrote: mindless ramble snipped The vast majority of that "mindless ramble" was either a direct quote or summary of information published in peer reviewed journals, and of webpages that SUPPORT the conclusions in the study that fish probably don't feel pain. Part was: "the extraordinarily immature response of the fishing community (judging by this thread and the other pain thread I linked to) and outright refusal to consider that fish might feel pain (except for those who said they don't care) without knowing of anything to support that belief (despite this study, which was finally referred to 100+ posts later)." Feel free to refute it. Wow. People poke fun at your posts because of the lack of content, and you compare them to racists and torturers? Right there you lost any chance of convincing anybody that you're worth reading. At least you didn't bring up the Nazis. The reason people here remind me of racists who argued that blacks weren't human is because they have no consideration for the possible pain that can be caused by words or actions, and they're basing their ideas on bad science (in the case of the racists) or even no science that they could quote (in the case of this newsgroup). In the case of fish, it's people's actions that matter, but the words matter because they influence others to act (treat fish) like them. They're like torturers because the possibility of suffering isn't important to them. Nazis--same thing. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Tim J. wrote:
Tweeeeeet! Time out! We'll need a ruling from the Rules Committee on this one, 'cause it's fairly tangential. Does this envoke Godwin's Law? That's a cool law. I can't say that I disagree with it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law Anyway, I wanted to clarify that I don't see someone as evil just because they fish before doing science research. I can picture some guy who's been fishing since he was a kid, and now he fishes with his family and they all have a good time, and now for the first time some guy (me--yes, I'm a guy) mentions something horrible that he might be responsible for. He knows he's not a horrible person, so he gets defensive or maybe feels guilty or whatever. If it never crossed your mind that your doing something bad, or if you heard somewhere that it's not bad, then that's not enough for me to get on your case (hmmm...how badly did I get on anyone's case anyway?). But if someone (me) says, "I heard this, and it seems true, or it might be true, so I think we should do things this way to possibly prevent something horrible" and then he gets crap from just about everyone, I'd like to hear something that justifies the crap. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
|
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
wrote in message oups.com... Tim J. wrote: Tweeeeeet! Time out! We'll need a ruling from the Rules Committee on this one, 'cause it's fairly tangential. Does this envoke Godwin's Law? That's a cool law. I can't say that I disagree with it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law Really? It's not all that difficult if you approach it the right way. Try this: write it out on a sheet of paper and then simply read the words aloud. Voila! Works every time. Anyway, I wanted to clarify that I don't see someone as evil just because they fish before doing science research. Well, that's mighty generous of you. You have just singlehandedly saved literally billions of people from being evil. I can picture some guy who's been fishing since he was a kid, and now he fishes with his family and they all have a good time, Yeah, I can picture that too. It's actually kinda pretty. Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if we could have that blown up and posted in public places all over the world.....sort of a reminder of what life COULD be? and now for the first time some guy (me--yes, I'm a guy) Um......o.k.,......we'll take that on faith.....for now. mentions something horrible that he might be responsible for. Dang! I KNEW it was too good to be true! O.k., maybe we'd better hold off on the posters till we get this all sorted out. :( He knows he's not a horrible person, so he gets defensive or maybe feels guilty or whatever. Much as we'd like to believe that he's not a horrible person, I'm afraid that there's just no getting around it. We have it from an unimpeachable source that he is in fact inherently evil. If you think about it, this is also made obvious by the fact that he feels guilty and gets defensive. After all, these reactions make no sense whatsoever if he's innocent.......right? If it never crossed your mind that your doing something bad, Never is a long time....but, DO go on. or if you heard somewhere that it's not bad, There HAVE been rumors to that effect. then that's not enough for me to get on your case Um.......I think we'll reserve judgment on that one for just now. (hmmm...how badly did I get on anyone's case anyway?). Oh, you DEFINITELY need to work on that. Sensitive as we all are, I don't think you've quite brought anyone to tears yet. But if someone Who? (me) Oh. says, "I heard this, and it seems true, or it might be true, so I think we should do things this way to possibly prevent something horrible" and then he gets crap from just about everyone, I'd like to hear something that justifies the crap. I see. Well, we're going to have to think about that for a while. We'll get back to you just as soon as we can. Um......how long can you hold your breath? Oh, and by the way, if simply finding someone who appears to agree with an a priori assumption qualifies as "doing science research" I've got some colleagues who are going to be VERY disappointed to learn that they have expended so much time and effort for so many years in doing it the hard way. Wolfgang |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
"Cyli" wrote in message ... ...Light up her / his life. May I watch? Kinky. :) Yeah, go ahead. Wolfgang |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
sorry, until one "animal" starts to be concerned about management of
resources or about other animals' pain and suffering while they proceed to eat it, there is no need to worry or be concerned about "pain, suffering" or doing anything "horrible" to the animals. sorry, there is a huge gulf between humans and other "animals". ethically, we don't want to be inhumane because it degrades US, not because of any potential harm it might do to the animal. we fish (hunt whatever) because we can. that's the only justification needed. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Wolfgang wrote:
Who? (me) Oh. Actually, I'm not sure you understood who all of my pronouns referred to. Maybe I should have specified it more. Oh, and by the way, if simply finding someone who appears to agree with an a priori assumption qualifies as "doing science research" I've got some colleagues who are going to be VERY disappointed to learn that they have expended so much time and effort for so many years in doing it the hard way. It depends, but I don't need too much to not think someone's evil. I save that for special people. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
Wolfgang wrote:
But if someone Who? (me) Oh. Actually, I think I should have specified who my pronouns referred to more often because I'm not sure whether you misunderstood some stuff or not. Oh, and by the way, if simply finding someone who appears to agree with an a priori assumption qualifies as "doing science research" I've got some colleagues who are going to be VERY disappointed to learn that they have expended so much time and effort for so many years in doing it the hard way. That's not always so scientific, but it still could be enough for me not to think the researcher is evil. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
rw wrote:
wrote: Well, for me it was when you started going off about a fish's family "mourning" for it. That was way over the top, and I knew when I read it that no one would ever take you seriously. That was just a bad typo. I'm glad someone brought that to my attention. I cleared that up at http://groups.google.com/group/rec.o...af68ed8?hl=en& but unfortunately some people probably missed it. Many animals are known to suffer distress after the loss of a mate and die soon afterwards, but I wasn't making that point. |
Most Humane Way to Clean Fish
wrote in message oups.com... Wolfgang wrote: Who? (me) Oh. Actually, I'm not sure you understood who all of my pronouns referred to. Actually, if that were so, it would make two of us. Maybe I should have specified it more. Maybe. Try it some other time, and let's see what happens. Oh, and by the way, if simply finding someone who appears to agree with an a priori assumption qualifies as "doing science research" I've got some colleagues who are going to be VERY disappointed to learn that they have expended so much time and effort for so many years in doing it the hard way. It depends, but I don't need too much to not think someone's evil. I save that for special people. Well, good......you wouldn't want to squander that. Wolfgang |
Fortunately, the seafood catch healthy and humane way to much of the Pacific Northwest and Alaska seafood sustainability, especially in highly respected researchers.
|
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:43 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2006 FishingBanter